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How to get into the cartoon-style graphics

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  • MetrobiusMetrobius cherry valley, CAPosts: 95Member Common
    I am really hoping that they dont get lazy woth the customization options. SOE has tdaditionally given us a huge amount of space to customize our character's appearance and it would be a shame if they dumped that for some reason. I think that would be a much bigger danger to tue game than the cartoony look of the models we have seen so far. Overall, I like the current models for what they are though.
  • baphametbaphamet omaha, NEPosts: 2,838Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by nisrak
    Originally posted by Sengi   Seriously, you are not telling me to play ESO instead. With the same right I could tell you to go play Wildstar.
    The difference is that you are saying SOE should cater to you and completely change their art direction and character models and everyone who likes stylized graphics should play Wildstar.  We are saying if you don't like the art of EQN and want it to be more realistic, play ESO...

    SOE is telling their entire fanbase to go play ESO. ESO(zenimax) is at least catering to their fan base, they are actually smart. lol

    i have no clue who SOE is trying to cater to but it sure as hell isn't fans of everquest.

    that is a mistake IMO

    yeah, as an EQ fan, i am looking forward to ESO more now, which is a shame.

  • nisraknisrak Honolulu, HIPosts: 70Member
    Originally posted by baphamet

     


    Originally posted by nisrak

    Originally posted by Sengi   Seriously, you are not telling me to play ESO instead. With the same right I could tell you to go play Wildstar.
    The difference is that you are saying SOE should cater to you and completely change their art direction and character models and everyone who likes stylized graphics should play Wildstar.  We are saying if you don't like the art of EQN and want it to be more realistic, play ESO...

    SOE is telling their entire fanbase to go play ESO. ESO(zenimax) is at least catering to their fan base, they are actually smart. lol

    i have no clue who SOE is trying to cater to but it sure as hell isn't fans of everquest.

    that is a mistake IMO

    yeah, as an EQ fan, i am looking forward to ESO more now, which is a shame.

    I really don't think SOE's entire fanbase hates the art direction.  I'm an EQ fan, played it for years, and actually rather like most of what I've seen so far...

  • psychosiszzpsychosiszz londonPosts: 43Member

    I dislike the art style. Looks like you'll be playing in Ever Quest Disney World. Hell maybe they made a deal with the devil (Walt Disney) and characters like mickey mouse and the little mermaid will make cameo appearances.

    Then again if the game-play and content is good I can look past that.

  • NaralNaral Solway, MNPosts: 751Member Uncommon

    There really isn't much of a choice. Either you appreciate them or you don't. They are not going anywhere.

    The MMO will launch with these graphics (which I actually like, btw) but if they really bothered me that much, I would just take a pass.

    I am not sure why people are so hell bent in trying to make themselves like it if they don't. It is not even the only sandbox coming down the line (though surely the one with the biggest budget). I guess that must be the reason people won't just walk away, but hold their noses and plan on playing anyway.

    The parkour is what I think is a bit over the top. I hope we can run across country without doing goddamn flips all the time.

  • quseioquseio stevens, PAPosts: 222Member

    -i used to watch teen titans  alot when iw as younger, now they rebooted it and  changed it into super even more anime kiddi floof and i cant stand it . eqns art direction isnt quite that bad but a sore disapointment.

    this game is surely aimed at the "horde" the game jumpers, the wow crowd , people who havent played mmos yet perhaps if theres a big enough demand we can get a sort of reboot for eq   with  eqn tech and newer models

  • NadiaNadia Canonsburg, PAPosts: 11,866Member Common
    Originally posted by quseio

    -i used to watch teen titans  alot when iw as younger, now they rebooted it and  changed it into super even more anime kiddi floof and i cant stand it . eqns art direction isnt quite that bad but a sore disapointment.

    offtopic

    you mean Young Justice?  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young_Justice_%28TV_series%29

    because i thought that show rivaled Justice League Unlimited which i loved

     

    edit:  nevermind,  you probably mean Teen Titans GO

  • PhryPhry HampshirePosts: 6,295Member Uncommon
    Whether like those kinds of graphics or not is a bit of a 'marmite' thing, you either like it, or you hate it, and if you hate it, you'll probably always hate it. Much as i like marmite though, i just don't like EQN's graphic direction, it doesnt really matter what features are in the game, or even if its innovative. I hope the game does well, but the art style means i will never even try it. Fortunately there are many games out there that don't suffer from overly cartoony art styles image
  • SuperPanekiSuperPaneki New York, NYPosts: 62Member
    Come on, guys. You don't have another option. It's it or WoW. There's no other real option.
  • evilastroevilastro EdinburghPosts: 4,270Member
    Originally posted by Sengi
    Originally posted by evilastro
    Originally posted by nisrak
    Originally posted by Sengi

    For its time Everquest didn't look cartoony at all. Gamespot wrote on April 2, 1999:

    I guess it depends on what you mean by "Cartoony"....

     

    Yep and Rosie, the art director for both EQ1 and EQN has already stated many times that EQ1 was stylised and the decision was not based on graphical limitations at the time. The only difference between EQ1 and EQN is the accentuated limbs (designed to show off detail in armour) and eyes (designed to show off emotion with SoEmote).

    If people hate it, thats fine, but EQ1 was not realistic in any way shape or form. EQN artistic design seems to follow on from EQ1 rather than EQ2 (which had strange play-doh faces until they introduced SOGA models, which are cartoony).

    Ok, I take it back. I’m not here to defend EQs graphics. Some parts where meant to look funny but non all. You have to consider that here someone purposefully selected the two most goofy faces for the ogre. There also where different ones.

    You also ripped the sentence out of context. You should have quoted the whole paragraph. My point was, that in 1999 there was no such thing as realistic or stylizes graphics from a today’s standpoint. Everything was just this angular pile of polygons. If you want to see what realistic and gritty graphics looked back then just look at the ogre from Quake. It looks quite a bit like the ogre from Everquest. This was so scary back then that the german authorities felt compelled to ban it.

    I don’t really believe Rosie Rappaport when she says she didn’t felt limited by the fact that she hat to use 300 polygons for the character models and it didn’t impact her artistic decisions at all. But maybe this is true. The models from EQN don’t look any better although the have 30.000 polys. :D

     

    Its not just ogres. Pretty much all the character models and most of the NPCs in Everquest looked very cartoony. Anyone who says otherwise either has a vision impairment or hasn't played the game. If you haven't played EQ1, then go google some images, you would be lucky to find 1 in 100 NPCs that could possibly pass at an attempt of being realistic, even by 1999 standards.

     

    You said you are only here because its a sandbox, well good news, there are plenty of sandboxes coming out with graphics aiming towards realism. In fact, EQN is pretty much the only sandbox on the horizon with stylised graphics. 

     

    Maybe we should go troll the Repopulation, Archeage, Black Desert and Bless and demand that they change their graphics to be more stylised?  Oh wait, that would be stupid since they are already well into production and its not going to change.  

  • CasualMakerCasualMaker Somerset, NJPosts: 870Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by evilastro 

    Yep and Rosie, the art director for both EQ1 and EQN has already stated many times that EQ1 was stylised and the decision was not based on graphical limitations at the time. The only difference between EQ1 and EQN is the accentuated limbs (designed to show off detail in armour) and eyes (designed to show off emotion with SoEmote).

    Hope the SoEmote works out better for EQN than EQ2. I don't usually use SOGA models so I don't know how it looks on them, but it pretty much sucks on the original EQ2 models. Even making exaggerated expressions for the webcam, I can hardly see any facial changes on the characters.

  • Ender4Ender4 milwaukee, WIPosts: 2,253Member

    I stop noticing the graphics in a game within 20 hours of playing it, dunno why it is a big deal to anyone.

  • SengiSengi HamburgPosts: 350Member
    Originally posted by nisrak

    I'm not sure why Disney evokes the "worst kinds of associations" for you, but I assume that most people don't feel the same.  Sure some Disney and Pixar movies are childish and have some slapstick elements, but for me they evoke light-hearted and fun (though maybe sometimes stupid) associations.  Maybe we should look further into why you have such horrific associations with Disney?

     

    Well, light-hearted and fun (though maybe sometimes stupid), this are basically the same associations I have too. The problem is that there is a fine line between "light-hearted and fun" and "schmaltzy and shallow". Most Disney movies like to move back and forth across this line all the time. I don't think it is a good idea to make EQN walk around on this line too, especially if it is without any reason. SOE could easily have chosen an art style that was stylised but also safely outside the Disney-territory.

    The art style is probably the most important thing to set the mood of the game. Unlike other things the look of the characters can't be changes to set a different mood during the game. I really don't want EQN to have a light-hearted and fun undertone all the time.

     

    Yes, I definitely agree that EQN is going to have very detailed customization with wide ranges of parameters to get your character to look how you want.  It just wouldn't make sense for them to make a sandbox game where the whole idea is "play your way" and then half-ass the character customization system.  I'd wager that in the final system you can make your character as Disney or non-Disney as you want.

     

    The fact that the art style hast to stay consistent though the whole game also means that you can't make any character that deviates from that style. So the customisation would allow you to make a Disney-hero or a Disney-villain but no a non-Disney character. Maybe this could help a little, but it won't solve the whole problem because the game will still look the same.

    I still hope at least the ogres will look kind of acceptable. But the way they messed up the Kerra makes me think. They are basically werelions (that's like a werewolf on steroids). I would have never guessed that this could look not menacing, but SOE has shown that it can. 

  • nisraknisrak Honolulu, HIPosts: 70Member
    Originally posted by Sengi

    Well, light-hearted and fun (though maybe sometimes stupid), this are basically the same associations I have too. The problem is that there is a fine line between "light-hearted and fun" and "schmaltzy and shallow". Most Disney movies like to move back and forth across this line all the time. I don't think it is a good idea to make EQN walk around on this line too, especially if it is without any reason. SOE could easily have chosen an art style that was stylised but also safely outside the Disney-territory.

    The art style is probably the most important thing to set the mood of the game. Unlike other things the look of the characters can't be changes to set a different mood during the game. I really don't want EQN to have a light-hearted and fun undertone all the time.

    So "light-hearted and fun" are the "worst kind" of associations?

    Why shouldn't EQN be fun?  They have stated many times that a major goal is to make the game fun.  I think the misconception is that a fun game cant have deep and challenging gameplay.  Early WoW was pretty fun (and had super "shmaltzy" art) but had some pretty deep gameplay.

     

    The fact that the art style hast to stay consistent though the whole game also means that you can't make any character that deviates from that style. So the customisation would allow you to make a Disney-hero or a Disney-villain but no a non-Disney character. Maybe this could help a little, but it won't solve the whole problem because the game will still look the same.

    I still hope at least the ogres will look kind of acceptable. But the way they messed up the Kerra makes me think. They are basically werelions (that's like a werewolf on steroids). I would have never guessed that this could look not menacing, but SOE has shown that it can. 

    While it's true that the art style will have to remain consistent, that doesn't mean it won't be highly customizable.  For example, they have stated that all Kerra are not going to be Lions or look like "Keeshar"... I can think of a panther-style Kerra with much more slender and subtle features.

    Have you seen the Ogre concept art?  I think it's pretty serious looking and "militaristic" but still fits with the art style.  Would you prefer the EQ1 obese ogres that constantly scratch their butts?

     

  • Temijin1Temijin1 Bothell, WAPosts: 12Member

    Interesting discussion. I am very excited about the features of the game but do fall into the camp of not likening the character graphics. They are just too "cute". When I saw the lion character in the opening presentation I'm sure I wasn't the only EQ  fan that gasped in dismay. Even the WOW characters were not this cute looking. I sure hope they hadn't subbed out this part of the game to an Asian shop to cut costs. These characters smack of Asian character design cuteness.

     

    i hope they give us the option un-cute the facial features during character creation. For immersion, I sure hope I don't have to have a character that looks like a Saturday morning cartoon for six year olds.

  • evilastroevilastro EdinburghPosts: 4,270Member
    Originally posted by CasualMaker
    Originally posted by evilastro 

    Yep and Rosie, the art director for both EQ1 and EQN has already stated many times that EQ1 was stylised and the decision was not based on graphical limitations at the time. The only difference between EQ1 and EQN is the accentuated limbs (designed to show off detail in armour) and eyes (designed to show off emotion with SoEmote).

    Hope the SoEmote works out better for EQN than EQ2. I don't usually use SOGA models so I don't know how it looks on them, but it pretty much sucks on the original EQ2 models. Even making exaggerated expressions for the webcam, I can hardly see any facial changes on the characters.

     

    I think that was the point of the larger eyes and mouths.  Currently SoEmote works great on non-humanoids with large eyes and mouths (Frogloks and Ratonga) but the movement is just too subtle on humanoid models.  To even make it noticable you need to have those big faces taking up the group window.

    I think the new artistic design will make this work much much better. Hopefully they offer better voice modification too. Needs more sliders.

  • jesadjesad Posts: 753Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Sengi
    Originally posted by dwarfkinglords

    i love it.. whats your problem? i love dreamworks and pixar movies too, 

    go look at realistic mmos and see how ugly and unapealing they are.. eso and eq1 or 2? 

    how the hell do you see this as a down side... dont play it then, move the hell on

    League of legends has a very cartoony stylized graphics and its the biggest game in the world, so is blizzards style which iis very popular..

     

    Yes everyone loves Pixars art style - in Pixar movies. But different things demand for differed art styles. I like Quentin Tarantino and I like the Muppets but I still don't think "Pulp Fiction the Muppet movie" would be a successful project.

    Sorry, I couldn't resist.

    Pulp Muppets

    image
  • LidaneLidane Austin, TXPosts: 2,300Member
    Originally posted by strangepowers

     


    Originally posted by Artean

    Originally posted by dwarfkinglords i love it.. whats your problem? i love dreamworks and pixar movies too,    go look at realistic mmos and see how ugly and unapealing they are.. eso and eq1 or 2?    how the hell do you see this as a down side... dont play it then, move the hell on   League of legends has a very cartoony stylized graphics and its the biggest game in the world, so is blizzards style which iis very popular..    
    Great. But wait until you get into your twenties and you might feel differently.

     

    Just wait till you get into your thirties and you realize what a dumb-ass you were in your 20's...

    Seriously this pretense of "maturity" is hilarious. I suppose you know that the folks who create this media are... you got it, adults! You think they don't like it, they just do it for a paycheck?

    I agree with a prior poster about you just turning 20 recently yourself and have this insecure need to separate yourself form your child peers...ooh so grown, your a big boy now!

    And as soon as you hit 40, you realize that all the stuff you took SO seriously in your teens and 20's is pretty much meaningless . You really DO realize what an idiot you used to be back then, and how immature and insecure you used to be. 

    EQN's art style is pretty much a non-issue for me.  What I care about is will the game be fun? Does the environment draw me in, and does it feel like an actual world rather than a series of set pieces? Is this a game I can see myself spending a lot of time playing?  Am I enjoying the player experience, or am I bored off my ass? Is it worth my time and money or not?

    I won't know the answers to any of those things until I actually play the game. Hopefully I'll get into a beta phase and find out.

  • GrahorGrahor aaaPosts: 828Member
    Nobody who is wasting his time playing games is mature. That includes me. End of story.
  • TeiraaTeiraa Tempe, AZPosts: 447Member Common
    Originally posted by evilastro
    Originally posted by Sengi

    Its not just ogres. Pretty much all the character models and most of the NPCs in Everquest looked very cartoony. Anyone who says otherwise either has a vision impairment or hasn't played the game. If you haven't played EQ1, then go google some images, you would be lucky to find 1 in 100 NPCs that could possibly pass at an attempt of being realistic, even by 1999 standards.

    Let me tell you about 1999 standards then!

    The original EQ graphics seem "cartoony" from today's point of you, but that was as realistic as you could get back in 1999.

    Here a quote for you, from a 2000 review of Kunark (EQ's first expansion):

    One of the biggest changes in Kunark is the improved graphics, and zone design. Where the original EverQuest had some rather large zones, they were still quite blocky and didn't look very realistic. In Kunark, each zone looks a lot more natural. The terrain is smoother, texture detail is greater, and the areas are much more complex.

    Still another customer review back from 2000:

    The graphics are almost phenominal. The 3D based characters and enviroments are both vivid and realistic.

    And one more:

    The graphics in Everquest are the best around. This game is so realistic that it is like you are in a new world.

    To build world looking as realistic as possible, that was the goal of the original EQ, even before the Luclin update.

    That is the reason behind the "realistic" graphics revamp with Luclin (already in 2001), when they made ogres look like this (click to enlarge):

    In my opinion, the reason for SOE to go for "cartoony" is to imitate the success of WOW, the same way SWTOR did. Hence not just "cartoony" faces, but also huge shoulderpads and these exaggerated elven ears.

  • JebbJebb LeedsPosts: 19Member
    I have no idea how anybody cares enough to kick up this much of a stink about it.

    "Jesus promised to rid the world of all wicked people. Odin promised to rid the world of all ice giants. I don't see many ice giants."

  • SengiSengi HamburgPosts: 350Member
    Originally posted by nisrak
    ...

    Why shouldn't EQN be fun?  They have stated many times that a major goal is to make the game fun.  I think the misconception is that a fun game cant have deep and challenging gameplay.  Early WoW was pretty fun (and had super "shmaltzy" art) but had some pretty deep gameplay.

    You are right, this discussion is not about fun gameplay but about a fun art style and a fun story and setting.

    Dictonary.com defines "fun" as "something that provides mirth or amusement" and "enjoyment or playfulness". "Fun" is neither the same as "excitement" nor the same as "pleasure", it is only a quite narrow part of it. "Fun" is strictly about positive feelings, and this excludes whole genres of fiction like tragedy and horror and even the realistic depiction of violence. So while fun is very important, a persistent fun undertone is very limiting for a game.

    "Fun" is also a type pleasure that comes without much involvement or afford. This is not the most important thing for a MMOs. It is more important in games that offer a more cinematic experience. MMOs are more about accomplishment that comes from archiving something and in the case of EQN also from creating something.

  • VandragoVandrago Parkersburg, WVPosts: 231Member
    Originally posted by Geeky
    I've written this game off due to the graphic art style.  And I was a huge fan of EQ and an even bigger one of EQ2.

    Same

    image

  • LokeroLokero Posts: 375Member Uncommon

    I don't have a major problem with the overall graphics themselves.  I really like the environmental/landscape graphics and stuff.

     

    But, there are a few specific things I would really like to see changed with character models.

    #1 (and a huge one at that):  Change Dark Elves so they don't look like girly anime rejects from the Avatar film.  In particular,  there's something a little too "cat-like" about the faces of the Dark Elves I've seen presented.  The feline features really      bother me.

    #2:  The Kerra lion-man did not impress me very much, I'll admit.  I like stylized graphics fine, but less cutesy and cuddly,    please.  That said, the Kerra is not a big concern to me.

    #3:  I haven't seen the Trolls and Ogres much yet, but these are pretty important and I'm hoping they come out looking like big,  physically imposing monsters.  These need to not look all cutesy like the rest of the races I've seen.

     

    My other major concern is the ridiculousness of the movement animations.  I'm okay with a little of the parkour stuff, but the videos they've shown to demonstrate it are way too overblown and just stupid looking.  I hope these were just to demo the movements and they are going to tone them down.

    I'm glad they can do all the cool animations, but just because you can doesn't always mean that you should.  It looks straight-up ridiculous leaping and rolling and gliding around everywhere.  I can just imagine how quickly that will get old when you see 30 people around you all doing it.

    Honestly, just a few minor touch-ups to the models and I think alot more people would be content.  Mainly everything just feels too cute and sweet with the models.  People, now, seem to equate "stylized" with "cartoony and cutesy", but you really can have stylish graphics and models without them looking like they were designed to attract children.  And, right now, a few of the character models are just too childish.

    Other than those few gripes, I don't have much trouble getting into the graphics style.  I think the most irritating thing to me so far is the parkour stuff.  I rather enjoyed the hand-made feel of WoW's graphics, although, I hated their armor styles with a passion... and unfortunately the EQNext armor is apparently going to be a copycat version with giant, oversized pieces.

    TL:DR I'm about 85% content with the graphics, and there's nothing I can do to make myself like them more.  They honestly just need to take a step back and stop trying to go overboard with everything.

  • SengiSengi HamburgPosts: 350Member
    Lokero

    You pretty much nailed it. I would only add that the Kerra probably needs more then some minor touch-ups. :D

     

    Yes of course. The whole issue is only about the characters. Wherever someone complains about the art style you can assume that he or she is talking about the style of the characters. I actually never read someone having any real complaints about the environment graphics. They look great. If there is one thing I would change its the cell-shading effect, it is kind of unnecessary.

     

    There is this strange mismatch between the characters and the environment. It almost looks like they where done by two completely different teams. While the people working on the environment did great work mastering a complicated new technology and making it look just as good as any traditional state of the art 3D graphics, the other team just made some 3D models that where thrown together without any vision, and only rip of someone else's imagination. And they didn't even borrow from the right place, instead the made the really absurd decision to copy from Disney Animation Studios. If you ask me it is a disgrace for highly paid professionals to hand in something like that.

    They took some concept you learn in freshmen year in any game design college like "Stylized graphics age better" and "Avoid the uncanny valley" and treated them as if they where the definitive answer to all art design. And then they made this astonishing leap in logic that lead them to believe that the only possible solution for this is Disney.

     

    It seems that many decisions where really rushed and not thought trough to the end. They wanted emotes that where visible from afar. But they didn't realize that you also often look at the character up close, and then it looks like a lunatic making crazy faces. It seems they don't even realized the problem later on, otherwise they wouldn't have shown us "Joleena" grimacing straight into the camera as one of the fist shots of the game.

     

    It is actually similar with the idea that the player shouldn't make any decision that he could regret afterwards. This means that every decision about the character including the choice of the class must be easily reversible. They went on with is regardless of the fact that it makes the character a blank slate that isn't really defined be anything anymore at least not its class or race.

     

    I don't see the parkour movement as part of the art style. It rather fits into a series of unfortunate decision SOE made lately, like the class system and the purely cosmetic races.

    I think all these things work against the concept of a sandbox. In my book a sandbox is at the bottom some kind of simulation. Of course a fantasy world needs a lot of suspension of disbelief, but the world in itself should make sense. A movement system, that throws all laws of physics out of window, including things like double-jumping, doesn't really help it.

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