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Why is WvWvW and SPVP such a fail?

MaurgrimMaurgrim GothenburgPosts: 203Member Uncommon

I have read in many threads how GW2 made misstakes that for some reason made the PVP in the game a big fail, but what i never read so far is what are those misstakes Anet made that some people brings up all the time in GW2 forum and on other sub game forums.

For me I enjoy SPVP very much and WvWvW is very fun, sure there are zerges running around but hey we are talking about servers here, not 5v5 epeen kids doing their thing.

And I've read several posts about zergs are something bad in GW2 WvWvW, how is that bad, really I mean It's a frikkin server battle, didnt Allied troops zerged Germany in ww2? , Didn't USA and it's allies zerged Sadam?,  I mean what's so bad about zergs,? In my meaning a zerg is a army on a misson, Is that so bad?

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Comments

  • PiratePetePiratePete Harrison Township, MIPosts: 105Member

    It's not a fail persay. Just there's not much incentive to try harder than the competition (in WvW) If you're up against a server with huge population there's no drive or motivation to make your server try harder that week. 

    As for SPVP a lot of people have qualms with it because they can't match their pve or wvw builds with the limitations on stat modifiers with PVP armor.  That and the lack of gametype variety. It's all cap points which gets boring after awhile. 

     

    WvW Would be amazing if they could consistently have the three servers have a set number of players on and good incentives to try hard on it. 

     

    As it is now if we're getting rolled over I just take a break. 

  • PsistormPsistorm SomeplacePosts: 39Member Uncommon

    I think you confuse army with a zerg. Now an army uses its strategic resources smartly and tries to get the best result, conserve troops etc.

    On the other hand a zerg will not care. Basically imagine the allies going "lolololol" and running up omaha beach with guns blazing, never taking cover, dieing by the thousands and respawning, keeping up until the defenses were worn down by the endless swarm. THAT is a zerg. It's not tactical, its just throwing material at an issue until it goes away without really thinking about it. DPS being king here.

  • MaurgrimMaurgrim GothenburgPosts: 203Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Psistorm

    I think you confuse army with a zerg. Now an army uses its strategic resources smartly and tries to get the best result, conserve troops etc.

    On the other hand a zerg will not care. Basically imagine the allies going "lolololol" and running up omaha beach with guns blazing, never taking cover, dieing by the thousands and respawning, keeping up until the defenses were worn down by the endless swarm. THAT is a zerg. It's not tactical, its just throwing material at an issue until it goes away without really thinking about it. DPS being king here.

     

    What if a zerg defend your zerg?

  • BadaboomBadaboom Moose Jaw, SKPosts: 2,380Member

    For me it fails because it is an instance, removed from the world.  It's just an e-sport with no consequence.  I like to play open world pvp games with consequence, like Darkfall or Eve.

    For me, games like GW2 are short term fun. 

  • MaelzraelMaelzrael Las Cruces, NMPosts: 354Member Uncommon

    I don't think they are fail. WvWvW has had some issues, and the rewards for participation are lacking considering its one of the few options for endgame, but overall its also the only place to feel appreciated as a support/control class. Spvp I feel is the best thing in GW2 for casual fun. Maybe it doesnt work for the hardcore or something.. but personally I totally love it. 

     

    So....  I guess to each their own.. It's kinda like people saying that any MMO who doesn't have WOW-like numbers is "fail". In reality, an mmorpg only reaches "Fail" status when it shuts down. Until then there are usually players still enjoying it.. and that's all that matters. 

    image
  • thecapitainethecapitaine West Chester, PAPosts: 401Member Uncommon
    Considering DAoC is the forerunner for RvR MMOs, I wonder how the experience was there.  I never played more than a couple days so I'm curious if there was zerging and how realms dealt with big numbers imbalances from one side or the other.  In theory, the two underdogs are supposed to push against whomever is in the lead but has this ever worked in practice?  To what extent?  In any case, for lots of people there isn't any concrete reason why Wv3 doesn't appeal to them; it just doesn't.
  • djazzydjazzy louisville, COPosts: 3,578Member
    most of the complaints is about the reward structure
  • MaurgrimMaurgrim GothenburgPosts: 203Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Badaboom

    For me it fails because it is an instance, removed from the world.  It's just an e-sport with no consequence.  I like to play open world pvp games with consequence, like Darkfall or Eve.

    For me, games like GW2 are short term fun. 

     

    How is consequence working for you in EVE when you have 2+ billion ISKs to replace any losses you might take and how is consequence working for you in Darkfall when you have 50+ armour and weapons in your bank that you can use when you get ganked?

     

    EVE and Darkfall might sound hardcore but in reality it is not

  • BadaboomBadaboom Moose Jaw, SKPosts: 2,380Member
    Originally posted by Maurgrim
    Originally posted by Badaboom

    For me it fails because it is an instance, removed from the world.  It's just an e-sport with no consequence.  I like to play open world pvp games with consequence, like Darkfall or Eve.

    For me, games like GW2 are short term fun. 

     

    How is consequence working for you in EVE when you have 2+ billion ISKs to replace any losses you might take and how is consequence working for you in Darkfall when you have 50+ armour and weapons in your bank that you can use when you get ganked?

    You exaggerate personal ingame wealth.  Sure the hardcore gamer will accumulate a lot of stuff but I'm a casual player.  I play to have fun so if I'm low on stuff, I will farm more.

    Its one thing to have gear bags, but entirely another story when you have the best gear.  Great risk but you have a better chance of living and beating another person.  Dying still stings, and I wouldn't have it any other way.

  • MaurgrimMaurgrim GothenburgPosts: 203Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Badaboom
    Originally posted by Maurgrim
    Originally posted by Badaboom

    For me it fails because it is an instance, removed from the world.  It's just an e-sport with no consequence.  I like to play open world pvp games with consequence, like Darkfall or Eve.

    For me, games like GW2 are short term fun. 

     

    How is consequence working for you in EVE when you have 2+ billion ISKs to replace any losses you might take and how is consequence working for you in Darkfall when you have 50+ armour and weapons in your bank that you can use when you get ganked?

    You exaggerate personal ingame wealth.  Sure the hardcore gamer will accumulate a lot of stuff but I'm a casual player.  I play to have fun so if I'm low on stuff, I will farm more.

    Its one thing to have gear bags, but entirely another story when you have the best gear.  Great risk but you have a better chance of living and beating another person.  Dying still stings, but I wouldn't have it any other way.

     

    Dosen't dying in any game that have PVP stings, no matter how the game rules are?

  • BadaboomBadaboom Moose Jaw, SKPosts: 2,380Member
    Originally posted by Maurgrim
    Originally posted by Badaboom
    Originally posted by Maurgrim
    Originally posted by Badaboom

    For me it fails because it is an instance, removed from the world.  It's just an e-sport with no consequence.  I like to play open world pvp games with consequence, like Darkfall or Eve.

    For me, games like GW2 are short term fun. 

     

    How is consequence working for you in EVE when you have 2+ billion ISKs to replace any losses you might take and how is consequence working for you in Darkfall when you have 50+ armour and weapons in your bank that you can use when you get ganked?

    You exaggerate personal ingame wealth.  Sure the hardcore gamer will accumulate a lot of stuff but I'm a casual player.  I play to have fun so if I'm low on stuff, I will farm more.

    Its one thing to have gear bags, but entirely another story when you have the best gear.  Great risk but you have a better chance of living and beating another person.  Dying still stings, but I wouldn't have it any other way.

     

    Dosen't dying in any game that have PVP stings, no matter how the game rules are?

    That depends on the death penalty.  That said, in most of todays MMO's I would say the answer is no.

  • MaurgrimMaurgrim GothenburgPosts: 203Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Badaboom
    Originally posted by Maurgrim
    Originally posted by Badaboom
    Originally posted by Maurgrim
    Originally posted by Badaboom

    For me it fails because it is an instance, removed from the world.  It's just an e-sport with no consequence.  I like to play open world pvp games with consequence, like Darkfall or Eve.

    For me, games like GW2 are short term fun. 

     

    How is consequence working for you in EVE when you have 2+ billion ISKs to replace any losses you might take and how is consequence working for you in Darkfall when you have 50+ armour and weapons in your bank that you can use when you get ganked?

    You exaggerate personal ingame wealth.  Sure the hardcore gamer will accumulate a lot of stuff but I'm a casual player.  I play to have fun so if I'm low on stuff, I will farm more.

    Its one thing to have gear bags, but entirely another story when you have the best gear.  Great risk but you have a better chance of living and beating another person.  Dying still stings, but I wouldn't have it any other way.

     

    Dosen't dying in any game that have PVP stings, no matter how the game rules are?

    That depends on the death penalty.  That said, in most of todays MMO's I would say the answer is no.

     

    I would say every western MMO these days have low death penealty including EVE and Darkfall, in both games, join a good corp/guild and you dont have to worry about replacing anything.

    Harsh death penality are left behind with EQ and some odd Asian MMO.

  • FlyinDutchman87FlyinDutchman87 London MIlls, ILPosts: 247Member Uncommon

    The PvP isn't so much "fail" as it is..... not terribly well balanced and thought-out.  The main issue is that 99% of the time numbers trump skill. Without hard CC, uncapped AOE's, and powerful siege numbers are really the only thing that matters. When the only real strat for mass combat is to "stack" so it's hard to target individual players and to minimize the damage AOE's do to individuals you have a problem. As my warrior I pop my stability, pop my short invul and run into the fray spamming 1 and dodge.

     

    I understand that numbers advantages need to be there, but you should be able to fight 15v25 or 30v40 with good position and good players. In the current climate it's numbers and gear.  Not to mention the fact that owning land in WvW is meaningless outside of an arbitrary "point" system, that in itself has no real value, even to the winner.

     

     

  • MaurgrimMaurgrim GothenburgPosts: 203Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by FlyinDutchman87

     

    I understand that numbers advantages need to be there, but you should be able to fight 15v25 or 30v40 with good position and good players. In the current climate it's numbers and gear

     

     

    Yes It does happends

     

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5fxqLLEGMg

  • nerovipus32nerovipus32 dublinPosts: 2,735Member
    Because it's pointless and doesn't effect the world around you.
  • MaurgrimMaurgrim GothenburgPosts: 203Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nerovipus32
    Because it's pointless and doesn't effect the world around you.

     

    And Anet Advertised that how?

     

  • FlyinDutchman87FlyinDutchman87 London MIlls, ILPosts: 247Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Maurgrim

    Yes It does happends

     

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5fxqLLEGMg

     

    As my old finance teacher used to say.... that would be the exception that proves the rule.

     

    I'm not saying it NEVER happens. Hell I've been killed in a 3v1 where I was the three.... But i also was level 50 and in greens..

  • BadaboomBadaboom Moose Jaw, SKPosts: 2,380Member
    Originally posted by Maurgrim
    Originally posted by nerovipus32
    Because it's pointless and doesn't effect the world around you.

     

    And Anet Advertised that how?

     

    That wasn't the question. 

  • MaurgrimMaurgrim GothenburgPosts: 203Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by FlyinDutchman87
    Originally posted by Maurgrim

    Yes It does happends

     

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5fxqLLEGMg

     

    As my old finance teacher used to say.... that would be the exception that proves the rule.

     

    I'm not saying it NEVER happens. Hell I've been killed in a 3v1 where I was the three.... But i also was level 50 and in greens..

     

    Play with your guild and use your skills, but sadly most people who play WVWVW just follow the blue blip on the map, It's the guilds that make it fun like in all games.

    Play WvWvW like its a raid with your guild and you play WvWvW on a whole new level.

  • djazzydjazzy louisville, COPosts: 3,578Member
    it actually does affect you (well the WvW does) but anyway
  • MaurgrimMaurgrim GothenburgPosts: 203Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Badaboom
    Originally posted by Maurgrim
    Originally posted by nerovipus32
    Because it's pointless and doesn't effect the world around you.

     

    And Anet Advertised that how?

     

    That wasn't the question. 

     

    I think you missed the point.

  • MorcotulconMorcotulcon LisbonPosts: 262Member Common

    Problems with WvW:

    1-  Ability to change servers destroys a server community, because:

    a) the guilds are always moving servers when their server starts losing or there are too many dramas related to other issues (some of them I'm saying below).

    b) many players and guilds are always jumping to the high tier servers, the ones that have bigger fights (with more loot bags) and usually win their matchups, which cause too much queue in prime time (main EU servers problem) and too many players and guilds who don't care about the community inside the server they went to.

    c) some servers end up with very few people in WvW, beeing beated down by more populated servers. Other servers end up with too much people and queues that take 30 mins to 2 or 3 hours to get in WvW in prime-time. 

     

    2- Day/Night coverage, the concept might seem good on paper, but it's total bs on gameplay, specially in EU servers because:

    a) the server that has more players in night and morning hours wins, which means that only servers who have people that don't sleep or are in other another continent with different timezone, like America, will win against all other servers.

    b) servers who have less people outside of prime-time will always lose, specially if they lack more people in nights and mornings than the other 2 servers.

    c) most players will eventually leave the servers that have less coverage, because they want more epiuc fights (and more loot bags), and go to the most populated servers.

    d) When you have no one to fight against, it's boring as sh*t because you end up killing doors and upgrading stuff, which isn't really PVP, it's PVD (Player Vs Doors) and PVE (against guards, mercenaries, etc.)

     

    3- Completelly unbalance, which is what Arena-Net wants (they confirmed it some times already):

    Example - A guild raid can be really strong, but you won't find many guilds with 45+ every night and usually they will lose against blobs ( 60+ zergs, because there are so many things going on that most players get too much lag and can't use most of their skills at the right time).

     

    Problems with sPVP:

    1- Limited builds and lack in variety of which roles/classes to take.

    2- Arena-Net keeps making "Capture the Points" objective maps, which is boring and stupid because most PVP players like to kill and do other stuff. Where is "king of the Hill"? and "Deathmatches"? and "Duels!"?

     

     

    EDIT: had one thing in the wrong place. ^^

  • cagancagan new jersey, NJPosts: 281Member
    we used to do lots of WvW with my guild then realized its not fun after 2 weeks and stopped doing it. No keep claiming as a guild, no bonus to guilds like DAOC... its mindless zerg fast...
  • boxsndboxsnd Kraxton, ARPosts: 438Member Uncommon

    It's simple. Find the differences between DAoC's RvR (before ToA) and GW2's WvW and you will see why the one was almost perfect and the other one failed miserably.

     

    1) DAoC heavily prioritized killing players (PvP) over holding keeps. This made RvR mostly a PvP thing and not a PvE (or PvDoor as some say) thing. Also this gave a home to both casual players (zergers, keep fighters, relic fighters) and hardcore players (8v8, soloers, stealthers). GW2 does the opposite which makes it one dimensional and exclusively targeted towards casual players.

     

    2) DAoC had real endless PvP progression (the best one of any MMO to this day). GW2's WvW passives are weak and unimportant.

     

    3) In DAoC you faced the same people every week, in GW2 your opponents change and are nameless.

     

    4) In DAoC your enemies were different races, classes etc. In GW2 you fight against enemies that look and behave exactly like you. This made DAoC much more immersive.

     

    5) DAoC had a great CC system.  GW2 doesn't

     

    6) DAoC had a great stealth system. GW2 doesn't.

     

    7) In DAoC every kill/death was broadcast in the whole region. This helped create a better community. Some players and guilds became famous, infamous. You familiarized with your opponents as well. Everyone knew each other. In GW2 you don't know your allies, you certainly don't know your enemies. There is no real community.

     

    8) In DAoC you couldn't transfer to other servers. This made the community even better. You had to reroll. In GW2 you can transfer very often. 

     

    There is more but that was all I could think of in 5 minutes or so.

    DAoC - Excalibur & Camlann

  • eliteroelitero fremont, CAPosts: 263Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by boxsnd

    It's simple. Find the differences between DAoC's RvR (before ToA) and GW2's WvW and you will see why the one was almost perfect and the other one failed miserably.

     

    1) DAoC heavily prioritized killing players (PvP) over holding keeps. This made RvR mostly a PvP thing and not a PvE (or PvDoor as some say) thing. Also this gave a home to both casual players (zergers, keep fighters, relic fighters) and hardcore players (8v8, soloers, stealthers). GW2 does the opposite which makes it one dimensional and exclusively targeted towards casual players.

     

    2) DAoC had real endless PvP progression (the best one of any MMO to this day). GW2's WvW passives are weak and unimportant.

     

    3) In DAoC you faced the same people every week, in GW2 your opponents change and are nameless.

     

    4) In DAoC your enemies were different races, classes etc. In GW2 you fight against enemies that look and behave exactly like you. This made DAoC much more immersive.

     

    5) DAoC had a great CC system.  GW2 doesn't

     

    6) DAoC had a great stealth system. GW2 doesn't.

     

    7) In DAoC every kill/death was broadcast in the whole region. This helped create a better community. Some players and guilds became famous, infamous. You familiarized with your opponents as well. Everyone knew each other. In GW2 you don't know your allies, you certainly don't know your enemies. There is no real community.

     

    8) In DAoC you couldn't transfer to other servers. This made the community even better. You had to reroll. In GW2 you can transfer very often. 

     

    There is more but that was all I could think of in 5 minutes or so.

    It was sooo popular that it got carried to every game that was released after DAoC

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