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Target based combat ? Really?

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  • BMBenderBMBender Nowhere, NCPosts: 568Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Vayman
    Originally posted by Tuchaka
    sad thing about this game is they are basically jamming a great sandbox into  a theme park skin with only lip service being played to actual sandbox ideas and then saying its the best of both worlds which is why i am not gonna play it.

    I think I'm with you on that. I love the single player games of the genre. But this MMO just isn't getting me excited. There really is no "best of both worlds" when mixing sandbox and themepark. Any ingredient from one pretty much ruins the flavor of the other.

    funny thing about mixing and matching contrary play styles;  you'd probably get more market share to JUST PICK ONE ALREADY, instead of offering something that doesn't really please any of em.  But no some peoples kids keep banging their heads trying to cram it all together then wonder why the player base bleeds away shortly after.  This movie just gets painful to watch over and over.

    image
  • MukeMuke BredaPosts: 2,172Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by SNAFUdamus

    What is going to make this game different  than every other MMO out there. I mean, we now have classes in a game they promised would be skill based.

    Now I hear that the combat will be target based and not based on AIMING? Really, so this is just another in a VERY long line of MMOs where all you do in combat is spam the TAB KEY, find a target then SPAM skill keys until the target is dead? in 2013 copying other MMOs is STILL all game companies know how to do?

    What happened to aiming?

    What happened to ACTIVE BLOCKING?

     

     

    What is different about ESO now? It looks to me like it is just another WoW, SWToR, or pick what ever garden variety game that requires zero skill to play.

    The more I read about the game the more disheartened with it I become.

    The fact that you compare every game to WOW shows enough about your MMO experience, which obviously is very limited and only consists to the world..............of Warcraft,

    There are successful games out there with Tab targeting, if they made it like in other Elder Scrolls games you would be ocmplaining about aimbots like in certain other mmo-type games like PS2.

     

    "going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"

  • SNAFUdamusSNAFUdamus Ballston Spa, NYPosts: 56Member
    Originally posted by iJustWant

    I heard on Fox News that someone said that they overheard someone else say that they think some people say the sky is falling.

     

    Therefore, ESO must have tab targeting, and is doomed to fail.

     

    Who said anything about it failing, OR the skyrim falling? You guys on these forums just have no clue how to have a conversation do you? Its just troll or be trolled eh?

  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Talahasee, FLPosts: 2,556Member
    Originally posted by Ender4

    Well all of the aiming combat MMOs have been pretty bad and the combat systems haven't really worked all that well once you really dig into them.

    Darkfall would beg to differ.

     

    The real reason though, is this game has been through development hell and so many different revisions and direction changes. This one looks like a train wreck.

  • iJustWantiJustWant Somewhere, WAPosts: 81Member
    Originally posted by SNAFUdamus
    Originally posted by iJustWant

    I heard on Fox News that someone said that they overheard someone else say that they think some people say the sky is falling.

     

    Therefore, ESO must have tab targeting, and is doomed to fail.

     

    Who said anything about it failing, OR the skyrim falling? You guys on these forums just have no clue how to have a conversation do you? Its just troll or be trolled eh?

     

    Thanks for lumping me into the "you guys on these forums" and "troll or be trolled" groups. Though my comment was heavy on Sarcasm, it was no personal attack on you.

     

    By the way, this is a conversation; you said something, and folks are responding. You just seem to dislike the course of the conversation.

    image
  • Ender4Ender4 milwaukee, WIPosts: 2,253Member


    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by Ender4 Well all of the aiming combat MMOs have been pretty bad and the combat systems haven't really worked all that well once you really dig into them.
    Darkfall would beg to differ.

     

    The real reason though, is this game has been through development hell and so many different revisions and direction changes. This one looks like a train wreck.


    Wait, DF changed to tag targeting? This was one of the ones I was talking about where the game itself is pretty bad. Tera has an ok game behind it but the combat mechanics simply don't work very well. AOC might as well be tab targeting outside of playing dance dance revolution when you want to do a special move. GW2 has been about the most successful and they still have tab targeting, they just layered it with aiming and dodging.

  • keithiankeithian Los Angeles, CAPosts: 3,042Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by Ender4

    Well all of the aiming combat MMOs have been pretty bad and the combat systems haven't really worked all that well once you really dig into them.

    Darkfall would beg to differ.

     

    The real reason though, is this game has been through development hell and so many different revisions and direction changes. This one looks like a train wreck.

    When you make comments like "this one looks like a train wreck"  and 'development hell" which pretty much is the opposite of what I've read from leaked beta's and those that played the game at the conventions....both gaming outlets and everyday people......and that they seem to be listening to the feedback from the people in beta...does it not make some of these comments look kinda hollow? I mean its not swaying my opinion at all.  Maybe I misunderstood what you wrote and you meant Darkfall, because that game completely failed due to its development hell and targeting a niche crowd and thank god this game isn't following in any shape or form to that pile of crap.

    There Is Always Hope!

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Houston, TXPosts: 5,348Member
    Originally posted by keithian
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by Ender4

    Well all of the aiming combat MMOs have been pretty bad and the combat systems haven't really worked all that well once you really dig into them.

    Darkfall would beg to differ.

     

    The real reason though, is this game has been through development hell and so many different revisions and direction changes. This one looks like a train wreck.

    When you make comments like "this one looks like a train wreck"  and 'development hell" which pretty much is the opposite of what I've read from leaked beta's and those that played the game at the conventions....both gaming outlets and everyday people......and that they seem to be listening to the feedback from the people in beta...does it not make some of these comments look kinda hollow? I mean its not swaying my opinion at all.  Maybe I misunderstood what you wrote and you meant Darkfall, because that game completely failed due to its development hell and targeting a niche crowd and thank god this game isn't following in any shape or form to that pile of crap.

     I think we would all be better served if we were more honest about this discussion.

    [mod edit]

    Correlation does not imply causation

  • jdlamson75jdlamson75 Jacksonville, FLPosts: 984Member Uncommon

    "I haven't played this, and this is what I've heard about, and it makes me upset." - OP

     

    Worry not, cheekums.  There's still aiming.  And I'm pretty sure all games are target based.  What, exactly, are you aiming at, if not your target?

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Houston, TXPosts: 5,348Member
    Originally posted by jdlamson75

    "I haven't played this, and this is what I've heard about, and it makes me upset." - OP

     

    Worry not, cheekums.  There's still aiming.  And I'm pretty sure all games are target based.  What, exactly, are you aiming at, if not your target?

    'there's still aiming'

          There wasn't when during at least the first few month after they annocued it. in fact, they were explicitly asked and they explicitly said no. Now they might have changed.

     

    'pretty sure all games are target based'

        Not MMOs. most are tab target

    Correlation does not imply causation

  • keithiankeithian Los Angeles, CAPosts: 3,042Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by SEANMCAD
    Originally posted by keithian
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by Ender4

    Well all of the aiming combat MMOs have been pretty bad and the combat systems haven't really worked all that well once you really dig into them.

    Darkfall would beg to differ.

     

    The real reason though, is this game has been through development hell and so many different revisions and direction changes. This one looks like a train wreck.

    When you make comments like "this one looks like a train wreck"  and 'development hell" which pretty much is the opposite of what I've read from leaked beta's and those that played the game at the conventions....both gaming outlets and everyday people......and that they seem to be listening to the feedback from the people in beta...does it not make some of these comments look kinda hollow? I mean its not swaying my opinion at all.  Maybe I misunderstood what you wrote and you meant Darkfall, because that game completely failed due to its development hell and targeting a niche crowd and thank god this game isn't following in any shape or form to that pile of crap.

     I think we would all be better served if we were more honest about this discussion.

    I don't think anyone with an IQ over 2 thinks that the reason Darkfall isn't doing that well is got anything at all whatsoever to do with its aiming combat and what I don't understand is why someone would try to suggest that it was.

    First of all, you don't need to insult people personally discussing IQ if you don't agree with something. Second, the reference was more the irony of Davisflight using Darkfall as a shining aiming example followed by the words Development Hell and Revisions and Changes when that same game was plagued by just that despite the combat reference. I am completely aware the aiming wasn't why Darkfall failed. It was just the irony of the two sentences side by side...get it now?

    There Is Always Hope!

  • Lord.BachusLord.Bachus Den HelderPosts: 9,065Member Uncommon
    Welcome to trade offs and 200 to 300 characters and even more NPC on the same screen...

    Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)

  • goldtoofgoldtoof leedsPosts: 337Member
    it doesn't matter what style of combat is used. It could be real time like chivalry, semi tab like gw2 or full tab like wow.

    What matters is that the combat is fun and polished.
  • PyukPyuk Eugene, ORPosts: 691Member Uncommon
    BECAUSE WoW DOES IT, THAT'S WHY! ESO is the next SWTOR, guaranteed. Makes me sad.

    I make spreadsheets at work - I don't want to make them for the games I play.

  • deakondeakon birminghamPosts: 583Member

    I cant believe people are comparing teso's projectile combat to chivalry (small instances) and firefall (instant hit bullets).

    The system ZoS is using is a happy middle ground, as it would get frustrating for lots of ranged players when up against moving targets, its still real time action combat, but there's a soft lock, which is basically the same as how mass effect 1/2/3 did it with their slower projectiles (and that's a sp game), you still have to aim regardless of if you have someone tab targeted or not, you still have to block/interrupt/dodge at the right time etc, just means your less likely to get screwed by lag

  • SavageHorizonSavageHorizon ParisPosts: 2,073Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by DMKano
    Originally posted by tom_gore
    Because it looks like only SOE can make FPS mechanics work in an MMO (and Aventurine, sort of).

    You are forgetting about Firefall and Defiance.

     

    And let's not forget The Chronicles Of The Spellborn.

    No stats on gear and real aiming in real time.

    Bring this game back please.

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  • aspekxaspekx Brandon, FLPosts: 2,167Member

    ya soft-tab targeting for players and hard-tab targeting for mobs. if they shoot at you you cannot dodge or hide behind anything as the missile will go around corners if it has to in order to hit you.

     

    i am more disappointed with this game as time goes on. usually its the opposite for me.

    "There are at least two kinds of games.
    One could be called finite, the other infinite.
    A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
    an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
    Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse

  • XAPKenXAPKen Northwest, INPosts: 4,917Member Uncommon
    For anyone who has seen it in action, does this system sound a lot like what DDO uses for projectile combat?

    Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now turned Amateur Game Developer.  I don't Forum PVP.  If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident.  Realm Lords 2 on MMORPG.com
  • ryacualryacual Mount Vernon, OHPosts: 1Member

    I'm not sure what you expect. This game is on consoles too. How can you have no assisted targeting when using a controller. In pvp that would be a huge disadvantage to someone without. Besides it doesn't seem that big of a deal. If it was true aiming everyone would probably never be an archer because they would miss so much when they lag for a spit second or someone simply moves. some games you just take off full speed so you cant lead a still person.  its still a game its not real life so calm down. Having the reticle close sounds exactly like I don't know maybe every COD game. Look you can quick snipe with a bow. No skill so what. Not everyone is interested in lame pvp combat in mmos. It has potential to be fun with blocking but its not going to be skyrim online. I don't even think that was true aiming. Hold button longer and you kill it. Besides tabbing is probably better because you have no peripheral vision on a monitor.  Tabbing is an alternate to turning your head really fast. If you don't like it don't play it. Soft lock = good, arrows bend around objects and corners = bad. or auto hit = bad. It doesn't seem like a big deal unless they have some fully automatic daedric xbow of doom.

    If you can't beat the pesky archers and their tab aim then join them or run really really close with a battle axe. Cheer up the mmo community needs this game to succeed. the last decent mmo was uo...so we are lookin at 15 years of mediocrity and wow clones. and whoever said positioning is key is correct. if you cant beat them then hide behind something. Id imagine that if they cannot see you they cannot target you. do aoe spells need a target?

  • goldtoofgoldtoof leedsPosts: 337Member
    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus
    Welcome to trade offs and 200 to 300 characters and even more NPC on the same screen...

    but thats not true is it

    planetside and darkfall are real time

    rift & swtor are tab target

    tsw & gw2 are tab target but hide it

    which of those allow the most players on screen and have the biggest battles?

     

  • deakondeakon birminghamPosts: 583Member
    Originally posted by goldtoof
    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus
    Welcome to trade offs and 200 to 300 characters and even more NPC on the same screen...

    but thats not true is it

    planetside and darkfall are real time

    rift & swtor are tab target

    tsw & gw2 are tab target but hide it

    which of those allow the most players on screen and have the biggest battles?

     

     

     

    Bullets are easier to do though (especially in games where the combat is 99% ranged) as they hit pretty much instantly and don't need to rely on realistic physics, or need anywhere near the accuracy (leading shots etc), the slower the projectile moves the harder it is to hit a target that can move, once you add latency to that your looking at a very frustrating time for a lot of ranged players

  • irnbru69irnbru69 perthPosts: 68Member Uncommon
    RaiderZ has real aiming, so does fallen earth.. =/
  • goldtoofgoldtoof leedsPosts: 337Member
    Originally posted by deakon
    Originally posted by goldtoof
    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus
    Welcome to trade offs and 200 to 300 characters and even more NPC on the same screen...

    but thats not true is it

    planetside and darkfall are real time

    rift & swtor are tab target

    tsw & gw2 are tab target but hide it

    which of those allow the most players on screen and have the biggest battles?

     

     

     

    Bullets are easier to do though (especially in games where the combat is 99% ranged) as they hit pretty much instantly and don't need to rely on realistic physics, or need anywhere near the accuracy (leading shots etc), the slower the projectile moves the harder it is to hit a target that can move, once you add latency to that your looking at a very frustrating time for a lot of ranged players

    tab target is decided at the moment you press the button, that slow fireball will hit the target regardless - hence people shooting them backwards and stuff in games like wow.  There is no projectile to follow in a tab target game, there is no collision detection, they just need to animate its journey.

    The projectiles in PS2 and darkfall are not instantaneous, the have a travel time and a parabolic curve.

  • VidirVidir GothenburgPosts: 944Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by SNAFUdamus

    What is going to make this game different  than every other MMO out there. I mean, we now have classes in a game they promised would be skill based.

    Now I hear that the combat will be target based and not based on AIMING? Really, so this is just another in a VERY long line of MMOs where all you do in combat is spam the TAB KEY, find a target then SPAM skill keys until the target is dead? in 2013 copying other MMOs is STILL all game companies know how to do?

    What happened to aiming?

    What happened to ACTIVE BLOCKING?

     

     

    What is different about ESO now? It looks to me like it is just another WoW, SWToR, or pick what ever garden variety game that requires zero skill to play.

    The more I read about the game the more disheartened with it I become.

    Some people like the old style targetting in mmo's. I cant see how aiming makes mmo's better, it seem more like a fps then.

    Active blocking has allways been ther but in a different form you used a skill to block an attack from a foe.

    I would rather keep the old style than fusing the mmorpg's with fps.

     

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