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What do crafters want?

monochrome19monochrome19 Chicago, ILPosts: 453Member Uncommon

I'm sure many of you have seen the anime Sword Art Online. After watching it about a dozen times I came to the realization that one of my favorite episodes is the one with Lisbeth. Why? For some reason I felt it was so astronomically improbable for an MMO player to have a FAVORITE/DEDICATED crafter it blew my mind and sent my world into a tailspin (also, only being able to get rare crafting materials if you have a master level crafter in your party is genius!).

 

After playing a dozen or so MMOs (even FFXIV) crafting seems to be useless. Its not engaging, its not fun, it barely has a purpose, and it just seems to be there.

 

So, crafters, what would the perfect crafting system be? How would it work? How would it allow you to separate yourself from others?

 

The idea of having an in-game friend/crafter who I solely come to is so foreign and strange its exciting. Out of every crafter on a server what could possibly differentiate another crafter and make me want them and them only to forge my blade? If a system was implemented that made this possible I would probably enjoy crafting more than PvP.

 

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Comments

  • skylinethedemonskylinethedemon Rice Lake, WIPosts: 8Member
    Most crafting in my experience is fairly useless in MMO games. Don't get me wrong, there are a few places where crafting was useful, Vanilla wow when you actually needed fire resist, or nature resist gear to beat certain fights, Certain pieces of epic crafted loot were best in slot for a short time until you progressed deep into raids. But for the most part crafts are simply blown by for top end dungeon and basic raid loot. Crafting is tricky, if you make it too easy to level up, everyone will have it and its not useful, if you make it to hard, without some kind of reward for leveling it, then nobody cares.  Crafting in my opinion should always offer you at least some pieces of gear, that are on par with, or better than some raid or dungeon pieces. Now, i'm not saying you should be able to craft a whole top tier set and never have to raid, but a few pieces, or a nice weapon or something like that would be perfectly acceptable. Also i think just about every crafting system should offer each crafter a specialization, that makes you crafting gear specifically better, even if not by much, than another similar crafter, but not down the same path. A good example would be two crafters can make me the same sword, but one crafter specializes in defensive or tank items, their version of the weapon would be slighly better for a tank, but the other sword crafter specializes in damage dealing items, and his version is slightly better for a dps. Things like that would set you at least a little bit apart from other crafters and make people come to you more often.
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member

    Tales of the Desert .. the game is pretty much crafting focus.

    It is hard to have a game that does many things well. Many are arguing pvp and pve games should be separate. The same goes for crafting.

    I don't see deep crafting is necessarily (at least for me) in combat-centric games.

     

  • HelleriHelleri Felton, CAPosts: 927Member Uncommon

    What would comprise a useful and valuable crafting system is something I have actually thought long and hard about. First off, there are some major Do Not's which I will bullet point below:

     

    • Do not restrict what I can craft by anything other then my experience in crafting. I loath being unable to make a high level items despite possibly having the materials to do so, simply because my class or level would prohibit me from using the item myself.
     
    • Do not make DIY's/Recipes Mandatory for the creation or improvement of an item. While having a guide for how to make something is useful. I really can't stand when I have everything I should need to make something but can't because I have not been given that ability by an NPC or a lucky drop.
     
    • Do not minimize the use of game-entry-level materials in the end game or at higher levels. When higher levels of game play force the use of higher grade materials over that of low level mats, this takes from a newer players ability to contribute and feel as if they are valuable even more then just not being very useful combat wise. It is better for the game economically as a whole if the end-game simply requires a lot more of common low level materials (perhaps just refined to a greater degree). Rather then new materials all together.
     
    • Do not force the player to pick a single "job" or skill set and stick with it indefinitely or abandon it later for another. In order for a crafting system to really stand out to me. I need to be able to gather all materials needed to make something, refine them, and put them together myself. Un-reliant on turning over a specific part of the job to an enchanter or a jeweler or some other specialist. While having the ability to let someone else actually gather ore and leather for you is nice. I do not like when it is forced.
     
    All of these major Do Not's for me, speak to the point of my one major Do. That being:
     
     
    • Allow Crafters to be Crafters. If all someone wants to do in a game is collect materials, refine them and make them into cool gear and supplies. If they want to ignore questing, and combat and what ever the end-game-point is because what they enjoy doing is making things. If they want to build wealth and reputation off their ability to put out good products, as apposed to how well the do something like administrate a raid or run a dungeon...A game that boasts a good crafting system in my eyes, should facilitate that kind of play. It does not force their progression in the game over all in order to allow them to be better at the one thing they want to do.
     
    While a good crafting system can have excellent features. like the ability to have some sort of makers mark, or make better items by the simple practice of having made an item many times. While it may separate collection, refinement and assembly, into different skills that one can level apart from each other. The key in my mind for a good crafting system, is that the over all tone of the system is so well flushed out, that it becomes its own game within the game.

     

     

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  • apocolusterapocoluster newport news, VAPosts: 1,321Member Uncommon
      Crafters want a big bowl of Ramen noodles man...we all do. 

    No matter how cynical you become, its never enough to keep up - Lily Tomlin

  • FoomerangFoomerang Portland, ORPosts: 5,565Member Uncommon

    Here's what I want:

    I want my own stats relevant to crafting
    I want to make dyes
    I want to make slotted gear
    I want to make the augments that go in those slots
    I want a bunch of abilities related to the act of crafting
    I want a full set of gear specifically for crafting
    I want a crafting resource pool to manage
    I want heavy interdependence from other classes
    I want experimentation and be able to create a better quality product because of it
    I want housing and the ability to craft decor and furnishings for it
    I want a crafting niche in pvp
    I want to see my character actually craft stuff using tools relevant to their profession

    And I want it all wrapped in a cool fantasy setting with good production value, nice graphics, great music and a sub with no cash shop.

    Sound too good to be true? hehe

  • TraugarTraugar Robbinsville, NCPosts: 183Member Uncommon
    I really think SWG had the best crafting to date.  It could have been improved, but overall it was important to the game.  It was meaningful, and the best crafters were known. 
  • nennafirnennafir Greater New Orleans Metro Area, LAPosts: 283Member Uncommon

    What 99% (not all, I grant you!) crafters want:  A way to be able to do something boring that will give them an unfair advantage in the game (since no one else wants to do it because it is so boring.)

     

    What crafters should want:  A fun minigame that is enjoyable for its own sake.  Vanguard got it wrong on so many aspect, but diplomacy actually was a little bit fun.  Just look at Candy Crush Saga: Puzzle games are big business.  I am amazed that MMOs have not captured this with a crafting mini game that is actually fun that people want to play for its own sake.

  • crack_foxcrack_fox WellingtonPosts: 402Member
    We wanna be free. We wanna be free to do what we wanna do. And we wanna get loaded. And we wanna have a good time. 
  • DamonVileDamonVile Vancouver, BCPosts: 4,818Member
    Originally posted by nennafir

    What 99% (not all, I grant you!) crafters want:  A way to be able to do something boring that will give them an unfair advantage in the game (since no one else wants to do it because it is so boring.)

     

    What crafters should want:  A fun minigame that is enjoyable for its own sake.  Vanguard got it wrong on so many aspect, but diplomacy actually was a little bit fun.  Just look at Candy Crush Saga: Puzzle games are big business.  I am amazed that MMOs have not captured this with a crafting mini game that is actually fun that people want to play for its own sake.

    I laughed...till I realized you were serious.

  • DeivosDeivos Mountain View, CAPosts: 1,789Member Uncommon

    Well, generally i assume it's at a fundamental level the same for any other form of play. They want consequence.

     

    When you have components in a game that are marginalized by other modes of play it makes little sense. Crafting consequently needs to exist as it's own fleshed out mechanic that stands equally alongside every other.

     

    This does have application to combat, and gear in general. How gear is created and utilized in games needs to operate in a manner that fits comfortably both with finding loot and crafting it on equal terms if both means are to exist. Marginalizing one or the other makes for a imbalanced for of play that often means people are neglecting aspects of the game because they are seen as weak elements.

     

    The other aspect is crafters want to craft.

     

    What I mean by that is they want to have some creativity. In the same manner people like to personalize their character's appearances, there are many who wish to design, customize, discover, and simply tinker with both visual and meta elements of things. Allowing crafters to do more than stamp out the exact same object an indefinite amount of times and instead take a basic recipe and tweak the appearances or materials to change it up a bit goes a long way in making it a more involved and interesting system.

     

    On the most extreme end of the spectrum there is the example of Spore. For those that love the game, it was not for the generally shallow gameplay, it was for the editors. The ability to go in and create an up until then unseen variety of elements and have it all play together as a novel and very personal experience.

     

    Or the other hallmark example of Minecraft. All components are the same fundamental things, but what people have crafted out of cubes has seen a plethora of possibilities. From empires to electronics.

     

    There are crafters that love such things. When they can take a basic precept and mould something that they can regard as their very own.

     

    The ability to craft is the ability to create, and that is an aspect that can range from the most mundane to the most fantastic.

    "The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners."
    - Thomas B. Macaulay

  • DajagDajag Tucson, AZPosts: 55Member

    One of the dying aspects of what used to make MMORPG communities great, CRAFTING and HARVESTING. I aways said and stick to the statement, that Crafters are the glue that holds MMORPGs togather.

     

    I want to have to work as hard at my crafting skills as I do my adventuring skills.. and in my ideal MMORPG that would be very hard (because I like slow leveling curves)

    I want the freedom to create unquie items.. example  craft a sword where I get to choose the blade type, the hilt type, the colors, the augments, as long as I have learned the patterns.

    I want crafting Items to be relevent, from bags to armor to house items or what ever, I want the ability to craft gear that can be used in all facets of the game to include end game.

    I want to have to rely on other harvesters and crafters... If i am making a high end armor peice, i may need to get some high end leather from someone with more skill then me in that area, as well as gems and high end harvested metal ect...

    I want everything short of fabled style Items to be craftable.. (as long as fabled style items are extreamly rare) and it would be cool to have fabled material which chould be used to craft fabled items.

    I want to have to adventure to learn new crafting skills/ patterens.. Like having to travel to some dark cave and meet an NPC Oger that can teach me new blade styles, make it hard and fun.

    I dont want crafting to be repeditive... Make 200 widgets and clog up all your inventory and lose all your gold in the process, and not be able to sell any of them on the market.

    I want crafting to be game within a game, hard and fun.

     

     

  • MorrokMorrok MunichPosts: 130Member


    Originally posted by DamonVile

    Originally posted by nennafir
    What 99% (not all, I grant you!) crafters want...

    I laughed...till I realized you were serious.

    I couldn't laugh, just think "what a piece of cr.."!
    Especially when he mentioned "puzzle games".

    IMO people want to play a game, not a game in a game.
    (Unless it's stuff like Poker or so in a bar where it fits storywise)
    Crafting needs imo to be integrated in such a way that it's a logical/natural "extention" of the game, not a different game.

    Crafting needs to be worthwhile doing.
    How is it worthwhile?
    If every item in the game can be crafted (and has it's use, even if it's the first combine a noob makes in the game even after years after release), and/or the results are equal to or better than drops.
    Crafting is even more worthwhile if other players/factions/the world "depend" on crafting.
    And, as was mentioned above, a crafter wants to leave his "mark" in the world, e.g. by developing a new combine or "stamping"/watermarking his products (unique looks and/or stats).

  • MorrokMorrok MunichPosts: 130Member


    Originally posted by Dajag
    I want crafting to be game within a game, hard and fun.

    Really?

    Since it was mentioned several times now and i can so not imagine it to be true i thought i'd ask:
    Do you REALLY want to play, say, Teris in order to play a house in your MMO?
    (a game in a game)

    Or wouldn't you rather build a house by first chopping down the trees, cutting them up in a saw mill (or use your axe to build a log house) and use the planks to build the walls that make up the house, to be topped with a roof you build from, say, reed or shingles?

  • AldersAlders Jack Burton'sPosts: 1,857Member Uncommon

    Crafting should be something difficult to master and extremely relevant to the overall gear progression of an MMO.

    This everyone can level every craft in less than a month nonsense needs to stop.  There's absolutely no point to even have crafting in an MMO if anyone and everyone can master any craft.

    It should be an arduous process requiring the help of an entire guild feeding mats to a few players completely dedicated to their craft.

    Until something to this extent happens, crafting is pointless in modern MMO's.  It'll remain a side project to speed through when you have nothing else going on.  It's only function will remain self sufficiency.

  • TraugarTraugar Robbinsville, NCPosts: 183Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nennafir

    What 99% (not all, I grant you!) crafters want:  A way to be able to do something boring that will give them an unfair advantage in the game (since no one else wants to do it because it is so boring.)

     

    What crafters should want:  A fun minigame that is enjoyable for its own sake.  Vanguard got it wrong on so many aspect, but diplomacy actually was a little bit fun.  Just look at Candy Crush Saga: Puzzle games are big business.  I am amazed that MMOs have not captured this with a crafting mini game that is actually fun that people want to play for its own sake.

    You don't know any real crafters do you?  Doesn't sound like you have ever played a game where crafting mattered.  Just to clarify for you.  We aren't talking about WoW style crafting here. 

  • eimaiegoeimaiego thessalonikiPosts: 24Member
    I dont really know what crafters want, every game they cry and cry and cry, they complain and complain and complain its disgusting

    ololo

  • FoomerangFoomerang Portland, ORPosts: 5,565Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by eimaiego
    I dont really know what crafters want, every game they cry and cry and cry, they complain and complain and complain its disgusting

    I agree. I think some of it may have to do with an entire generation of WoW style crafters. Self serving, best in slot chasing, drag n drop crafters, who have no idea what customer service or friendly trade means.

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,460Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by monochrome19

    I

    The idea of having an in-game friend/crafter who I solely come to is so foreign and strange its exciting. Out of every crafter on a server what could possibly differentiate another crafter and make me want them and them only to forge my blade? If a system was implemented that made this possible I would probably enjoy crafting more than PvP.

     

    That was Lineage 2 every single day.

    You had crafters who had certain recipes or who you trusted to actually take your mats and make something.

     

  • ZapzapZapzap Someplace, WYPosts: 224Member Uncommon

    Crafters want a game like Horizons where you can change the world and use crafting to reach other areas.

    In crafters crafeers were able to tunnel out a mountain over months to reach a new leveling area.  They were able to build bridges to unreachable islands.  They could fix up harvesting and crafting stations around the world. Unfortunately the adventuring portion oft he game was terrible.

    Crafters want many other things.  Such as non 1 click challenging mechanics similar to Vanguard. Long and difficult leveling so not everyone can be a master in their craft. Limited recipes so not everyone can make the same items. Ability to participate in endgame. Housing and building.  Something similar to Rift's building would be amazing. Ability to build towns and cities.  special group crafting recipes similar to what vanguard had planned and never finished.

    Crafters want many things but being able to build, create and change the world would make them very happy. Most of all Crafters want to be useful and needed.

  • MindTriggerMindTrigger La Quinta, CAPosts: 2,596Member

    Crafters want crafting to matter, and they want it to be fun.  The tacked on crafting we see in today's MMORPG games is boring, and largely pointless.

    Speaking for myself, I'd like to see more games make crafting a full non-combat gameplay path. 

    A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.

  • apocolusterapocoluster newport news, VAPosts: 1,321Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Zapzap

    Crafters want a game like Horizons where you can change the world and use crafting to reach other areas.

    In crafters crafeers were able to tunnel out a mountain over months to reach a new leveling area.  They were able to build bridges to unreachable islands.  They could fix up harvesting and crafting stations around the world. Unfortunately the adventuring portion oft he game was terrible.

    Crafters want many other things.  Such as non 1 click challenging mechanics similar to Vanguard. Long and difficult leveling so not everyone can be a master in their craft. Limited recipes so not everyone can make the same items. Ability to participate in endgame. Housing and building.  Something similar to Rift's building would be amazing. Ability to build towns and cities.  special group crafting recipes similar to what vanguard had planned and never finished.

    Crafters want many things but being able to build, create and change the world would make them very happy. Most of all Crafters want to be useful and needed.

       Last sentence hit the nail on the head...I disagree with just about everyting else you posted...but Last sentence is the truth man..

    No matter how cynical you become, its never enough to keep up - Lily Tomlin

  • bcbullybcbully Westland, MIPosts: 8,278Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by monochrome19

     

    The idea of having an in-game friend/crafter who I solely come to is so foreign and strange its exciting. Out of every crafter on a server what could possibly differentiate another crafter and make me want them and them only to forge my blade? If a system was implemented that made this possible I would probably enjoy crafting more than PvP.

     

    I know some will grown, but OP this paragraph is Age of Wushu. Here's why people have go to/favorite/only use crafters.

     

    First when a crafter makes a item in Wushu there are 1-8 enchantment slots depending on the grade of the item being made. 

     

    Next when enchanting items, you get one line of stats per enchant. Depending on the level of crafter, there is a chance that an item that is supposed to have, say 4 lines may "dud" out at 3, or 2, or even 1. If it duds, it's the crafters fault. 

     

    Third each enchant is a random roll depended upon the grade of the item and the level of the enchanter. Iron 6-12, Copper 8-13 ect. 

     

    Fourth most items require two professios to enchant. For example the first line of a chest requires a tailor,next a poison maker, then a tailor again until done or dud. 

     

    5th, not all crafters of the same profession have the same recipes. Some guys have mats and make swords. Some guys have mats and make boots. 

     

    Most importantly all items are made by players. What this all leads to is you having your guy.  The guy you trust/love/have the most luck with. Most people will wait, until their guy is online. 

  • PsistormPsistorm SomeplacePosts: 39Member Uncommon

    Basically put.. crafters should be meaningful. What does that mean? Several things.

     

    Crafters should provide things you can't otherwise get. At all. That creates a supply and demand, making trade meaningful.

    Also, they should be able to provide good gear, or provide gear that is otherwise special (like wildstars approach of letting crafters most likely alter the stat distribution of a given base template).

    Very important: they should be their own thing. Like no wow-style tacked-on crafting everyone does on the side. More on the lines of FF14 crafting, where you can get good results if you are dedicated and put in work. To everyone who says ff14 crafting is useless.. look again. Sure the leveling might not be hard, but as far as gear goes, crafters can make the best stuff or at least some of it.

    But as for "being their own thing", I also mean that a crafter should not have to partake in the adventuring game /at all/. Recipes should be BoE, and materials should mostly be tradable. Have a commission crafting system so that raiders can, for example, farm BoP raid materials, then go to a skilled crafter and commission an item from these BoP materials. EQ2 had something of that sort, and it was glorious.

    Crafting should also have gear and mechanics. Again, look to FF14 and EQ2 as for how it can be done right. EQ2 especially gave crafters big recognition by titles, fancy gear, mounts, and putting your name on what you made. FF14 does other things right, like the crafting minigame, which in my eyes is fairly brilliant and feels pretty much where it should be. A bit more skill and a bit less math would be nice, but it is worlds better than what is out there currently.

    Housing also ties into crafting, having a furniture maker who can build you things you can't simply buy on merchants. basically making them relevant even more.

    Lastly, the role of crafters is also determined by the type of game. In a full-on sandbox MMO, I would be all for a 100% player/crafter based economy. Meaning what people don't craft doesn't exist. No NPC vendors, barely any item loot, no pre-built structures outside the starting areas if you want the extreme of it.

    Meanwhile in themeparks, find definite tasks for crafters. Like being able to enhance gear, provide alternate gearing, or provide gear for off-classes (FF14 did that nicely, making your alts either gear through dungeons or crafting if you ran out of quests to grind alt jobs with. They should have focused more on crafting suppliers though), or other similar things.

    So in short, crafters need to be dedicated classes that stand apart from the adventurer, but who have a distinct purpose in the game and have their own level, gear, and material progression.

  • CryomatrixCryomatrix Cambridge, MAPosts: 801Member

    I like to think of myself as a crafter but not many games had that ability for me to be a crafter.

    At the end of the day, I think crafters want recognition and a niche. However, it is done, we want recognition and a niche.

    I briefly played SWG but had a friend hand me the best mats in the past 3-4 years. I made weapons and i had a weapon store. People came to me for weapons. I'd get texts from people who needed a weapon. That was awesome. I was the weapon maker. I am sure there were others who made weapons, but i was a known weapon maker. That's what a crafter wants.

    1) the ability to be known for what you craft.

    I think one way to accomplish this is to have crafting require the following.

    Piece A
    Piece B
    Piece C

    This makes the overall item

    Piece A would require a combo of pieces X and Y
    PIece B would require a combo of pieces S and T
    Piece C would require a combo of pieces W and Z

    Each of the pieces w,z, x, y, s, and t would require base materials found from harvesting or looting. A crafter would have the ability to perfect crafting at many various levels. For example, you could go to one crafter who put skills and everything into crafting Piece C another one would perfect piece B and then another for piece C. You'd be the crafter to perfect the overall item. Hence, many people could have a niche in the market just to craft one item.

    My thoughts.

  • koboldfodderkoboldfodder Danbury, DEPosts: 390Member Uncommon

    SWG.  You really do not have to look any farther than this game.  It had the best resource/harvesting system in any game and the best crafting system of any game.  It also went one step further when Jump to Lightspeed launched, and the space crafting+reverse engineering system was also the best crafting adaption when it came to loot.

     

    If you never played it, you missed out.  Not on the actual game.  The nuts and bolts of SWG never worked properly.  It was always a buggy mess.  But the systems of the game were incredible and have yet to be approached by any game let alone duplicated.

     

    SWG crafting is what crafters want.  I am not talking about part time crafters, like in WOW or LOTRO or whatever themepark MMO, but a dedicated crafting class that has actual impact on the world.  SWG had that.  Ultima Online had it as well.  Horizons also had it, but that game never got off the ground.

     

    Just give me SWG crafting.  If it is a fantasy world, just copy and past all the SWG stuff in there and fantasy it up.

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