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What happened to crafting?

2

Comments

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by DavisFlight

    Just like everything else good or complex in MMOs, WoW got rid of it.

    "good" is subjective.

    WOW got rid of open world pvp. WOW got rid of hard core only raiding. Wow got rid of talking in channel before you can find a group.

    All good to me.

     

  • tupodawg999tupodawg999 LondonPosts: 724Member Uncommon

    There's crafting and there's trading. The trading economy part of crafting requires some kind of decay to maintain supply and demand.

     

    For those people who specifically get a kick out of the crafting process or from playing a crafter character a game can provide that by making the crafting process interesting in itself - not just a crafting mini-game but the whole process of learning recipes, skills, finding and gathering materials etc.

     

    Even in a game like WoW if you had specific crafting character classes with their own path through the game (or if a skill based game then separate trees of crafting skills) then being a crafter could be made interesting separately from the economy.

     

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by tupodawg999

    There's crafting and there's trading. The trading economy part of crafting requires some kind of decay to maintain supply and demand.

     

     

    That is not the only way. You can create new demand by having new tiers of gear (like WOW). You will then have a cyclical pattern of demand, instead of a steady level.

    Who can say which is better.

  • tupodawg999tupodawg999 LondonPosts: 724Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by tupodawg999

    There's crafting and there's trading. The trading economy part of crafting requires some kind of decay to maintain supply and demand.

     

     

    That is not the only way. You can create new demand by having new tiers of gear (like WOW). You will then have a cyclical pattern of demand, instead of a steady level.

    Who can say which is better.

     

    That is decay - you just decayed the previous top tier.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by tupodawg999
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by tupodawg999

    There's crafting and there's trading. The trading economy part of crafting requires some kind of decay to maintain supply and demand.

     

     

    That is not the only way. You can create new demand by having new tiers of gear (like WOW). You will then have a cyclical pattern of demand, instead of a steady level.

    Who can say which is better.

     

    That is decay - you just decayed the previous top tier.

    Well .. that is semantics. In that case, i would say there are multiple kinds of decay. This kind is obviously different from the kind that destroy the item.

     

  • BoneserinoBoneserino London, ONPosts: 1,623Member Uncommon

    OP has obviously not played Fallen Earth if he believes good crafting does not exist. 

    It does.

    FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!

  • gtalove888gtalove888 Chicago, ILPosts: 2Member
    Fallen Earth does have a good crafting system....especially with the vehicles
  • 5Luck5Luck Shelton, CTPosts: 185Member
    Originally posted by Maurgrim
    Vanguard have a robust crafting minigame onpar with SWG you should check it out.

    IMO Vanguard is the game that ruined crafting. It was one of the 1st(that i played) that offered class "spheres" meaning yes you could not craft everything but your crafter was also a combatant. That is what changed things.

    If you want a crafting economy there is no way around it. You need to have a crafting class. Not a mage with silk weaving but a choice between either a mage or a silk weaver.

    Now I wont completly say vanguard was a bad crafting game. It wasnt. The crafting was fun and you ended up with rare-ish items through the system but again what it did do was remove the crafter as a 1st class and made it 2ndary.

     

    SWG well that was a whole other level. AFAIK it was the only game to present stats for mats that actually made a noticable impact on not only design but overall quality. It was unbelivable...

     

    *edit oo
    drops..

     

    I always felt drops should not ever happen as a "set" there should be a rare arm guard from a certain encounter that is better then any crafter can make. Then it is the crafters job to make a suit that suports that arm guard for those that have it and a suit that incorperates their own crafted arm guard for those that dont...

     

    Edit#2 hehe

    one of the main drives for the edit #1 post was the total charater "look" Meaning that if you conglomerated all the rare drops that were not part of a full set you looked bad.. and that needed to be adressed as it was a HUGH thing on many forums just before things were changed..

  • orchestraloverxorchestraloverx Kara, KYPosts: 3Member
    I would recommend FFVIX if you want to craft, I guess.  Beautiful game...but slow paced
  • BurntvetBurntvet Baltimore, MDPosts: 2,941Member Uncommon

    The same things that happened to player interdependency, group dynamics and content, real player-based economies, open virtual worlds, and the like: the devs all copied WoW instead, and dumped as all that stuff as not worth the effort, too hard, or straight up not wanted.

    And then they instanced everything on top of it.

    And why? Because the consumers of MMOs, by majority, want simplified and easy everything, and the simplified and lazy devs are only too happy to pump that crap out.

    I swear, its like MMO Idiocracy.

     

    (And the crafting in FE was better than average, but not in the same league as SWG, same with Vanguard.)

  • RecoreRecore Posts: 5,095Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Grahor

    To have crafting you need economy. To have economy you need constant demand. To have demand you need items to be removed from players' hands, being it by damage decay, death decay, time decay or any other way. In any case, players have to regularly lose their items.

     

    Players don't like it. So the games were developed whete the player can buy a sword and have that sword until end of time. Thus, no economy for sword-manufacturers. Extrapolate to all other non-decaying items...

     

    Mostly current games have economies based on expiring products, like food and potions. EvE, with full item decay, has a huge economy and is pretty much heaven for crafters.

     

    Crafting died because players didn't want to be bothered with economy and/or possibility that their "hard-earned" raid item will decay. So they've killed it.

     

     

    Pretty much hit the nail on the head. I have never been a crafter but I can tell you as long as you can easily get gear from quest or drops then crafting will never be what it should be. There is not a themepark game on the market that has meaningful crafting. Sure it may be fun to do but not something that the players depend upon.

    Raptr Gamercard
  • TissmogiTissmogi Portland, OHPosts: 177Member
    Originally posted by Theocritus
    Originally posted by SpottyGekko

    No, I don't believe that "WoW killed crafting".

     

    Meaningful crafting was removed from mainstream MMO's because the majority of modern MMO players couldn't be bothered with it. Loot drops superceded crafted products and took center stage in most MMO's.

     

    FFXIV:ARR is the first AAA game in a long time that has a decent crafting system. With some effort, crafted gear (pre level-cap) can actually be made marginally better than quest or loot rewards, but endgame dungeon drops still trump all, of course.

     Thats just it...It became much easier just to run a dungeon than to put in several weeks/months maxxing a crafter......I still think the way it should work is get the best drops from raids, but have the ability for a crafter to improve the gear even more....That way you get the best of both worlds.

    Not true. Crafted and melded gear is better than what you can get from dungeons or with dungeon tokens. You need crafters to "repair" dungeon drops, creating items from dungeon drops.

    Heavy Darksteel Armour or the 2 Vanya Sets are still the best gear in the game if you put Materia in them (which also needs a crafter)

    The only items that beat these sets are dropped from Bahamuts Coil. The current top end Dungeon that only 3% of the player base have access to and only less than 1% are able to get loot from even with access.

    Gear leaves the economy when it gets converted into Materia. That materia gets attached by a crafter to new Gear which then again, eventually get's converted again. The gear economy is very healthy.

  • Originally posted by Theocritus
    ...It became much easier just to run a dungeon than to put in several weeks/months maxxing a crafter......I still think the way it should work is get the best drops from raids, but have the ability for a crafter to improve the gear even more....That way you get the best of both worlds.

    I like your thinking.  You could also add a smaller portion of itemization slots available only through crafting.  That way the raiders can get their armor, weapons, and money from raiding; and use that money to buy the crafted itemization they want.

     

    MMOs can have a huge economy for crafters running just off a couple needed items slots, item enhancements, and lots of non-gear itemization.  For example housing, city building, pvp armaments, harvesters or mining operations, etc.

     

    I know I'm biased due to my like of crafting, but I really believe there's a lot of modern mmos that could have become a hit had they simply added a reasonable amount of sandbox and crafting to their games.  Crafting gets more players and gives your raiders added variety for downtime. 

  • GallaidGallaid Salem, ORPosts: 118Member
    Originally posted by zaxxon23
    Originally posted by Theocritus
    ...It became much easier just to run a dungeon than to put in several weeks/months maxxing a crafter......I still think the way it should work is get the best drops from raids, but have the ability for a crafter to improve the gear even more....That way you get the best of both worlds.

    I like your thinking.  You could also add a smaller portion of itemization slots available only through crafting.  That way the raiders can get their armor, weapons, and money from raiding; and use that money to buy the crafted itemization they want.

     

    MMOs can have a huge economy for crafters running just off a couple needed items slots, item enhancements, and lots of non-gear itemization.  For example housing, city building, pvp armaments, harvesters or mining operations, etc.

     

    I know I'm biased due to my like of crafting, but I really believe there's a lot of modern mmos that could have become a hit had they simply added a reasonable amount of sandbox and crafting to their games.  Crafting gets more players and gives your raiders added variety for downtime. 

    The thing is to have a good crafting system the game has to have a good PvP backbone. Take eve for instance pretty much the only thing in the game is PvP. Yes there are PvE opps but most corps have some sort of PvP. Crafting will not work if people can go into a raid over and over again to get the best gear. The best gear should be craft able maybe to keep rarity maybe there is a certain Item that drops on a raid. If an fighting hero can go around and kill everything why cant crafters create name worthy weapons. Improving gear will not completely satisfy a crafter. Crafters like to make objects used by someone every day.

    I believe the small things do matter also. In UO having a castle totally pimped out. The decorations were made by a crafter. Also I remember going to a tailor in (SWG) and being fitted (trying on clothes and seeing if i like them). Or even hiring a home decorator to come in and decorate my house. This was one of the best parts about playing. Yes it was fun to have PvE missions and even PvP attacks but the best parts were the small things. These days I have found that the non-combat small things are lacking. 

    If there is a semi-open economy then it will run it self. EvE  is a great example. they try to have a hands off approach to the game as much as possible. CCP even hired an economist to analyze what will happen with new patches and such.

  • Yodi2007Yodi2007 Valdosta, GAPosts: 167Member

    FFXIV has good crafting, but as another poster said it still gets trumped by endgame gear because the endgame stuff is easy to acquire. FFXIV's crafting requires other crafting class abilities to truly make it worth while. I mean im not filthy rich ( I only have 10 million gill on a legacy server).

    Crafting is not longer an art in MMO's anymore its a bastard child none wants!

    PS: Maybe FFXIV housing with patch 2.1 might make crafting viable again.....

    Below is where we can disscuss and come up with new ideas for Sandparks!

    http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/5164689#5164689

  • neorandomneorandom bev hills, CAPosts: 1,681Member

    vanilla wow had you crafting some of the good items in the game (armor weapons ammo alchemical stuff) all competative with group content gear to get you raiding for sets, and even some raid blueprints dropped for top notch epics to craft.

     

    the community hated it, bitched constantly, and wow made crafting the mootness it is now.

  • JemcrystalJemcrystal Champaign, ILPosts: 1,552Member Uncommon
    I think game makers think of crafting as an after thought.  I think crafting should be the main focus of a game.  Thus Minecraft is on my PC.

  • RusqueRusque Las Vegas, NVPosts: 2,228Member Uncommon

    When people say "meaningful crafting" are they actually referring to crafting or are you guys talking about "crafting driven economies?"

     

    I ask because crafting has pretty much been lame in every game ever. It's usually just a button click, sometimes a mini-game that has little to do with that craft. I do leatherwork in real life and I've just never felt crafting in games was done in any way to represent actual crafts.

    Even in Age of Wushu where you can paint, it's just a simple puzzle that moves around tiles. It could have been a blank paper in which you would draw with your mouse and would have to register how closely you match the original piece and based on that determine the quality of the painting you create. At least that would be meaningful to me.

    But if this is a discussion about economies, then meh either way.

  • DirkinDirkin Manassas, VAPosts: 78Member
    Originally posted by 5Luck
    Originally posted by Maurgrim
    Vanguard have a robust crafting minigame onpar with SWG you should check it out.

    IMO Vanguard is the game that ruined crafting. It was one of the 1st(that i played) that offered class "spheres" meaning yes you could not craft everything but your crafter was also a combatant. That is what changed things.

    If you want a crafting economy there is no way around it. You need to have a crafting class. Not a mage with silk weaving but a choice between either a mage or a silk weaver.

    Now I wont completly say vanguard was a bad crafting game. It wasnt. The crafting was fun and you ended up with rare-ish items through the system but again what it did do was remove the crafter as a 1st class and made it 2ndary.

     

    Vanguard didn't make anything secondary, only separate. The different spheres are just independent of each other. I know plenty of characters that are max level crafters but have not done adventuring for more than a few hours. Of course you can level both up if you so choose as well, along with Diplomacy.

  • SpottyGekkoSpottyGekko RotterdamPosts: 3,845Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Gallaid
    Originally posted by zaxxon23
    Originally posted by Theocritus
    ...It became much easier just to run a dungeon than to put in several weeks/months maxxing a crafter......I still think the way it should work is get the best drops from raids, but have the ability for a crafter to improve the gear even more....That way you get the best of both worlds.

    I like your thinking.  You could also add a smaller portion of itemization slots available only through crafting.  That way the raiders can get their armor, weapons, and money from raiding; and use that money to buy the crafted itemization they want.

     

    MMOs can have a huge economy for crafters running just off a couple needed items slots, item enhancements, and lots of non-gear itemization.  For example housing, city building, pvp armaments, harvesters or mining operations, etc.

     

    I know I'm biased due to my like of crafting, but I really believe there's a lot of modern mmos that could have become a hit had they simply added a reasonable amount of sandbox and crafting to their games.  Crafting gets more players and gives your raiders added variety for downtime. 

    The thing is to have a good crafting system the game has to have a good PvP backbone. Take eve for instance pretty much the only thing in the game is PvP. Yes there are PvE opps but most corps have some sort of PvP. Crafting will not work if people can go into a raid over and over again to get the best gear. The best gear should be craft able maybe to keep rarity maybe there is a certain Item that drops on a raid. If an fighting hero can go around and kill everything why cant crafters create name worthy weapons. Improving gear will not completely satisfy a crafter. Crafters like to make objects used by someone every day.

    I believe the small things do matter also. In UO having a castle totally pimped out. The decorations were made by a crafter. Also I remember going to a tailor in (SWG) and being fitted (trying on clothes and seeing if i like them). Or even hiring a home decorator to come in and decorate my house. This was one of the best parts about playing. Yes it was fun to have PvE missions and even PvP attacks but the best parts were the small things. These days I have found that the non-combat small things are lacking. 

    If there is a semi-open economy then it will run it self. EvE  is a great example. they try to have a hands off approach to the game as much as possible. CCP even hired an economist to analyze what will happen with new patches and such.

    No ! No ! No !

     

    It's a very popular but totally false belief that there's ANY required relationship between "good crafting" and PVP.

     

    Some examples:

    • "A Tale In The Desert" had the best crafting and gathering mini-games I have ever seen in an MMO. It had no combat of any kind.
    • SWG had the most complicated gathering, crafting, manufacturing and selling in any MMO ever made, yet PVP was very limited, entirely optional and ignored by the majority of the players. Decay removed items keeping the economy moving.
    • Fallen Earth and Vanguard both have good crafting systems, neither of those games have PVP-driven economies.
    • FFXIV:ARR has a very enjoyable crafting mechanic, even though the gathering is not exciting, and the crafted items are entirely optional. If you never used a crafted item, it wouldn't hinder you in any way.

     

    Yes, if you want a "naturally driven" economy where there's constant demand for all crafted goods, then the rapid turnover caused by constant destructive warfare is an ideal mechanism. EVE is a case in point. It has a fantastic economy, but the actual crafting is abysmal. The fun part is the logistics and marketing.

     

    I spend most of my time in FFXIV gathering or crafting, because I just love crafting.

    In SWG, I spent ALL my time gathering and crafting, because I just love crafting. But in SWG my products were some of the best on the server and I derived a great deal of satisfaction from the recognition that I earned for my work.  

  • VengerVenger York, PAPosts: 1,318Member
    Originally posted by Gallaid
     

    The thing is to have a good crafting system the game has to have a good PvP backbone. 

    Do not agree at all.  A good decay system is the only thing a good crafting system would need.

  • FinalFikusFinalFikus Chicago, ILPosts: 906Member
    Originally posted by Venger
    Originally posted by Gallaid
     

    The thing is to have a good crafting system the game has to have a good PvP backbone. 

    Do not agree at all.  A good decay system is the only thing a good crafting system would need.

    Yes, and a crafting economy of some kind.

    The thing is, it's not the pvp player who cries about crafting. PVE attracts too many people who will complain about crafting and the economy and pvp and decay.

    Until the pve players stop selling out all their fellow gamers the first chance they get for convenience and loot, Im not sure if crafters will play with them for long, if they were ever allowed the opportunity at all.

    "If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"

  • FinalFikusFinalFikus Chicago, ILPosts: 906Member
    Originally posted by SpottyGekko
    Originally posted by Gallaid
    Originally posted by zaxxon23
    Originally posted by Theocritus
    ...It became much easier just to run a dungeon than to put in several weeks/months maxxing a crafter......I still think the way it should work is get the best drops from raids, but have the ability for a crafter to improve the gear even more....That way you get the best of both worlds.

    I like your thinking.  You could also add a smaller portion of itemization slots available only through crafting.  That way the raiders can get their armor, weapons, and money from raiding; and use that money to buy the crafted itemization they want.

     

    MMOs can have a huge economy for crafters running just off a couple needed items slots, item enhancements, and lots of non-gear itemization.  For example housing, city building, pvp armaments, harvesters or mining operations, etc.

     

    I know I'm biased due to my like of crafting, but I really believe there's a lot of modern mmos that could have become a hit had they simply added a reasonable amount of sandbox and crafting to their games.  Crafting gets more players and gives your raiders added variety for downtime. 

    The thing is to have a good crafting system the game has to have a good PvP backbone. Take eve for instance pretty much the only thing in the game is PvP. Yes there are PvE opps but most corps have some sort of PvP. Crafting will not work if people can go into a raid over and over again to get the best gear. The best gear should be craft able maybe to keep rarity maybe there is a certain Item that drops on a raid. If an fighting hero can go around and kill everything why cant crafters create name worthy weapons. Improving gear will not completely satisfy a crafter. Crafters like to make objects used by someone every day.

    I believe the small things do matter also. In UO having a castle totally pimped out. The decorations were made by a crafter. Also I remember going to a tailor in (SWG) and being fitted (trying on clothes and seeing if i like them). Or even hiring a home decorator to come in and decorate my house. This was one of the best parts about playing. Yes it was fun to have PvE missions and even PvP attacks but the best parts were the small things. These days I have found that the non-combat small things are lacking. 

    If there is a semi-open economy then it will run it self. EvE  is a great example. they try to have a hands off approach to the game as much as possible. CCP even hired an economist to analyze what will happen with new patches and such.

    No ! No ! No !

     

    It's a very popular but totally false belief that there's ANY required relationship between "good crafting" and PVP.

     

    Some examples:

    • "A Tale In The Desert" had the best crafting and gathering mini-games I have ever seen in an MMO. It had no combat of any kind.
    • SWG had the most complicated gathering, crafting, manufacturing and selling in any MMO ever made, yet PVP was very limited, entirely optional and ignored by the majority of the players. Decay removed items keeping the economy moving.
    • Fallen Earth and Vanguard both have good crafting systems, neither of those games have PVP-driven economies.
    • FFXIV:ARR has a very enjoyable crafting mechanic, even though the gathering is not exciting, and the crafted items are entirely optional. If you never used a crafted item, it wouldn't hinder you in any way.

     

    Yes, if you want a "naturally driven" economy where there's constant demand for all crafted goods, then the rapid turnover caused by constant destructive warfare is an ideal mechanism. EVE is a case in point. It has a fantastic economy, but the actual crafting is abysmal. The fun part is the logistics and marketing.

     

    I spend most of my time in FFXIV gathering or crafting, because I just love crafting.

    In SWG, I spent ALL my time gathering and crafting, because I just love crafting. But in SWG my products were some of the best on the server and I derived a great deal of satisfaction from the recognition that I earned for my work.  

    In swg, PVP was a little more important than you remember for crafting.

    But it was a fantastic system.

    "If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"

  • PrecursorPrecursor Las Vegas, NVPosts: 150Member
    Originally posted by Rusque

    When people say "meaningful crafting" are they actually referring to crafting or are you guys talking about "crafting driven economies?"

     

    I ask because crafting has pretty much been lame in every game ever. It's usually just a button click, sometimes a mini-game that has little to do with that craft. I do leatherwork in real life and I've just never felt crafting in games was done in any way to represent actual crafts.

    Even in Age of Wushu where you can paint, it's just a simple puzzle that moves around tiles. It could have been a blank paper in which you would draw with your mouse and would have to register how closely you match the original piece and based on that determine the quality of the painting you create. At least that would be meaningful to me.

    But if this is a discussion about economies, then meh either way.

    I agree with the button clicky crafting. It's always been lackluster. Short of the whole digital creation thing ala second life I don't think there is much more that could be done in combat based games.

    Those who had the pleasure (and maybe displeasure) of playing Galaxies had it about a good as it will ever get and it still was still just a button clicker. The thing that made it great was the effort you had to put into the crafting to get to the part where you clicked away at the craft menu. Crafting driven economy was an understatment until the nge appeared and put a bullet in swg's head.

    People from either dorkfall or MO ( I can't remember which one) chittered way back when in early development about having a more meaningful craft system. As expected neither one appears to have done anything relevant with it.

    Most gamers are more concerned with pew-pew than creative thinking these days anyway. It's a blanket statement, I know. Hope I don't get flamed for it. =)

     

  • majimaji ColognePosts: 1,996Member Uncommon
    I like the Fallen Earth crafting system. You can craft so much stuff all the time, and nearly all equipment and stuff in the game is made by players.

    Let's play Fallen Earth (blind, 300 episodes)

    Let's play Guild Wars 2 (blind, 45 episodes)

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