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Most Stupid/Best PvP System in a Game?

sagilsagil StockholmPosts: 291Member

World of Warcraft. Gear wins in PvP. First you need to farm in battlegrounds and die to several higher geared players a dozen times. Who wants to farm in battlegrounds?

Best PvP so far is GW2, no better gear required, just different looks.

People are hypnotized by WoW since '04-'13. When will they realize that it's not a good game? I agree that it's hard to move over to another game, but really, you don't need it to babysit you anymore. It's an ancient game, with ancient logic.

Really, players PvPing in WoW does not impress me like PvPers in other games. They just have the FOTM setup and gear (and macros they copied from websites). 

Make PvP better and do NOT imitate WoW's PvP all developers out there. PvP shouldn't be gear grinding, macro typing/copying and having class imbalance because of PvE interference.

I'm that type of guy that wants an open world pve with pvp ranked arenas. But jeez, as I said a hundred times before, PvP is not about gear, it's about skills. WoW is a retarded game, hope people grow out of it. There are by many other means you can enjoy a game instead of gear stats grinding, like gear looks grinding. It's very similiar, but much more fair.

Can anyone out there tell me why WoW is STILL successful and why it has PvP players? Clueless about other games or what?

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Comments

  • drtack1drtack1 jacksonville, FLPosts: 253Member

    uhhhh as a mesmer in wvw in GW2 I have to argue that gear makes a big difference.

    Condi mesmer is all dependent on gear as alot of other builds are.

     Or are you talking about spvp? Dont really play the other pvp stuff, so not sure if gear matter there.

  • TheocritusTheocritus Gary, INPosts: 3,750Member Uncommon
    By having the gear treadmill, WoW has kept millions subbed for years.....If it was just skill based PVP only there isn't much of a carrot to keep going.
  • bcbullybcbully Westland, MIPosts: 8,277Member Uncommon

    If you are rating them on gear the two games you mention are on opposite end of extremes. WoW pvp gear is stupid on many levels.  GW2's gear doesn't matter is stupid on many levels. Equally stupid, but opposite imo. 

     

     

  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 19,998Member Uncommon

    MMORPG combat has never traditionally been about being fair and balanced, in fact quite the opposite, it usually has some means for a player to get a leg up on the competition via level disparities, improved gear, more skills/abilities or even better tactics or taking advantage of game deficiencies such as lag, overpowered class etc.

    In fact, it's a bit of a core feature really, the ability to improve your kill rate by utilizing things other than your natural /practiced ability to manipulate a keyboard. 

    Face it, only a handful of people can win if we base it purely on skill, but toss in the improvements players can get by being willing to grind through PVE and other activities flips the balance, suddenly you can be a pretty average player but bury people based on other factors, and  at the end of the day, it's all about who wins, not how they do it. (within the confines of the rules of the game of course)

    So if your looking for combat that is more team sport like, MOBA's and FPS shooter have been more balanced and relying on player "skill", though GW2 probably does one of the better jobs providing a level playing field, which is why many people actually don't care for the PVP in that case.

    But MMO's, especially in open world combat have traditionally been about exploiting your advantages, including bringing a zerg to crush your opposition, and toss in something like full loot and then the stakes get really high, and it isn't about the fight anymore, and all about winning, period.

    So WOW delivers the type of combat the player base wants, nothing wrong with it, but it will frustrate you if you want a more fair playing field.

     

     

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  • sagilsagil StockholmPosts: 291Member
    Originally posted by Kyleran

    MMORPG combat has never traditionally been about being fair and balanced, in fact quite the opposite, it usually has some means for a player to get a leg up on the competition via level disparities, improved gear, more skills/abilities or even better tactics or taking advantage of game deficiencies such as lag, overpowered class etc.

    In fact, it's a bit of a core feature really, the ability to improve your kill rate by utilizing things other than your natural /practiced ability to manipulate a keyboard. 

    Face it, only a handful of people can win if we base it purely on skill, but toss in the improvements players can get by being willing to grind through PVE and other activities flips the balance, suddenly you can be a pretty average player but bury people based on other factors, and  at the end of the day, it's all about who wins, not how they do it. (within the confines of the rules of the game of course)

    So if your looking for combat that is more team sport like, MOBA's and FPS shooter have been more balanced and relying on player "skill", though GW2 probably does one of the better jobs providing a level playing field, which is why many people actually don't care for the PVP in that case.

    But MMO's, especially in open world combat have traditionally been about exploiting your advantages, including bringing a zerg to crush your opposition, and toss in something like full loot and then the stakes get really high, and it isn't about the fight anymore, and all about winning, period.

    So WOW delivers the type of combat the player base wants, nothing wrong with it, but it will frustrate you if you want a more fair playing field.

     

     

    So P2W is perfectly fine too then, because it is exploiting your advantages? I think there are many like me that like open world with lore and everything, instead of an avatar with a wall of text, and then you just go from lobby to lobby with different avatars. No, we want a realistic world with pvp arenas you can jump into immediately, playing ranked when you desire or feel like you are good enough, and until then playing structured practice arenas without feeling like a loser because some "exploited" the PvP challanges through other achievements in the game that had nothing to do with pvp skills. Just time, and time should be only for luxury items that look cool. Like f.ex. wings, horns, mounts, shades, masks, etc..

    Btw, MOBA are for MOBA players.

  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Talahasee, FLPosts: 2,556Member
    Originally posted by Theocritus
    By having the gear treadmill, WoW has kept millions subbed for years.....If it was just skill based PVP only there isn't much of a carrot to keep going.

    Less than you'd think. WoW has one of the worst player rentention rates of any MMO in history. They released the numbers. The difference is they have the brand name and marketing budget to keep replacing those people they lose.

     

    SO, worst, WoW, easily.

     

    Best? Dark Age of Camelot or Eve.

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common

    Best? -Guild Wars 1.

    To my understanding, WoW had a special server for competitive PvP which they used for their e-sport PvP and as far as I know, it was pretty good. I haven't tried it myself tho.

    Worst? -Any sandbox that doesn't even try to make PvP (or combat) good, but somehow still allows it.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • shantidevashantideva bongholmPosts: 186Member

    "Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day!"

  • quseioquseio stevens, PAPosts: 222Member
    id nominate nwn online for both best and worst its good fun pvp but theres only 3 maps 2 regular pvp maps so it gets extremely stale gear matters  but its easy to get arena gear and purpole gear is easy to once u joina  guild theyuseually give it away but nwn is p2w so it fails ,  u need keys  for boxes for mounts which is  a good bit  p2w  in pvp and need keys for higher lvl runes  also important
  • TheSlitherTheSlither BernPosts: 59Member
    Originally posted by sagil

    World of Warcraft. Gear wins in PvP. First you need to farm in battlegrounds and die to several higher geared players a dozen times. Who wants to farm in battlegrounds?

    Best PvP so far is GW2, no better gear required, just different looks.

    People are hypnotized by WoW since '04-'13. When will they realize that it's not a good game? I agree that it's hard to move over to another game, but really, you don't need it to babysit you anymore. It's an ancient game, with ancient logic.

    Really, players PvPing in WoW does not impress me like PvPers in other games. They just have the FOTM setup and gear (and macros they copied from websites). 

    Make PvP better and do NOT imitate WoW's PvP all developers out there. PvP shouldn't be gear grinding, macro typing/copying and having class imbalance because of PvE interference.

    I'm that type of guy that wants an open world pve with pvp ranked arenas. But jeez, as I said a hundred times before, PvP is not about gear, it's about skills. WoW is a retarded game, hope people grow out of it. There are by many other means you can enjoy a game instead of gear stats grinding, like gear looks grinding. It's very similiar, but much more fair.

    Can anyone out there tell me why WoW is STILL successful and why it has PvP players? Clueless about other games or what?

    Not only about gear. You can play SMITE against me if you think that you have skill but no gear. And you will loose also.

  • rodingorodingo Posts: 2,346Member Uncommon
    Unfortunately most games with pvp revolve around gear.  The only games that I have played this year that don't is GW2 and Planetside 2.  All the other games that I played that had pvp this year such as Rift, Swtor, AoW, all base a big chunk off of gear.  In other words gear trumps skill in those games.  Some people like that, however I don't and I know I'm not the only one. 

    "If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by rodingo
    Unfortunately most games with pvp revolve around gear.  The only games that I have played this year that don't is GW2 and Planetside 2.  All the other games that I played that had pvp this year such as Rift, Swtor, AoW, all base a big chunk off of gear.  In other words gear trumps skill in those games.  Some people like that, however I don't and I know I'm not the only one. 

    If you want pure pvp, play LoL, star conflict, or WoT, and forget about MMORPGs.

     

  • SnarlingWolfSnarlingWolf Thereiam, ARPosts: 2,697Member

    Dumbest PvP system in any game - any attempt at open world PvP

     

    Best Idea - the FPS genre because it is true skill based solid PvP

     

     

    Battlegrounds are decent (in most games, the WvWvW of GW2 is utterly pointless) because they offer a win condition which is really what most PvPers want, to win against a human opponent.

  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 19,998Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by sagil
    Originally posted by Kyleran

    So if your looking for combat that is more team sport like, MOBA's and FPS shooter have been more balanced and relying on player "skill", though GW2 probably does one of the better jobs providing a level playing field, which is why many people actually don't care for the PVP in that case.

    So P2W is perfectly fine too then, because it is exploiting your advantages? I think there are many like me that like open world with lore and everything, instead of an avatar with a wall of text, and then you just go from lobby to lobby with different avatars. No, we want a realistic world with pvp arenas you can jump into immediately, playing ranked when you desire or feel like you are good enough, and until then playing structured practice arenas without feeling like a loser because some "exploited" the PvP challanges through other achievements in the game that had nothing to do with pvp skills. Just time, and time should be only for luxury items that look cool. Like f.ex. wings, horns, mounts, shades, masks, etc..

    Btw, MOBA are for MOBA players.

    Well yes, it's an extreme example, but P2W cash shops are fine too because if you chose to play in a game that offers such items, you should be willing to pony up and buy them to be competitive.

    You may have missed my earlier suggestion, highlighted above, GW2 probably is one of the few, and certainly is the largest to deliver the sort of PVP you want (balanced, fair, equal) in an open environment. Planetside 2 is another good choice but it sounds like you're not really into MMOFPS type games.

    Pretty much every other MMORPG out there goes with the model of allowing players to gain a competitive advantage through activities outside of PVP, it's part of the genre really, and expected by many players.

    Now, back to your OP, about my best and worst PVP systems

    1) A toss up here, DAOC for the traditional low risk, low reward combat, love the mechanics and am currently playing a version of it now.  My Skald rocks in the BG's (no limits on number of players, sometimes we zerg, sometimes we get zerged)

    2) EVE is another favorite, mostly because it simulates real life well, the risk of loss strongly encourages you not to lose, in fact, to not even engage unless you have no choice, have been out manuvered or are confident of your success.

    And there's no concept about fairness in EVE, in fact, the motto is, if you find yourself in a fair fight, you've done something wrong. (well, except maybe in the EVE annual tourney)

    Worst PVP model, well that would be any that I didn't like right?  More specifically, it was in fact a F2P title, Runes of Magic that I thought had a bad cash shop model, you literally could make yourself invincible by spending large sums of cash (one guy I met spent $8K on his armor) so I took the advice I gave you earlier, I exited the game because no way was I going to try to compete at those cash levels.

    I get it, you want fair, team sport like combat.  Me, I favor MMO's which provide other means to succeed outside of who can click the buttons the best.

     

     

     

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  • usuckmmorpgcomusuckmmorpgcom c, KYPosts: 1,348Member

    I'll have to think more about which one is best.

    Worst is easy...GW2.

  • flizzerflizzer Manchester, NHPosts: 1,550Member Uncommon
    I also believe GW2 PvP is one of the best; however, I'm not so sure I would agree that gear is irrelevant.  Gear is easy to get and really doesn't require much grinding/effort, but to say it doesn't matter is not entirely correct. 
  • Ender4Ender4 milwaukee, WIPosts: 2,253Member

    Sadly Everquest probably had the best and it wasn't even supported by the devs. PvP with a purpose of controlling the PvE content is so much better than some silly battleground where you are fighting over flags or some keep that changes hands constantly. GW2 PvP is just a zerg fest though maybe the new stuff they added recently fixed it. I guess if I'm stuck with PvP in a box something like that would be what I would choose.

  • PAL-18PAL-18 AnachronoxPosts: 802Member

    Best : Anarchy Online Notum Wars

    Worst : GW2 ,theres no PvP in GW2.

     

    So, did ESO have a successful launch? Yes, yes it did.
    By Ryan Getchell on April 02, 2014.
    **On the radar:http://cyberpunk.net/**

  • MuffinStumpMuffinStump Frankfort, KYPosts: 474Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Kyleran
    MMORPG combat has never traditionally been about being fair and balanced, in fact quite the opposite, it usually has some means for a player to get a leg up on the competition via level disparities, improved gear, more skills/abilities or even better tactics or taking advantage of game deficiencies such as lag, overpowered class etc.In fact, it's a bit of a core feature really, the ability to improve your kill rate by utilizing things other than your natural /practiced ability to manipulate a keyboard. Face it, only a handful of people can win if we base it purely on skill, but toss in the improvements players can get by being willing to grind through PVE and other activities flips the balance, suddenly you can be a pretty average player but bury people based on other factors, and  at the end of the day, it's all about who wins, not how they do it. (within the confines of the rules of the game of course)So if your looking for combat that is more team sport like, MOBA's and FPS shooter have been more balanced and relying on player "skill", though GW2 probably does one of the better jobs providing a level playing field, which is why many people actually don't care for the PVP in that case.But MMO's, especially in open world combat have traditionally been about exploiting your advantages, including bringing a zerg to crush your opposition, and toss in something like full loot and then the stakes get really high, and it isn't about the fight anymore, and all about winning, period.So WOW delivers the type of combat the player base wants, nothing wrong with it, but it will frustrate you if you want a more fair playing field.  

    This.

    You can pretty much insert this quote into any MMO PvP discussion as a base on which to further discuss PvP.

    At any rate, I like DAoC pvp (aside from the early buffing/buffbot problems) because of the divided nature of the world. Combat mechanics aside, it really did seem as if you had a purpose. Fighting for realm pride and so on. Almost like rooting for your favorite football team (get out your jerseys and foam fingers)

  • kDeviLkDeviL Coco Beach, FLPosts: 215Member Uncommon

    CONQUER ONLINE BABY!

     

    1.0 that is.  This game's pvp system destroys anything I've seen in over 10 years of MMOs.  They were probably the only MMO to REALLY get open world PK right because it gave you incredible freedom while also preventing greifing.  It worked like this:

     

    - Attack absolutely anyone absolutely anywhere in the world, even inside cities.  However if you attacked someone in the wrong part of the city a city guard would kill you.

     

    - 30 pk points meant going red named and having a chance to lose gear if killed, 100 pk points meant black named and having a guarenteed chance to drop gear as well as being sent to jail when killed.

     

    - Normal Kill = 10 PK points,  Enemy guild = 3 PK points,  Personal enemy = 5 PK points

     

    - Pk points reduce one at a time every 6 minutes.

     

    What this did was allow for huge guild fights to happen all over the world, especially inside of cities.  But it prevented griefing and ganking noobs because it would be a waste of PK points.  Losing gear was a big deal.

     

     

    HOWEVER! DO NOT PLAY THIS GAME NOW!

      Although this game really used to be an incredible MMO in the genre, This game now destroys any previous thought you have ever had about the term "Pay to Win."  You literally need to spend a couple hundred dollars to even stand a chance with half the people that play it. Most don't even speak english anymore.  If you really want to play the game then go for a private server.

    If WoW was released today even in its' entirety it would be f2p in 3 months.
    Why is it still such a big deal?

  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 19,998Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by grimgryphon

    I'll have to think more about which one is best.

    Worst is easy...GW2.

    Originally posted by flizzer
    I also believe GW2 PvP is one of the best; however, I'm not so sure I would agree that gear is irrelevant.  Gear is easy to get and really doesn't require much grinding/effort, but to say it doesn't matter is not entirely correct. 

    Interesting the diametrically opposed responses one right after another, just proving we all have different preferences in our PVP models when it comes to MMORPG combat.

     

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  • rodingorodingo Posts: 2,346Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by rodingo
    Unfortunately most games with pvp revolve around gear.  The only games that I have played this year that don't is GW2 and Planetside 2.  All the other games that I played that had pvp this year such as Rift, Swtor, AoW, all base a big chunk off of gear.  In other words gear trumps skill in those games.  Some people like that, however I don't and I know I'm not the only one. 

    If you want pure pvp, play LoL, star conflict, or WoT, and forget about MMORPGs.

     

    I mostly agree.  If I want quick, pure, down and dirty pvp that centers around player skill then I play SMITE in arena or assault mode.   That game quickly separates those with skill and those with out.  When I feel like playing something large scale I then play GW2 or Planetside 2. 

    "If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor

  • XssivXssiv Haskell, NJPosts: 359Member

    I've focused mostly on PvP in MMO's since SWG in 2003 (raids on Anchorhead FTW).  

     

    While I enjoy PvP in several games,  I probably spent the most time PvP'ing in WoW because it offered a nice variety of BG's with varied objectives as well as arenas.  

    People cry about being at a gear disadvantage in the beginning but it's not like the people with awesome gear somehow magically obtained it.  We had to get our butts kicked for the first week or two as well.  Stop complaining.  

    I also enjoyed WoW's PvP because gear upgrades actually provided noticeable survivability and dmg / healing output.   A lot of people (particularly on this site) seem to frown upon stat / gear progression but it definitely kept me playing for years.  

     

    I enjoyed GW2's SPVP for a bit but after about 15-20 ranks, it gets kinda old, especially when there's no way to improve your stats / survivability.   I appreciate the idea of focusing on skill over gear but without the proverbial carrot, I simply lost interest after a few weeks.  

     

    I play quite a bit of Smite and find that it definitely offers a solid PvP experience but I find that I miss having a persistent world and a server community which is why I tend to spend more time playing MMO's, even if the PvP is subpar. 

     

     

     

     

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by rodingo
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by rodingo
    Unfortunately most games with pvp revolve around gear.  The only games that I have played this year that don't is GW2 and Planetside 2.  All the other games that I played that had pvp this year such as Rift, Swtor, AoW, all base a big chunk off of gear.  In other words gear trumps skill in those games.  Some people like that, however I don't and I know I'm not the only one. 

    If you want pure pvp, play LoL, star conflict, or WoT, and forget about MMORPGs.

     

    I mostly agree.  If I want quick, pure, down and dirty pvp that centers around player skill then I play SMITE in arena or assault mode.   That game quickly separates those with skill and those with out.  When I feel like playing something large scale I then play GW2 or Planetside 2. 

    Yeh ... ps2 is a good choice for large scale combat. The key is that all these games (except GW2) focus 100% on pvp.

  • GrableGrable LjubljanaPosts: 66Member
    Originally posted by kDeviL

    CONQUER ONLINE BABY!

     

    1.0 that is.  This game's pvp system destroys anything I've seen in over 10 years of MMOs.  They were probably the only MMO to REALLY get open world PK right because it gave you incredible freedom while also preventing greifing.  It worked like this:

     

    - Attack absolutely anyone absolutely anywhere in the world, even inside cities.  However if you attacked someone in the wrong part of the city a city guard would kill you.

     

    - 30 pk points meant going red named and having a chance to lose gear if killed, 100 pk points meant black named and having a guarenteed chance to drop gear as well as being sent to jail when killed.

     

    - Normal Kill = 10 PK points,  Enemy guild = 3 PK points,  Personal enemy = 5 PK points

     

    - Pk points reduce one at a time every 6 minutes.

     

    What this did was allow for huge guild fights to happen all over the world, especially inside of cities.  But it prevented griefing and ganking noobs because it would be a waste of PK points.  Losing gear was a big deal.

     

     

    HOWEVER! DO NOT PLAY THIS GAME NOW!

      Although this game really used to be an incredible MMO in the genre, This game now destroys any previous thought you have ever had about the term "Pay to Win."  You literally need to spend a couple hundred dollars to even stand a chance with half the people that play it. Most don't even speak english anymore.  If you really want to play the game then go for a private server.

     

    I can only +1 this. I had so much fun with open world pvp in Conquer Online. Sadly it's very grindy and it's a huge pay2win. 1.0 was the best. Sadly all the private servers are empty :(

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