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The market is there, why not make it?

Zakk1011Zakk1011 Las Vegas, NVMember Posts: 14

Obviously, there is a LARGE constituent of players out there that want to see the old-school style of MMORPG's brought back.  Death penalty, limited fast travel, community/social interaction, adventure sandbox...no quest markers...

Essentially, an updated rehashed version of EQ1 or Asheron's Call...

WHY hasn't a publisher done this??  It seems SO LOW budget to me (relative to other titles) and people would EAT IT UP.  Sure, they wouldn't attract the masses, but the fact that they don't have to reinvent the wheel allows them to save a lot of money on production costs and, therefore, have a MUCH higher profit margin from attracting the hundreds of thousands of players (rather than millions).

How successful do you think a graphically updated EQ1, with some minor gameplay tweaks/additions, would be right now?

 

....

 

I have about 70 pages of written material outlining an entire MMORPG - classes, races, world layout, combat mechanics, skill system, advancement system, some lore (need to finish itemization and quest scripts)....

 

What do I need to do to get someone to make this?  Seriously.  I'm basically handing over a complete game concept saying "Produce this game, put it on the shelves, and make money".  Is nobody out there interested?  Does nobody out there share the passion for recreating those awesome game experiences?

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Comments

  • c0existc0exist Round Rock, TXMember Posts: 196 Uncommon
    sign me up, ill go as high as $35/month. 
  • DamonVileDamonVile Vancouver, BCMember Posts: 4,818

    Most of them are all talk. It's find to sit here with rose colored glasses on talking about how great EQ! was but when it comes time to put up or shut up ...well...they tend to do neither.

    Wishing you could relive your first mmo love is not the same thing as someone willing to go back and do it over again...knowing what they know now. Your experiences in mmos will forever keep you from ever having that first love back again.

  • Zakk1011Zakk1011 Las Vegas, NVMember Posts: 14
    Originally posted by DamonVile
    Most of them are all talk. It's find to sit here with rose colored glasses on talking about how great EQ! was but when it comes time to put up or shut up ...well...they tend to do neither. Wishing you could relive your first mmo love is not the same thing as someone willing to go back and do it over again...knowing what they know now. Your experiences in mmos will forever keep you from ever having that first love back again.

    I just simply disagree, DamonVile.  I ABSOLUTELY think it's possible to find that experience again - it's just that no game (that I've played, anyway)  has yet to facilitate it because of the game mechanics/community.

    You're telling me you wouldn't enjoy a brand new game, with different lore and quests...different things to discover (really DISCOVER, not find)...with those same people from EQ1?  I guarantee I could put it together with some coders and artists...but outside of game concept, I have no capacity unfortunately :-(

  • flizzerflizzer Manchester, NHMember Posts: 2,039 Rare
    Truth is, the people vocal on this site are a small percentage of the player base.  Would I want to play a game like EQ today?  Hell no, and I expect most players wouldn't either.  We ultimately get the games we want to play and the majority prefer WoW type games as the numbers indicate.  This doesn't mean I am a fan of WoW but numbers don't lie.  These older games are just tedious and take so long to accomplish anything. 
  • thecapitainethecapitaine West Chester, PAMember Posts: 408 Uncommon

    I look at it this way.  As a publisher you can either go with the prevailing trend and create a polished AAA themepark guaranteeing yourself ~1 million box sales and around 250k steady subscribers.  Or you can cut against the grain and throw the dice to test whether the market is there for a AAA sandbox experience like the games of yore.  I'm not saying either is more viable but until someone makes a breakthrough success on the modern sandbox field, publishers and investors are almost always going to take the safe route. 

     

    Plus, let's not overlook how poorly the sandbox community has shown up to support indie attempts to bring the sub-genre back.  Even if a AAA sandbox MMO does get made, there's no guarantee it will scratch the many very specific itches the fans all have.

     

    Edited for verbiage.

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAMember Posts: 20,742 Epic
    Originally posted by Zakk1011
    Obviously, there is a LARGE constituent of players out there that want to see the old-school style of MMORPG's brought back. 

    How do you know there is a large constituency of players who want old school games?

    I would say that if there was indeed a large group of players then there would be no question about making games like "old school games".

    I would say that the dearth of these games points to a smaller group of people interested in these games.

    Additionally, any "old school" games are probably going to come from smaller development teams who set out to specifically make these games.

    You aren't going to find large development houses taking on games that are probably not going to make their money back. That's one fast way to start needing to lay people off.

     

    Listening to your guild buddies or scanning websites  with a greater population of old school players isn't a good way to know what the general game audience wants.

     

  • Ender4Ender4 milwaukee, WIMember Posts: 2,247 Uncommon

    There is definitely a niche of gamers out there that want more old school mechanics to the game. You just have to find a company willing to aim at a niche market and most aren't. Then you have to find a company that can develop a game that is stable with fluid combat etc at the same time, something that not many have been able to do.

  • XssivXssiv Haskell, NJMember Posts: 359 Uncommon
    Originally posted by DamonVile
    Most of them are all talk. It's find to sit here with rose colored glasses on talking about how great EQ! was but when it comes time to put up or shut up ...well...they tend to do neither. Wishing you could relive your first mmo love is not the same thing as someone willing to go back and do it over again...knowing what they know now. Your experiences in mmos will forever keep you from ever having that first love back again.

    This ^^

     

    You will never recapture the magic of early MMO's for two simple reasons:

    1) The excitement and newness of being in a persistent, online world wore off for most people many years ago.   Part of the magic of the older games was the simple fact that you were 'online' with people from all over the world and it was cool.   Now, not so much.

    2) MMO's have gained an entirely new audience who could care less about community and typically don't spend much more than a month or two in any particular game. 

     

    Let's not forget the fact that MMO's are one of, if not the most expensive types of games to make and maintain.   Developers don't want to spend years making a game and build the necessary infrastructure to support it, unless it's going to translate into some serious revenue.   

    Look at EA and Blizz, they aren't developing any new MMO's, that should tell you something right there.   And until we see a niche, crowd-funded game actually make it, there's simply not much to discuss on that front. 

    Enjoy the many options we currently have.  In a few years, we'll be talking about the good old days when we had WoW, GW2, FFXIV, Rift and many other AAA quality MMO's to play. 

  • NitthNitth AustraliaMember Posts: 3,903 Uncommon


    Originally posted by Zakk1011
    Obviously, there is a LARGE constituent of players out there that want to see the old-school style of MMORPG's brought back.  Death penalty, limited fast travel, community/social interaction, adventure sandbox...no quest markers...Essentially, an updated rehashed version of EQ1 or Asheron's Call...WHY hasn't a publisher done this??  It seems SO LOW budget to me (relative to other titles) and people would EAT IT UP.  Sure, they wouldn't attract the masses, but the fact that they don't have to reinvent the wheel allows them to save a lot of money on production costs and, therefore, have a MUCH higher profit margin from attracting the hundreds of thousands of players (rather than millions).How successful do you think a graphically updated EQ1, with some minor gameplay tweaks/additions, would be right now?

    Is there? if you spend too long hanging around here you may start believing that people here are a good representation of of what the mmorpg want...

    ....or the majority just wants wow clones that make them feel good that they are "winning"

     


    I have about 70 pages of written material outlining an entire MMORPG - classes, races, world layout, combat mechanics, skill system, advancement system, some lore (need to finish itemization and quest scripts)....

     

    What do I need to do to get someone to make this?  Seriously.  I'm basically handing over a complete game concept saying "Produce this game, put it on the shelves, and make money".  Is nobody out there interested?  Does nobody out there share the passion for recreating those awesome game experiences?

    No one is going to take your ideas, Ideas are a dime a dozen.
    Companies want: Proven, cost effective high yield ventures.

    image
    TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development

  • Beoelf21Beoelf21 Atascocita, TXMember Posts: 91
    Most people want that "sense of accomplishment" back..but dont want to put the time that once put into other mmo's.  the genre is only evolving because the player base is. New technology means more ideas and ultimately a larger gap in the difference between the mmo's of old and the new titles. the good news is that most the old games that you may not be able to get over are still out there active.

    image
  • flizzerflizzer Manchester, NHMember Posts: 2,039 Rare
    I have consistently mentioned these old games are still around to be played, but, not. people want "new old games" to play. 
  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAMember Posts: 20,742 Epic
    Originally posted by flizzer
    I have consistently mentioned these old games are still around to be played, but, not. people want "new old games" to play. 

    Now this I agree with.

    At least the players looking for old school games.

  • Zakk1011Zakk1011 Las Vegas, NVMember Posts: 14

    I honestly can't believe some of the responses...

    C'mon guys.  You KNOW there is a market out there...some of them still play those old games (EQ1 still kickin, right?) and some of them speak up on forums like these and a lot of them don't speak up at all.  Hell, even MORE of them don't even realize they are part of that market because they've never been exposed to a game like this in 10+ years - people only know what they like/don't like based off what they've experienced.

    You think people played AC and EQ1 (and were addicted to it) because "being in an online world" was novel?  I highly doubt that was a significant cause for their loyalty to the game.

    No, it was because the game was inherently different.

    .....

    You;re right about companies wanting to take the "safe route" though.  I just figured that if they were guaranteed a sizeable chunk of the current market because nobody else out there is making these games, with relatively low overhead cost, they would see solid profit/revenue streams and consider it a win.

    .....

    Basically, you guys are all telling me that until a company decides to take a risk, the MMORPG community is doomed to get these WoW-clones over and over and over that we've been getting for the past 8-10 years?  Sad.

  • Superman0XSuperman0X San Jose, CAMember Posts: 1,916 Uncommon

    The answer to this is simple.... money.

     

    Making any MMO costs money (even an old school, retro throwback). Anyone that has the money to make a game like this, can choose to make a game that has a higher potential upside for the same amount of money. It just isnt a good investment... and this is where most of the money for games comes from, investors.

  • azmundaiazmundai St Louis, MOMember Posts: 1,419 Uncommon

    The only way a game like that will exist is from an indie developer that hits a magical combination.

    You have inventors, Meridian, Everquest, Muds
    You have innovators Blizzard, Bioware(there innoviation didn't work, but they brough a very different element to mmos) .. not really many others.
    Then you have copiers. Pretty much everyone else.

    Warcraft hit the market at exactly the right time so they as well are barely innovators, but they did make a unique mixture of old school and new school. The genius (and failure for the genre) of Blizzard is that they have recognized what sells and perpetuated it. Everyone else is destined for a small piece of the pie.

    Warcraft was essentially a mistake, or a lot of good fortune. The game was obviously designed as what would be called a niche market game these days. It was simply warcraft 4, online. They obviously only expected the typical 500,000 or so subs. Again where they succeeded (and failed the genre) is in recognizing the opportunity to sell millions. And executing, they are good at what they do even if a lot of us are tired of it or never liked it to begin with.

    Something like the civs online, is the only was the genre is going to see another innovator. Technically ESO could have been, but it looks like they are just making world of skyrim, so .. it's basically destined to be another swtor. It is possible for it to be more, but the economic philosophy is quite obviously to follow suit with every mmo from the past 10 years. Just like that was Blizzard's basic approach, they could get "lucky" .. but a smart person doesn't place big bets on "could".

    Innovators do something different. Warcraft was different. Yes it was similar in content, but in philosophy, it was different. For Blizzard it was mostly as simple as "this game can run on a calculator". Basically the microsoft strategy. It worked (and failed the genre in the process) .. it was also more accessible, and solo friendly. Small innovations, but innovations are often small. The size doesn't necessarily equate to the impact.

    The repop .. is the closest prayer the genre has imo. Wildstar? maybe, but I think in the end it is just going to end up being one of the better copies (nothing wrong with that really) ..

    Any new, oldschool game, will only be successful if it strikes a balance. LFD for example. LFD is better than spamming chat, but when it's x-server .. it has a different effect. In an oldschool game, you would need a convenient social tool like LFD. Ideally it wouldn't port you to an instance or place you with ppl from other servers, and maybe it would even allow for someone to queue as a leader of a group with some control over applicants to the group ... idk ... but an oldschool game with no social grouping tool is going to struggle.

    Same conversation for death penalties, etc. I really don't see a return to full on death penalties as being something that would generate enough subs to sustain a game. I am all for death penalties though, but it's all a matter of how you implement them.

    Anyway ..

    LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
    I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already :)

  • Zakk1011Zakk1011 Las Vegas, NVMember Posts: 14

    You guys are good at playing Devil's advocate.

    Who among you only wants to spend two months in a game?  Who here wants the "easy-mode" that we've been handed in MMORPG's recently?

    Even if you do, your argument that a niche game can't be successful doesn't hold water.  Look at EVE Online and EQ1 right now.

    .....

    So, instead of telling me why you don't think this will work...why don't we come up with a way to MAKE it work?  There's a lot of us here who want it.

    What do we need to do?

    The purpose of my original post was to start to develop a path towards accomplishing the goal of seeing a game like this being developed and, ultimately, successful.  Games did it back them.  They can do it now.

    What are your ideas?

  • WhiteLanternWhiteLantern Nevada, MOMember Posts: 2,732 Uncommon
    The op obviously wasn't here for the epic "mythical sandbox crowd" thread from a few months ago. Someone care to dig it up for him?

    I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil

  • AntiquatedAntiquated Member Posts: 1,411 Rare
    Originally posted by Zakk1011
    Obviously, there is a LARGE constituent of players out there that want to see the old-school style of MMORPG's brought back.  Death penalty, limited fast travel, community/social interaction, adventure sandbox...no quest markers...

    Sounds like you're projecting "the game I want" onto "all players who self-identify as 'oldskool'."

    But there's considerable disagreement over the fine details, even in that broad group. We could start a discussion and hang up on your very first talking point, for weeks.

    Make your game, promote away. God knows it's a tried-and-true set of marketing bullet points. Smed's using it right now, so is the DAoC clone project...

    But gamers will maybe look a little closer at your plans, once you get to the point of discussing specifics, and expect exact key matches to their individual locks. Don't screw it up; your audience grows a little smaller with every "set in stone" individual feature decision that you make.

    And if your basis for keeping or discarding game design feature choices rests solely on creating the anti-game 'that's themepark, I hate themepark', you're almost certainly doomed as a game designer. That's a forum approach, not game design.

  • Zakk1011Zakk1011 Las Vegas, NVMember Posts: 14
    Originally posted by azmundai


    Any new, oldschool game, will only be successful if it strikes a balance. LFD for example. LFD is better than spamming chat, but when it's x-server .. it has a different effect. In an oldschool game, you would need a convenient social tool like LFD. Ideally it wouldn't port you to an instance or place you with ppl from other servers, and maybe it would even allow for someone to queue as a leader of a group with some control over applicants to the group ... idk ... but an oldschool game with no social grouping tool is going to struggle. Same conversation for death penalties, etc. I really don't see a return to full on death penalties as being something that would generate enough subs to sustain a game. I am all for death penalties though, but it's all a matter of how you implement them. Anyway ..

    I think spamming chat was one of the best things in EQ1 and it forced social interaction.  The game HAS to be designed to be based off player interaction - facilitating it through gameplay, not forcing it through mechanics.  Just like Auction House (EQ's Bazaar) ruined a lot of games' economies.

    Death penalty - you just said it.  "I am all for..."  THAT'S IT.  Everyone wants it on some level.  Strike a balance with it....no more EZ Mode.

    .....

    It really does come down to money, unfortunately.  And this is what is wrong with today's world in general (blah blah).  Nobody just wants to make a really fun game?  They just want to make something "everyone" will want to play, in the end...pleasing no one.

    You know...that's one of the reasons why EQ1 was so successful.  The original Devs....they just made a game that THEY really wanted to play.  Why can't we do that??

  • Zakk1011Zakk1011 Las Vegas, NVMember Posts: 14
    Originally posted by Antiquated

    But gamers maybe look a little closer at your plans, once you get to the point of discussing specifics, and expect exact key matches to their individual locks. Don't screw it up; your audience grows a little smaller with every "set in stone" individual feature decision that you make.

    Of course.  But THAT is exactly what is failing the market in the first place.  Publishers/designers try to please everyone!

    It's not going to happen.  I expect people to get hung up for weeks on the details and discuss them...that's what involves them and endears them to the game (or completely drives them away).

    These games shouldn't be for everyone.  There are different perspectives on "old-school" - especially when it comes to details of game mechanics - but the overarching themes are generally agreed upon.

    .....

    Again, arguing back and forth and discussing those things won't get the game made.  What needs to happen to get a publisher to make this type of game?

  • AntiquatedAntiquated Member Posts: 1,411 Rare
    Originally posted by Zakk1011
    Originally posted by Antiquated

    But gamers maybe look a little closer at your plans, once you get to the point of discussing specifics, and expect exact key matches to their individual locks. Don't screw it up; your audience grows a little smaller with every "set in stone" individual feature decision that you make.

    Of course.  But THAT is exactly what is failing the market in the first place.  Publishers/designers try to please everyone!

    "Failing" means "generating hundreds of millions of dollars".

    So you're making the next starvault indy title then?

  • AntiquatedAntiquated Member Posts: 1,411 Rare
    Originally posted by Zakk1011
    Again, arguing back and forth and discussing those things won't get the game made.  What needs to happen to get a publisher to make this type of game?

    Working demo, minimum.

    After that, you're going to need some marketers who have experience selling to a publisher.

    The "trade show" stage is in fact where the most no-publisher games go to die.

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member Posts: 16,738 Epic
    Originally posted by Zakk1011
    Obviously, there is a LARGE constituent of players out there that want to see the old-school style of MMORPG's brought back.  Death penalty, limited fast travel, community/social interaction, adventure sandbox...no quest markers... Essentially, an updated rehashed version of EQ1 or Asheron's Call... WHY hasn't a publisher done this??  It seems SO LOW budget to me (relative to other titles) and people would EAT IT UP.  Sure, they wouldn't attract the masses, but the fact that they don't have to reinvent the wheel allows them to save a lot of money on production costs and, therefore, have a MUCH higher profit margin from attracting the hundreds of thousands of players (rather than millions). How successful do you think a graphically updated EQ1, with some minor gameplay tweaks/additions, would be right now?   ....   I have about 70 pages of written material outlining an entire MMORPG - classes, races, world layout, combat mechanics, skill system, advancement system, some lore (need to finish itemization and quest scripts)....   What do I need to do to get someone to make this?  Seriously.  I'm basically handing over a complete game concept saying "Produce this game, put it on the shelves, and make money".  Is nobody out there interested?  Does nobody out there share the passion for recreating those awesome game experiences?

    What exactly makes it low budget?  The main way to reduce the budget necessary to make an MMORPG is lower quality artwork and less volume of artwork.  Likewise, you can get some considerable savings out of lower quality and less volume of audio, and of game content.  If you want graphics to match the latest AAA MMORPGs, then you need a budget to match them.

    As for your 70 page outline of a game, there are only two ways that your game could ever become a reality:

    1)  you make it yourself, or

    2)  you get rich and hire others to make it.

    Everyone in the world who is capable of making a game and inclined to do so has ideas of his own that he likes better than your ideas.  That's why his ideas are his ideas and your ideas are not his ideas.  So no, no one in a position to do anything about it cares about your ideas for a new game.

    And no, don't delude yourself about handing over a complete game.  Unless you use such ridiculously small print as to require a magnifying glass to read it, 70 pages is really only enough space to sketch a broad outline without that many details filled in.

    Half of the work of making a game is deciding exactly how you want every single little detail in the game to work.  (The other half is optimizing, debugging, and otherwise polishing it.)  Actually trying to code it up forces you to fill in all of the minute details that you don't even realize today would be necessary in order to make your game a reality.  And those details massively overwhelm in quantity what you've written.

  • rounnerrounner CanberraMember Posts: 637 Uncommon

    I'd only get that up till 2am sense of excitement back with stuff like this:

    Destructible terrain with proper physics

    Combination of tab target and hit box combat

    World events on a small and global scale that truly change things (eg towns invaded and destroyed don't just magically reset)

    NPC's that dont just mill about for no reason and not help each other out

    Players can build their own houses and dungeons and hire guards or summon undead servants, or control monsters etc

    System for scripting those hirelings to guard, craft, trade and protect you when you are logged off etc

     

     

    You get my point excitement is from something new not nostalgia.

  • VrikaVrika FinlandMember Posts: 3,462 Rare

    The devs making MMOs should target their product to people who complain about MMOs?

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