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Originally posted by aspekx first to be clear, there are significant differences in the mmorpg's from 10-15 years back (or more). so i am not belittling those changes. however, its interesting to note that a number of us older gamers can look back and think: my gahd, what was i thinking camping that spawn all day. the sad truth, that i am coming to accept, is that neurologically speaking its becoming more and more evident that the brain's ability to adapt to change as we age does diminish and it does diminish noticeably. im afraid that neurologically speaking some of us are simply getting older. and i mean that sincerely, not casting any aspersions. but the facts are that as you age your neuronal pathways become less and less "flexible" in forming new connections or altering paths. note, this is not about intelligence or the ability to process information. it seems that in some ways its easier when you are older. but the ability to form new paths or adapt older ones in new ways is affected (even if you are doing Sudoku every morning). this is often why older folks are stereotypically seen as not embracing change. neurologically, its just harder. so those things we've enjoyed in the past seem more pleasurable because in a sense they really are more pleasurable. and the reason is that the brain is not having to overcome an increasingly difficult hurdle towards change. this doesn't mean that everyone over 40 can't change or adapt. but it does mean that it is decreasing over time.
Sorry, gotta disagree, its absolutely NOT the lack of ability to 'adapt' its simple as so many have pointed out, games are CRAP now. they are meant to hit you like a brick FAST, push you into the item shop as quick as possible, then just as quick a week or so later, boot you right back out. Games are empty, shallow, have nothing to 'keep' you there once your done the 'main bit you saw on that preview' part. truth is, games now days are like all other things, hit the biggest pool of people, get the most you can from them, in the shortest amount of time.
Trust me, if it was the ability or inability to 'adapt' we 'old fart gamers' would not be blowing past, destroying(And i mean utterly destroying) the game while many of the 'pro gamer' 15 yr olds sit there with their jaws on the floor as we blast though content THEY thought was difficult. We HAVE adapted. Truth is, we have so much LESS to adapt to now, so much LESS to learn, and so much LESS to have to figure out. Adapting doesn't mean we have to like this new shallow empty experience. We expect MORE. We get less.
Originally posted by Quirhid Originally posted by FinalFikus Originally posted by Quirhid Originally posted by FinalFikus Originally posted by Quirhid
Ultimately, no shit.
Did you read where I said I was looking for opinions? Did you choose to ignore that part because "ultimately" it's subjective. I guess you could say a 5 year old on guitar hero is better than Clapton too. But the readers are not so damn dumb that they cant make up their own minds. So let them. Lets hear the examples. I know it subjective.
Is it possible to give a direct answer? Geez.
BTW I know its just opinions. OK? Its subjective. We knew that on page 1. Why respond at all?
Because in the end no matter how much you try to quantify and rationalize your choices, people will make up their own mind.
There are a ton of real life examples where quantifying your choices leads nowhere. Do you honestly think the one with the fastest response time, the greatest processing power and the longest list of features comes always on top?
Some products may simply be holistically better or hit the right spot.
Again, no shit. If it's so pointless, don't respond. I asked a simple question. The answer is simple to give. Just an opinion. If you don't want to join the conversation, why butt in?
You don't have any examples. See, easy.
If you expect only the people who don't think it's pointless to reply, how will you know if it is pointless or not?
If you started a discussion about how the universe is either geo- or heliocentric, should I refrain from pointing out that both are wrong?
I didn't start a discussion. I asked a simple question. Should I refrain from pointing out you have yet to give examples of how newer games are better than older in your opinion.
You are free to point out how utterly pointless it is to ask, but at least have the common courtesy of answering the question.
Just a question. Pretty simple. You can even laugh at me the whole time, but at least answer.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
Originally posted by grimgryphon Originally posted by AlBQuirky Why even post? Because he has an opinion, just like you. Next.
Originally posted by nariusseldon Originally posted by FinalFikus
Things were less convenient in the past. True or false.
Games were more art and less math in the past.
Most of the people I know in real life that have played the older games, say the older games were better as well. I don't really know anyone who is still playing mmorpgs.
"Things were less convenient in the past" True. That is one good reason why older games are worse for me.
"Games were more art and less math in teh past" ... well that is arguable. What is art? I would say WoW has better art design in the visual department than the "old" MMOs.
I say old games were worse. It is just subjective.
I like you. You can answer a question. Quick and to the point.
Originally posted by AntiquatedOriginally posted by AlBQuirkyOriginally posted by AntiquatedOriginally posted by ArglebargleOriginally posted by worldalphaPeople are generally nostalgic. That feeling about games is no different. Everything was bigger, badder, more superior when I was a kid, is a common feeling that isn't always based on reality.
Unlike MMOs, I rarely listen to one artist in music at any one time. I listen to a lot of different artists. Maybe that separates me from many players more than my desire to play in just one living, breathing, well thought out world.
The analogy fails when you compare the many genres of music to ONE genre of computer games. Like music, there are good heavy metal bands and bad ones. Just because a band is heavy metal does not mean I automatically like them. Music is not good, for me, just because it is old(er).
However, there is a part of music that connects points in our life. Couples that have "our song" that defines some dramatic moment in their lives, for example. Music, many times, can trigger good (or bad) memories. Smells have that effect, too. I do not know if games have that affect. Maybe they do?
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by Antiquated Originally posted by laserit Top 40 Pop anything sucks ass. Always has and it always will, MMOs included
Theeeeere it is!
More Forum Cool Points in anti-popularity. Always. Why the biggest selling video games, movies, music, anything--universal disdain from the hipsters.
To put it in todays terms, there is a difference between lets say Eminem and Miley Cyrus. 30 years from now they will still talk about Eminem... Miley???? not so much.
In games, just like music there are a few classic's that will be talked about over generations and then there is the "Here today gone tomorrow" crowd.
"Universal disdain from the hipster"??? Is that cool speak or something?
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
Even though I owned Nintendo when it was first released, I skipped the rpg games. I later would discover rpgs through Playstation. FF7 being my first RPG besided paper and table top. I loved it! It was such a good balance between story, gaming, and everything that pulled at heart strings for a rpg game.
I never did play the originals until recently. My next game will be WoW (vanilla) at release. I was hooked. I quit and tried so many other games (have end game characters everywhere). Nothing filled the gap FF7 has going for it. I know they are different beasts, which is why I have a current F2P mmorpg I play just for "progress" and watching numbers get bigger and doing something game related.
I have tried all the other games on disc. Chrono trigger, Skyrim, etc... meh. They are different but none are delivering that beautiful balance. Every one is in the game to over do violence, graphics etc. It is like movies today, all graphics no brains.
I recently installed modulators and replaying old snes adn nes titles! WOW! IT is insane! You can even see the roots of theme park gaming in this level. I love Final Fantasy 2, It is AMAZING and has key elements that are like in 7. I played final fantasy 6, it is ok. Super theme parked out and a great example of what happens when you have success and keep trying to rake in money before redoing the drawing board (FF7). FF6 has free class building, any class can build whatever, mele can have healing spells etc. The story is just poor excuses to move one place to another. Sudenly in a desert, to suddenly in a rich Operah house. Not to mention the most displaced mobs ever. It is just a huge "look what we can do so we did it". This will re-appear in Kingdom of hearts etc...the whoring out of the title in bad projects. Now look at FF2:
Each class unique, magic caster hace super sucky mele, the progress is logical and the transitions interesting. The emotions, although presented in that japanese "he looked at me *turns red* we should get married" sort of style, does happen to slow it down and do some pretty adult themed and serious dialog. In 6 it is very much like Chrono Trigger dialog: "teehee you so silly"...
Fast forward to today the same pattern exists. Good start in a franchise ruined by greed and whored out business. The question today is if games can do what FF did, and restart on a new platform with an epic title that will blow you away before being re whored out again... Perhaps STar Citizen. Perhaps it is when gaming goes google glasses 3D. PErhaps never...Until then enjoy our sad sad sad world of mediocre greed games.
Originally posted by FinalFikus Originally posted by Quirhid Originally posted by FinalFikus
OP wasn't the one trying to quantify these games, was he? He was talking about a neurological phenomenon and proposing that this had a connection with the general discontent among many veteran players.
I explained how any attempts to quantify "quality" in these games is pretty much futile, so no I am not going to try and quantify them.
I know why I don't like them (and yes I've tried), but there is no way to measure how much and why exactly. It is entirely subjective.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
I joined the 40+ club a few years back.
I've noticed that the reason why games I played 15 years ago seem so different than the games of today is mostly due to the fact that I myself am so different, today, compared to 15 years ago.
I disagree with the OP. I think older games were better because they had to deal with memory limitations so it wasn't all about the graphics, they pumped up the story. Now it's all about the graphics and they could really care less about the story of the game. Modern games are about making money by selling the most popular rubbish, early games were about making a fun game that was going out to a way smaller audience than we have today.
Kind of like how most modern MMO's are just pumped out copies with good graphics, but lacking in substance.
Originally posted by QuirhidMusic is a poor metaphor since the mere repeated exposure (repeated listening) has been shown to make you like a song or artist more.
I recall hearing songs on the radio so often that I stopped liking them. (The theme song from "Friends" comes to mind here...)
Originally posted by AlBQuirky Originally posted by Quirhid Music is a poor metaphor since the mere repeated exposure (repeated listening) has been shown to make you like a song or artist more.
I recall hearing songs on the radio so often that I stopped liking them. (The theme song from "Friends" comes to mind here...)
Titanic theme. And anything by Whitney Houston.
Musak just loved 'em, 40 times a day, each. I wonder if there was an unexplained upswing of intra-office stabbings during that period.
Originally posted by Betakodo I disagree with the OP. I think older games were better because they had to deal with memory limitations so it wasn't all about the graphics, they pumped up the story. Now it's all about the graphics and they could really care less about the story of the game. Modern games are about making money by selling the most popular rubbish, early games were about making a fun game that was going out to a way smaller audience than we have today. Kind of like how most modern MMO's are just pumped out copies with good graphics, but lacking in substance.
MMOs got caught in the trap of trying to look as good as solo games. Originally no one cared they were a step behind, but in order to lure in the solo crowd graphics became king. This resulted in a stripped down approach, taking away starter areas or making them quite small and so on. Then they changed open worlds into rat runs.
The audience size was certainly a factor, but it was also who they were aiming at. When they wanted to expand into the solo market, they had to make their games more solo. Now they are pandering to the values of the social media crowd. EQNext had a question on should characters be account based, that sort of question comes from wanting to make Facebook and Twitter uses feel at home. The impact on MMO gaming of going for social media types will be quite different from when they chased the solos. That was a clash of gaming ethos, now they are chasing those who have no gaming ethos. But this new market already has a cash shop mentality bedded in, so you can expect even more commercialisation.
Buying top level characters and gear (like in EQ2) is where MMOs are now headed.
You received 25 Agrees. You're posting some good content. Great!
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Now Doesn't That Make You Feel All Warm And Fuzzy? :P
The above is my personal opinion. Anyone displaying a view contrary to my opinion is obviously WRONG and should STHU. (neener neener)
-The MMO Forum Community
The idea that people become less capable of adapting and get stuck in their ways as they get older is a misconception. Psychologies and researchers have known it's a misconception since the mid twentieth century. From just one study (there are many others that come to the same conclusions):http://news.medill.northwestern.edu/chicago/news.aspx?id=198874
...shows that improving cognitive functioning in seniors actually changes an aspect of their personality, namely openness to experience...'The common assumption about personality is that it is hard-wired and wont change, but this study contradicts that quite strongly,' said Brent Roberts, professor in the department of psychology at the University of Illnois at Urbana-Champaign and co-author of study.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Originally posted by Scot
yeah .. that is probably where MMOs are going to go. It is not a "trap" though. That is how markets work.
It is really too bad (for me). I like solo-centric MMOs much more than "social media" MMOs. The good news is that i have tons of alternatives in entertainment so if all MMOs go facebook, i will just move on (not that i am not used to moving on from specific games anyway).
Originally posted by Hothlove Oh no not old everquest, 5 minutes to zone, stuttering sound and everything camped.
Yeah .. very horrible game (to me).
I wouldn't take a game designed like that with a ten foot pole in the future.
Originally posted by thecapitaine MMOs seem better because they were novel experiences for many of us and were born at a time when the bounds of the internet were measurably closer, when the number of offerings was far smaller, when social media was virtually non-existent, and before gaming (particularly console gaming) exploded into what it is now. For me it's like asking why haven't we had another proper Woodstock (despite later attempts) to recapture that experience. Sure, we still have great musicians, plenty of motivated young people, and ample venues but having all the parts just isn't enough to reproduce that event. I can't emphasize enough how often this or very similar questions are posed in every artistic genre we humans are capable of. You cannot talk movies, television, music, literature, theater, art, dance, or journalism without running into it. There will always be a group of "veterans" who likely got their first or early exposure at a time they now consider to be the apex of the form, the high point that all subsequent efforts fail to reach. It's such a common occurrence and transcends so many bounds that we have to start questioning its validity and whether it's just a basic part of human existence. Either across the board, in nearly every facet of human endeavor, we are simply becoming less talented, less inspired, less capable and discerning. Or, there's a strong predilection towards mythologizing what came before despite our best efforts at seeing things clearly. I'm greatly inclined to believe it's the latter.
This....I fall into the same thing all the time but when i think clearly, I'm just living in the past, rose tinted glass is what people call it.
Originally posted by nariusseldon Originally posted by Hothlove Oh no not old everquest, 5 minutes to zone, stuttering sound and everything camped.
You played that game for a year, bud. People DO NOT stick around that long if they are not enjoying themselves. So you don't get to say you thought that EQ was a "horrible" game.
Life is much more rewarding when you're honest with the people you interact with and more importantly, honest with yourself.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
In essence much of this argument at its core is not about the capacity for the older gamer to adapt to 'advancement' in the industry or whether the genre itself has advanced at all. What it really comes down to is whether you support the ongoing argument that engaged criticism of any kind toward art/architecture/music is simply subjective.
An art critic who has an established eye for detail, an understanding of art history and an academic study of art criticism either does or does not have the ability to place a particular art piece in the context of the art world in this argument.
How do we judge MMORPGS in terms of their existence as a gaming world, place in gaming history, and their relationship to the business of gaming? There are small and large questions here but I don't think they are above a critical view. Just labeling something as a subjective experience seems to cut off all discussion though. If you do engage in some critical analysis it stands to reason that the older gamer who has played and experienced these games might have some keen insight into their comparison. Simply saying that they have rose colored glasses shuts off all discussion from anyone who was actually around to play those games.
Nostalgia is sometimes a factor, surely, but in a structured discussion there can also be some critical comparison.
(Just rambling about the way this discussion is running really, carry on)
Originally posted by aspekxwhy older games seem better...
*proudly (re-)playing FFE currently* :P
Originally posted by Holophonist May I ask why we should take this "it's all nostalgia" argument seriously when in every other facet of my life my opinion has grown and changed? I don't miss power rangers. My favorite show of all time, Breaking Bad, just ended. I don't listen to alt rock anymore. My favorite band, Between the Buried and Me, is still around. Why is it only videogames, and in particular MMORPGs that make me miss the old times?
Anybody? I find it hard to believe that my opinions are constantly changing about almost everything else in my life aside from video games, particularly MMORPGs, and it 's because of nostalgia. What about nostalgia for everything else?