Exactly what you have been doing to FF14 over and over and over and over. Oh, and EVE.......it's not really that huge.It's more of a financial success than a success as a great game. If it wasn't for CCP ingeniously figuring out how to exploit the lower to mediocre players, the game's unique active playerbase would probably be lucky to break into the high 5/ low 6 figure in population. The vast majority of their claim to half million subs is all PLEX that funnles huge advantages in the form of those extra accounts to the big boys. By most current standards, based on it's population (not subs) it's a niche game.
Am i surprised you are trying to downplay the success of EVE? nope. And nope it is not exactly the same thing. If people who with straight face are saying that FFXIV is more challenging than EVE then they must also believe that every single themepark MMO since WOW is in same threshold of challenge.
EVE on whole is a complex game so it is just dishonest to pick up something like 'missions' and to try to disregard rest of the game on basis of that. Where as in FFXIV like every other single themepark MMO that came before it the only little challenge that comes is in hard modes. So please pray tell how it is exactly the same thing.
I did not say EVE was (or wasn't) more challenging than FF14. I said that EVE was not as big a game as people want to make it out to be. Since you said it was HUGE. It's not.
I am and I am not downplaying EVE's success at least not financially. 500K subs is no laughing matter. However, as a game, the active player base does not reflect this success. Its business model is far more successful that the game itself. But that's something else altogether.
1) My blacklist is 3x the size of my friendslist (and growing) because there's no community.
In order to have any kind of meaningful interaction with people, you're going to have to constantly update your blacklist. The rampant, unchecked gold-seller spamming via the shout, yell, and say channels are intolerable. Even when you handle it that way, you're going to get /tells from them every single day. Blacklistling isn't even effective, because if you blacklist one, you can rest assured that a new one will take it's place to /tell you within 30 minutes. This has completely and utterly ruined interaction and the community of the game. It makes bolstering your FC's ranks even more intolerable, as there's no real way to advertise other than by running dungeons with people who are on your server.
2) The end-game is literally non-existent.
For a game that's released twice, there's simply no meat to it. The end-game consists of running Amdapor Keep and Castrum Meridanum dozens of times over for tomes. It's not only not challenging, it's not fun either. Bahamut's Coil is ok, but even then, it's not that long, and the timer on it insures that you can't run it as often as you'd like. Furthermore, when you hit end-game, you need Mythology tomes; however, the hard cap on them (300 seals a week) prevents you from being able to progress at your own pace for no reason. In a game that has no end-game, the notion that even further limitations on the already-absent end-game is simple lunacy. You have nothing to do except farm seals, and wait. Expecting people to want to level other classes and crafts = / = meaningful content.
3) End-game crafting is essentially worthless.
Congratulations; you got your craft to 50! Time to crank out that epic tier 2 gear...!
....except it isn't that epic. In fact, regular Tier 2 gryphonskin gear is actually substantially worse than the level 60 AK gear that drops. You might wonder why that's a problem. Well, since you need to run that dungeon countless times for mythology and philosophy, you're going to be getting this gear more than likely anyway. Even if you are unfortunate, you're going to be able to buy Darklight Gear with your seals, which is actually a better investment of your time anyway in terms of cost-effectiveness and stat gains. Add to the fact that you'll need roughly 36 Animal fats, which is over 3600 seals, to make your items T2, and you'll see why this is stupid. You could run AK/CM 50 times and have enough seals to buy all the required ingredients to craft T2 gear... or you could have the entire darklight set, which is better, and doesn't require you to also have leveled a craft. You should be able to see why this is problematic.
4) The game is bleeding people already.
When I started the game, I formed up an FC and a linkshell really early on in the open beta phase. We recruited roughly 100 members for our linkshell, and 70 for our free company. Before the end of the free trial, the LS is down to roughly 28 members, and the FC is down to roughly 20. There's horrible retention by any standards, and we're talking about the first month! Whether it's latency issues on the HM Titan fight (drove away some folks), the feel that the game is similar to vanilla WoW (drove away some more folks), the monotony of fate grinding (drove away even more folks), or the braindead simplicity of low levels, the game isn't holding people's interests the way a new, fresh MMO usually does.
5) There's not enough content to justify waiting for more/subscribing.
While I realize that the Crystal Tower, Player Housing, and PvP are all on the horizon... realistically, we're at least a month away from that patch, if not longer. What reason is there to subscribe for another 1-2 months when there's essentially nothing to do? To gear up further? I could technically already be totally geared if it weren't for the mythology cap, as could many other players. I'm exhausted of running CM/AK, and I'm basically at the end of BC turn 4; so what else is there to do? I have my combat class leveled and geared, and 3 crafts maxed out and geared. I managed to essentially "complete" the game 4 times in a month.
For a game that has essentially released twice, I feel as though most people who are critical of the game have given it a fair chance. I can't expect 2.1 to be some miracle patch. It took nearly 3 years to fix FFXIV into a state of being a working product. It's had countless patches and adjustments and additions to it in that time. Now that it's been released, it's a playable, functional game. But it's really not that fun now, it's not that challenging, it's not that deep, and it's not that fresh. Maybe it'll become all of those things in time, but as a person who has been listening to fan-made excuses for nearly a year ("It's only in beta 1, it'll get better.", "It's only open beta, give it more time.", "It gets harder at higher level", "It gets harder at end-game", "It'll be better next patch.", "It'll be better after it's first expansion.") I just don't care to hear it anymore. There will be newer, fresher games coming out soon enough, and I can't justify sticking around on the hope that this game will become what I wanted it to be.
Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...
1) My blacklist is 3x the size of my friendslist (and growing) because there's no community.
In order to have any kind of meaningful interaction with people, you're going to have to constantly update your blacklist. The rampant, unchecked gold-seller spamming via the shout, yell, and say channels are intolerable. Even when you handle it that way, you're going to get /tells from them every single day. Blacklistling isn't even effective, because if you blacklist one, you can rest assured that a new one will take it's place to /tell you within 30 minutes. This has completely and utterly ruined interaction and the community of the game. It makes bolstering your FC's ranks even more intolerable, as there's no real way to advertise other than by running dungeons with people who are on your server.
2) The end-game is literally non-existent.
For a game that's released twice, there's simply no meat to it. The end-game consists of running Amdapor Keep and Castrum Meridanum dozens of times over for tomes. It's not only not challenging, it's not fun either. Bahamut's Coil is ok, but even then, it's not that long, and the timer on it insures that you can't run it as often as you'd like. Furthermore, when you hit end-game, you need Mythology tomes; however, the hard cap on them (300 seals a week) prevents you from being able to progress at your own pace for no reason. In a game that has no end-game, the notion that even further limitations on the already-absent end-game is simple lunacy. You have nothing to do except farm seals, and wait. Expecting people to want to level other classes and crafts = / = meaningful content.
3) End-game crafting is essentially worthless.
Congratulations; you got your craft to 50! Time to crank out that epic tier 2 gear...!
....except it isn't that epic. In fact, regular Tier 2 gryphonskin gear is actually substantially worse than the level 60 AK gear that drops. You might wonder why that's a problem. Well, since you need to run that dungeon countless times for mythology and philosophy, you're going to be getting this gear more than likely anyway. Even if you are unfortunate, you're going to be able to buy Darklight Gear with your seals, which is actually a better investment of your time anyway in terms of cost-effectiveness and stat gains. Add to the fact that you'll need roughly 36 Animal fats, which is over 3600 seals, to make your items T2, and you'll see why this is stupid. You could run AK/CM 50 times and have enough seals to buy all the required ingredients to craft T2 gear... or you could have the entire darklight set, which is better, and doesn't require you to also have leveled a craft. You should be able to see why this is problematic.
4) The game is bleeding people already.
When I started the game, I formed up an FC and a linkshell really early on in the open beta phase. We recruited roughly 100 members for our linkshell, and 70 for our free company. Before the end of the free trial, the LS is down to roughly 28 members, and the FC is down to roughly 20. There's horrible retention by any standards, and we're talking about the first month! Whether it's latency issues on the HM Titan fight (drove away some folks), the feel that the game is similar to vanilla WoW (drove away some more folks), the monotony of fate grinding (drove away even more folks), or the braindead simplicity of low levels, the game isn't holding people's interests the way a new, fresh MMO usually does.
5) There's not enough content to justify waiting for more/subscribing.
While I realize that the Crystal Tower, Player Housing, and PvP are all on the horizon... realistically, we're at least a month away from that patch, if not longer. What reason is there to subscribe for another 1-2 months when there's essentially nothing to do? To gear up further? I could technically already be totally geared if it weren't for the mythology cap, as could many other players. I'm exhausted of running CM/AK, and I'm basically at the end of BC turn 4; so what else is there to do? I have my combat class leveled and geared, and 3 crafts maxed out and geared. I managed to essentially "complete" the game 4 times in a month.
For a game that has essentially released twice, I feel as though most people who are critical of the game have given it a fair chance. I can't expect 2.1 to be some miracle patch. It took nearly 3 years to fix FFXIV into a state of being a working product. It's had countless patches and adjustments and additions to it in that time. Now that it's been released, it's a playable, functional game. But it's really not that fun now, it's not that challenging, it's not that deep, and it's not that fresh. Maybe it'll become all of those things in time, but as a person who has been listening to fan-made excuses for nearly a year ("It's only in beta 1, it'll get better.", "It's only open beta, give it more time.", "It gets harder at higher level", "It gets harder at end-game", "It'll be better next patch.", "It'll be better after it's first expansion.") I just don't care to hear it anymore. There will be newer, fresher games coming out soon enough, and I can't justify sticking around on the hope that this game will become what I wanted it to be.
1. If your community is bad, it's because you made it that way.
2. I'm certain you can find end game activities that need to be done. I just don't think you want to. It's one thing to say you don't like your options, it's another to ignore what's there and say it's non existent.
3. End game crafted items that are HQ'd and over-melded rival the best items in the game.
4. I still sat in queues twice this week. So it needs to bleed a few more people for me to be happy.
5. This is your 2nd point re-worded and the same answer applies.
It's fine if this isn't your type of game. But for the type of game it is, and for those like myself who like it, this game is great and it's a lot of fun. Certainly worth subscribing to from my PoV. It's not from yours. I could respect your opinion if you didn't make stuff up. Just because you didn't like the end game, doesn't mean others won't and therefore make the false claim that it's non existant. Or to pick Basic crafted items and say they don't compare to endgame items without taking into consideration that you can improve on that item and make it much better. It's fine that you don't like the game, but at least be more accurate in your criticism. To the uninitiated looking at your posts, they would not be making a decision based on inaccurate information.
Originally posted by Cymdai End-game crafting is essentially worthless.Congratulations; you got your craft to 50! Time to crank out that epic tier 2 gear...!....except it isn't that epic. In fact, regular Tier 2 gryphonskin gear is actually substantially worse than the level 60 AK gear that drops. You might wonder why that's a problem. Well, since you need to run that dungeon countless times for mythology and philosophy, you're going to be getting this gear more than likely anyway. Even if you are unfortunate, you're going to be able to buy Darklight Gear with your seals, which is actually a better investment of your time anyway in terms of cost-effectiveness and stat gains. Add to the fact that you'll need roughly 36 Animal fats, which is over 3600 seals, to make your items T2, and you'll see why this is stupid. You could run AK/CM 50 times and have enough seals to buy all the required ingredients to craft T2 gear... or you could have the entire darklight set, which is better, and doesn't require you to also have leveled a craft. You should be able to see why this is problematic.
Please stop misrepresenting the crafting community. Its ok you're not a crafter. Its fine you don't like it, its not for you. But those of us who are dedicated crafters in mmos know this is a gem. There is more than enough endgame for any serious crafter. Tired of people who claim to be a crafter whine about no best in slot at endgame. You missed the point, really.
There's my character; where is yours? If you're going to lecture me on how much crafting there is, how useful it is, etc, I better see you with more than 3 50+ crafts. If not, then kindly step off with talking about how much there is to do. I've done it; there's not that much to do.
And if you need proof that end-game doesn't exist, feel free to check basically any thread. There simply isn't. It's blatant lying to pretend that there's more to do for your main job/craft other than run AK/Cm, or gear for BC. That's it. That is 100% of the end-game. Anything else is blatant nonsense.
Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...
There's my character; where is yours? If you're going to lecture me on how much crafting there is, how useful it is, etc, I better see you with more than 3 50+ crafts. If not, then kindly step off with talking about how much there is to do. I've done it; there's not that much to do.
And if you need proof that end-game doesn't exist, feel free to check basically any thread. There simply isn't. It's blatant lying to pretend that there's more to do for your main job/craft other than run AK/Cm, or gear for BC. That's it. That is 100% of the end-game. Anything else is blatant nonsense.
Toxotes Tunic from AK: Dex-16, Vit-18, Crit-17, Acc-24
So, while that shows what the armor would look like, it doesn't disprove anything. In fact, it confirms exactly what I said: You could just run AK/CM and farm full darklight gear, and you'll be on par with someone who is wearing unfilled T2 gear.
In other words, the sole reason to level crafting for end-game is if you're a supremely obsessed min-maxer.
That, to me, doesn't justify the time spent, the lack of utility, or the resources required. Considering you can run BC with just Darklight gear, what that confirms is that T2 gear is simply inefficient. I don't see how you can dispute that. On a cost-effectiveness scale, DL gear is identical to T2 gear, costs SUBSTANTIALLY less to come by in terms of time and gil required, and the stat differences are up to the player (which, after the second materia, becomes even more of a gil/timesink)
Thanks for helping me prove my point.
Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...
So, while that shows what the armor would look like, it doesn't disprove anything. In fact, it confirms exactly what I said: You could just run AK/CM and farm full darklight gear, and you'll be on par with someone who is wearing unfilled T2 gear.
In other words, the sole reason to level crafting for end-game is if you're a supremely obsessed min-maxer.
That, to me, doesn't justify the time spent, the lack of utility, or the resources required. Considering you can run BC with just Darklight gear, what that confirms is that T2 gear is simply inefficient. I don't see how you can dispute that. On a cost-effectiveness scale, DL gear is identical to T2 gear, costs SUBSTANTIALLY less to come by in terms of time and gil required, and the stat differences are up to the player (which, after the second materia, becomes even more of a gil/timesink)
Thanks for helping me prove my point.
You have completely discounted the person who likes to craft because they like doing it.
It is infinitely more meaningful for me to wear an item I made then dungeon farmed. It adds meaning to the game.
Again, you come into this thread with your subjective opinions and present them as facts.
I can respect that this kind of game doesn't apeal to you. But that is YOU. Others have a different take.
To me, crafting IS part of endgame. A big part of endgame.
So, while that shows what the armor would look like, it doesn't disprove anything. In fact, it confirms exactly what I said: You could just run AK/CM and farm full darklight gear, and you'll be on par with someone who is wearing unfilled T2 gear.
In other words, the sole reason to level crafting for end-game is if you're a supremely obsessed min-maxer.
That, to me, doesn't justify the time spent, the lack of utility, or the resources required. Considering you can run BC with just Darklight gear, what that confirms is that T2 gear is simply inefficient. I don't see how you can dispute that. On a cost-effectiveness scale, DL gear is identical to T2 gear, costs SUBSTANTIALLY less to come by in terms of time and gil required, and the stat differences are up to the player (which, after the second materia, becomes even more of a gil/timesink)
Thanks for helping me prove my point.
You have completely discounted the person who likes to craft because they like doing it.
It is infinitely more meaningful for me to wear an item I made then dungeon farmed. It adds meaning to the game.
Again, you come into this tread with your subjective opinions and present them as facts.
To me, crafting IS part of endgame. A big part of endgame.
If we are going to take road of subjective opinions then crafting is party of every MMO because simply people enjoy doing that. But this isn't about your subjective feelings.
This is about role of crafting in end game and if it is viable in comparison to PVE end game gear..answer is obvious one. Nope. No amount of subjective opinions can change that.
Its another typical themepark MMO where crafting is nothing more than time / resource sink and a mini game to keep players distracted while PVE end game raiding gets all the focus.
Given that this thread is mine, and everything I'm stating is obviously my opinion, I don't see why you feel the need to remind me that it's my opinion. Was that not clear? Do I need a disclaimer to explain to people that posts consist of opinions? I honestly thought it such common sense that it didn't need to be clarified.
As you can see, I'm a pretty dedicated crafter myself. But I'm not going to tell people it's a good idea. If you really love crafting, and this is what you're about, than by all means, craft away. But a lot of folks aren't interested in farming dungeons for tomes which are used for mats which are used to produce segments of gear which are used to produce whole pieces of gear. If it was such a common place, everyone would be crafting their own gear. But most people don't like to; it's part of the reason there is an economy in the first place. "I don't feel like farming, I don't feel like crafting, I don't feel like gathering" is the driving attitude behind most sales on the market board.
If there more more attractive options for crafters, that would certainly make it more exciting and worthwhile. But to me, farming dungeons even more times than I already have to (is it around 52 times for full DL gear I believe) to get marginal/unnecessary gains.... I don't see the joy in that. God forbid you do both... you'll let be running the dungeons over 100 times!
Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...
So, while that shows what the armor would look like, it doesn't disprove anything. In fact, it confirms exactly what I said: You could just run AK/CM and farm full darklight gear, and you'll be on par with someone who is wearing unfilled T2 gear.
In other words, the sole reason to level crafting for end-game is if you're a supremely obsessed min-maxer.
That, to me, doesn't justify the time spent, the lack of utility, or the resources required. Considering you can run BC with just Darklight gear, what that confirms is that T2 gear is simply inefficient. I don't see how you can dispute that. On a cost-effectiveness scale, DL gear is identical to T2 gear, costs SUBSTANTIALLY less to come by in terms of time and gil required, and the stat differences are up to the player (which, after the second materia, becomes even more of a gil/timesink)
Thanks for helping me prove my point.
You have completely discounted the person who likes to craft because they like doing it.
It is infinitely more meaningful for me to wear an item I made then dungeon farmed. It adds meaning to the game.
Again, you come into this tread with your subjective opinions and present them as facts.
To me, crafting IS part of endgame. A big part of endgame.
If we are going to take road of subjective opinions than crafting is party of every MMO because simply people enjoy doing that. But this isn't about your subjective feelings.
This is about role of crafting in end game and if it is viable in comparison to PVE end game gear..answer is obvious one. Nope. No amount of subjective opinions can change that.
How is it non viable............exactly?
Show me the non subjective facts. You made a false claim, I showed the stat comparison of Dungeon gear vs Crafted gear. Looks viable to me.
While I don't think the game will fail, I do think it will eventually go F2P because the game brings nothing new to the table and from what I am hearing, people are dropping their subscriptions left and right. My GW2 guild has seen an influx of 3 new members who tried to get into FFXIV but quit after a few weeks after hitting level cap. Their reasoning was the game has no content and are more content to in GW2.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Given that this thread is mine, and everything I'm stating is obviously my opinion, I don't see why you feel the need to remind me that it's my opinion. Was that not clear? Do I need a disclaimer to explain to people that posts consist of opinions? I honestly thought it such common sense that it didn't need to be clarified.
As you can see, I'm a pretty dedicated crafter myself. But I'm not going to tell people it's a good idea. If you really love crafting, and this is what you're about, than by all means, craft away. But a lot of folks aren't interested in farming dungeons for tomes which are used for mats which are used to produce segments of gear which are used to produce whole pieces of gear. If it was such a common place, everyone would be crafting their own gear. But most people don't like to; it's part of the reason there is an economy in the first place. "I don't feel like farming, I don't feel like crafting, I don't feel like gathering" is the driving attitude behind most sales on the market board.
If there more more attractive options for crafters, that would certainly make it more exciting and worthwhile. But to me, farming dungeons even more times than I already have to (is it around 52 times for full DL gear I believe) to get marginal/unnecessary gains.... I don't see the joy in that. God forbid you do both... you'll let be running the dungeons over 100 times!
It's your opinion... Fair enough. But I disagree with it. And I have shown why.
To me, crafting is a worthy goal to strive for.
As for Bigdaddy, who has come in and clearly stated it's NOT an opinion, I believe I have proven him incorrect when he says crafting isn't viable.
So, while that shows what the armor would look like, it doesn't disprove anything. In fact, it confirms exactly what I said: You could just run AK/CM and farm full darklight gear, and you'll be on par with someone who is wearing unfilled T2 gear.
In other words, the sole reason to level crafting for end-game is if you're a supremely obsessed min-maxer.
That, to me, doesn't justify the time spent, the lack of utility, or the resources required. Considering you can run BC with just Darklight gear, what that confirms is that T2 gear is simply inefficient. I don't see how you can dispute that. On a cost-effectiveness scale, DL gear is identical to T2 gear, costs SUBSTANTIALLY less to come by in terms of time and gil required, and the stat differences are up to the player (which, after the second materia, becomes even more of a gil/timesink)
Thanks for helping me prove my point.
You have completely discounted the person who likes to craft because they like doing it.
It is infinitely more meaningful for me to wear an item I made then dungeon farmed. It adds meaning to the game.
Again, you come into this tread with your subjective opinions and present them as facts.
To me, crafting IS part of endgame. A big part of endgame.
If we are going to take road of subjective opinions than crafting is party of every MMO because simply people enjoy doing that. But this isn't about your subjective feelings.
This is about role of crafting in end game and if it is viable in comparison to PVE end game gear..answer is obvious one. Nope. No amount of subjective opinions can change that.
How is it non viable............exactly?
Show me the non subjective facts. You made a false claim, I showed the stat comparison of Dungeon gear vs Crafted gear. Looks viable to me.
Once you get your class specific set.... the next jump is to start collecting tomes for DL gear. Which is tailor made for dungeon grind and speed runs. There is not even a comparison with crafted gear. if it was viable everyone would just ditch dark light and other end game gear and buy crafted gear from market. There is not a single crafted weapon which is better or equal to the relic ones.
The difference between your chest piece (probably around...450,000-700,000 gilish? Maybe a bit more?) and the Darklight chest piece (free: 0 gil) is:
+13 Determination (largely useless stat)
+7 Crit rate
Based on a # of dungeon runs alone, it'd be roughly 10 runs vs 10-20 runs.
This is excluding the cost associated with leveling and gearing your crafting class from 1-50, accompanied with the purchase/creation of materia needed for your crafter gear as well (since you can't make Hard Hippo Leather and other pieces with less than 334/318, and with full HQ AF, you'll be at around 300/300) + the food costs.
...if you can't see how that's *NOT* viable, than I can't help you. But for the average player, that's an absurd amount of time, effort, and gil for the most miniscule gains.
Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...
The difference between your chest piece (probably around...450,000-700,000 gilish? Maybe a bit more?) and the Darklight chest piece (free: 0 gil) is:
+13 Determination (largely useless stat)
+7 Crit rate
Based on a # of dungeon runs alone, it'd be roughly 10 runs vs 10-20 runs.
This is excluding the cost associated with leveling and gearing your crafting class from 1-50, accompanied with the purchase/creation of materia needed for your crafter gear as well (since you can't make Hard Hippo Leather and other pieces with less than 334/318, and with full HQ AF, you'll be at around 300/300) + the food costs.
...if you can't see how that's *NOT* viable, than I can't help you. But for the average player, that's an absurd amount of time, effort, and gil for the most miniscule gains.
It's subjective. On this same page, you made a big deal about it being your opinion. Now you tell me how I can't see that it's not viable as if it's a fact. That's why you are getting challenged over why this is an opinion thread. You say it's your opinion, but you present it like a fact. I still disagree. It's viable. Not cost effective, but someone can wear it and do very well with it. It's viable. I still plan to make those pieces....and wear them. We are still going back to the preference between grinding mats or grinding dungeons.
On the day I show up for an instance, and If I am wearing HQ Gryphonskin melded armor and I am booted for being under geared, I'll come back and formally announce you were correct.
The difference between your chest piece (probably around...450,000-700,000 gilish? Maybe a bit more?) and the Darklight chest piece (free: 0 gil) is:
+13 Determination (largely useless stat)
+7 Crit rate
Based on a # of dungeon runs alone, it'd be roughly 10 runs vs 10-20 runs.
This is excluding the cost associated with leveling and gearing your crafting class from 1-50, accompanied with the purchase/creation of materia needed for your crafter gear as well (since you can't make Hard Hippo Leather and other pieces with less than 334/318, and with full HQ AF, you'll be at around 300/300) + the food costs.
...if you can't see how that's *NOT* viable, than I can't help you. But for the average player, that's an absurd amount of time, effort, and gil for the most miniscule gains.
It's subjective. On this same page, you made a big deal about it being your opinion. Now you tell me how I can't see that it's not viable as if it's a fact. That's why you are getting challenged over why this is an opinion thread. You say it's your opinion, but you present it like a fact. I still disagree. It's viable. Not cost effective, but someone can wear it and do very well with it. It's viable. I still plan to make those pieces....and wear them. We are still going back to the preference between grinding mats or grinding dungeons.
I don't think he knows what the word viable means.
It isn't economically viable. We can make a poll and see if it's generally agreed upon. There's a reason nearly everyone in end-game is rocking full DL gear, and not full GS gear. Economically not worth it (especially since BC gear will dwarf it anyway)
Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...
Originally posted by Cymdai It isn't economically viable. We can make a poll and see if it's generally agreed upon. There's a reason nearly everyone in end-game is rocking full DL gear, and not full GS gear. Economically not worth it (especially since BC gear will dwarf it anyway)
Subjective is subjective, you can make a poll all you want, doesnt matter if the majority feels it's not econimically viable but you can't deny it's economically viable to someone. Geezergamer already proved that to you.
Originally posted by Cymdai It isn't economically viable. We can make a poll and see if it's generally agreed upon. There's a reason nearly everyone in end-game is rocking full DL gear, and not full GS gear. Economically not worth it (especially since BC gear will dwarf it anyway)
Subjective is subjective, you can make a poll all you want, doesnt matter if the majority feels it's not econimically viable but you can't deny it's economically viable to someone. Geezergamer already proved that to you.
Nice shifting of goal posts there. When you can't prove otherwise lets hide behind 'all opinions are subjective'. Nice one.
I am still waiting for geeze to show me crafted end game weapon which is better than the relic.
Because that is what was the actual discussion. Crafted gear beingequal and better than raid gear. Until OP was off tracked by 'subjective herp derp'.
Originally posted by Bigdaddyx Originally posted by GeezerGamerOriginally posted by CymdaiSo, while that shows what the armor would look like, it doesn't disprove anything. In fact, it confirms exactly what I said: You could just run AK/CM and farm full darklight gear, and you'll be on par with someone who is wearing unfilled T2 gear.In other words, the sole reason to level crafting for end-game is if you're a supremely obsessed min-maxer. That, to me, doesn't justify the time spent, the lack of utility, or the resources required. Considering you can run BC with just Darklight gear, what that confirms is that T2 gear is simply inefficient. I don't see how you can dispute that. On a cost-effectiveness scale, DL gear is identical to T2 gear, costs SUBSTANTIALLY less to come by in terms of time and gil required, and the stat differences are up to the player (which, after the second materia, becomes even more of a gil/timesink)Thanks for helping me prove my point.
You have completely discounted the person who likes to craft because they like doing it.It is infinitely more meaningful for me to wear an item I made then dungeon farmed. It adds meaning to the game.Again, you come into this tread with your subjective opinions and present them as facts.To me, crafting IS part of endgame. A big part of endgame.If we are going to take road of subjective opinions then crafting is party of every MMO because simply people enjoy doing that. But this isn't about your subjective feelings.
This is about role of crafting in end game and if it is viable in comparison to PVE end game gear..answer is obvious one. Nope. No amount of subjective opinions can change that.
Its another typical themepark MMO where crafting is nothing more than time / resource sink and a mini game to keep players distracted while PVE end game raiding gets all the focus.
That's cool. I'll just keep having a blast crafting, trading, selling, adding to my friends list, making gil and having an overal enjoyable mmo experience.
Your endgame and my endgame are different. They are both valid. In the context of this game, yours doesn't work and mine does.
Originally posted by Bigdaddyx I am still waiting for geeze to show me crafted end game weapon which is better than the relic.
I'll wait for you to prove that 100% of the people who play are going to attain all relic weapons and armor for all their level 50 classes.
When you realize that obviously they all wont, you'll also realize that crafted gear is endgame viable.
The OP's main point was crafting gear being weak in comparison to the crafted gear. That has nothing to do with subjective opinion. Yes not everyone is into raiding but that still doesn't change the fact that best end game gear comes from raiding..which is a typical themepark formula where crafting is just a filler and nothing more.
End game raiding is where SE's main focus is and that is why crafted gear will never be better than end game dungeon gear because they want the carrot to make people sub.
Nice shifting of goal posts there. When you can't prove otherwise lets hide behind 'all opinions are subjective'. Nice one.
I am still waiting for geeze to show me crafted end game weapon which is better than the relic.
Because that is what was the actual discussion. Crafted gear beingequal and better than raid gear. Until OP was off tracked by 'subjective herp derp'.
OK, You have gotten me interested now. I have a new goal. Unfortunately, tt the present time, I am not in a position to do this, but I will be. When I am. this is what I will do (When I have all the gear) After I've collected and maxed out my crafted gear set and have the best I can craft on my Bard from LW and CRP and have gotten the best accessories from GSM. I also believe that by then I'll also have Relic+1 and full DL.
So I will run the parse logger app I downloaded. and hit the target dummies and run the exact same rotation.
1st I will wear the DL+Relic.
2nd I will wear all crafted gear.
When that happens, I will post the results.
P.S. If someone who can be objective enough and has both full sets of gear is in a position to run the test before I can, I'd be very curious to see the results between full PVE gear vs full Crafted gear.
Originally posted by Cymdai It isn't economically viable. We can make a poll and see if it's generally agreed upon. There's a reason nearly everyone in end-game is rocking full DL gear, and not full GS gear. Economically not worth it (especially since BC gear will dwarf it anyway)
Subjective is subjective, you can make a poll all you want, doesnt matter if the majority feels it's not econimically viable but you can't deny it's economically viable to someone. Geezergamer already proved that to you.
Nice shifting of goal posts there. When you can't prove otherwise lets hide behind 'all opinions are subjective'. Nice one.
I am still waiting for geeze to show me crafted end game weapon which is better than the relic.
Because that is what was the actual discussion. Crafted gear beingequal and better than raid gear. Until OP was off tracked by 'subjective herp derp'.
I responded to his comment, I couldn't care less about what your goal post is even less about proving to someone who obviously disregards any proof provided.
Comments
I did not say EVE was (or wasn't) more challenging than FF14. I said that EVE was not as big a game as people want to make it out to be. Since you said it was HUGE. It's not.
I am and I am not downplaying EVE's success at least not financially. 500K subs is no laughing matter. However, as a game, the active player base does not reflect this success. Its business model is far more successful that the game itself. But that's something else altogether.
Reasons I won't be subscribing after October:
1) My blacklist is 3x the size of my friendslist (and growing) because there's no community.
In order to have any kind of meaningful interaction with people, you're going to have to constantly update your blacklist. The rampant, unchecked gold-seller spamming via the shout, yell, and say channels are intolerable. Even when you handle it that way, you're going to get /tells from them every single day. Blacklistling isn't even effective, because if you blacklist one, you can rest assured that a new one will take it's place to /tell you within 30 minutes. This has completely and utterly ruined interaction and the community of the game. It makes bolstering your FC's ranks even more intolerable, as there's no real way to advertise other than by running dungeons with people who are on your server.
2) The end-game is literally non-existent.
For a game that's released twice, there's simply no meat to it. The end-game consists of running Amdapor Keep and Castrum Meridanum dozens of times over for tomes. It's not only not challenging, it's not fun either. Bahamut's Coil is ok, but even then, it's not that long, and the timer on it insures that you can't run it as often as you'd like. Furthermore, when you hit end-game, you need Mythology tomes; however, the hard cap on them (300 seals a week) prevents you from being able to progress at your own pace for no reason. In a game that has no end-game, the notion that even further limitations on the already-absent end-game is simple lunacy. You have nothing to do except farm seals, and wait. Expecting people to want to level other classes and crafts = / = meaningful content.
3) End-game crafting is essentially worthless.
Congratulations; you got your craft to 50! Time to crank out that epic tier 2 gear...!
....except it isn't that epic. In fact, regular Tier 2 gryphonskin gear is actually substantially worse than the level 60 AK gear that drops. You might wonder why that's a problem. Well, since you need to run that dungeon countless times for mythology and philosophy, you're going to be getting this gear more than likely anyway. Even if you are unfortunate, you're going to be able to buy Darklight Gear with your seals, which is actually a better investment of your time anyway in terms of cost-effectiveness and stat gains. Add to the fact that you'll need roughly 36 Animal fats, which is over 3600 seals, to make your items T2, and you'll see why this is stupid. You could run AK/CM 50 times and have enough seals to buy all the required ingredients to craft T2 gear... or you could have the entire darklight set, which is better, and doesn't require you to also have leveled a craft. You should be able to see why this is problematic.
4) The game is bleeding people already.
When I started the game, I formed up an FC and a linkshell really early on in the open beta phase. We recruited roughly 100 members for our linkshell, and 70 for our free company. Before the end of the free trial, the LS is down to roughly 28 members, and the FC is down to roughly 20. There's horrible retention by any standards, and we're talking about the first month! Whether it's latency issues on the HM Titan fight (drove away some folks), the feel that the game is similar to vanilla WoW (drove away some more folks), the monotony of fate grinding (drove away even more folks), or the braindead simplicity of low levels, the game isn't holding people's interests the way a new, fresh MMO usually does.
5) There's not enough content to justify waiting for more/subscribing.
While I realize that the Crystal Tower, Player Housing, and PvP are all on the horizon... realistically, we're at least a month away from that patch, if not longer. What reason is there to subscribe for another 1-2 months when there's essentially nothing to do? To gear up further? I could technically already be totally geared if it weren't for the mythology cap, as could many other players. I'm exhausted of running CM/AK, and I'm basically at the end of BC turn 4; so what else is there to do? I have my combat class leveled and geared, and 3 crafts maxed out and geared. I managed to essentially "complete" the game 4 times in a month.
For a game that has essentially released twice, I feel as though most people who are critical of the game have given it a fair chance. I can't expect 2.1 to be some miracle patch. It took nearly 3 years to fix FFXIV into a state of being a working product. It's had countless patches and adjustments and additions to it in that time. Now that it's been released, it's a playable, functional game. But it's really not that fun now, it's not that challenging, it's not that deep, and it's not that fresh. Maybe it'll become all of those things in time, but as a person who has been listening to fan-made excuses for nearly a year ("It's only in beta 1, it'll get better.", "It's only open beta, give it more time.", "It gets harder at higher level", "It gets harder at end-game", "It'll be better next patch.", "It'll be better after it's first expansion.") I just don't care to hear it anymore. There will be newer, fresher games coming out soon enough, and I can't justify sticking around on the hope that this game will become what I wanted it to be.
Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...
1. If your community is bad, it's because you made it that way.
2. I'm certain you can find end game activities that need to be done. I just don't think you want to. It's one thing to say you don't like your options, it's another to ignore what's there and say it's non existent.
3. End game crafted items that are HQ'd and over-melded rival the best items in the game.
4. I still sat in queues twice this week. So it needs to bleed a few more people for me to be happy.
5. This is your 2nd point re-worded and the same answer applies.
It's fine if this isn't your type of game. But for the type of game it is, and for those like myself who like it, this game is great and it's a lot of fun. Certainly worth subscribing to from my PoV. It's not from yours. I could respect your opinion if you didn't make stuff up. Just because you didn't like the end game, doesn't mean others won't and therefore make the false claim that it's non existant. Or to pick Basic crafted items and say they don't compare to endgame items without taking into consideration that you can improve on that item and make it much better. It's fine that you don't like the game, but at least be more accurate in your criticism. To the uninitiated looking at your posts, they would not be making a decision based on inaccurate information.
Please stop misrepresenting the crafting community. Its ok you're not a crafter. Its fine you don't like it, its not for you. But those of us who are dedicated crafters in mmos know this is a gem. There is more than enough endgame for any serious crafter. Tired of people who claim to be a crafter whine about no best in slot at endgame. You missed the point, really.
Geezer, if you wanna disagree, fine. But don't act like I'm making stuff up because you disagree with it.
http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodestone/character/2197514/
There's my character; where is yours? If you're going to lecture me on how much crafting there is, how useful it is, etc, I better see you with more than 3 50+ crafts. If not, then kindly step off with talking about how much there is to do. I've done it; there's not that much to do.
And if you need proof that end-game doesn't exist, feel free to check basically any thread. There simply isn't. It's blatant lying to pretend that there's more to do for your main job/craft other than run AK/Cm, or gear for BC. That's it. That is 100% of the end-game. Anything else is blatant nonsense.
Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...
Toxotes Tunic from AK: Dex-16, Vit-18, Crit-17, Acc-24
http://xivdb.com/?item/6300/Toxotes-Tunic
Darklight Corset: Dex-20, Vit-22, Acc-27, Crit-19
http://xivdb.com/?item/3253/Darklight-Corselet-of-Aiming
HQ Gryphonskin with Matreria (Not even Grade 5)
So, while that shows what the armor would look like, it doesn't disprove anything. In fact, it confirms exactly what I said: You could just run AK/CM and farm full darklight gear, and you'll be on par with someone who is wearing unfilled T2 gear.
In other words, the sole reason to level crafting for end-game is if you're a supremely obsessed min-maxer.
That, to me, doesn't justify the time spent, the lack of utility, or the resources required. Considering you can run BC with just Darklight gear, what that confirms is that T2 gear is simply inefficient. I don't see how you can dispute that. On a cost-effectiveness scale, DL gear is identical to T2 gear, costs SUBSTANTIALLY less to come by in terms of time and gil required, and the stat differences are up to the player (which, after the second materia, becomes even more of a gil/timesink)
Thanks for helping me prove my point.
Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...
You have completely discounted the person who likes to craft because they like doing it.
It is infinitely more meaningful for me to wear an item I made then dungeon farmed. It adds meaning to the game.
Again, you come into this thread with your subjective opinions and present them as facts.
I can respect that this kind of game doesn't apeal to you. But that is YOU. Others have a different take.
To me, crafting IS part of endgame. A big part of endgame.
If we are going to take road of subjective opinions then crafting is party of every MMO because simply people enjoy doing that. But this isn't about your subjective feelings.
This is about role of crafting in end game and if it is viable in comparison to PVE end game gear..answer is obvious one. Nope. No amount of subjective opinions can change that.
Its another typical themepark MMO where crafting is nothing more than time / resource sink and a mini game to keep players distracted while PVE end game raiding gets all the focus.
Given that this thread is mine, and everything I'm stating is obviously my opinion, I don't see why you feel the need to remind me that it's my opinion. Was that not clear? Do I need a disclaimer to explain to people that posts consist of opinions? I honestly thought it such common sense that it didn't need to be clarified.
As you can see, I'm a pretty dedicated crafter myself. But I'm not going to tell people it's a good idea. If you really love crafting, and this is what you're about, than by all means, craft away. But a lot of folks aren't interested in farming dungeons for tomes which are used for mats which are used to produce segments of gear which are used to produce whole pieces of gear. If it was such a common place, everyone would be crafting their own gear. But most people don't like to; it's part of the reason there is an economy in the first place. "I don't feel like farming, I don't feel like crafting, I don't feel like gathering" is the driving attitude behind most sales on the market board.
If there more more attractive options for crafters, that would certainly make it more exciting and worthwhile. But to me, farming dungeons even more times than I already have to (is it around 52 times for full DL gear I believe) to get marginal/unnecessary gains.... I don't see the joy in that. God forbid you do both... you'll let be running the dungeons over 100 times!
Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...
How is it non viable............exactly?
Show me the non subjective facts. You made a false claim, I showed the stat comparison of Dungeon gear vs Crafted gear. Looks viable to me.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
It's your opinion... Fair enough. But I disagree with it. And I have shown why.
To me, crafting is a worthy goal to strive for.
As for Bigdaddy, who has come in and clearly stated it's NOT an opinion, I believe I have proven him incorrect when he says crafting isn't viable.
Once you get your class specific set.... the next jump is to start collecting tomes for DL gear. Which is tailor made for dungeon grind and speed runs. There is not even a comparison with crafted gear. if it was viable everyone would just ditch dark light and other end game gear and buy crafted gear from market. There is not a single crafted weapon which is better or equal to the relic ones.
To explain how it's not viable.
The difference between your chest piece (probably around...450,000-700,000 gilish? Maybe a bit more?) and the Darklight chest piece (free: 0 gil) is:
+13 Determination (largely useless stat)
+7 Crit rate
Based on a # of dungeon runs alone, it'd be roughly 10 runs vs 10-20 runs.
This is excluding the cost associated with leveling and gearing your crafting class from 1-50, accompanied with the purchase/creation of materia needed for your crafter gear as well (since you can't make Hard Hippo Leather and other pieces with less than 334/318, and with full HQ AF, you'll be at around 300/300) + the food costs.
...if you can't see how that's *NOT* viable, than I can't help you. But for the average player, that's an absurd amount of time, effort, and gil for the most miniscule gains.
Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...
It's subjective. On this same page, you made a big deal about it being your opinion. Now you tell me how I can't see that it's not viable as if it's a fact. That's why you are getting challenged over why this is an opinion thread. You say it's your opinion, but you present it like a fact. I still disagree. It's viable. Not cost effective, but someone can wear it and do very well with it. It's viable. I still plan to make those pieces....and wear them. We are still going back to the preference between grinding mats or grinding dungeons.
On the day I show up for an instance, and If I am wearing HQ Gryphonskin melded armor and I am booted for being under geared, I'll come back and formally announce you were correct.
I don't think he knows what the word viable means.
Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...
Subjective is subjective, you can make a poll all you want, doesnt matter if the majority feels it's not econimically viable but you can't deny it's economically viable to someone. Geezergamer already proved that to you.
Nice shifting of goal posts there. When you can't prove otherwise lets hide behind 'all opinions are subjective'. Nice one.
I am still waiting for geeze to show me crafted end game weapon which is better than the relic.
Because that is what was the actual discussion. Crafted gear beingequal and better than raid gear. Until OP was off tracked by 'subjective herp derp'.
If we are going to take road of subjective opinions then crafting is party of every MMO because simply people enjoy doing that. But this isn't about your subjective feelings.
This is about role of crafting in end game and if it is viable in comparison to PVE end game gear..answer is obvious one. Nope. No amount of subjective opinions can change that.
Its another typical themepark MMO where crafting is nothing more than time / resource sink and a mini game to keep players distracted while PVE end game raiding gets all the focus.
That's cool. I'll just keep having a blast crafting, trading, selling, adding to my friends list, making gil and having an overal enjoyable mmo experience.
Your endgame and my endgame are different. They are both valid. In the context of this game, yours doesn't work and mine does.
I'll wait for you to prove that 100% of the people who play are going to attain all relic weapons and armor for all their level 50 classes.
When you realize that obviously they all wont, you'll also realize that crafted gear is endgame viable.
The OP's main point was crafting gear being weak in comparison to the crafted gear. That has nothing to do with subjective opinion. Yes not everyone is into raiding but that still doesn't change the fact that best end game gear comes from raiding..which is a typical themepark formula where crafting is just a filler and nothing more.
End game raiding is where SE's main focus is and that is why crafted gear will never be better than end game dungeon gear because they want the carrot to make people sub.
OK, You have gotten me interested now. I have a new goal. Unfortunately, tt the present time, I am not in a position to do this, but I will be. When I am. this is what I will do (When I have all the gear) After I've collected and maxed out my crafted gear set and have the best I can craft on my Bard from LW and CRP and have gotten the best accessories from GSM. I also believe that by then I'll also have Relic+1 and full DL.
So I will run the parse logger app I downloaded. and hit the target dummies and run the exact same rotation.
1st I will wear the DL+Relic.
2nd I will wear all crafted gear.
When that happens, I will post the results.
P.S. If someone who can be objective enough and has both full sets of gear is in a position to run the test before I can, I'd be very curious to see the results between full PVE gear vs full Crafted gear.
I responded to his comment, I couldn't care less about what your goal post is even less about proving to someone who obviously disregards any proof provided.