I think you confuse army with a zerg. Now an army uses its strategic resources smartly and tries to get the best result, conserve troops etc.
On the other hand a zerg will not care. Basically imagine the allies going "lolololol" and running up omaha beach with guns blazing, never taking cover, dieing by the thousands and respawning, keeping up until the defenses were worn down by the endless swarm. THAT is a zerg. It's not tactical, its just throwing material at an issue until it goes away without really thinking about it. DPS being king here.
Haven't you ever played COD? That is how it really happened.
Little forum boys with their polished cyber toys: whine whine, boo-hoo, talk talk.
It's simple. Find the differences between DAoC's RvR (before ToA) and GW2's WvW and you will see why the one was almost perfect and the other one failed miserably.
1) DAoC heavily prioritized killing players (PvP) over holding keeps. This made RvR mostly a PvP thing and not a PvE (or PvDoor as some say) thing. Also this gave a home to both casual players (zergers, keep fighters, relic fighters) and hardcore players (8v8, soloers, stealthers). GW2 does the opposite which makes it one dimensional and exclusively targeted towards casual players.
2) DAoC had real endless PvP progression (the best one of any MMO to this day). GW2's WvW passives are weak and unimportant.
3) In DAoC you faced the same people every week, in GW2 your opponents change and are nameless.
4) In DAoC your enemies were different races, classes etc. In GW2 you fight against enemies that look and behave exactly like you. This made DAoC much more immersive.
5) DAoC had a great CC system. GW2 doesn't
6) DAoC had a great stealth system. GW2 doesn't.
7) In DAoC every kill/death was broadcast in the whole region. This helped create a better community. Some players and guilds became famous, infamous. You familiarized with your opponents as well. Everyone knew each other. In GW2 you don't know your allies, you certainly don't know your enemies. There is no real community.
8) In DAoC you couldn't transfer to other servers. This made the community even better. You had to reroll. In GW2 you can transfer very often.
There is more but that was all I could think of in 5 minutes or so.
It was sooo popular that it got carried to every game that was released after DAoC
Well many games tried and will try to immitate DAoC's RvR: GW2, TERA, Rift, WAR, TESO, Camelot Unchained. Until now everyone has failed... Let's hope someone succeeds.
It's simple. Find the differences between DAoC's RvR (before ToA) and GW2's WvW and you will see why the one was almost perfect and the other one failed miserably.
1) DAoC heavily prioritized killing players (PvP) over holding keeps. This made RvR mostly a PvP thing and not a PvE (or PvDoor as some say) thing. Also this gave a home to both casual players (zergers, keep fighters, relic fighters) and hardcore players (8v8, soloers, stealthers). GW2 does the opposite which makes it one dimensional and exclusively targeted towards casual players.
2) DAoC had real endless PvP progression (the best one of any MMO to this day). GW2's WvW passives are weak and unimportant.
3) In DAoC you faced the same people every week, in GW2 your opponents change and are nameless.
4) In DAoC your enemies were different races, classes etc. In GW2 you fight against enemies that look and behave exactly like you. This made DAoC much more immersive.
5) DAoC had a great CC system. GW2 doesn't
6) DAoC had a great stealth system. GW2 doesn't.
7) In DAoC every kill/death was broadcast in the whole region. This helped create a better community. Some players and guilds became famous, infamous. You familiarized with your opponents as well. Everyone knew each other. In GW2 you don't know your allies, you certainly don't know your enemies. There is no real community.
8) In DAoC you couldn't transfer to other servers. This made the community even better. You had to reroll. In GW2 you can transfer very often.
There is more but that was all I could think of in 5 minutes or so.
It was sooo popular that it got carried to every game that was released after DAoC
Well many games tried and will try to immitate DAoC's RvR: GW2, TERA, Rift, WAR, TESO, Camelot Unchained. Until now everyone has failed... Let's hope someone succeeds.
I don't know how it failed for GW2 but I guess that might just be an opinion and not a fact.
It's simple. Find the differences between DAoC's RvR (before ToA) and GW2's WvW and you will see why the one was almost perfect and the other one failed miserably.
1) DAoC heavily prioritized killing players (PvP) over holding keeps. This made RvR mostly a PvP thing and not a PvE (or PvDoor as some say) thing. Also this gave a home to both casual players (zergers, keep fighters, relic fighters) and hardcore players (8v8, soloers, stealthers). GW2 does the opposite which makes it one dimensional and exclusively targeted towards casual players.
I think the focus should be on HOLDING LAND! Let holding keeps and killing players happen because guilds/realms/players want to hold land and gather the resources off it. That way there is a REASON for combat other than.... They are the other team.....
2) DAoC had real endless PvP progression (the best one of any MMO to this day). GW2's WvW passives are weak and unimportant.
That's a design decision.... PvP progression puts too wide a gap between vets and new players..... Having to play 1000 hours to compete is no fun...... I agree there there needs to be SOMETHING, but I don't think iinfinite progression is it.
3) In DAoC you faced the same people every week, in GW2 your opponents change and are nameless.
/agree
4) In DAoC your enemies were different races, classes etc. In GW2 you fight against enemies that look and behave exactly like you. This made DAoC much more immersive.
/agree
5) DAoC had a great CC system. GW2 doesn't
/agree
6) DAoC had a great stealth system. GW2 doesn't.
/agree.... kinda
7) In DAoC every kill/death was broadcast in the whole region. This helped create a better community. Some players and guilds became famous, infamous. You familiarized with your opponents as well. Everyone knew each other. In GW2 you don't know your allies, you certainly don't know your enemies. There is no real community.
/agree
8) In DAoC you couldn't transfer to other servers. This made the community even better. You had to reroll. In GW2 you can transfer very often.
/agree
There is more but that was all I could think of in 5 minutes or so.
DAOC wasn't perfect and there is ALWAYS room for improvement. I don't want DAOC to be the gold standard but I would like too see the things it did right re-used and the things it did wrong worked on. I really enjoyed the supply system in GW2, but it wasn't deep enough.
There is still ALOT of room for experimentation and trying new things. Hopefully CU and TESO will come up with some cool ideas.
It's not like the groundwork for GW2 pvp was/is bad. The combat it's self isn't bad. After a bit though both spvp and wvw hit you with a huge feeling of "what am I doing this for?" You are not doing it for gear, skills, or gold.
I really wish they had or would really look into skill system. I believe if there where A LOT more skills, builds, and weapons it could possibly give meaning to the pvp.
It's simple. Find the differences between DAoC's RvR (before ToA) and GW2's WvW and you will see why the one was almost perfect and the other one failed miserably.
1) DAoC heavily prioritized killing players (PvP) over holding keeps. This made RvR mostly a PvP thing and not a PvE (or PvDoor as some say) thing. Also this gave a home to both casual players (zergers, keep fighters, relic fighters) and hardcore players (8v8, soloers, stealthers). GW2 does the opposite which makes it one dimensional and exclusively targeted towards casual players.
I think the focus should be on HOLDING LAND! Let holding keeps and killing players happen because guilds/realms/players want to hold land and gather the resources off it. That way there is a REASON for combat other than.... They are the other team.....
2) DAoC had real endless PvP progression (the best one of any MMO to this day). GW2's WvW passives are weak and unimportant.
That's a design decision.... PvP progression puts too wide a gap between vets and new players..... Having to play 1000 hours to compete is no fun...... I agree there there needs to be SOMETHING, but I don't think iinfinite progression is it.
3) In DAoC you faced the same people every week, in GW2 your opponents change and are nameless.
/agree
4) In DAoC your enemies were different races, classes etc. In GW2 you fight against enemies that look and behave exactly like you. This made DAoC much more immersive.
/agree
5) DAoC had a great CC system. GW2 doesn't
/agree
6) DAoC had a great stealth system. GW2 doesn't.
/agree.... kinda
7) In DAoC every kill/death was broadcast in the whole region. This helped create a better community. Some players and guilds became famous, infamous. You familiarized with your opponents as well. Everyone knew each other. In GW2 you don't know your allies, you certainly don't know your enemies. There is no real community.
/agree
8) In DAoC you couldn't transfer to other servers. This made the community even better. You had to reroll. In GW2 you can transfer very often.
/agree
There is more but that was all I could think of in 5 minutes or so.
DAOC wasn't perfect and there is ALWAYS room for improvement. I don't want DAOC to be the gold standard but I would like too see the things it did right re-used and the things it did wrong worked on. I really enjoyed the supply system in GW2, but it wasn't deep enough.
There is still ALOT of room for experimentation and trying new things. Hopefully CU and TESO will come up with some cool ideas.
Spite the fact I still play WvW and PVP I mostly agree.
I actually never played DAOC but some things listed sound great if where in WVW.
5 and 6 is subjective and I can't agree nor disagree since I never tried it out. I think I would of played DAOC if the combat was different and not tab target base...or I click, watch, press numbers, and no movement needed.(Not saying that to other people that isn't better, but for me I don't like that kind of gameplay)
Also correct me if I'm wrong but it wasn't more skill based as it was more on time and gear. Oh and another thing, it was sub wasn't it? If so then that's one of the main reasons I passed on it but at the time it was out, they had a good reason to charge subs due to server costs.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
[quote]It's not like the groundwork for GW2 pvp was/is bad. The combat it's self isn't bad. After a bit though both spvp and wvw hit you with a huge feeling of "what am I doing this for?" You are not doing it for gear, skills, or gold.[/quote]
This. There is just something wrong with GW2 PvP. I am honestly surprised. I was a casual PvPer in wow but I loved long Alterac Valley Fights and then I loved Wintergrasp. But GW2 leaves me empty. Its just like a lot of running around with no hope of every really winning anything in WvWvW. And SPvP feels kinda like a practice mode or something - I guess because there isn't much real advancement of characters.
It's not like the groundwork for GW2 pvp was/is bad. The combat it's self isn't bad. After a bit though both spvp and wvw hit you with a huge feeling of "what am I doing this for?" You are not doing it for gear, skills, or gold.
Why do you claim: "both spvp and wvw hit you with a huge feeling of 'what am I doing this for?' " ?
I never had that thought, with the current incarnation of GW2 sPvP and the more PvE'ish WvW, even though you insist I do!
To some of us, virtual "gear" and "gold" is utterly meaningless. The feeling of having "fun" and an "outing with my guild" however, is quite rewarding to us!
Your "PvP" is not my "PvP" - Please stop speaking on my behalf
We dont need casuals in our games!!! Errm... Well we DO need casuals to fund and populate our games - But the games should be all about "hardcore" because: We dont need casuals in our games!!! (repeat ad infinitum)
Spite the fact I still play WvW and PVP I mostly agree.
I actually never played DAOC but some things listed sound great if where in WVW.
5 and 6 is subjective and I can't agree nor disagree since I never tried it out. I think I would of played DAOC if the combat was different and not tab target base...or I click, watch, press numbers, and no movement needed.(Not saying that to other people that isn't better, but for me I don't like that kind of gameplay)
Also correct me if I'm wrong but it wasn't more skill based as it was more on time and gear. Oh and another thing, it was sub wasn't it? If so then that's one of the main reasons I passed on it but at the time it was out, they had a good reason to charge subs due to server costs.
I really DO like the action combat of GW2, although it does devolve rather rapidly in mass combat.
The main argument for CC is that it breaks up the zerg. Same thing with powerful AOE's. You need to PUNISH players for stacking on top of each other not reward them. That way having more players =/= more power.
I understand that being CCed isn't fun, but neither is being obliterated because 50 more people logged on for the other team.
For me it fails because it is an instance, removed from the world. It's just an e-sport with no consequence. I like to play open world pvp games with consequence, like Darkfall or Eve.
For me, games like GW2 are short term fun.
How is consequence working for you in EVE when you have 2+ billion ISKs to replace any losses you might take and how is consequence working for you in Darkfall when you have 50+ armour and weapons in your bank that you can use when you get ganked?
EVE and Darkfall might sound hardcore but in reality it is not
I bet the players below don't agree with you.
EVE-Kill shows the details of the mishap experienced by poor pilot “stewie Zanjoahir” and the destruction of his tiny, ungeared (yet fast) Atron frigate at the hands of attackers “makasoni” and “killorbekilled TBE.” A glance at the included cargo manifest shows a small mountain of rare and precious ship, weapon, and hardpoint blueprints valued in the millions. Total assets lost: 213,083,571,404 ISK.
Let’s crunch some numbers. EVE Online players can purchase 30-day game-time extensions called PLEX with the in-game currency, ISK. At the current market exchange rate of around 570 million ISK for a single PLEX, Zanjoahir’s haul equates to 373 PLEX or roughly 30 years of game time—or, for a cold, hard cash slap in the face, over $6,400. Ouch.
Zanjoahir’s reasons for venturing into the cutthroat chaos of low-security space with what equated to a harmless loot pinata aren’t known, but the attack certainly constituted the largest loss of any EVE Online player to date. I suppose the old “don’t put your eggs in one basket” warning doesn’t translate well to “don’t store your Inferno Heavy Missile schematics in one cargo hold.”
Some time late last night a member of the EVE corporation Habitual Euthanasia (alliance Pandemic Legion) lost his Revenant Supercarrier in a battle with members of Black Legion. For those of you wondering why this might be a big deal, the Revenant Supercarrier is an ultra-rare faction ship. In fact, according the description on the YouTube video there were only three of these ships in game before the battle.
The loss of the ship is estimated to be somewhere between 280B and 330B ISK, which equates to around $8,000+ in US dollars. (For those of you who don’t follow EVE, ISK is easily convertible to real money due to CCP’s use of Plex. Therefore, in-game items do have a real-world value. **Note: My phrasing on this seems to have confused several people so while I won’t change it. I will explain: Isk is not intended to be traded back into cash, but you can do the math — “conversions” — to figure out what ISK equals in real money due to its relationship with PLEX. Therefore, in technical terms it is convertible to real money — mathematically.**) According to the kill-report on EVE-Kill.net the total monetary loss between the ship and items contained within tallies out at 309,030,412,238 ISK with 290B of that being the ship alone.
I think you confuse army with a zerg. Now an army uses its strategic resources smartly and tries to get the best result, conserve troops etc.
On the other hand a zerg will not care. Basically imagine the allies going "lolololol" and running up omaha beach with guns blazing, never taking cover, dieing by the thousands and respawning, keeping up until the defenses were worn down by the endless swarm. THAT is a zerg. It's not tactical, its just throwing material at an issue until it goes away without really thinking about it. DPS being king here.
What if a zerg defend your zerg?
You have no clue about war and tactics if this was an honest question. General George S. Patton said, "No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country." If you don't get it, please don't join any military organization. Friendly fire is frowned upon everywhere.
Was going to provide a detailed response, but reading through the OPs responses its clear it was just a baited question and he is an Anet shrill, so I don't see the point.
It's simple. Find the differences between DAoC's RvR (before ToA) and GW2's WvW and you will see why the one was almost perfect and the other one failed miserably.
1) DAoC heavily prioritized killing players (PvP) over holding keeps. This made RvR mostly a PvP thing and not a PvE (or PvDoor as some say) thing. Also this gave a home to both casual players (zergers, keep fighters, relic fighters) and hardcore players (8v8, soloers, stealthers). GW2 does the opposite which makes it one dimensional and exclusively targeted towards casual players.
Yup really hard to kill your buddy 1000 times per night ...Let's be cool and call that a fight club
2) DAoC had real endless PvP progression (the best one of any MMO to this day). GW2's WvW passives are weak and unimportant.
Same answer as to point #1 ...really great for the cheaters not so good for the average player
3) In DAoC you faced the same people every week, in GW2 your opponents change and are nameless.
I knew the 400 Hibs on my server well ....I just didn't know the names of the 5000 Albs
4) In DAoC your enemies were different races, classes etc. In GW2 you fight against enemies that look and behave exactly like you. This made DAoC much more immersive.
ah yes the nerf bat wars ....we should all have just played Mids
5) DAoC had a great CC system. GW2 doesn't
Agree really fun to have one player mezz 60 .....#1 reason most folks hated RVR
6) DAoC had a great stealth system. GW2 doesn't.
Never has never will be a great stealth system ....until I can turn invisible and kick your ass in really life Stealth and Combat sucks
7) In DAoC every kill/death was broadcast in the whole region. This helped create a better community. Some players and guilds became famous, infamous. You familiarized with your opponents as well. Everyone knew each other. In GW2 you don't know your allies, you certainly don't know your enemies. There is no real community.
See point one Tommy killed Bobby Tommy killed Bobby Tommy Killed Bobby * 1000
8) In DAoC you couldn't transfer to other servers. This made the community even better. You had to reroll. In GW2 you can transfer very often.
One server warfare sucks .....even winning every single time gets to be a bore
There is more but that was all I could think of in 5 minutes or so.
For me it fails because it is an instance, removed from the world. It's just an e-sport with no consequence. I like to play open world pvp games with consequence, like Darkfall or Eve.
For me, games like GW2 are short term fun.
How is consequence working for you in EVE when you have 2+ billion ISKs to replace any losses you might take and how is consequence working for you in Darkfall when you have 50+ armour and weapons in your bank that you can use when you get ganked?
EVE and Darkfall might sound hardcore but in reality it is not
I bet the players below don't agree with you.
EVE-Kill shows the details of the mishap experienced by poor pilot “stewie Zanjoahir” and the destruction of his tiny, ungeared (yet fast) Atron frigate at the hands of attackers “makasoni” and “killorbekilled TBE.” A glance at the included cargo manifest shows a small mountain of rare and precious ship, weapon, and hardpoint blueprints valued in the millions. Total assets lost: 213,083,571,404 ISK.
Let’s crunch some numbers. EVE Online players can purchase 30-day game-time extensions called PLEX with the in-game currency, ISK. At the current market exchange rate of around 570 million ISK for a single PLEX, Zanjoahir’s haul equates to 373 PLEX or roughly 30 years of game time—or, for a cold, hard cash slap in the face, over $6,400. Ouch.
Zanjoahir’s reasons for venturing into the cutthroat chaos of low-security space with what equated to a harmless loot pinata aren’t known, but the attack certainly constituted the largest loss of any EVE Online player to date. I suppose the old “don’t put your eggs in one basket” warning doesn’t translate well to “don’t store your Inferno Heavy Missile schematics in one cargo hold.”
Some time late last night a member of the EVE corporation Habitual Euthanasia (alliance Pandemic Legion) lost his Revenant Supercarrier in a battle with members of Black Legion. For those of you wondering why this might be a big deal, the Revenant Supercarrier is an ultra-rare faction ship. In fact, according the description on the YouTube video there were only three of these ships in game before the battle.
The loss of the ship is estimated to be somewhere between 280B and 330B ISK, which equates to around $8,000+ in US dollars. (For those of you who don’t follow EVE, ISK is easily convertible to real money due to CCP’s use of Plex. Therefore, in-game items do have a real-world value. **Note: My phrasing on this seems to have confused several people so while I won’t change it. I will explain: Isk is not intended to be traded back into cash, but you can do the math — “conversions” — to figure out what ISK equals in real money due to its relationship with PLEX. Therefore, in technical terms it is convertible to real money — mathematically.**) According to the kill-report on EVE-Kill.net the total monetary loss between the ship and items contained within tallies out at 309,030,412,238 ISK with 290B of that being the ship alone.
It's too bad a player can't actually cash-out of Eve and walk away $6-8K dollars richer.
Eve is the only game that I know of that can equate virtual assets to real world money. All the other games with PVP like WoW, GW2, or AoW just have you dust yourself, respawn and jump back into the fray. Well, actually you get item decay in WoW and GW2 so you have to pay repairs, but that's still just chump change. I don't even think in Age of Wushu there is item decay from combat. Just timed decay akin to renting on some of their items. It's been a while since I played so maybe that changed?
It's simple. Find the differences between DAoC's RvR (before ToA) and GW2's WvW and you will see why the one was almost perfect and the other one failed miserably.
1) DAoC heavily prioritized killing players (PvP) over holding keeps. This made RvR mostly a PvP thing and not a PvE (or PvDoor as some say) thing. Also this gave a home to both casual players (zergers, keep fighters, relic fighters) and hardcore players (8v8, soloers, stealthers). GW2 does the opposite which makes it one dimensional and exclusively targeted towards casual players.
Yup really hard to kill your buddy 1000 times per night ...Let's be cool and call that a fight club
2) DAoC had real endless PvP progression (the best one of any MMO to this day). GW2's WvW passives are weak and unimportant.
Same answer as to point #1 ...really great for the cheaters not so good for the average player
3) In DAoC you faced the same people every week, in GW2 your opponents change and are nameless.
I knew the 400 Hibs on my server well ....I just didn't know the names of the 5000 Albs
4) In DAoC your enemies were different races, classes etc. In GW2 you fight against enemies that look and behave exactly like you. This made DAoC much more immersive.
ah yes the nerf bat wars ....we should all have just played Mids
5) DAoC had a great CC system. GW2 doesn't
Agree really fun to have one player mezz 60 .....#1 reason most folks hated RVR
6) DAoC had a great stealth system. GW2 doesn't.
Never has never will be a great stealth system ....until I can turn invisible and kick your ass in really life Stealth and Combat sucks
7) In DAoC every kill/death was broadcast in the whole region. This helped create a better community. Some players and guilds became famous, infamous. You familiarized with your opponents as well. Everyone knew each other. In GW2 you don't know your allies, you certainly don't know your enemies. There is no real community.
See point one Tommy killed Bobby Tommy killed Bobby Tommy Killed Bobby * 1000
8) In DAoC you couldn't transfer to other servers. This made the community even better. You had to reroll. In GW2 you can transfer very often.
One server warfare sucks .....even winning every single time gets to be a bore
There is more but that was all I could think of in 5 minutes or so.
Your responses show that you didn't play DAoC very long. Probably hit 50 and quit shortly after?
Farming teammates was inefficient compared to RvRing (there was a timer before you could get rps from that same target again), and people who did that were usually banned. Kill broadcasts made it even easier to identify exploiters since they would be reported by many people at the same time.
I was an alb on the biggest EU server and I knew most albs and guilds that RvRed.
About CC: It made RvR more skill based. Bad players would usually spend a lot of time CC'ed so they were the ones that complained. Some of them learned to deal with it, others quit and are still whining about it to this day.
About stealth: Permastealth has multiple benefits to making RvR better overall. It creates a food chain: zerg > group > small group > soloers <> stealthers. Without stealthers there would be no soloers. Without soloers there would be no small groups. It would severely limit the playstyles on the battlefield.
Unlike GW2 there was no server "winning" in DAoC. Again it seems like you didn't play very long.
Nice post about DAOC above but it forgot one of the most important things. DAOC pretty much everyone ran map hacks which allowed you to pick your fights and allowed a group of 8 to move around without fear of instantly dying to the zerg. It obviously isn't something that should be considered a plus but it really did make the 8 man experience a lot more fun.
GW2 in general tries to curb how much player skill matters to keep the game accessible to the casual fan. This is an issue with every single aspect of the game but probably rears its head more in PvP than PvE.
The big negative to DAOC was if your race was losing in RvR all the time people left the server and eventually the population imbalances killed the game. They tried hard to fix it but never were able to pull it off.
Nice post about DAOC above but it forgot one of the most important things. DAOC pretty much everyone ran map hacks which allowed you to pick your fights and allowed a group of 8 to move around without fear of instantly dying to the zerg. It obviously isn't something that should be considered a plus but it really did make the 8 man experience a lot more fun.
GW2 in general tries to curb how much player skill matters to keep the game accessible to the casual fan. This is an issue with every single aspect of the game but probably rears its head more in PvP than PvE.
The big negative to DAOC was if your race was losing in RvR all the time people left the server and eventually the population imbalances killed the game. They tried hard to fix it but never were able to pull it off.
You didn't need maphacks to avoid the zerg. Zergs had slow reaction speeds and slow movement speeds. A good 8v8 group could run past the zerg before the zerg even saw it.
The population imbalanced weren't a problem either. Everyone wanted to play on low pop realms because it was easier to find enemies.
DAoC died because Mythic was greedy and released shitty expansions without thinking of the consequences they would have on the game.
Your responses show that you didn't play DAoC very long. Probably hit 50 and quit shortly after?
Farming teammates was inefficient compared to RvRing (there was a timer before you could get rps from that same target again), and people who did that were usually banned. Kill broadcasts made it even easier to identify exploiters since they would be reported by many people at the same time.
I was an alb on the biggest EU server and I knew most albs and guilds that RvRed.
About CC: It made RvR more skill based. Bad players would usually spend a lot of time CC'ed so they were the ones that complained. Some of them learned to deal with it, others quit and are still whining about it to this day.
About stealth: Permastealth has multiple benefits to making RvR better overall. It creates a food chain: zerg > group > small group > soloers <> stealthers. Without stealthers there would be no soloers. Without soloers there would be no small groups. It would severely limit the playstyles on the battlefield.
Unlike GW2 there was no server "winning" in DAoC. Again it seems like you didn't play very long.
I think perhaps your glasses are a little rose coloured ....I'm sure you had fun being an alb , but the point was on the server I played on hibs and mids were outnumber 10 to 1 by albs
The damage done by kill trading (fight clubs ) never was balanced out ...
Permastealth and mass CC are a crutch ...it doesn't create a food chain it creates asshats
Actually the thing that killed Daoc for me was shadowbane and later vanilla wow
So as far as server winning I miss the point ....? so after 2.5 to 3 years did they come up with a way to balance out servers so you didn't have to just move and restart because by the time WOW arrived everyone I knew had left
Your responses show that you didn't play DAoC very long. Probably hit 50 and quit shortly after?
Farming teammates was inefficient compared to RvRing (there was a timer before you could get rps from that same target again), and people who did that were usually banned. Kill broadcasts made it even easier to identify exploiters since they would be reported by many people at the same time.
I was an alb on the biggest EU server and I knew most albs and guilds that RvRed.
About CC: It made RvR more skill based. Bad players would usually spend a lot of time CC'ed so they were the ones that complained. Some of them learned to deal with it, others quit and are still whining about it to this day.
About stealth: Permastealth has multiple benefits to making RvR better overall. It creates a food chain: zerg > group > small group > soloers <> stealthers. Without stealthers there would be no soloers. Without soloers there would be no small groups. It would severely limit the playstyles on the battlefield.
Unlike GW2 there was no server "winning" in DAoC. Again it seems like you didn't play very long.
I think perhaps your glasses are a little rose coloured ....I'm sure you had fun being an alb , but the point was on the server I played on hibs and mids were outnumber 10 to 1 by albs
The damage done by kill trading (fight clubs ) never was balanced out ...
Permastealth and mass CC are a crutch ...it doesn't create a food chain it creates asshats
Actually the thing that killed Daoc for me was shadowbane and later vanilla wow
So as far as server winning I miss the point ....? so after 2.5 to 3 years did they come up with a way to balance out servers so you didn't have to just move and restart because by the time WOW arrived everyone I knew had left
My glasses are fine. I played DAoC again in 2010-2011 on uthgard (classic server) and it's still awesome. The only thing it lacks is a healthy population.
I wish I didn't play albion. Too many friendlies, too few enemies. The more underpopulated a realm the better.
I have never heard of a fight club in DAoC. Did you just make that up? People who win traded were either banned or quit by themselves. Extremely few of the high ranking players win traded.
And LOL@ shadowbane (what?) and WoW killing DAoC. DAoCers were PvPers. WoW's PvP was and is shit. No game killed DAoC. It commited suicide.
My glasses are fine. I played DAoC again in 2010-2011 on uthgard (classic server) and it's still awesome. The only thing it lacks is a healthy population.
I wish I didn't play albion. Too many friendlies, too few enemies. The more underpopulated a realm the better.
I have never heard of a fight club in DAoC. Did you just make that up? People who win traded were either banned or quit by themselves. Extremely few of the high ranking players win traded.
And LOL@ shadowbane (what?) and WoW killing DAoC. DAoCers were PvPers. WoW's PvP was and is shit. No game killed DAoC. It commited suicide.
You are being completely naive. Win trading was rampant, map hacks were rampant. DAOC is one of the most exploited games in the history of MMORPG. Find a way to cheat and it was really common in that game.
Originally posted by nerovipus32 Because it's pointless and doesn't effect the world around you.
This. I asked people why they put forth the effort to take an area of the map when that same point will bounce back and forth many times a day. I was told to think of the PvP like a baseball game it's all about keeping score. That isn't a good enough reason for me to put forth the effort. I think you really need to love PvP for PvP's sake to enjoy this GW2 PvP. Just don't expect consequence or any real risk vs reward as there are neither.
It's too bad a player can't actually cash-out of Eve and walk away $6-8K dollars richer.
Eve is the only game that I know of that can equate virtual assets to real world money. All the other games with PVP like WoW, GW2, or AoW just have you dust yourself, respawn and jump back into the fray. Well, actually you get item decay in WoW and GW2 so you have to pay repairs, but that's still just chump change. I don't even think in Age of Wushu there is item decay from combat. Just timed decay akin to renting on some of their items. It's been a while since I played so maybe that changed?
Yeah there is item decay from death, and you lose bound silver when you die aswell. It also cost silver to res onsite. No real bad death penalty besides self respect though
It's not like the groundwork for GW2 pvp was/is bad. The combat it's self isn't bad. After a bit though both spvp and wvw hit you with a huge feeling of "what am I doing this for?" You are not doing it for gear, skills, or gold.
Why do you claim: "both spvp and wvw hit you with a huge feeling of 'what am I doing this for?' " ?
I never had that thought, with the current incarnation of GW2 sPvP and the more PvE'ish WvW, even though you insist I do!
To some of us, virtual "gear" and "gold" is utterly meaningless. The feeling of having "fun" and an "outing with my guild" however, is quite rewarding to us!
Your "PvP" is not my "PvP" - Please stop speaking on my behalf
That feeling was real bad with Spvp. This is coming from a guy who got Justicar, and Of the Alliance post vanilla WoW. Battle after Spvp battle for a number, and cosmetic gear you can't even ware in the real game world.
WvW, killing for the sake of killing. Keeps flip back and forth all again for a number, a score. It got really bad when it dawned on me I was buying arrow carts and stuff hoping to break even from the little bag drops.
They both just left me with the feeling of "what for" Idk, It's just nice to win something when you win. It just makes it better. Like I said if there was a much more robust skill system, and skill based perhaps, there would have been more meaning.
Comments
Haven't you ever played COD? That is how it really happened.
Little forum boys with their polished cyber toys: whine whine, boo-hoo, talk talk.
Well many games tried and will try to immitate DAoC's RvR: GW2, TERA, Rift, WAR, TESO, Camelot Unchained. Until now everyone has failed... Let's hope someone succeeds.
DAoC - Excalibur & Camlann
I don't know how it failed for GW2 but I guess that might just be an opinion and not a fact.
DAOC wasn't perfect and there is ALWAYS room for improvement. I don't want DAOC to be the gold standard but I would like too see the things it did right re-used and the things it did wrong worked on. I really enjoyed the supply system in GW2, but it wasn't deep enough.
There is still ALOT of room for experimentation and trying new things. Hopefully CU and TESO will come up with some cool ideas.
It's not like the groundwork for GW2 pvp was/is bad. The combat it's self isn't bad. After a bit though both spvp and wvw hit you with a huge feeling of "what am I doing this for?" You are not doing it for gear, skills, or gold.
I really wish they had or would really look into skill system. I believe if there where A LOT more skills, builds, and weapons it could possibly give meaning to the pvp.
Spite the fact I still play WvW and PVP I mostly agree.
I actually never played DAOC but some things listed sound great if where in WVW.
5 and 6 is subjective and I can't agree nor disagree since I never tried it out. I think I would of played DAOC if the combat was different and not tab target base...or I click, watch, press numbers, and no movement needed.(Not saying that to other people that isn't better, but for me I don't like that kind of gameplay)
Also correct me if I'm wrong but it wasn't more skill based as it was more on time and gear. Oh and another thing, it was sub wasn't it? If so then that's one of the main reasons I passed on it but at the time it was out, they had a good reason to charge subs due to server costs.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
[quote]It's not like the groundwork for GW2 pvp was/is bad. The combat it's self isn't bad. After a bit though both spvp and wvw hit you with a huge feeling of "what am I doing this for?" You are not doing it for gear, skills, or gold.[/quote]
This. There is just something wrong with GW2 PvP. I am honestly surprised. I was a casual PvPer in wow but I loved long Alterac Valley Fights and then I loved Wintergrasp. But GW2 leaves me empty. Its just like a lot of running around with no hope of every really winning anything in WvWvW. And SPvP feels kinda like a practice mode or something - I guess because there isn't much real advancement of characters.
Why do you claim: "both spvp and wvw hit you with a huge feeling of 'what am I doing this for?' " ?
I never had that thought, with the current incarnation of GW2 sPvP and the more PvE'ish WvW, even though you insist I do!
To some of us, virtual "gear" and "gold" is utterly meaningless. The feeling of having "fun" and an "outing with my guild" however, is quite rewarding to us!
Your "PvP" is not my "PvP" - Please stop speaking on my behalf
We dont need casuals in our games!!! Errm... Well we DO need casuals to fund and populate our games - But the games should be all about "hardcore" because: We dont need casuals in our games!!!
(repeat ad infinitum)
I really DO like the action combat of GW2, although it does devolve rather rapidly in mass combat.
The main argument for CC is that it breaks up the zerg. Same thing with powerful AOE's. You need to PUNISH players for stacking on top of each other not reward them. That way having more players =/= more power.
I understand that being CCed isn't fun, but neither is being obliterated because 50 more people logged on for the other team.
I bet the players below don't agree with you.
EVE-Kill shows the details of the mishap experienced by poor pilot “stewie Zanjoahir” and the destruction of his tiny, ungeared (yet fast) Atron frigate at the hands of attackers “makasoni” and “killorbekilled TBE.” A glance at the included cargo manifest shows a small mountain of rare and precious ship, weapon, and hardpoint blueprints valued in the millions. Total assets lost: 213,083,571,404 ISK.
Let’s crunch some numbers. EVE Online players can purchase 30-day game-time extensions called PLEX with the in-game currency, ISK. At the current market exchange rate of around 570 million ISK for a single PLEX, Zanjoahir’s haul equates to 373 PLEX or roughly 30 years of game time—or, for a cold, hard cash slap in the face, over $6,400. Ouch.
Zanjoahir’s reasons for venturing into the cutthroat chaos of low-security space with what equated to a harmless loot pinata aren’t known, but the attack certainly constituted the largest loss of any EVE Online player to date. I suppose the old “don’t put your eggs in one basket” warning doesn’t translate well to “don’t store your Inferno Heavy Missile schematics in one cargo hold.”
Some time late last night a member of the EVE corporation Habitual Euthanasia (alliance Pandemic Legion) lost his Revenant Supercarrier in a battle with members of Black Legion. For those of you wondering why this might be a big deal, the Revenant Supercarrier is an ultra-rare faction ship. In fact, according the description on the YouTube video there were only three of these ships in game before the battle.
The loss of the ship is estimated to be somewhere between 280B and 330B ISK, which equates to around $8,000+ in US dollars. (For those of you who don’t follow EVE, ISK is easily convertible to real money due to CCP’s use of Plex. Therefore, in-game items do have a real-world value. **Note: My phrasing on this seems to have confused several people so while I won’t change it. I will explain: Isk is not intended to be traded back into cash, but you can do the math — “conversions” — to figure out what ISK equals in real money due to its relationship with PLEX. Therefore, in technical terms it is convertible to real money — mathematically.**) According to the kill-report on EVE-Kill.net the total monetary loss between the ship and items contained within tallies out at 309,030,412,238 ISK with 290B of that being the ship alone.
You have no clue about war and tactics if this was an honest question. General George S. Patton said, "No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country." If you don't get it, please don't join any military organization. Friendly fire is frowned upon everywhere.
Was going to provide a detailed response, but reading through the OPs responses its clear it was just a baited question and he is an Anet shrill, so I don't see the point.
It's too bad a player can't actually cash-out of Eve and walk away $6-8K dollars richer.
Eve is the only game that I know of that can equate virtual assets to real world money. All the other games with PVP like WoW, GW2, or AoW just have you dust yourself, respawn and jump back into the fray. Well, actually you get item decay in WoW and GW2 so you have to pay repairs, but that's still just chump change. I don't even think in Age of Wushu there is item decay from combat. Just timed decay akin to renting on some of their items. It's been a while since I played so maybe that changed?
"If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor
Your responses show that you didn't play DAoC very long. Probably hit 50 and quit shortly after?
Farming teammates was inefficient compared to RvRing (there was a timer before you could get rps from that same target again), and people who did that were usually banned. Kill broadcasts made it even easier to identify exploiters since they would be reported by many people at the same time.
I was an alb on the biggest EU server and I knew most albs and guilds that RvRed.
About CC: It made RvR more skill based. Bad players would usually spend a lot of time CC'ed so they were the ones that complained. Some of them learned to deal with it, others quit and are still whining about it to this day.
About stealth: Permastealth has multiple benefits to making RvR better overall. It creates a food chain: zerg > group > small group > soloers <> stealthers. Without stealthers there would be no soloers. Without soloers there would be no small groups. It would severely limit the playstyles on the battlefield.
Unlike GW2 there was no server "winning" in DAoC. Again it seems like you didn't play very long.
DAoC - Excalibur & Camlann
Nice post about DAOC above but it forgot one of the most important things. DAOC pretty much everyone ran map hacks which allowed you to pick your fights and allowed a group of 8 to move around without fear of instantly dying to the zerg. It obviously isn't something that should be considered a plus but it really did make the 8 man experience a lot more fun.
GW2 in general tries to curb how much player skill matters to keep the game accessible to the casual fan. This is an issue with every single aspect of the game but probably rears its head more in PvP than PvE.
The big negative to DAOC was if your race was losing in RvR all the time people left the server and eventually the population imbalances killed the game. They tried hard to fix it but never were able to pull it off.
You didn't need maphacks to avoid the zerg. Zergs had slow reaction speeds and slow movement speeds. A good 8v8 group could run past the zerg before the zerg even saw it.
The population imbalanced weren't a problem either. Everyone wanted to play on low pop realms because it was easier to find enemies.
DAoC died because Mythic was greedy and released shitty expansions without thinking of the consequences they would have on the game.
DAoC - Excalibur & Camlann
I think perhaps your glasses are a little rose coloured ....I'm sure you had fun being an alb , but the point was on the server I played on hibs and mids were outnumber 10 to 1 by albs
The damage done by kill trading (fight clubs ) never was balanced out ...
Permastealth and mass CC are a crutch ...it doesn't create a food chain it creates asshats
Actually the thing that killed Daoc for me was shadowbane and later vanilla wow
So as far as server winning I miss the point ....? so after 2.5 to 3 years did they come up with a way to balance out servers so you didn't have to just move and restart because by the time WOW arrived everyone I knew had left
My glasses are fine. I played DAoC again in 2010-2011 on uthgard (classic server) and it's still awesome. The only thing it lacks is a healthy population.
I wish I didn't play albion. Too many friendlies, too few enemies. The more underpopulated a realm the better.
I have never heard of a fight club in DAoC. Did you just make that up? People who win traded were either banned or quit by themselves. Extremely few of the high ranking players win traded.
And LOL@ shadowbane (what?) and WoW killing DAoC. DAoCers were PvPers. WoW's PvP was and is shit. No game killed DAoC. It commited suicide.
DAoC - Excalibur & Camlann
You are being completely naive. Win trading was rampant, map hacks were rampant. DAOC is one of the most exploited games in the history of MMORPG. Find a way to cheat and it was really common in that game.
This. I asked people why they put forth the effort to take an area of the map when that same point will bounce back and forth many times a day. I was told to think of the PvP like a baseball game it's all about keeping score. That isn't a good enough reason for me to put forth the effort. I think you really need to love PvP for PvP's sake to enjoy this GW2 PvP. Just don't expect consequence or any real risk vs reward as there are neither.
Hm... first problem, too easy to change servers.
RvR maps are too small.
Engine doesn't handle a lot of people very well.
No realm bonuses for taking territory.
No long term realm ranks or anything in RvR.
No enemy names in RvR.
Relics are a joke.
No PvP dungeons.
Yeah there is item decay from death, and you lose bound silver when you die aswell. It also cost silver to res onsite. No real bad death penalty besides self respect though
That feeling was real bad with Spvp. This is coming from a guy who got Justicar, and Of the Alliance post vanilla WoW. Battle after Spvp battle for a number, and cosmetic gear you can't even ware in the real game world.
WvW, killing for the sake of killing. Keeps flip back and forth all again for a number, a score. It got really bad when it dawned on me I was buying arrow carts and stuff hoping to break even from the little bag drops.
They both just left me with the feeling of "what for" Idk, It's just nice to win something when you win. It just makes it better. Like I said if there was a much more robust skill system, and skill based perhaps, there would have been more meaning.