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[Column] Elder Scrolls Online: Are Four Classes Enough?

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  • SteelhelmSteelhelm LahtiPosts: 44Member
    For me it's not about that little tag beside the character portrait saying lvl 6 paladin, but it's about what your character can do in the game. If there would be just four classes with no variety in skills, who would play this game...

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  • SulherokSulherok Jim Thorpe, PAPosts: 18Member
    Pretty sure there was supposed to be 5... think the 5th one was the Warden class but guess they holding that one for a content patch.
  • OlgarkOlgark BostonPosts: 319Member Uncommon

    You have 50 skill lines at release to choose from. The classes are only skill sets to make the game easier to access for the WoW crowd that are use to seeing a class system.

    Each skill set has been given a name hence

    Dragon Knight the warrior skill set.

    Templar the healing skill set.

    Nightblade the rogue skill set.

    Sorcerer the mage skill set.

    After that you can have a choice between armour and weapons to use. There are no restrictions to a mage useing heavy armour and a two handed sword. As you use these your skill with them increases.

    You then also have skills you pick up from PvE and PvP as well as the fighters guild and mages guild at release. In the end you will not have classes but a distinct character that you build much like the single player games of TES.

    You all need to learn to read information about a game before you come here and bash it on false pretence. That includes the writer of the article.

    image

  • Po_ggPo_gg Twigwarren, WestfarthingPosts: 2,712Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Sovrath

    Since you can use, mix, match any skill does it really matter?

    If  you look at the Elder Scrolls games that list "classes" (such as Daggerfall, Morrowind, Oblvion) all the classes are just various subdivisions of the available skills.

    I agree with Sovrath. If the customisation and the foundation for theory crafting is good, class number isn't really matters. STO has only 3 classes, TSW has 0, and while I'm not a big Rift'er, Rift has only 4 as well technically... (with 36 souls)

     

    So for Bill's questions, What do you think of having just four classes in Elder Scrolls Online? Is it enough for the game the developers are designing? Based on what leaked so far about character building, I think it might be enough for a headstart and guideline for those who need it.

    Do you see it mostly as a way to keep things simple in terms of the three-faction PVP of Cyrodiil? Of the three-fa... what? Oh, Cyrodiil... who cares? :)

  • PhryPhry HampshirePosts: 6,288Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Olgark

    You have 50 skill lines at release to choose from. The classes are only skill sets to make the game easier to access for the WoW crowd that are use to seeing a class system.

    Each skill set has been given a name hence

    Dragon Knight the warrior skill set.

    Templar the healing skill set.

    Nightblade the rogue skill set.

    Sorcerer the mage skill set.

    After that you can have a choice between armour and weapons to use. There are no restrictions to a mage useing heavy armour and a two handed sword. As you use these your skill with them increases.

    You then also have skills you pick up from PvE and PvP as well as the fighters guild and mages guild at release. In the end you will not have classes but a distinct character that you build much like the single player games of TES.

    You all need to learn to read information about a game before you come here and bash it on false pretence. That includes the writer of the article.

    huge problem with those skill sets, for one thing, restoration is part of the mage/sorcerer skill set, its just one of the schools of magic after all, why does the templar class even exist, isnt it just a subset of the warrior class?  it just doesnt make sense? at least if its a game professing to be based on TES, they should at least try to use TES skill sets for classes etc rather than bending them all out of shape to try and conform to the rule sets for a completely different game.image

  • VoqarVoqar Phoenix, AZPosts: 498Member

    I'm surprised the game even has classes since freedom has always been the way of ES.

     

    I would imagine that 4 will be enough, because there are only so many archetypes and everything else is a hybrid or derivative.  I would assume one can do distinctly different things with each class to fill in the games and offer up variety.

     

    One thing that's for sure, they are making some really interesting decisions with this game that could end up being a disaster - or something remarkable.

    Premium MMORPGs do not feature built-in cheating via cash for gold pay 2 win. PLAY to win or don't play.

  • EluwienEluwien EspooPosts: 166Member

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  • SatyrosSatyros Posts: 134Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by vmoped
    Originally posted by bexinh
    4 classes are not enough imo. I prefer a game with diversity having as many classes as possible. That's why i love games like EQ. But as i understand having many classes the developer needs to balance them out which is really hard work, and i guess ppl dont like hard work.

    There are so many various skill lines that class matters little in the end.  From what has been released, classes comprise of 3 skill lines, plus there is racial, weapons (multiple), armor (multiple), guild (multiple), pvp, emperor, vampire (possibly), werewolf (possibly), with more to be added as the game develops.

     

    I would rather have a game with fewer class options that allows me a great deal of customization than a game with many classes and little customization.  ESO lets you build any class into any role you want.  Mage can be a tank in any armor with any weapon, rogue can be a healer with any armor with any weapon, and guess what, you can swap roles with the swap of your weapon set (which also swaps your action bar).

     

    Last I checked balancing more customization options is harder than balancing many classes.  More customization means more possibility to min/max.

    Cheers!

     
     

     

     

    Yap, sums it up. Enough said.

  • Abuz0rAbuz0r Lexington, KYPosts: 354Member Uncommon

    Apparently most of the responses didn't bother to read the article.  I don't think the OP has played any Elder Scrolls games.  This article is not good for ESO.  Please read my elder scrolls insider take on the classless system:

    0 classes are necessary in this game, they just added 4 classes because classless games are not widely accepted.

    Elder Scrolls is a classless game.  You can make a heavy armor tank that kills his opponents with lightning and fireballs if you carefully build your skills to do such.

    In elder scrolls you typically havea couple dozen abilities, the abilities are leveled by implementation, swinging a 1 handed weapon will slowly raise the 1 handed weapon skill.  At level 40 1 handed you get a perk, like 20% more damage with 1 handed weapons.  At level 80 you might get a perk like the chance to disarm your opponent.  Usually there's about 20 perks per skill as you level it up.

    The classes in Elder Scrolls just are : 25 starting in these 2 stats, 30 in this one stat, 15 in about 3 more.  And the different classes just rearrange those numbers, while all the other stats remain at 10 to start.   Its simply initial positioning on the stat tree.

    Go and buy morrowind, it's a 10$ oldie, but you will see how it works.

  • RodentofdoomRodentofdoom NottinghamPosts: 273Member

    #1 Warrior

    #2 Rogue

    #3 Wizard

    #4 Priest

     

    4 classes seems to be plenty to me

    That's how D&D was back in the day, extra classes were added over time but they were either refinements (specialisations) of the above 4, or a hybrid class produced by combining 2-3 of the above classes.

    and to be fair, that's all most mmo's offer .. you might think it offers you more choice, but this is the basis they started from. it's a tried & tested formula that works and has done since the 70's

  • MuffinStumpMuffinStump Frankfort, KYPosts: 474Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Abuz0r

    Apparently most of the responses didn't bother to read the article.  I don't think the OP has played any Elder Scrolls games.  This article is not good for ESO.  Please read my elder scrolls insider take on the classless system:

    0 classes are necessary in this game, they just added 4 classes because classless games are not widely accepted.

    Elder Scrolls is a classless game.  You can make a heavy armor tank that kills his opponents with lightning and fireballs if you carefully build your skills to do such.

    In elder scrolls you typically havea couple dozen abilities, the abilities are leveled by implementation, swinging a 1 handed weapon will slowly raise the 1 handed weapon skill.  At level 40 1 handed you get a perk, like 20% more damage with 1 handed weapons.  At level 80 you might get a perk like the chance to disarm your opponent.  Usually there's about 20 perks per skill as you level it up.

    The classes in Elder Scrolls just are : 25 starting in these 2 stats, 30 in this one stat, 15 in about 3 more.  And the different classes just rearrange those numbers, while all the other stats remain at 10 to start.   Its simply initial positioning on the stat tree.

    Go and buy morrowind, it's a 10$ oldie, but you will see how it works.

    Many posters didn't even read the article (however it tries to be bluntly provocative) I doubt they will read your informed post.

     

    As you say, they are likely giving these archetypes/pathways/classes as a nod to the hordes of players used to at least some form of traditional class structure. "4 classes!?!" Give them an open skill structure and people say they "don't know where to begin" and "how do I know what kind of player/role that other person is?". Give them 10 classes even with open skill choice and they say "why not 40?" or "this isn't like Skyrim!".

     

    I call this the USA Today effect (or FOX News effect if you really want to bring them out to play)

     

  • DeathWolf2uDeathWolf2u Maryville, ILPosts: 291Member

    Well....where to begin......I guess I'll start off with I was a beta tester and I skipped the last two invites to play/test ESO again. Why? I'll try to explain my point of view without breaking the NDA.....too much.....

     

    Here is a fact, I am a true 'Elder Scolls' fan and by that I mean I really love the series.  After play testing ESO twice I walked away from it feeling like it only had a few real 'Elder Scrolls' elements but felt more like just another mmo being spewed out.

     

    Regardless that this is a beta two core elements are there and will be part of 'ESO' on release; A. character building and B. game world/environment. The only way around this is if these two elements are completely scrapped and rebuilt which seems highly unlikely.

     

    Character Building: No stats - that's right no STR., DEX, etc. etc. that you can select to raise or even view. Skills: Can select what skills you want from the list and then after leveling those skills can select to upgrade them. No Free form Character: That's right....what 'Elder Scrolls' fans love about building your character however you want is completely gone. Four classes is correct and if you build a warrior or archer class you can use other weapons as well but you will not be able to work on spellcasting at all. If you want to dabble in spellcasting you will need to build a spellcaster and choose if you really want to use a weapon over a staff.

    I kept an open mind when play testing and even though character progression/building wasn't true 'Elder Scrolls' it was still fun, just not as fun.

     

    Gameworld/Environment: Had a somewhat 'Elder Scrolls' feel but really felt more like just another typical mmo environment.

     

    So when the next beta invites came around I skipped it. I didn't have the drive to want to delve into 'ESO' again, the feeling just wasn't there.

     

    What I did do was go out and buy 'Oblivion' for my PS3 and start playing that again. So what happened was I was reinvigorated to play a true 'Elder Scrolls' game again after testing 'ESO'. 'ESO' just didn't cut it for me and I don't view this title as good enough to justify a monthly fee. I am all for a subscription based mmo if it's worth it and in my own opinion I don't feel this title is.

     

    They should of put more effort into developing another true 'Elder Scrolls' game for the fans than an attempt to bring it into the mmo world which it clearly was never mean't to be..

     

     

     

  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Elmira, ONPosts: 2,493Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by FlyinDutchman87

    The number of classes is just that.... A number.

     

    it depends how they define a "class". Is it a framework that has 2-3 individual talent tree's.

     

    Is it a basis for which armor/weapons you'll be able to use?

     

    in some games a "class" is just what ability you start with. In some games there are no classes and it's all up in the air.

     

    TLDR: I need to see it and play it before I can  decide. 

     

     

     

    +1 I totally agree! 

     

    Before MoP or even Cata, I feel like WoW was an MMO where you felt like you had some distinct decisions about skill and ability progression and where you spent your talent points. I felt like you play style could ultimately determine how you spent your points. Now, not so much. Obviously each class could have multiple roles, but within that class and role there is really only one, MAYBE two logical progressions. The class/role you choose ultimately determines your tree, your play style no longer has an impact. 

     

    So if it's something more like PoE where your progression could be all over the map then, well, you could argue that you don't need classes at all. 

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,451Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by rojo6934

    I remember when i created a character in Morrowind and had to pick from a bagillion archetypes. Now you have a more modern TES game turned into an mmo and all you get is 4 classes?

     

    It is very good that you can wear any type of armors and use any type of weapons but THAT IS NOT a reason to reduce class archetypes to 4. The fact that there will be classes in the game despite all the flexibility, it means that you can build a specific class and benefit form that class' stats. It needs more classes.

     

    THe more i read about TESO the more i want to stay with the single player side of the franchise.

     

    I would argue that's semantics but only provided that similiar skills are available in TESO.

    For instance, you say that there were a bajillion archetypes (which obviously is hyperbole) but those archetypes were really in name only.

    so I could make a  bard and use the "suggested" skills but take those exact same skills and name it something else. Like "Kiyoshi Warrior" just for argument's sake.

    Specializationimage

    • Personality
    • Intelligence

    Major Skillsimage

     
    So my Kiyoshi warrior is a master of the blade but also a master of deception, making people believe what he/she wants them to believe. They can also manipulate markets to their advantage and use their impressive presence as well as great intelligence to read a situation and use all available information to gain them the upper hand.
     
    And yet the Kiyoshi Warrior has nothing to do with stories, history, music, etc.
     
    See? Same skills but completley different take on what those skills mean.
     
    Which means that the "bard" archetype is really cosmetic only.
     
    So having a bajillion archetypes is really more for the single player game and allowign the player to flavor their character the way they want. I suspect enforcing 4 names is more about giving players a sense of what they start out as and not allowing for the naming of your own custom class is about clarity for all players involved.
  • sketocafesketocafe StoupaPosts: 801Member Uncommon

    I don't even know anyone who works for ZOS, why is every design choice they make geared to upset me. Are they stalking me? Can they see me right now?

     

  • rwyanrwyan raleigh, NCPosts: 461Member

    Am I the only one who is confused as to why ESO has classes to begin with?  I kind of understand that each class as its own set of uniquely themed abilities... but still.

     

     

  • glakunsglakuns Columbus, OHPosts: 3Member

    Breaking it down, each class is a battlemage.  Dragonknight is a battlemage just like the Sorcerer is a battlemage.  Most of the active skills out of all of the classes cost Magicka (magic) to use.  The only skill lines you cannot use out of the 50 skill lines in the game are the 9 skill lines from the other 3 classes.  There are 5 active skills per class skill line.  At end game, few class skills will be in use to make up for lack of utility skills on the archetype's weapon.

    Dragonknight

    • Fire mage
    • Earth mage
    • Dragon mage
    Templar
    • Sun mage
    • Spear mage
    • Light (heal restoration) mage
    Sorcerer
    • Lightening mage
    • Summoner (weapons, armor, curses, and Daedra)
    • Psionic mage
    Nightblade
    • Assassination mage
    • Shadow mage
    • Siphoning (absorb restoration) mage
    Archetypes are only defined by the weapon/armor OR class skill line you use.  Swap weapons to use a second Archetype
    • Tanking
      • One Hand & Shield & Heavy Armor OR Dragonknight
    • Melee DPS & Medium Armor OR Nightblade
      • Dual Wield
      • 2-Handed
    • Ranged DPS
      • Bow & Medium Armor OR Templar
      • Destruction Staff & Light Armor OR Sorcerer OR Templar OR Dragonknight
    • Healing/Support
      • Restoration Staff & Light Armor OR Templar
  • OzivoisOzivois Phoenix, AZPosts: 598Member

    Sounds like there are not even 4 classes since each of the four can play the same roles. I really miss games where you had to choose a specific class, the class of which played a specific role, and each class by nature has it's own style of gameplay required to master it. If you wanted to play multiple roles you have to roll multiple characters.

     

    I miss that.

  • shalissarshalissar Pohjois-PohjanmaaPosts: 294Member Uncommon
    Depends on how deep the specialization is, I guess. I always thought ES were more about skills and not classes
  • VidirVidir GothenburgPosts: 944Member Uncommon
    If the game is good and fun you dont need classes, one class is enough.
  • WizardryWizardry Ontario, CanadaPosts: 8,423Member Uncommon

    FFXI has  over 20 and all are very unique,so having 4 and making an excuse that you can only make a versatile or unique player with 4 ,i am not buying it at all.

    The ONLY reason a developer goes LESS of the tougher content to produce is to save cost,it is never for the good of the game.It is MUCH easier to just make statistical changes for each class than actually making and designing everything that goes with a new class.This is why games use these lame TREE designs,it is simple to add plus 4 dmg or plus 4 defense via leveling tree points.

    It almost sounds like the developer was so used to making single player games,they got caught up in workload when they realized that making a bunch of classes is actually hard work.I remember a VERY old game like FF3 had around 10-12 classes and all were totally unique.

    Imo a starting point would be around 6-10,but i would expect that to grow to at least 10-12 within a year or two.

    When developers release so little assets it leaves too much room for them to make and sell you expansion packs.Example the game should have say 10 classes,well they give you 4 then spend the next 3 expacks selling you the next 6 classes.


    Samoan Diamond

  • AroukosAroukos AthensPosts: 571Member
    Originally posted by Wizardry

    FFXI has  over 20 and all are very unique,so having 4 and making an excuse that you can only make a versatile or unique player with 4 ,i am not buying it at all.

    The ONLY reason a developer goes LESS of the tougher content to produce is to save cost,it is never for the good of the game.It is MUCH easier to just make statistical changes for each class than actually making and designing everything that goes with a new class.This is why games use these lame TREE designs,it is simple to add plus 4 dmg or plus 4 defense via leveling tree points.

    It almost sounds like the developer was so used to making single player games,they got caught up in workload when they realized that making a bunch of classes is actually hard work.I remember a VERY old game like FF3 had around 10-12 classes and all were totally unique.

    Imo a starting point would be around 6-10,but i would expect that to grow to at least 10-12 within a year or two.

    When developers release so little assets it leaves too much room for them to make and sell you expansion packs.Example the game should have say 10 classes,well they give you 4 then spend the next 3 expacks selling you the next 6 classes.

     

    Very very true

  • BigsMajereBigsMajere portland, ORPosts: 1Member
    While having just four classes is somewhat alien to the modern gamer we must, as gamers, remember that when they release with 8, 10, or 20 classes the amount of bugs, glitches, and game killing CTD's will increase exponentially. I would much rather have a simpler game to begin until they get all the bugs (or at least most) hammered out and then see new classes/races/specialties released in content patches or expansions. Their jobs will be hard enough as it is and it is gamers like I who will have to listen to the incessant whining on the forums and in-game chat!!
  • rahj83rahj83 Pittsburgh, PAPosts: 77Member
    I thought for sure they would go the old school Asheron's Call way. It would be the most logical.

    image

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,451Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by DeathWolf2uNo Free form Character: That's right....what 'Elder Scrolls' fans love about building your character however you want is completely gone. Four classes is correct and if you build a warrior or archer class you can use other weapons as well but you will not be able to work on spellcasting at all. If you want to dabble in spellcasting you will need to build a spellcaster and choose if you really want to use a weapon over a staff.

     

    They should of put more effort into developing another true 'Elder Scrolls' game for the fans than an attempt to bring it into the mmo world which it clearly was never mean't to be..

     

     

     

    So a character can't use a weapon and a staff at the same time?

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