I think console versions are not a good thing.... they keep developers from going for the full potential of graphics and controllers...
Consoles have to many limitations compared to an open system like a PC.
Advocating it a good thing shows that the writer clearly does not understand, the restrictions and limitations that keep todays games back from their full potential.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
Originally posted by Gruug I'll be there at launch (on PC) but will stay ONLY if the game is much much more like Skyrim then like WoW.
Given that Elder Scrolls games sell in the ten to twenty million copy range and MMORPGs aside from WoW sell in the one to two million copy range, I'm betting that the game being like Skyrim or other ES games is much more important than the game being like WoW or any other MMORPG.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
To capture the non-MMO players who were hooked on Skyrim, they're going to have to deliver on the Elder Scrolls experience. If the devs have successfully translated exploration, NPC interaction, crafting, enchanting, quests, character customization, and character advancement to the MMO world, then it will be successful in its goal to reach non-MMO players. Oh, and one more thing. They've got to make it accessible to casual play. Skyrim is a game that one can get into quickly...sit down for an hour and run a dungeon. Barriers to access will only turn off non-MMO players.
Originally posted by Gruug I'll be there at launch (on PC) but will stay ONLY if the game is much much more like Skyrim then like WoW.
Given that Elder Scrolls games sell in the ten to twenty million copy range and MMORPGs aside from WoW sell in the one to two million copy range, I'm betting that the game being like Skyrim or other ES games is much more important than the game being like WoW or any other MMORPG.
Yea EA/BW was betting on that with KOTR 3 I mean SWTOR
This game is just another one with restricted PVP. This game could have been AMAZING. All they had to do was take the idea of elder scrolls openness and make it fully open.
I want to be able to worry about being ganked on the open road. Not be super friendly happy time except in the PVP zone. That's stupid as fuck and is nothing like the open Elder Scrolls we all know and love.
Hand holding and restrictions are the way forward and it killed this game for me.
If this game ends up having role-based grouping there could be hope for it to not suck. We'll see I guess. I missed a chance to see for myself wasting time playing FFXIV, which is a mediocre at best overall game.
I would also argue that "Bringing In The Non-MMO Gamer" isn't really all that great for MMORPGs - it's what companies have been doing for years with all of the post WoW "failures" and IMO, the quality of MMORPGs in terms of overall game experience and definitely the long term value in playing MMORPGs has diminished greatly. Along with that, the quality of MMORPG player has declined dramatically.
Good MMORPGs aren't casual games, nor easy games, and the trend to try to dumb them down and make them accessible has pretty much ripped the heart and soul out of the genre. It's like, you can't really alter chess - it is what it is - and some people just can't handle it - you can't really change it or it becomes more like checkers, which isn't really the same.
I agree with all but the third paragraph. I realize there are hardcore, or very talented players, who do want games to be more difficult. But there are we casual players who enjoy a good MMO too. I don't enjoy the needed trio for groups because new gamers often don't know how to play those roles. If MMOs had continued to need the holy trinity, there wouldn't be such a gap.
Originally posted by Gruug I'll be there at launch (on PC) but will stay ONLY if the game is much much more like Skyrim then like WoW.
Given that Elder Scrolls games sell in the ten to twenty million copy range and MMORPGs aside from WoW sell in the one to two million copy range, I'm betting that the game being like Skyrim or other ES games is much more important than the game being like WoW or any other MMORPG.
Yea EA/BW was betting on that with KOTR 3 I mean SWTOR
To be fair though SWTOR had a record setting launch. Where they failed was post launch. They failed to follow through and get fixes out fast enough and they failed to make players feel like they were getting value for their 15 a month.
I have no doubt that EWO will do well as far as the launch is concerned. Whether or not they can keep those players will depend largely on how well they recreate the ES experience and how well they follow through their release with enough updates and new content to make the player feel as if it is worth their $15 a month. For people used to ES that is like new major DLC every month price wise so people who aren't use to MMORPGs and are fans of the ES series, that will be their expectation as far as content goes.
As far as PvP goes, it is niche. If ESO wanted to go the niche PvP route then they should have done it in a niche game with a realistic budget for that segment. It looks like they have pretty big expectations for ESO and the budget is likely pretty damn big too, that means it needs to sell to the masses. And that means that if they start ditching core ES features expected by fans of the series for PvP niche functionality it is going to hurt their bottom line.
I think it will pull in a fair amount of subs for the first three months at least on PC but I don't know about Consoles. I have a feeling that market will give a steady trickle of free month players for the first year but nothing huge like PC crowds from mmos. those guys are not going to stick around for a self renewing sub. Neither are the casual PC crowd who have a bunch of ftp stuff to plink away at after the free month expires.
It will also take a while to train up a new generation of gamers on the daoc inspired PvP frontier system. A large part of the cooperative pve mmo crowd is going to be taken aback by the large fully enabled center of the map with no way of opting out of pvp.
You're critcizing Bill when your article is the definition of Bias.
I agree that IP popularity helps in that it is only a "head-start" on the track, and whether or not the lead is maintained is up to how good the runner is.
You cannot make the claim that console support is automatically a downside if Skyrim and Oblivion were built for consoles and succeeded greatly.
There is mixed opinion on faction lock- some like it, some don't. The reasons given by Paul Sage on the Q&A on this very site made sense to me http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/userPosts/2525179. Maybe it will in fact create an interesting dynamic between factions and encourage factional pride. Also, if you're committed to your character's progression, you don't have to create an alt to see everything. It's called 50+ and 50++ content, and it allows exploration of the remaining faction territories once you can hit level cap.
ESO is not another SWTOR. SWTOR failed largely because of lack of endgame content. As far as I've seen, ESO has taken many steps to avoid this.
Lastly you Don't have a crystal ball as you suggest. You don't know how things will play out. And on top of that your horrendous article wishes failure upon ESO, before it's even released. As a result, I cannot see it as anything other than pure speculation and opinion.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity. I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
I enjoyed all the ES single player games I played (never played arena) but all had limited gameplay for me......The difficulty of a MMO is building it for the long haul, not as a short term gaming experience.....Basing it on the previous titles I just dont see much long term appeal but that may be wrong...We'll see.
Their main issue will be expansions to expansion, end game and alting/getting new skills.
Expansions will need more story, and new game mechanics. Sure they can bloat the game with more of the same mediocre content but addung something new ans then applying it to different parts of the game will add retention.
End game. Is it fun? Challenging? Not s gear grind and lots of content?
Alting. Creating more than one character. Different game outcomes? Deep character creation customization or barbar shop? Npc alignment depending on quests and exploration e.g. A vampire, werewolf or other npc factions etc. Also how are rewards of alting synergized to a common goal if long term rewards.
Write bad things that are done to you in sand, but write the good things that happen to you on a piece of marble
I would also argue that "Bringing In The Non-MMO Gamer" isn't really all that great for MMORPGs - it's what companies have been doing for years with all of the post WoW "failures" and IMO, the quality of MMORPGs in terms of overall game experience and definitely the long term value in playing MMORPGs has diminished greatly. Along with that, the quality of MMORPG player has declined dramatically.
Good MMORPGs aren't casual games, nor easy games, and the trend to try to dumb them down and make them accessible has pretty much ripped the heart and soul out of the genre. It's like, you can't really alter chess - it is what it is - and some people just can't handle it - you can't really change it or it becomes more like checkers, which isn't really the same.
I agree with this 100%.
Good MMORPGs are deep, complex and, well..hard. Something you devote time to.
I think its a good thing for any MMORPG to have elements that may be enticing to Non-MMO gamers to come and try the game, but when MMO Devs specifically target a player type outside the genre, it takes away alot of what makes a good MMORPG GOOD
Exactly
As production cost of MMOs increase, it is no longer enough to strictly cater to those oldworld players; they don't bring in enough income. They have no choice but to branch out and widen their customer base.
This game is just another one with restricted PVP. This game could have been AMAZING. All they had to do was take the idea of elder scrolls openness and make it fully open.
I want to be able to worry about being ganked on the open road. Not be super friendly happy time except in the PVP zone. That's stupid as fuck and is nothing like the open Elder Scrolls we all know and love.
Hand holding and restrictions are the way forward and it killed this game for me.
Ganking and grieving games are not very popular but there exist some against all odds and maybe you should try them. ESO won't be one of them though because financially it's kind of pointless to make an MMO for a few thousand likely customers.
This game is just another one with restricted PVP. This game could have been AMAZING. All they had to do was take the idea of elder scrolls openness and make it fully open.
I want to be able to worry about being ganked on the open road. Not be super friendly happy time except in the PVP zone. That's stupid as fuck and is nothing like the open Elder Scrolls we all know and love.
Hand holding and restrictions are the way forward and it killed this game for me.
Ganking and grieving games are not very popular but there exist some against all odds and maybe you should try them. ESO won't be one of them though because financially it's kind of pointless to make an MMO for a few thousand likely customers.
But in this case it also means resticted PvE ,like playing in WoW RP server without the horde or Alliance.
So its not for PvE players either.
So, did ESO have a successful launch? Yes, yes it did.By Ryan Getchell on April 02, 2014. **On the radar: http://www.cyberpunk.net/ **
This game is just another one with restricted PVP. This game could have been AMAZING. All they had to do was take the idea of elder scrolls openness and make it fully open.
I want to be able to worry about being ganked on the open road. Not be super friendly happy time except in the PVP zone. That's stupid as fuck and is nothing like the open Elder Scrolls we all know and love.
Hand holding and restrictions are the way forward and it killed this game for me.
Ganking and grieving games are not very popular but there exist some against all odds and maybe you should try them. ESO won't be one of them though because financially it's kind of pointless to make an MMO for a few thousand likely customers.
But in this case it also means resticted PvE ,like playing in WoW RP server without the horde or Alliance.
So its not for PvE players either.
Oh agreed, pvp/pve hybrids haven't worked yet doubt this will either if they try to mainline to both demographics. Closest I've ever seen that worked is a 90/10 split EVE 90 pvp/10pve LOTRO 90pve/10pvp
This game is just another one with restricted PVP. This game could have been AMAZING. All they had to do was take the idea of elder scrolls openness and make it fully open.
I want to be able to worry about being ganked on the open road. Not be super friendly happy time except in the PVP zone. That's stupid as fuck and is nothing like the open Elder Scrolls we all know and love.
Hand holding and restrictions are the way forward and it killed this game for me.
Ganking and grieving games are not very popular but there exist some against all odds and maybe you should try them. ESO won't be one of them though because financially it's kind of pointless to make an MMO for a few thousand likely customers.
But in this case it also means resticted PvE ,like playing in WoW RP server without the horde or Alliance.
So its not for PvE players either.
I'm not against PvP, and I'm gonna spend some time in Cyrodiil for sure. I just don't like OW and FFA PvP and communities it creates. Magic word is balance between PvE, PvP, solo and group content, crafting etc etc.
I'm highly dubious about the success of this game. I'm getting the impression that the main focus is "maximising the monetization potential of the IP", as opposed to building a good ES game.
By all accounts, the IP by itself will no doubt result in masses of box sales. But I believe the aftermath is going to be very ugly.
All Oblivion and Skyrim fans will be secretly hoping that ESO will deliver the same experience as they had in those games, except in ESO the world will be filled with real people instead of scripted NPC's !
It's a very seductive concept, but any MMO vet will tell you that those "real people" will irrevocably change the game play experience.
No longer will you walk the streets of the towns and cities and overhear snatches of atmospheric NPC chat dialogue. Instead the world will be filled with shouts of: "LF1M mage for Devils Crypt - GS4500 or higher !!1!1!!" or "Cheap ESO golds ! Only $50 for 500, instant delivered guarantee !"
Just as you've finally managed to sneak within bow range of that stag, it bolts, because xXxDovakin DudexXx has come charging along bunny-hopping his armoured horse across the moors...
Comments
I think console versions are not a good thing.... they keep developers from going for the full potential of graphics and controllers...
Consoles have to many limitations compared to an open system like a PC.
Advocating it a good thing shows that the writer clearly does not understand, the restrictions and limitations that keep todays games back from their full potential.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
Given that Elder Scrolls games sell in the ten to twenty million copy range and MMORPGs aside from WoW sell in the one to two million copy range, I'm betting that the game being like Skyrim or other ES games is much more important than the game being like WoW or any other MMORPG.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Yea EA/BW was betting on that with KOTR 3 I mean SWTOR
This game is just another one with restricted PVP. This game could have been AMAZING. All they had to do was take the idea of elder scrolls openness and make it fully open.
I want to be able to worry about being ganked on the open road. Not be super friendly happy time except in the PVP zone. That's stupid as fuck and is nothing like the open Elder Scrolls we all know and love.
Hand holding and restrictions are the way forward and it killed this game for me.
Bill's column was so - out there - I had to write an article about it. Read it here.
Dear Bill Murphy - A rebuttal to his column: Bringing In The Non-MMO Gamer
I agree with all but the third paragraph. I realize there are hardcore, or very talented players, who do want games to be more difficult. But there are we casual players who enjoy a good MMO too. I don't enjoy the needed trio for groups because new gamers often don't know how to play those roles. If MMOs had continued to need the holy trinity, there wouldn't be such a gap.
To be fair though SWTOR had a record setting launch. Where they failed was post launch. They failed to follow through and get fixes out fast enough and they failed to make players feel like they were getting value for their 15 a month.
I have no doubt that EWO will do well as far as the launch is concerned. Whether or not they can keep those players will depend largely on how well they recreate the ES experience and how well they follow through their release with enough updates and new content to make the player feel as if it is worth their $15 a month. For people used to ES that is like new major DLC every month price wise so people who aren't use to MMORPGs and are fans of the ES series, that will be their expectation as far as content goes.
As far as PvP goes, it is niche. If ESO wanted to go the niche PvP route then they should have done it in a niche game with a realistic budget for that segment. It looks like they have pretty big expectations for ESO and the budget is likely pretty damn big too, that means it needs to sell to the masses. And that means that if they start ditching core ES features expected by fans of the series for PvP niche functionality it is going to hurt their bottom line.
I think it will pull in a fair amount of subs for the first three months at least on PC but I don't know about Consoles. I have a feeling that market will give a steady trickle of free month players for the first year but nothing huge like PC crowds from mmos. those guys are not going to stick around for a self renewing sub. Neither are the casual PC crowd who have a bunch of ftp stuff to plink away at after the free month expires.
It will also take a while to train up a new generation of gamers on the daoc inspired PvP frontier system. A large part of the cooperative pve mmo crowd is going to be taken aback by the large fully enabled center of the map with no way of opting out of pvp.
You're critcizing Bill when your article is the definition of Bias.
Bringer of Eternal Darkness and Despair, but also a Nutritious way to start your Morning.
Games Played: Too Many
Thanks for article Bill.
I hope this statement is not true:
They're definitely aiming at the MMO gamer, but chances are they're hoping a fair few of their existing Skyrim-based audience hopes into ESO as well.
Else they will surely lose me as a customer. I need this to be a great Elder Scrolls game first.
' What about you? Do you think I'm riding the crazy train '
All the way to crazy town my friend
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
lol where have I heard that before? thanks for the chuckle
Expansions will need more story, and new game mechanics. Sure they can bloat the game with more of the same mediocre content but addung something new ans then applying it to different parts of the game will add retention.
End game. Is it fun? Challenging? Not s gear grind and lots of content?
Alting. Creating more than one character. Different game outcomes? Deep character creation customization or barbar shop? Npc alignment depending on quests and exploration e.g. A vampire, werewolf or other npc factions etc. Also how are rewards of alting synergized to a common goal if long term rewards.
Write bad things that are done to you in sand, but write the good things that happen to you on a piece of marble
As production cost of MMOs increase, it is no longer enough to strictly cater to those oldworld players; they don't bring in enough income. They have no choice but to branch out and widen their customer base.
Ganking and grieving games are not very popular but there exist some against all odds and maybe you should try them. ESO won't be one of them though because financially it's kind of pointless to make an MMO for a few thousand likely customers.
But in this case it also means resticted PvE ,like playing in WoW RP server without the horde or Alliance.
So its not for PvE players either.
So, did ESO have a successful launch? Yes, yes it did.By Ryan Getchell on April 02, 2014.
**On the radar: http://www.cyberpunk.net/ **
It's a dream come true!!!
Long have I waited to PAY in order to play with Console players!
HAHAHAHAHAHHAHA
Oh agreed, pvp/pve hybrids haven't worked yet doubt this will either if they try to mainline to both demographics. Closest I've ever seen that worked is a 90/10 split EVE 90 pvp/10pve LOTRO 90pve/10pvp
I'm not against PvP, and I'm gonna spend some time in Cyrodiil for sure. I just don't like OW and FFA PvP and communities it creates. Magic word is balance between PvE, PvP, solo and group content, crafting etc etc.
I'm highly dubious about the success of this game. I'm getting the impression that the main focus is "maximising the monetization potential of the IP", as opposed to building a good ES game.
By all accounts, the IP by itself will no doubt result in masses of box sales. But I believe the aftermath is going to be very ugly.
All Oblivion and Skyrim fans will be secretly hoping that ESO will deliver the same experience as they had in those games, except in ESO the world will be filled with real people instead of scripted NPC's !
It's a very seductive concept, but any MMO vet will tell you that those "real people" will irrevocably change the game play experience.
No longer will you walk the streets of the towns and cities and overhear snatches of atmospheric NPC chat dialogue. Instead the world will be filled with shouts of: "LF1M mage for Devils Crypt - GS4500 or higher !!1!1!!" or "Cheap ESO golds ! Only $50 for 500, instant delivered guarantee !"
Just as you've finally managed to sneak within bow range of that stag, it bolts, because xXxDovakin DudexXx has come charging along bunny-hopping his armoured horse across the moors...