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[Column] Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn: Money, It’s a Drag

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  • vandal5627vandal5627 Jersey City, NJPosts: 586Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by funkinX
    Originally posted by Foomerang

     


    Originally posted by funkinX
     
    This contradicts itself if you think about it. The game is only a month old. There are "no gil fountains" (debatable), but how do MOST people make gil? Leveling up. And when do they they level up? When they first get the game. The first month of the game has thousands of people earning 200-300k gil just by questing. It's later in the game that the supposed lack of gil fountains hurts people, once they blow that 200-300k. What do they typically spend that gil on? Pretty much the only things to spend gil on: teleporting, repairs, consumables, and crafted gear.

     

    Apply all that knowledge, and it makes sense how 600ish people out of millions could amass a lot of gil by focusing purely on crafting and gathering.


     

    Not really since we are not talking about a handful of players cornering a market. we're taking about thousands of players paying over a million gil for a single item.

     

    That is not accurate. Thousands of people weren't suspended and had their accounts returned. SE gave us this number, it was 568 accounts. Many more accounts were banned out-right because they were actually found guilty of RMT-activity, but these 568 accounts were found innocent and still had their gil /100.

    Less than 600 people out of millions are being targeted for gil removal. I'm not saying all the gil they received was legit, obviously people bought gil and then bought at least some their stuff. But assuming that thousands of people are dealing with this is not accurate, because we have been told otherwise. This is a relatively small group of people who worked harder at making gil than most, while most people focused on combat-class leveling and then spending their gil on gearing up. It's not a difficult concept. And it's not unreasonable to assume that at least some of those people earned a lot of their gil legitimately and don't deserve to be blanket punished with everyone else.

    Noone is doubting the ones that made the money legitly, it's the large amount of gil that was circulating due to this  that allowed people to sell at over inflated prices because the people were willing and able to buy those items at insanely overinflated prices.  If this wasnt the case, earning money legitly wouldn't have been in the millions but in the thousands or hundreds of thousansds.  By removing this large amount of gil, the gil value is increased.

  • DuffMcDDuffMcD Jersey City, NJPosts: 14Member
    I blame the lack of housing prices for the excessive RMT. If people knew for a fact they only need a few hundred K gil for a small house and several hundred K gil for a large house there would not be any need or greed for gil at time of housing release. This uncertainty leaves crafters and others who are into the game aspects beyond dungeon grinding with too much anticipation of something beyond what they currently have obtained. For some having full Darklight armor and relic weapon first are goals while for others having the first pick of the largest housing and in the prime location are.
  • DuffMcDDuffMcD Jersey City, NJPosts: 14Member
    Forgot to put the K in the hypothetical prices in my post lol
  • funkinXfunkinX San Francisco, CAPosts: 5Member
    Originally posted by Foomerang

     


    Originally posted by funkinX

    Originally posted by Foomerang  

    Originally posted by funkinX   This contradicts itself if you think about it. The game is only a month old. There are "no gil fountains" (debatable), but how do MOST people make gil? Leveling up. And when do they they level up? When they first get the game. The first month of the game has thousands of people earning 200-300k gil just by questing. It's later in the game that the supposed lack of gil fountains hurts people, once they blow that 200-300k. What do they typically spend that gil on? Pretty much the only things to spend gil on: teleporting, repairs, consumables, and crafted gear.   Apply all that knowledge, and it makes sense how 600ish people out of millions could amass a lot of gil by focusing purely on crafting and gathering.
      Not really since we are not talking about a handful of players cornering a market. we're taking about thousands of players paying over a million gil for a single item.
     

     

    That is not accurate. Thousands of people weren't suspended and had their accounts returned. SE gave us this number, it was 568 accounts. Many more accounts were banned out-right because they were actually found guilty of RMT-activity, but these 568 accounts were found innocent and still had their gil /100.

    Less than 600 people out of millions are being targeted for gil removal. I'm not saying all the gil they received was legit, obviously people bought gil and then bought at least some their stuff. But assuming that thousands of people are dealing with this is not accurate, because we have been told otherwise. This is a relatively small group of people who worked harder at making gil than most, while most people focused on combat-class leveling and then spending their gil on gearing up. It's not a difficult concept. And it's not unreasonable to assume that at least some of those people earned a lot of their gil legitimately and don't deserve to be blanket punished with everyone else.


    Actually

    In case you were wondering from September 12-30 they terminated 6360 accounts for hacking and RMT in XIV.

     

    Its on their website.

    Doh.. Okay, let me try this again, because you are still mistaken. Those 6,360 accounts were banned for hacking, botting, exploiting, and RMT activity. Those people aren't the issue here, they were found guilty and there was evidence of their guilt.

    The issue at hand is about the 568 players who were told they'd be suspended for 72 hours, were suspended for a week, and then were found innocent. These 568 players, found innocent, were given their accounts back, and were allowed to play again. Regardless of that innocence, their gil was reduced to 1% of it's previous state. And nothing has been said about it since. Many people are calling support, chatting with support, and writing tickets to support, and not a single person has had anything explained to them in more detail than what you already read on their website.

    Are we on the same page now? :)

  • FoomerangFoomerang Portland, ORPosts: 5,565Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by funkinX

    The issue at hand is about the 568 players who were told they'd be suspended for 72 hours, were suspended for a week, and then were found innocent. These 568 players, found innocent, were given their accounts back, and were allowed to play again. Regardless of that innocence, their gil was reduced to 1% of it's previous state. And nothing has been said about it since. Many people are calling support, chatting with support, and writing tickets to support, and not a single person has had anything explained to them in more detail than what you already read on their website.Are we on the same page now? :)

    Ah yes that makes much more sense. We were talking about two different things. I can totally see what you're saying about that. I apologize for the misunderstanding.
  • Mtibbs1989Mtibbs1989 Fredericksburg, VAPosts: 2,920Member Uncommon
     I 100% support SE's decision in the RMT money bans. It has effected our guild as well, however our members have more than recovered from it. Over all the game is much better now than it was before the RMT sweep.

    image

    Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
  • Mtibbs1989Mtibbs1989 Fredericksburg, VAPosts: 2,920Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Foomerang

     


    Originally posted by funkinX

    The issue at hand is about the 568 players who were told they'd be suspended for 72 hours, were suspended for a week, and then were found innocent. These 568 players, found innocent, were given their accounts back, and were allowed to play again. Regardless of that innocence, their gil was reduced to 1% of it's previous state. And nothing has been said about it since. Many people are calling support, chatting with support, and writing tickets to support, and not a single person has had anything explained to them in more detail than what you already read on their website.

     

    Are we on the same page now? :)


    Ah yes that makes much more sense. We were talking about two different things. I can totally see what you're saying about that. I apologize for the misunderstanding.

     

     I'm just going to butt into your conversion and state that even though the players might have been playing innocent. They were trading with players who have bought/sold gil at some point. There for they handled tainted gil.

    image

    Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,209Member Uncommon

    I think it's good to address both buyers and sellers. It always irritates me when a publisher goes on a seller ban spree, but then leaves the buyer accounts alone. There would be no sellers without buyers.

    I don't condone how they did a broad sweep of non-sellers/buyers. Everyone loves to be able to sell items for a lot and make a killing. What's the point of selling items and trading if you're supposed to sell yourself short? Of course the players without a lot of ingame money are going to think this is a good idea and that people should sell to them for cheap, they're the buyers. It was an unprofessional approach by SE.

    A lot of other publishers have had similar problems, but have handled them much better. Cryptic/PWE had that ridiculous AD exploit and they didn't mass sweep everyone and screw them. People said it would destroy the game, but it didn't. SoE has had problems in the past yet they didn't nuke their players and to this day SoE has some of the best account and support services in the industry.

    The game is as good as any other, but their problems and solutions have illustrated to me that P2P games aren't better, they don't foster better communities, and it doesn't guarantee a premium game experience even if you're paying monthly for it. It doesn't mean it's a worse experience, but I've seen several players in this game post how superior P2P games are and now I think we can safely conclude that better is subjective regardless of the payment model.

    I'll still buy their console and single player PC games, but I'll probably never play one of their online games. I think they're a horrible company.

  • funkinXfunkinX San Francisco, CAPosts: 5Member
    Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
    Originally posted by Foomerang

     


    Originally posted by funkinX

    The issue at hand is about the 568 players who were told they'd be suspended for 72 hours, were suspended for a week, and then were found innocent. These 568 players, found innocent, were given their accounts back, and were allowed to play again. Regardless of that innocence, their gil was reduced to 1% of it's previous state. And nothing has been said about it since. Many people are calling support, chatting with support, and writing tickets to support, and not a single person has had anything explained to them in more detail than what you already read on their website.

     

    Are we on the same page now? :)


    Ah yes that makes much more sense. We were talking about two different things. I can totally see what you're saying about that. I apologize for the misunderstanding.

     

     I'm just going to butt into your conversion and state that even though the players might have been playing innocent. They were trading with players who have bought/sold gil at some point. There for they handled tainted gil.

    If you can please explain how to avoid having your crafts and harvests on the marketplace being sold to people who have purchased gil via RMT, I'd appreciate that bit of insight. Also, please explain how players can choose who is allowed to buy all of their wares and know for a fact the source of their customers' gil. If you can't do this, you're blaming the victims.

    Keep in mind, these punished players were trying to save for things like mansions when housing is released, which is supposed to be incredibly expensive. There is no other reason to save money, really. They leveled their crafters and gatherers to 50 and geared those classes up instead of combat classes like most people did. Most people leveled combat classes to 50 and earned 200-300k via quests, and then wanted to buy new gear and materia melds -- typically from people who leveled crafting first. Those combat classes played through story-lines, instances, and maybe even grouped with friends to enjoy content. Crafters and gatherers typically don't enjoy that same type of content unless they have great FC support, and for gatherers specifically, it's much more of a grind than any other class. They do all this for the profit, to earn gil to prepare for the future -- gil which was all taken away even after being found innocent and being un-suspended. The guilty people were actually banned.

  • derek39derek39 monett, MOPosts: 155Member Uncommon
    If it's for the good of Eorzea. I'm on board.

    Monster Hunter Veteran since '04.
    Currently playing: MH4U, Bloodborne, FFXIV, and a bit of GW2 on the side.

  • Mtibbs1989Mtibbs1989 Fredericksburg, VAPosts: 2,920Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by funkinX
    Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
    Originally posted by Foomerang

     


    Originally posted by funkinX

    The issue at hand is about the 568 players who were told they'd be suspended for 72 hours, were suspended for a week, and then were found innocent. These 568 players, found innocent, were given their accounts back, and were allowed to play again. Regardless of that innocence, their gil was reduced to 1% of it's previous state. And nothing has been said about it since. Many people are calling support, chatting with support, and writing tickets to support, and not a single person has had anything explained to them in more detail than what you already read on their website.

     

    Are we on the same page now? :)


    Ah yes that makes much more sense. We were talking about two different things. I can totally see what you're saying about that. I apologize for the misunderstanding.

     

     I'm just going to butt into your conversion and state that even though the players might have been playing innocent. They were trading with players who have bought/sold gil at some point. There for they handled tainted gil.

    If you can please explain how to avoid having your crafts and harvests on the marketplace being sold to people who have purchased gil via RMT, I'd appreciate that bit of insight. Also, please explain how players can choose who is allowed to buy all of their wares and know for a fact the source of their customers' gil. If you can't do this, you're blaming the victims.

    Keep in mind, these punished players were trying to save for things like mansions when housing is released, which is supposed to be incredibly expensive. There is no other reason to save money, really. They leveled their crafters and gatherers to 50 and geared those classes up instead of combat classes like most people did. Most people leveled combat classes to 50 and earned 200-300k via quests, and then wanted to buy new gear and materia melds -- typically from people who leveled crafting first. Those combat classes played through story-lines, instances, and maybe even grouped with friends to enjoy content. Crafters and gatherers typically don't enjoy that same type of content unless they have great FC support, and for gatherers specifically, it's much more of a grind than any other class. They do all this for the profit, to earn gil to prepare for the future -- gil which was all taken away even after being found innocent and being un-suspended. The guilty people were actually banned.

     You're assuming I haven't been affected by the RMT sweep myself ;).

     Anyways, this is coming from a guy who has lost a great chunk of money during the RMT sweeps; around 8-9,000,000. However, I still completely agree with the removal of gil. Sure, I got caught in the crossfire, but it's more beneficial for the game in the long run to remove gil sellers early on.

     My best suggestion is to not carry large amounts of money around all of the time. Invest it into random things that will hold their value. For example; crystals, shards, and clusters.

     

    image

    Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
  • monochrome19monochrome19 Chicago, ILPosts: 453Member Uncommon
    Go Square!!
  • funkinXfunkinX San Francisco, CAPosts: 5Member
    Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
    Originally posted by funkinX
    Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
    Originally posted by Foomerang

     


    Originally posted by funkinX

    The issue at hand is about the 568 players who were told they'd be suspended for 72 hours, were suspended for a week, and then were found innocent. These 568 players, found innocent, were given their accounts back, and were allowed to play again. Regardless of that innocence, their gil was reduced to 1% of it's previous state. And nothing has been said about it since. Many people are calling support, chatting with support, and writing tickets to support, and not a single person has had anything explained to them in more detail than what you already read on their website.

     

    Are we on the same page now? :)


    Ah yes that makes much more sense. We were talking about two different things. I can totally see what you're saying about that. I apologize for the misunderstanding.

     

     I'm just going to butt into your conversion and state that even though the players might have been playing innocent. They were trading with players who have bought/sold gil at some point. There for they handled tainted gil.

    If you can please explain how to avoid having your crafts and harvests on the marketplace being sold to people who have purchased gil via RMT, I'd appreciate that bit of insight. Also, please explain how players can choose who is allowed to buy all of their wares and know for a fact the source of their customers' gil. If you can't do this, you're blaming the victims.

    Keep in mind, these punished players were trying to save for things like mansions when housing is released, which is supposed to be incredibly expensive. There is no other reason to save money, really. They leveled their crafters and gatherers to 50 and geared those classes up instead of combat classes like most people did. Most people leveled combat classes to 50 and earned 200-300k via quests, and then wanted to buy new gear and materia melds -- typically from people who leveled crafting first. Those combat classes played through story-lines, instances, and maybe even grouped with friends to enjoy content. Crafters and gatherers typically don't enjoy that same type of content unless they have great FC support, and for gatherers specifically, it's much more of a grind than any other class. They do all this for the profit, to earn gil to prepare for the future -- gil which was all taken away even after being found innocent and being un-suspended. The guilty people were actually banned.

     You're assuming I haven't been affected by the RMT sweep myself ;).

     Anyways, this is coming from a guy who has lost a great chunk of money during the RMT sweeps; around 8-9,000,000. However, I still completely agree with the removal of gil. Sure, I got caught in the crossfire, but it's more beneficial for the game in the long run to remove gil sellers early on.

     My best suggestion is to not carry large amounts of money around all of the time. Invest it into random things that will hold their value. For example; crystals, shards, and clusters.

     

    I didn't assume anything. I asked you questions and painted a clear picture so we were on the same page. None of my questions were answered, though. Not carrying large amounts of gil isn't really a valid answer on how to avoid RMT-gil transactions. Housing won't cost crystals.

  • daltaniousdaltanious waPosts: 2,144Member Uncommon

    "SE proudly publishes their data on the amount of ill begotten gil they have removed from the economy through freezing accounts and stripping them of gil or just outright banning them. " Yet they miserably fail just to curb phenomena on chat filled with gold selling messages. In secs could cover entire screen. Also as it looks is too complicated for them to add right click "report spam" or something like that.

     

    Again ... very only good thing I loved in few days of gameplay were incredible sound and environments with fabulous weather conditions.

  • BeowulfsamBeowulfsam Velike LašcePosts: 128Member Uncommon

    I had a friend/guildie that had 14 million gil 2 weeks ago. He did it by being one of the first weapon/armorsmiths and then he controlled the precursor weapon market. He's a jobless bum so he could sit in front of marketboard and undercut till ppl gave up. Guild was/is also selling Titan wins, and he didn't join coz he made more money on market than by selling Titan runs for 300k and getting his cut.

    Needless to say, he doesn't play anymore. Good job SE.

     

  • JasonJJasonJ New Port Richey, FLPosts: 395Member
    Originally posted by Foomerang

    I think it sent a clear message to both gil sellers and buyers. I have already seen an improvement on my server. Less spammers and more stable market prices are two things Ive noticed this week. I hope it continues to get better because the game's economy is quite provocative.

     It also sent a clear message to crafters and hardcore gamers...I am all for getting the sellers but not at the expense of innocent people. That's some Gestapo crap right there.

  • turinmacleodturinmacleod Staff Writer Mahopac, NYPosts: 120Member Uncommon

    What makes the gold farmer's coin illegitimate?  it's not like he has a code that just drops gold from the sky.  The economy shouldn't be affected at all.  

    Gold farmers are players too, players who simply apply all their time and effort towards making gold... legitimately making gold, since there is no way (outside of duping) of illegitimately making gold, at least not as far as I know.

    I never really understood all the complaints about buying game items with real money.  

    T

  • KaladinKaladin Here, COPosts: 468Member
    Originally posted by turinmacleod

    What makes the gold farmer's coin illegitimate?  it's not like he has a code that just drops gold from the sky.  The economy shouldn't be affected at all.  

    Gold farmers are players too, players who simply apply all their time and effort towards making gold... legitimately making gold, since there is no way (outside of duping) of illegitimately making gold, at least not as far as I know.

    I never really understood all the complaints about buying game items with real money.  

    T

    A Gil duping exploit was reported.  They were also hacking insecure player accounts and draining their characters.  Those are less than legitimate means in by book.

    There is a HUGE difference between the behaviors of the RMT business, and gold farming.  Gold farming, by it's strict definition, is legitimate, but to get the volumes of in-game currency to make the sellers' time worthwhile, they have no choice but to obtain it illegally.

    I can fly higher than an aeroplane.
    And I have the voice of a thousand hurricanes.
    Hurt - Wars

  • Rizon538Rizon538 QUINCY, ILPosts: 33Member

    Legitimate Crafters and Gatherers have been placed in an untenable position by SEs practices. Please remember that these people have absolutely no control over who purchases their product. All sales on the Market Boards are blind sales and handled through an Intermediary (Retainers). There is no way that the seller can screen the buyers yet they are being punished anyways. While I fully support SE in their efforts to rid the game of RMTs and the players who who buy from them I cannot support the actions taken against legitimate players. It is apparent to me that if Yoshi-P had his way there would be no player controlled economy within ARR at all. There are several reasons why I say this:

     

    1. Despite his promise to carry over everything earned in 1.0 he did a partial Gil wipe of 90% to all players. He tried to justify it by saying that with the reduced costs of items there was no need to have that much Gil. He also expressed the opinion that players with large amounts of Gil would ruin the economy for people new to the came, He then limits these people to Legacy worlds where they can only compete against themselves. He also ignores the fact that in this type of setting players control the economy not the developers.

     

    2. The crafting and gathering mechanics are some of the best I have ever seen in an MMO yet in a few cases they are virtually worthless. The best crafted high end gear are about 3 levels below gear that can only be obtained as drops from dungeons. Even if you wanted to make and sell these items the cost for Mats is astronomical. Example, in order to make a set of Darksteel Armor you will need 16 Darksteel Ingots. In order to make 1 Ingot you need 9 pieces of Coke which cost 125 Tomes of Philosophy. That is 1125 tomes or 18K for all. That is a lot of time spent doing CM runs and people would prefer to spend Tomes on Darklight which is better and a lot cheaper.

     

    3. The current practice of using automated programs to identify people with a certain amount of Gil and then stripping them of that Gil because they probably sold some items to players who bought Gil from RMTs. The current rate of return after a temp ban is 1%. So far SE has produced no evidence that they investigated these accounts in detail to determine how much was purchased with RMT bought Gil. It appears to be just a blanket wipe. More Gil out of the game.

     

    The only reason, IMO, that Yoshi-P has not gone to a completely developer controlled economy is because he knows that people will leave the game in droves if he did. What he fails to realize is that they will do so anyways if he continues these practices. That would be a shame as this is a great game with great potential.

     
  • ZiderZider NorrköpingPosts: 3Member
    Originally posted by turinmacleod

    What makes the gold farmer's coin illegitimate?  it's not like he has a code that just drops gold from the sky.  The economy shouldn't be affected at all.  Gold farmers are players too, players who simply apply all their time and effort towards making gold... legitimately making gold, since there is no way (outside of duping) of illegitimately making gold, at least not as far as I know.I never really understood all the complaints about buying game items with real money.  T

     

    There has been reports of players zapping between mob spawn points and killing before the mobs even pop, and miners/botanists somehow below the ground with barely the nametag sticking up (probably some nasty farm hack). That's hardly legitimate.
  • ZiderZider NorrköpingPosts: 3Member
    Originally posted by Rizon538

    1. Despite his promise to carry over everything earned in 1.0 he did a partial Gil wipe of 90% to all players. He tried to justify it by saying that with the reduced costs of items there was no need to have that much Gil. He also expressed the opinion that players with large amounts of Gil would ruin the economy for people new to the came, He then limits these people to Legacy worlds where they can only compete against themselves. He also ignores the fact that in this type of setting players control the economy not the developers.

     

     

    There was no "wipe" or lost gil, they simply removed a zero at the end of everything. Instead of having 1000 gil and paying 100 gil for an item, you have 100 gil and pay 10 gil for the same item. The gil value is still the same.
  • EdliEdli TiranaPosts: 941Member
    Originally posted by Rizon538

    The best crafted high end gear are about 3 levels below gear that can only be obtained as drops from dungeons. 

     

    I've heard the best gear is crafted one because of materia but sure, expensive as hell.

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