Personal story is great...for a single player game. The problem with putting them into an MMORPG is that it makes the MMORPG more like a single player game, which is pretty silly when the things that makes MMORPGs unique and special are the grouping and social aspects.
Why is it a problem? If a MMO plays like a good SP game, i will play it as such. In fact, i do.
This whole thing about MMORPGs being unique and special ... is irrelevant to me. If a game is good ... as a SP game ... i will play it despite the fact that it may be in the "wrong" genre.
Originally posted by Piechunks There's a niche for games like that, they're called RPG's.
That "niche" stands for a whole genre, it's called MMORPG. You want games without a story, go play stuff like Battlefield or CounterStrike. These are Online games all right, perhaps even Multiplayer but certainly not massive and least of all RPG's.
Story doesn't make a game into an RPG. Role Playing does. Most of these personal stories offer little or no freedom of choice to play your role. It's a predefined story with a few forks in the path.RPG is born from player interaction, where both parties can react to any number of situations and adapt accordingly.Unfortunately the gaming crowd of today has been fed lies and substandard products for years and today most consider RPG to mean increasing stats on your character sheet and a modicum of ready-chewed story.Anyone who participated into the lively roleplaying scene of Ultima Online at the time of it's height knows the difference between stories that the players conjure for themselves and the ones the developers shove down your throat.The difference is that no story is truly Personal unless you make it yourself.
In agreement here. When there is a personal story, I am now playing the devs character, not mine. Sure, I may have 2 or 3 choices in the story, but they will all lead to the same conclusion - "Hero of the Land!"
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by Methos12 I just want it to be optional like in GW2.
I'd rather they didn't take development time and money away from important features for some scripted half ass "singleplayer" experience that is about a thousand times worse than the average actual singleplayer RPG. Stick to strengths. OP is 100% spot on.
Originally posted by Piechunks Yet another negative post, but hey... there's no use dicussing something you're already content with, right?Why would you spend so much time and effort on something that is completely disjoint with the online experience?There's a niche for games like that, they're called RPG's. The technology for immersive single player storylines has been around for over 50 years, the entire reason games didn't "exploit" it was due to the fact that people generally want to play with others when they log onto an online game. If you want to see an example of a game that had a great personal story, but nothing else (in my opinion and in that of many others, or else it wouldn't have gone f2p) is SWToR:Every games personal story is leagues behind the latters, yet those games are doing markedly better.Please, CEOs/game directors, get rid of this ridiculous abomination that only serves to fragment the in-game community and add to costs needlessly.
options are good, why get rid of something that people enjoy? just because you don't like it doesn't mean other people don't.
Originally posted by Methos12 I just want it to be optional like in GW2.
I'd rather they didn't take development time and money away from important features for some scripted half ass "singleplayer" experience that is about a thousand times worse than the average actual singleplayer RPG. Stick to strengths. OP is 100% spot on.
what if their audience think solo content is an important feature?
In that case, yes .. please put good SP experience into the game, and don't waste resources in creating a virtual world, or social stuff.
In fact, i think TOR and TSW, and Marvel Heroes can use that advice. I wouldn't mind a bit if all the "MMO" features are taken away from those games.
I don't mind quests or stories tied to your class / race / individual choices... as it makes your character feel unique. EQ1/2 did this well with epic quests and racial quests.
But I really hate this 'you are the ultimate hero' bullcrap that is creeping into the genre. The whole point of a MMO is that you are working together with a community to achieve the outcomes you desire.
If you want to be an epic overpowered hero, thats what single player games are for. They manage that type of story far more convincingly because you arent surrounded by other people who are also the ultimate hero. I don't want to be the most powerful being in the universe in a MMO, and its silly that in these games you are portrayed to be all powerful while you are doing your solo quests, and then you suddenly need the help of a bunch of other randoms to do dungeons / raids. Its disjointed and stupid.
At the very least they should move away from 'everyone is a hero' type stories and just have the player as someone contributing / helping without being more powerful than everyone else.
options are good, why get rid of something that people enjoy? just because you don't like it doesn't mean other people don't.
Probably because it isnt actually optional for people who don't like it. Sure in SWTOR you could just not do it, but you are severely lowering your experience and rewards. Also you need to do the quests to get your companions.
In FFXIV you need to do the story to unlock dungeons, mounts and other things.
Everyone gets spoon fed this crap about being the most powerful being in the whole world (and is then surrounded by thousands of other players who got told the exact same thing).
The very existance of these solo epic stories ruin the world and immersion for many players. There are plenty of single player games we can fill that niche far better than a MMO ever can.
Originally posted by maplestone I need a little more context as to why the forum is suddenly awash with threads on this topic.
I would hazard a guess and say the recent release of FFXIV. The epic story is terrible and compulsory. While SWTORs quests were annoying in a immersion breaking way, at least they were interesting enough to qualify as single player stories.
Originally posted by maplestone I need a little more context as to why the forum is suddenly awash with threads on this topic.
I would hazard a guess and say the recent release of FFXIV. The epic story is terrible and compulsory. While SWTORs quests were annoying in a immersion breaking way, at least they were interesting enough to qualify as single player stories.
Thank you. I have to admit I've completely missed the FF series over the years. Oddly I skipped it because the various videos made it look a little too story-focused for my tastes ... if this is really what has provoked the OP, I guess my question would be what he expected he was getting himself into when he signed up?
im curious as to why you typed "pre-WOW'? world of warcraft didn't/doesn't offer much if any in the way of personal story. personal story seems to be a new trend in "AAA" mmo's. with swtor and gw2 having, well....a whole personal story line.
That's a good point actually. WoW arguably feels a lot more mmo then swtor or gw2 probably because of this.
Though on the scale of "mmo-ness" it probably doesn't feel as mmo as SWG or DA0C either, where which can actually feel a virtual world happening.
I think a great storyline that everyone shares is better than a personalized one you can't share.
THis a million times this.
A game without story is garbage. An optional personal story is ok but the main story of the game should be shared with everyone and impacts everyones gameplay because the players are all living in the same world. And this is why levels need to go away, so the story can safely evolve throughout the game affecting the world and everyone in it no matter how long you've been playing.
I had to vote yes, that personal story should stay in game (at least that is what i intended to vote for, I think the Op digressed a bit to much into explanation and I was a bit unclear on what this thread is about from the first post alone).
I like the personal story aspect. I usually find that the epic storyline is lacking (when one exists in a clear manner) because it has to try so hard to be about every one. I think having personal story not only makes up for this. It also helps me really get to know the games lore by involving me in it. And, in-so-much helps me appreciate the epic storyline more.
Also, I find that in a lot of RPG the storyline ultimately tends to be very generic (despite varying details a lot of the story goes to the main point which is usually the classical heroes quest)...I posted the video in this reply as satire towards that point....The RPG personal storyline is rarely so special that it should be confined strictly to that domain.
Personal story in MMORPGS... the least cost-effective content in all of gaming! VO! Animations and cut scenes galore! Super easy so anyone can breeze through it! It's the last thing a developer should want to create. Having to sink loads of resources and staff into something that can be completed fast and easy. Imo, they would be better off investing that money into interesting game systems with high replay value than something that seems like a big "one and done". It's a surefire way to sell lots of boxes and retain no subscribers... which quite honestly could be the goal in some cases lol.
Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.
Personal story in MMORPGS... the least cost-effective content in all of gaming! VO! Animations and cut scenes galore! Super easy so anyone can breeze through it! It's the last thing a developer should want to create. Having to sink loads of resources and staff into something that can be completed fast and easy. Imo, they would be better off investing that money into interesting game systems with high replay value than something that seems like a big "one and done". It's a surefire way to sell lots of boxes and retain no subscribers... which quite honestly could be the goal in some cases lol.
Indeed. But that's what the genre has devolved into. Both developers and gamers have been funneled into thinking that the only way to make an MMO is that the developers create content and the players consume it. Sandbox games are pretty much dead at this point, if we don't count EVE, which in turn has it's own problems that prevent it from becoming more popular.
Instead of giving players lots of content, the developers could give them lots of tools (or systems, as you put it) instead. With those tools, the multitude of players could create their own stories and their own content, effectively freeing the developer to work on more tools and more systems. This is practically exactly how the development of Ultima Online went forward. I dare to wager it had a budget that is a fraction of modern AAA MMOs, but it still managed to hold more than 200k subscribers for years. Something even SWTOR could not achieve, with its massive budget.
Currently I am hoping that ArcheAge and EQNext will be the next games to take this different approach, although neither of them will probably launch very soon.
Originally posted by evilastro Originally posted by baphametoptions are good, why get rid of something that people enjoy? just because you don't like it doesn't mean other people don't.
Probably because it isnt actually optional for people who don't like it. Sure in SWTOR you could just not do it, but you are severely lowering your experience and rewards. Also you need to do the quests to get your companions.
In FFXIV you need to do the story to unlock dungeons, mounts and other things.
Everyone gets spoon fed this crap about being the most powerful being in the whole world (and is then surrounded by thousands of other players who got told the exact same thing).
The very existance of these solo epic stories ruin the world and immersion for many players. There are plenty of single player games we can fill that niche far better than a MMO ever can.
every game doesn't have to be tailor made to fit your personal play style and taste, does it?
that's what i mean by options, as in different games with different features. some can have the story content and be more themepark like and others can go a more traditional mmo route with more social aspects and not as much scripting.
Originally posted by tom_gore Story doesn't make a game into an RPG. Role Playing does.
Well, how do you RP if there's no story, no background? Is the roleplaying of an Elf the same in a AD&D setting as it is in a LotR setting? Or does a AD&D Elf RP the same like a Shadowrun Elf? I think not.
You need to have a story to place your RP *ON*. That's why in a well-led P&P RPG you are asked by your master to develop a background story for your char.
Originally posted by tom_gore RPG is born from player interaction, where both parties can react to any number of situations and adapt accordingly.
My first reaction to this was "bullshit". My second (and "official") reaction is: Well, not quite.
MMORPGs originally *substituted* the RP-player-group. Depending on how "free" the NPCs are programmed (and granted, they're not coded all too flexibly in most MMOs) your RP has influence on or even a defning quality to your gaming experience even if there's NO player-interaction involved. That's why factions have entered the games, although faction systems could be (much) more detailed.
Originally posted by tom_gore Unfortunately the gaming crowd of today has been fed lies and substandard products for years and today most consider RPG to mean increasing stats on your character sheet and a modicum of ready-chewed story.
Sorry to have to say it, but this is utter bull. What you describe above is called "progression", not role-playing.
But true, in recent years less and less effort was invested in "story". If i might remind people of EQ back in Kunark or Velious times, back there "story" (and which "route" you followed, faction-choices you made) actually mattered for your gameplay experience. But in Luclin, this was lessened and it was basically non-existant ever since PoP, where both story and progression became quite linear and faction choices were either not existant or didn't "carry over".
Originally posted by tom_gore The difference is that no story is truly Personal unless you make it yourself.
"personal story" to ME is what your char has encountered, what formed how you play him. Player-created stuff is nice, but unless we're talking P&P roleplaying, it doesn't MATTER. That's why "true RP" has been all but abandoned in basically all MMO's, in favor of "professionalism" and min/maxing.
Originally posted by Neo_Viper Maybe getting rid of those would get rid of a few of the people who play those games as single player games and pull the whole genre down the drain...
"Down the drain" is subjective. Down the drain for you, fun for many others.
It is a free world. Devs are free to choose their audience.
Comments
Why is it a problem? If a MMO plays like a good SP game, i will play it as such. In fact, i do.
This whole thing about MMORPGs being unique and special ... is irrelevant to me. If a game is good ... as a SP game ... i will play it despite the fact that it may be in the "wrong" genre.
I don't play genre. I play games.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
options are good, why get rid of something that people enjoy? just because you don't like it doesn't mean other people don't.
what if their audience think solo content is an important feature?
In that case, yes .. please put good SP experience into the game, and don't waste resources in creating a virtual world, or social stuff.
In fact, i think TOR and TSW, and Marvel Heroes can use that advice. I wouldn't mind a bit if all the "MMO" features are taken away from those games.
I don't mind quests or stories tied to your class / race / individual choices... as it makes your character feel unique. EQ1/2 did this well with epic quests and racial quests.
But I really hate this 'you are the ultimate hero' bullcrap that is creeping into the genre. The whole point of a MMO is that you are working together with a community to achieve the outcomes you desire.
If you want to be an epic overpowered hero, thats what single player games are for. They manage that type of story far more convincingly because you arent surrounded by other people who are also the ultimate hero. I don't want to be the most powerful being in the universe in a MMO, and its silly that in these games you are portrayed to be all powerful while you are doing your solo quests, and then you suddenly need the help of a bunch of other randoms to do dungeons / raids. Its disjointed and stupid.
At the very least they should move away from 'everyone is a hero' type stories and just have the player as someone contributing / helping without being more powerful than everyone else.
Probably because it isnt actually optional for people who don't like it. Sure in SWTOR you could just not do it, but you are severely lowering your experience and rewards. Also you need to do the quests to get your companions.
In FFXIV you need to do the story to unlock dungeons, mounts and other things.
Everyone gets spoon fed this crap about being the most powerful being in the whole world (and is then surrounded by thousands of other players who got told the exact same thing).
The very existance of these solo epic stories ruin the world and immersion for many players. There are plenty of single player games we can fill that niche far better than a MMO ever can.
I would hazard a guess and say the recent release of FFXIV. The epic story is terrible and compulsory. While SWTORs quests were annoying in a immersion breaking way, at least they were interesting enough to qualify as single player stories.
Thank you. I have to admit I've completely missed the FF series over the years. Oddly I skipped it because the various videos made it look a little too story-focused for my tastes ... if this is really what has provoked the OP, I guess my question would be what he expected he was getting himself into when he signed up?
That's a good point actually. WoW arguably feels a lot more mmo then swtor or gw2 probably because of this.
Though on the scale of "mmo-ness" it probably doesn't feel as mmo as SWG or DA0C either, where which can actually feel a virtual world happening.
THis a million times this.
A game without story is garbage. An optional personal story is ok but the main story of the game should be shared with everyone and impacts everyones gameplay because the players are all living in the same world. And this is why levels need to go away, so the story can safely evolve throughout the game affecting the world and everyone in it no matter how long you've been playing.
I had to vote yes, that personal story should stay in game (at least that is what i intended to vote for, I think the Op digressed a bit to much into explanation and I was a bit unclear on what this thread is about from the first post alone).
I like the personal story aspect. I usually find that the epic storyline is lacking (when one exists in a clear manner) because it has to try so hard to be about every one. I think having personal story not only makes up for this. It also helps me really get to know the games lore by involving me in it. And, in-so-much helps me appreciate the epic storyline more.
Also, I find that in a lot of RPG the storyline ultimately tends to be very generic (despite varying details a lot of the story goes to the main point which is usually the classical heroes quest)...I posted the video in this reply as satire towards that point....The RPG personal storyline is rarely so special that it should be confined strictly to that domain.
Personal story in MMORPGS... the least cost-effective content in all of gaming! VO! Animations and cut scenes galore! Super easy so anyone can breeze through it! It's the last thing a developer should want to create. Having to sink loads of resources and staff into something that can be completed fast and easy. Imo, they would be better off investing that money into interesting game systems with high replay value than something that seems like a big "one and done". It's a surefire way to sell lots of boxes and retain no subscribers... which quite honestly could be the goal in some cases lol.
Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.
Indeed. But that's what the genre has devolved into. Both developers and gamers have been funneled into thinking that the only way to make an MMO is that the developers create content and the players consume it. Sandbox games are pretty much dead at this point, if we don't count EVE, which in turn has it's own problems that prevent it from becoming more popular.
Instead of giving players lots of content, the developers could give them lots of tools (or systems, as you put it) instead. With those tools, the multitude of players could create their own stories and their own content, effectively freeing the developer to work on more tools and more systems. This is practically exactly how the development of Ultima Online went forward. I dare to wager it had a budget that is a fraction of modern AAA MMOs, but it still managed to hold more than 200k subscribers for years. Something even SWTOR could not achieve, with its massive budget.
Currently I am hoping that ArcheAge and EQNext will be the next games to take this different approach, although neither of them will probably launch very soon.
Probably because it isnt actually optional for people who don't like it. Sure in SWTOR you could just not do it, but you are severely lowering your experience and rewards. Also you need to do the quests to get your companions.
In FFXIV you need to do the story to unlock dungeons, mounts and other things.
Everyone gets spoon fed this crap about being the most powerful being in the whole world (and is then surrounded by thousands of other players who got told the exact same thing).
The very existance of these solo epic stories ruin the world and immersion for many players. There are plenty of single player games we can fill that niche far better than a MMO ever can.
every game doesn't have to be tailor made to fit your personal play style and taste, does it?
that's what i mean by options, as in different games with different features. some can have the story content and be more themepark like and others can go a more traditional mmo route with more social aspects and not as much scripting.
options are good for everyone.
Is the roleplaying of an Elf the same in a AD&D setting as it is in a LotR setting?
Or does a AD&D Elf RP the same like a Shadowrun Elf?
I think not.
You need to have a story to place your RP *ON*.
That's why in a well-led P&P RPG you are asked by your master to develop a background story for your char.
My first reaction to this was "bullshit".My second (and "official") reaction is: Well, not quite.
MMORPGs originally *substituted* the RP-player-group.
Depending on how "free" the NPCs are programmed (and granted, they're not coded all too flexibly in most MMOs) your RP has influence on or even a defning quality to your gaming experience even if there's NO player-interaction involved.
That's why factions have entered the games, although faction systems could be (much) more detailed.
Sorry to have to say it, but this is utter bull.What you describe above is called "progression", not role-playing.
But true, in recent years less and less effort was invested in "story".
If i might remind people of EQ back in Kunark or Velious times, back there "story" (and which "route" you followed, faction-choices you made) actually mattered for your gameplay experience.
But in Luclin, this was lessened and it was basically non-existant ever since PoP, where both story and progression became quite linear and faction choices were either not existant or didn't "carry over".
"personal story" to ME is what your char has encountered, what formed how you play him.Player-created stuff is nice, but unless we're talking P&P roleplaying, it doesn't MATTER.
That's why "true RP" has been all but abandoned in basically all MMO's, in favor of "professionalism" and min/maxing.
My computer is better than yours.
"Down the drain" is subjective. Down the drain for you, fun for many others.
It is a free world. Devs are free to choose their audience.