Originally posted by Darth-Batman Because Darkfall is a shining example of a success story? All those open-world-pvp-full-loot games have something in common, they all struggle.
Note he said "A better Darkfall". But yes, Darkfall is a pretty great success story. As is Eve.
People seem to have this delusion that Darkfall is doing poorly.
A group of 12 devs on a 1 million dollar budget released an MMO that is technologically superior to many on the market, handling real time combat in a non zoned non instanced world with hundreds of players.
Fast forward 3 years later and the team has grown to 30 devs, moved into a larger office building, opened a second server, released its third expansion.
Fast forward to present day, team is up to 60 full time devs, move to yet a bigger office, released a sequel/massive overhaul to the game, have boxes in stores, about to release to a whole new sector of the globe. And its still a sub based game.
Darkfall isn't a success story? Compared to what? Compared to games like SWTOR where the dev team gets cut by 4/5 after launch, where company stocks drop, where the founders ditch the company, where the game is forced to go FTP? Compared to Rift, the most successful modern themepark (WoW clone) where it has merged servers and fired devs over the last two years?
If you're going to judge every game on its own scale of 'success', then Rift, LOTRO, DDO, SWTOR, and many others have seen FAR greater success than Darkfall, even after their initial populations shrank.
Compare it all to Eve, a game STILL GROWING in population over 11 years later, now the most subscribed to MMO outside of WoW.
*picks up the phone*
Oh, sorry. I'm calling bullshit on the second half of that sentence.
This claim is absolutely ridiculous & has no basis in fact, even before you take into account that a good chunk of EVE's accounts are in fact alt accounts, since until recently only one character per account could be trained. To say nothing of the mining bots (which have greatly diminished, admittedly).
I like the game myself, but pulling bogus 'facts' out of your ass to support it ultimately does nothing but cause it harm.
Originally posted by Darth-Batman Because Darkfall is a shining example of a success story? All those open-world-pvp-full-loot games have something in common, they all struggle.
Note he said "A better Darkfall". But yes, Darkfall is a pretty great success story. As is Eve.
People seem to have this delusion that Darkfall is doing poorly.
A group of 12 devs on a 1 million dollar budget released an MMO that is technologically superior to many on the market, handling real time combat in a non zoned non instanced world with hundreds of players.
Fast forward 3 years later and the team has grown to 30 devs, moved into a larger office building, opened a second server, released its third expansion.
Fast forward to present day, team is up to 60 full time devs, move to yet a bigger office, released a sequel/massive overhaul to the game, have boxes in stores, about to release to a whole new sector of the globe. And its still a sub based game.
Darkfall isn't a success story? Compared to what? Compared to games like SWTOR where the dev team gets cut by 4/5 after launch, where company stocks drop, where the founders ditch the company, where the game is forced to go FTP? Compared to Rift, the most successful modern themepark (WoW clone) where it has merged servers and fired devs over the last two years?
If you're going to judge every game on its own scale of 'success', then Rift, LOTRO, DDO, SWTOR, and many others have seen FAR greater success than Darkfall, even after their initial populations shrank.
All MMOs are judged on scale. If we use the individual scale, Rift, LotRO, DDO, and SWTOR were not runnaway successes. Actually, games like DDO and SWTOR are unmitigated disasters. No one even bothers to argue that SWTOR is in any way successful.
Compare it all to Eve, a game STILL GROWING in population over 11 years later, now the most subscribed to MMO outside of WoW.
*picks up the phone*
Oh, sorry. I'm calling bullshit on the second half of that sentence.
This claim is absolutely ridiculous & has no basis in fact
Except, you know, the official subscription numbers released by CCP. Unlike most companies, they don't hide those numbers. And after they went by 500k subs, they have passed every sub based MMO except for WoW.
I'm not sure why anyone would think that pvp didn't drive away customers in UO. Look at the history of the game and see how they kept punishing pvp with changes to the game to the point where stat loss was introduced and pvp was for the most part dead except for the very hardcore. The problem is by this time when they got it under control everyone had left for EQ.
Originally posted by flizzer You can have this as long as I get a completely PvE server. If the only way I can experience this game is with the PvP gank crowd, then I would pass.
Originally posted by flizzer You can have this as long as I get a completely PvE server. If the only way I can experience this game is with the PvP gank crowd, then I would pass.
+1
+1 to Infinity
How about we all stop acting like children and realize that there is a way to have open PvP without their being open gank squads "ruining" the game? Thats just as bad as people who say MMOs with no PvP are useless. At least PvP MMO gamers usually know what they're talking about, but the PvE crowd always seems to speak from total ignorance.
Originally posted by Darkholme Originally posted by Komandor - "It was fail. Trammel pretty much killed UO. This is common knowledge. Worst move in gaming history." This is a patently false statement. The subscriber-ship of Ultima Online skyrocketed with the release of Renaissance, and it kept on growing up until the release of Age of Shadows well and truly killed off Ultima Online, completing the WOW-ification of the game. That is when the game started to decline in subscriber population that continues to this day.I was just thinking about this whole debate the other day and how people that were actually there remember how it really went down. Yes the game might have been ruined for those that love to gank and grief, but the reality is that you are NOT the majority of Ultima fans, or MMORPG fans and a game with FFA PVP, stealing and corpse looting will NEVER find mainstream success... ever. Is there a niche for it? Certainly, and there are games that fill it. Full disclosure, I actually was a thief on Atlantic server back in the day and did faction PvP, and enjoyed both immensely, and I maintained a character on Siege Perilous when it was opened. I do enjoy the playstyle (aside from ganking and griefing).
Agree to the fullest.
Age of Shadows that WoW-ified UO was the final nail for so many players. That was what killed UO felucca and made about half the subscribers leave the game.
Felucca was very populated all the way up to february 2003 when UO went WoW. Some claim that trammel killed felucca but that is very far from the truth. I was there and saw felucca players leave in hordes after Age of Shadows was introduced.
So posts like this one, from 2002 were insane ravings?
Trammel is full, Felucca is empty… How do we bring balance to the two facets while at the same time keeping the Trammies happy? (happy trammies == happy OSI).
Yes definetly.
Felucca Europe had just as many PvP players as before trammel, and the game was way better. Balanced PvP is something PvP players like and Renaissance had just that.
Originally posted by lizardbones So posts like this one, from 2002 were insane ravings? How to bring back Felucca?
From Game-Master.NetHere is my question for you: Trammel is full, Felucca is empty… How do we bring balance to the two facets while at the same time keeping the Trammies happy? (happy trammies == happy OSI).
Just because Felucca was emptying doesn't mean the game was dying... it just means exactly what I said. People didn't enjoy being ganked and griefed constantly so they migrated to Trammel when Renaissance launched and never went back in the same numbers. That does not correlate with the game losing subscribers however, and in fact if you look at the numbers, the opposite happened. No amount of attempts at revisionist gaming history is ever going to change that.
Are you responding to me? I was showing historical evidence that Felucca emptied out as soon as the players had someplace else to go. As you said, this was because they were tired of the PvP. There's also historical evidence that UO pulled in another 100k players or so after the release of Trammel so Trammel didn't "kill UO". Trammel just killed Felucca. Which is kind of ironic.
Evidence LOL. Did you even play UO during Renaissance?
I played from UO beta and i played Europe through Renaissance and it had just as much PvP players as before trammel, difference was that it had balanced quality PvP.
Trammel didnt kill felucca, Age of Shadows killed felucca. Any little text you find on the net dont counter my UO experience.
The only thing that could really attract the hardcore crowd in this game is some good old, realistic PVP.
If they go the carebare way and limit player looting and stealing from other players, this game will flop.
They basically need to make a better Darkfall.
Your way or the highway right? Why aren't all you hardcore players playing Eve? I get a kick out of these kind of post. Game companies want to make money. Your type of game fails at that. But you do have Eve. Although Eve been around for more than 10 years and has never broke 500k subs. Be thankful that CCP is a small company and its one game is still around. I do wish someone would have the guts to make the game you guys want. Then we would see less post like this or maybe not. You guys seem to get bored of the game after 2 or 3 months and start posting again.
Have you ever played Eve PvP? It's more then worthless. Just cause a game have PvP dont mean it automatically draw all PvP players to that game.
Originally posted by Zeppelin4 I'm not sure why anyone would think that pvp didn't drive away customers in UO. Look at the history of the game and see how they kept punishing pvp with changes to the game to the point where stat loss was introduced and pvp was for the most part dead except for the very hardcore. The problem is by this time when they got it under control everyone had left for EQ.
I see you have no clue whatsoever what happened to UO.
Age of Shadows was introduced feb 2003 and it made UO to a WoW game. Just about all felucca players stopped playing and that can seen on the subscriber numbers that went downhill from AoS.
I was there and saw myself what happened.
Making the best ever PvP game to a WoW copy was what really removed subscribers from the game.
Originally posted by flizzer You can have this as long as I get a completely PvE server. If the only way I can experience this game is with the PvP gank crowd, then I would pass.
+1
+1 to Infinity
How about we all stop acting like children and realize that there is a way to have open PvP without their being open gank squads "ruining" the game? Thats just as bad as people who say MMOs with no PvP are useless. At least PvP MMO gamers usually know what they're talking about, but the PvE crowd always seems to speak from total ignorance.
Why force your view on someone else? Some people just don't like the idea at all regardless of justification.
There will always be people who don't like a game with any element of pvp regardless of reason, just like there will always be people who don't like games with pve servers.
Originally posted by flizzer You can have this as long as I get a completely PvE server. If the only way I can experience this game is with the PvP gank crowd, then I would pass.
+1
+1 to Infinity
How about we all stop acting like children and realize that there is a way to have open PvP without their being open gank squads "ruining" the game? Thats just as bad as people who say MMOs with no PvP are useless. At least PvP MMO gamers usually know what they're talking about, but the PvE crowd always seems to speak from total ignorance.
It's already to late for SotA. Read up on the game and you can see how the PvE players are doing their best to get a lame version of PvP to suit their carebear playstyle.
No risk vs reward and no consequences is the PvE crowds melody. Slow unskilled PvP so the not so expereinced ones have a chance is also popular. Luck should be a big factor.
SotA is like all potentially good PvP games, the PvE crowd destroy it with their demands. They want PvP to fit their playstyle.
Originally posted by flizzer You can have this as long as I get a completely PvE server. If the only way I can experience this game is with the PvP gank crowd, then I would pass.
+1
+1 to Infinity
How about we all stop acting like children and realize that there is a way to have open PvP without their being open gank squads "ruining" the game? Thats just as bad as people who say MMOs with no PvP are useless. At least PvP MMO gamers usually know what they're talking about, but the PvE crowd always seems to speak from total ignorance.
Why force your view on someone else? Some people just don't like the idea at all regardless of justification.
There will always be people who don't like a game with any element of pvp regardless of reason, just like there will always be people who don't like games with pve servers.
Let them be. Freedom of choice.
What wrong with your reasoning is that the PvE crowd want SotA PvP to fit them and not the PvP crowd. So PvP players will leave andseek a game that isnt infected by PvE players demands.
They have their open PvE and still they want to destroy what the PvP crowd was hoping for.
Originally posted by flizzer You can have this as long as I get a completely PvE server. If the only way I can experience this game is with the PvP gank crowd, then I would pass.
+1
+1 to Infinity
How about we all stop acting like children and realize that there is a way to have open PvP without their being open gank squads "ruining" the game? Thats just as bad as people who say MMOs with no PvP are useless. At least PvP MMO gamers usually know what they're talking about, but the PvE crowd always seems to speak from total ignorance.
Why force your view on someone else? Some people just don't like the idea at all regardless of justification.
There will always be people who don't like a game with any element of pvp regardless of reason, just like there will always be people who don't like games with pve servers.
Let them be. Freedom of choice.
What wrong with your reasoning is that the PvE crowd want SotA PvP to fit them and not the PvP crowd. So PvP players will leave andseek a game that isnt infected by PvE players demands.
They have their open PvE and still they want to destroy what the PvP crowd was hoping for.
I think that's more to do with whether the developer is willing to stick to their guns or not, not so much the playerbase.
If the develop chooses money or inclusionism over their original/intented vision I don't think there is anything any of us can do - and if they choose money first over fun it won't ended up being a good game anyways, regardless of how good the source material is (swtor or Neverwinter anyone?)
Originally posted by flizzer You can have this as long as I get a completely PvE server. If the only way I can experience this game is with the PvP gank crowd, then I would pass.
+1
+1 to Infinity
How about we all stop acting like children and realize that there is a way to have open PvP without their being open gank squads "ruining" the game? Thats just as bad as people who say MMOs with no PvP are useless. At least PvP MMO gamers usually know what they're talking about, but the PvE crowd always seems to speak from total ignorance.
Why force your view on someone else?
You realize that's exactly what you're doing, right?
Originally posted by flizzer You can have this as long as I get a completely PvE server. If the only way I can experience this game is with the PvP gank crowd, then I would pass.
+1
+1 to Infinity
How about we all stop acting like children and realize that there is a way to have open PvP without their being open gank squads "ruining" the game? Thats just as bad as people who say MMOs with no PvP are useless. At least PvP MMO gamers usually know what they're talking about, but the PvE crowd always seems to speak from total ignorance.
Why force your view on someone else?
You realize that's exactly what you're doing, right?
???
I am a pvper buddy... I plays Planetside 2, played APB, Darkfall, WAR, etc etc...
I am just saying why bother arguing with people whose opinion are dead-set against pvp?
You didn't really read what I said, didn't you? Calm down... you don't have to argue with everyone lol... fighting everyone (especially people who are on the same side as you) only pushes people away from your side.
Originally posted by Aragon100 Originally posted by Zeppelin4I'm not sure why anyone would think that pvp didn't drive away customers in UO. Look at the history of the game and see how they kept punishing pvp with changes to the game to the point where stat loss was introduced and pvp was for the most part dead except for the very hardcore. The problem is by this time when they got it under control everyone had left for EQ.
I see you have no clue whatsoever what happened to UO.
Age of Shadows was introduced feb 2003 and it made UO to a WoW game. Just about all felucca players stopped playing and that can seen on the subscriber numbers that went downhill from AoS.
I was there and saw myself what happened.
Making the best ever PvP game to a WoW copy was what really removed subscribers from the game.
Apparently you have no idea of the history of the game you profess to know so much about.
Originally posted by flizzer You can have this as long as I get a completely PvE server. If the only way I can experience this game is with the PvP gank crowd, then I would pass.
+1
+1 to Infinity
How about we all stop acting like children and realize that there is a way to have open PvP without their being open gank squads "ruining" the game? Thats just as bad as people who say MMOs with no PvP are useless. At least PvP MMO gamers usually know what they're talking about, but the PvE crowd always seems to speak from total ignorance.
It's already to late for SotA. Read up on the game and you can see how the PvE players are doing their best to get a lame version of PvP to suit their carebear playstyle.
No risk vs reward and no consequences is the PvE crowds melody. Slow unskilled PvP so the not so expereinced ones have a chance is also popular. Luck should be a big factor.
SotA is like all potentially good PvP games, the PvE crowd destroy it with their demands. They want PvP to fit their playstyle.
I'm not sure how you could be more incorrect, maybe you are writing a piece of fiction for this forum?
PvE players and PvP players will never see each other. The magicpvpsliderbarthingy(TM) sees to that. There is also risk vs reward already established, there will be things you simply can't get without taking chances both PvE and PvP and it will also encourage PvE players to try PvP.
If it is going to be done well or not, remains to be seen but the FACT is it will be done.
Originally posted by flizzer You can have this as long as I get a completely PvE server. If the only way I can experience this game is with the PvP gank crowd, then I would pass.
+1
+1 to Infinity
How about we all stop acting like children and realize that there is a way to have open PvP without their being open gank squads "ruining" the game? Thats just as bad as people who say MMOs with no PvP are useless. At least PvP MMO gamers usually know what they're talking about, but the PvE crowd always seems to speak from total ignorance.
It's already to late for SotA. Read up on the game and you can see how the PvE players are doing their best to get a lame version of PvP to suit their carebear playstyle.
No risk vs reward and no consequences is the PvE crowds melody. Slow unskilled PvP so the not so expereinced ones have a chance is also popular. Luck should be a big factor.
SotA is like all potentially good PvP games, the PvE crowd destroy it with their demands. They want PvP to fit their playstyle.
I'm not sure how you could be more incorrect, maybe you are writing a piece of fiction for this forum?
PvE players and PvP players will never see each other. The magicpvpsliderbarthingy(TM) sees to that. There is also risk vs reward already established, there will be things you simply can't get without taking chances both PvE and PvP and it will also encourage PvE players to try PvP.
If it is going to be done well or not, remains to be seen but the FACT is it will be done.
Are you banned from the SotA forum?
In every PvP thread there is PvE players dictating how SotA PvP should turn out and it is a PvP game without risk vs reward and no consequences.
Example of PvE players standpoint on SotA PvP -
Balance PvP from a gear/level/skill/class point of view to the extent that people feel that they have a chance - mean lower the requirement of player skills in SotA so the newbies have a chance.
Lower the penalties for failure. You won’t win any casuals talking about “full loot" - which means remove risk vs reward from the game and there should be no consequences of sucking at PvP and no reward for being the better player.
PvE players demanding this and that to accept open PvP have destroyed so many potentially good PvP games and SotA seem to be the next in line. PvE players is a cancer for PvP.
Originally posted by flizzer You can have this as long as I get a completely PvE server. If the only way I can experience this game is with the PvP gank crowd, then I would pass.
+1
+1 to Infinity
How about we all stop acting like children and realize that there is a way to have open PvP without their being open gank squads "ruining" the game? Thats just as bad as people who say MMOs with no PvP are useless. At least PvP MMO gamers usually know what they're talking about, but the PvE crowd always seems to speak from total ignorance.
Why force your view on someone else? Some people just don't like the idea at all regardless of justification.
There will always be people who don't like a game with any element of pvp regardless of reason, just like there will always be people who don't like games with pve servers.
Let them be. Freedom of choice.
What wrong with your reasoning is that the PvE crowd want SotA PvP to fit them and not the PvP crowd. So PvP players will leave andseek a game that isnt infected by PvE players demands.
They have their open PvE and still they want to destroy what the PvP crowd was hoping for.
I think that's more to do with whether the developer is willing to stick to their guns or not, not so much the playerbase.
If the develop chooses money or inclusionism over their original/intented vision I don't think there is anything any of us can do - and if they choose money first over fun it won't ended up being a good game anyways, regardless of how good the source material is (swtor or Neverwinter anyone?)
It is both. I believe they adapt the SotA PvP game to please the PvE crowd.
Originally posted by Zeppelin4I'm not sure why anyone would think that pvp didn't drive away customers in UO. Look at the history of the game and see how they kept punishing pvp with changes to the game to the point where stat loss was introduced and pvp was for the most part dead except for the very hardcore. The problem is by this time when they got it under control everyone had left for EQ.
I see you have no clue whatsoever what happened to UO.
Age of Shadows was introduced feb 2003 and it made UO to a WoW game. Just about all felucca players stopped playing and that can seen on the subscriber numbers that went downhill from AoS.
I was there and saw myself what happened.
Making the best ever PvP game to a WoW copy was what really removed subscribers from the game.
Apparently you have no idea of the history of the game you profess to know so much about.
Finally there's just the logic of the world doubling in size having an impact on the player population on both continents.
I have no explanation for your personal experiences, other than reality doesn't agree with you.
Having own experience say alot more then quoting players that might be totally unaware of the total number of subscribers and the numbers that play felucca and the number that play trammel. What shard you played on might also differ alot. Drachenfelds for example had lower population then Europe.
My reference is playing from beta to april 2003. I knew all PvP players on Europe shard.
Those players continued to play on felucca after trammel and they left the game after Age of Shadows february 2003. So when it comes to my shard i am right, how it was on other shards might have been a different matter.
UO becoming just another WoW game was what removed all those subscribers in felucca from the game. This is something most people arent aware of. Changing a superb PvP game into WoW wasnt that smart move EA thought it should be.
Here you can see the number of subscribers in UO over time -
Here you can see for yourself that my point of view fit right in with the numbers of subscribers, your view isnt accurate at all. Age of Shadows was the gamebreaker for PvP players and that isnt strange at all since the game became a carebear one with insurance and itemization.
And ask yourself this - why should the PvP players leave the better PvP game UO became after trammel was introduced? I am talking about UO Renaissance that was way, way better then pretrammel PvP. That just not make sence.
UO becaming WoW with Age of Shadows on the other hand left felucca a deserted area. I seem to have more experience then you from UO and my logic is superior yours.
Originally posted by flizzer You can have this as long as I get a completely PvE server. If the only way I can experience this game is with the PvP gank crowd, then I would pass.
+1
+1 to Infinity
How about we all stop acting like children and realize that there is a way to have open PvP without their being open gank squads "ruining" the game? Thats just as bad as people who say MMOs with no PvP are useless. At least PvP MMO gamers usually know what they're talking about, but the PvE crowd always seems to speak from total ignorance.
It's already to late for SotA. Read up on the game and you can see how the PvE players are doing their best to get a lame version of PvP to suit their carebear playstyle.
No risk vs reward and no consequences is the PvE crowds melody. Slow unskilled PvP so the not so expereinced ones have a chance is also popular. Luck should be a big factor.
SotA is like all potentially good PvP games, the PvE crowd destroy it with their demands. They want PvP to fit their playstyle.
I'm not sure how you could be more incorrect, maybe you are writing a piece of fiction for this forum?
PvE players and PvP players will never see each other. The magicpvpsliderbarthingy(TM) sees to that. There is also risk vs reward already established, there will be things you simply can't get without taking chances both PvE and PvP and it will also encourage PvE players to try PvP.
If it is going to be done well or not, remains to be seen but the FACT is it will be done.
Are you banned from the SotA forum?
In every PvP thread there is PvE players dictating how SotA PvP should turn out and it is a PvP game without risk vs reward and no consequences.
Example of PvE players standpoint on SotA PvP -
Balance PvP from a gear/level/skill/class point of view to the extent that people feel that they have a chance - mean lower the requirement of player skills in SotA so the newbies have a chance.
Lower the penalties for failure. You won’t win any casuals talking about “full loot" - which means remove risk vs reward from the game and there should be no consequences of sucking at PvP and no reward for being the better player.
PvE players demanding this and that to accept open PvP have destroyed so many potentially good PvP games and SotA seem to be the next in line. PvE players is a cancer for PvP.
The account InsaneMembrane is banned from the SotA forums, yes. They didn't like my comments on their BS housing "interview" over at Paradox and didn't like me calling out some of the tossers over there.
If you think you'll get a civil discussion when it comes to PvP in any forum, keep thinking. There are as many Full Loot idiots there are there are carebears and they just press each other's buttons, then you've got the real losers in the middle: Anti-PKs.
From what I can tell in the dev chats, there will be a pretty close playstyle which allows PK, PvP, Full Loot, the problem that the PKs have is that they want to knock off nubs without challenge. I do so enjoy that myself, but I'll adapt. And on the other side of the coin you have the carebears who seem to think that if there is any PvP at all, it will destroy their game even though they won't be required to take part in it.
It really is just all posturing atm in any case, there is no god damn combat engine or magicpvpsliderbarthingy, or magichandshakesliderbarthingy, or game. One needs to wait, I only have a problem with all the nubs here just tossing out their useless opinions on a game which is yet to take shape.
Originally posted by Zeppelin4I'm not sure why anyone would think that pvp didn't drive away customers in UO. Look at the history of the game and see how they kept punishing pvp with changes to the game to the point where stat loss was introduced and pvp was for the most part dead except for the very hardcore. The problem is by this time when they got it under control everyone had left for EQ.
I see you have no clue whatsoever what happened to UO.
Age of Shadows was introduced feb 2003 and it made UO to a WoW game. Just about all felucca players stopped playing and that can seen on the subscriber numbers that went downhill from AoS.
I was there and saw myself what happened.
Making the best ever PvP game to a WoW copy was what really removed subscribers from the game.
Apparently you have no idea of the history of the game you profess to know so much about.
Finally there's just the logic of the world doubling in size having an impact on the player population on both continents.
I have no explanation for your personal experiences, other than reality doesn't agree with you.
Having own experience say alot more then quoting players that might be totally unaware of the total number of subscribers and the numbers that play felucca and the number that play trammel. What shard you played on might also differ alot. Drachenfelds for example had lower population then Europe.
My reference is playing from beta to april 2003. I knew all PvP players on Europe shard.
Those players continued to play on felucca after trammel and they left the game after Age of Shadows february 2003. So when it comes to my shard i am right, how it was on other shards might have been a different matter.
UO becoming just another WoW game was what removed all those subscribers in felucca from the game. This is something most people arent aware of. Changing a superb PvP game into WoW wasnt that smart move EA thought it should be.
Here you can see the number of subscribers in UO over time -
Here you can see for yourself that my point of view fit right in with the numbers of subscribers, your view isnt accurate at all. Age of Shadows was the gamebreaker for PvP players and that isnt strange at all since the game became a carebear one with insurance and itemization.
And ask yourself this - why should the PvP players leave the better PvP game UO became after trammel was introduced? I am talking about UO Renaissance that was way, way better then pretrammel PvP. That just not make sence.
UO becaming WoW with Age of Shadows on the other hand left felucca a deserted area. I seem to have more experience then you from UO and my logic is superior yours.
Have to ask, did you even play UO?
I'd say both you and Zep are correct. The PVPers drove out a lot of players early on, however the release of AoS (which shows a spike from box sales, because that's what EA does best) drove out the PVPers, primarily due to insurance, 'blessed' gear, and artifacts.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Originally posted by Aragon100 Originally posted by lizardbonesOriginally posted by Aragon100Originally posted by Zeppelin4I'm not sure why anyone would think that pvp didn't drive away customers in UO. Look at the history of the game and see how they kept punishing pvp with changes to the game to the point where stat loss was introduced and pvp was for the most part dead except for the very hardcore. The problem is by this time when they got it under control everyone had left for EQ.
I see you have no clue whatsoever what happened to UO.Age of Shadows was introduced feb 2003 and it made UO to a WoW game. Just about all felucca players stopped playing and that can seen on the subscriber numbers that went downhill from AoS.I was there and saw myself what happened.Making the best ever PvP game to a WoW copy was what really removed subscribers from the game. Apparently you have no idea of the history of the game you profess to know so much about. 1UP.com Article on History of UO - Reference drop in Felucca population UOForums.com - Scroll down to Belanos' post - Reference player preferences in regard to rule sets Escapist Magazine - Reference drop in Felucca population Finally there's just the logic of the world doubling in size having an impact on the player population on both continents. I have no explanation for your personal experiences, other than reality doesn't agree with you. Having own experience say alot more then quoting players that might be totally unaware of the total number of subscribers and the numbers that play felucca and the number that play trammel. What shard you played on might also differ alot. Drachenfelds for example had lower population then Europe.
My reference is playing from beta to april 2003. I knew all PvP players on Europe shard.
Those players continued to play on felucca after trammel and they left the game after Age of Shadows february 2003. So when it comes to my shard i am right, how it was on other shards might have been a different matter.
UO becoming just another WoW game was what removed all those subscribers in felucca from the game. This is something most people arent aware of. Changing a superb PvP game into WoW wasnt that smart move EA thought it should be.
Here you can see the number of subscribers in UO over time -
Here you can see for yourself that my point of view fit right in with the numbers of subscribers, your view isnt accurate at all. Age of Shadows was the gamebreaker for PvP players and that isnt strange at all since the game became a carebear one with insurance and itemization.
And ask yourself this - why should the PvP players leave the better PvP game UO became after trammel was introduced? I am talking about UO Renaissance that was way, way better then pretrammel PvP. That just not make sence.
UO becaming WoW with Age of Shadows on the other hand left felucca a deserted area. I seem to have more experience then you from UO and my logic is superior yours.
Have to ask, did you even play UO?
It wouldn't surprise me if AoS drove out PvP players, given how it has been described.* I'm not talking about PvP players leaving the game. I'm talking about the PvE players leaving Felucca for Trammel.
The total number of subscribers doesn't give any indication of how the player population split between the two rule sets. What we do have are repeated references to the population of Felucca dropping and repeated references to most of the population playing in Trammel from people who not only played the game, but interviewed Raph Koster and Richard Garriott. The PvP players didn't move, everyone else did and most new players went to Trammel for the relaxed PvP rule set.
History is informing Richard Garriott's decisions with SotA. The game doesn't need full loot or stealing. The game doesn't even need always on PvP. The OP's premise is false.
* It doesn't surprise me that a lot of players would leave UO, regardless of whether they were PvP or PvE players. Why play something that's not as good at being WoW as WoW is? Especially with WoW sitting right there, ready to play. That's something else we can learn from history. Don't make dramatic changes to a game's game play, the players probably won't like it and it probably won't bring in a lot of new players.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Comments
Oh, you again. Gotta correct you twice then.
+1 to Infinity
How about we all stop acting like children and realize that there is a way to have open PvP without their being open gank squads "ruining" the game? Thats just as bad as people who say MMOs with no PvP are useless. At least PvP MMO gamers usually know what they're talking about, but the PvE crowd always seems to speak from total ignorance.
Yes definetly.
Felucca Europe had just as many PvP players as before trammel, and the game was way better. Balanced PvP is something PvP players like and Renaissance had just that.
Evidence LOL. Did you even play UO during Renaissance?
I played from UO beta and i played Europe through Renaissance and it had just as much PvP players as before trammel, difference was that it had balanced quality PvP.
Trammel didnt kill felucca, Age of Shadows killed felucca. Any little text you find on the net dont counter my UO experience.
Have you ever played Eve PvP? It's more then worthless. Just cause a game have PvP dont mean it automatically draw all PvP players to that game.
Some of us have demands on the PvP quality.
I see you have no clue whatsoever what happened to UO.
Age of Shadows was introduced feb 2003 and it made UO to a WoW game. Just about all felucca players stopped playing and that can seen on the subscriber numbers that went downhill from AoS.
I was there and saw myself what happened.
Making the best ever PvP game to a WoW copy was what really removed subscribers from the game.
Why force your view on someone else? Some people just don't like the idea at all regardless of justification.
There will always be people who don't like a game with any element of pvp regardless of reason, just like there will always be people who don't like games with pve servers.
Let them be. Freedom of choice.
It's already to late for SotA. Read up on the game and you can see how the PvE players are doing their best to get a lame version of PvP to suit their carebear playstyle.
No risk vs reward and no consequences is the PvE crowds melody. Slow unskilled PvP so the not so expereinced ones have a chance is also popular. Luck should be a big factor.
SotA is like all potentially good PvP games, the PvE crowd destroy it with their demands. They want PvP to fit their playstyle.
What wrong with your reasoning is that the PvE crowd want SotA PvP to fit them and not the PvP crowd. So PvP players will leave andseek a game that isnt infected by PvE players demands.
They have their open PvE and still they want to destroy what the PvP crowd was hoping for.
I think that's more to do with whether the developer is willing to stick to their guns or not, not so much the playerbase.
If the develop chooses money or inclusionism over their original/intented vision I don't think there is anything any of us can do - and if they choose money first over fun it won't ended up being a good game anyways, regardless of how good the source material is (swtor or Neverwinter anyone?)You realize that's exactly what you're doing, right?
???
I am a pvper buddy... I plays Planetside 2, played APB, Darkfall, WAR, etc etc...
I am just saying why bother arguing with people whose opinion are dead-set against pvp?
You didn't really read what I said, didn't you? Calm down... you don't have to argue with everyone lol... fighting everyone (especially people who are on the same side as you) only pushes people away from your side.
Age of Shadows was introduced feb 2003 and it made UO to a WoW game. Just about all felucca players stopped playing and that can seen on the subscriber numbers that went downhill from AoS.
I was there and saw myself what happened.
Making the best ever PvP game to a WoW copy was what really removed subscribers from the game.
Apparently you have no idea of the history of the game you profess to know so much about.
1UP.com Article on History of UO - Reference drop in Felucca population
UOForums.com - Scroll down to Belanos' post - Reference player preferences in regard to rule sets
Escapist Magazine - Reference drop in Felucca population
Finally there's just the logic of the world doubling in size having an impact on the player population on both continents.
I have no explanation for your personal experiences, other than reality doesn't agree with you.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I'm not sure how you could be more incorrect, maybe you are writing a piece of fiction for this forum?
PvE players and PvP players will never see each other. The magicpvpsliderbarthingy(TM) sees to that. There is also risk vs reward already established, there will be things you simply can't get without taking chances both PvE and PvP and it will also encourage PvE players to try PvP.
If it is going to be done well or not, remains to be seen but the FACT is it will be done.
http://insanemembrain.wordpress.com/
Are you banned from the SotA forum?
In every PvP thread there is PvE players dictating how SotA PvP should turn out and it is a PvP game without risk vs reward and no consequences.
Example of PvE players standpoint on SotA PvP -
Balance PvP from a gear/level/skill/class point of view to the extent that people feel that they have a chance - mean lower the requirement of player skills in SotA so the newbies have a chance.
Lower the penalties for failure. You won’t win any casuals talking about “full loot" - which means remove risk vs reward from the game and there should be no consequences of sucking at PvP and no reward for being the better player.
PvE players demanding this and that to accept open PvP have destroyed so many potentially good PvP games and SotA seem to be the next in line. PvE players is a cancer for PvP.
It is both. I believe they adapt the SotA PvP game to please the PvE crowd.
Having own experience say alot more then quoting players that might be totally unaware of the total number of subscribers and the numbers that play felucca and the number that play trammel. What shard you played on might also differ alot. Drachenfelds for example had lower population then Europe.
My reference is playing from beta to april 2003. I knew all PvP players on Europe shard.
Those players continued to play on felucca after trammel and they left the game after Age of Shadows february 2003. So when it comes to my shard i am right, how it was on other shards might have been a different matter.
UO becoming just another WoW game was what removed all those subscribers in felucca from the game. This is something most people arent aware of. Changing a superb PvP game into WoW wasnt that smart move EA thought it should be.
Here you can see the number of subscribers in UO over time -
http://users.telenet.be/mmodata/Charts/Subs-2.png
Here you can see for yourself that my point of view fit right in with the numbers of subscribers, your view isnt accurate at all. Age of Shadows was the gamebreaker for PvP players and that isnt strange at all since the game became a carebear one with insurance and itemization.
And ask yourself this - why should the PvP players leave the better PvP game UO became after trammel was introduced? I am talking about UO Renaissance that was way, way better then pretrammel PvP. That just not make sence.
UO becaming WoW with Age of Shadows on the other hand left felucca a deserted area. I seem to have more experience then you from UO and my logic is superior yours.
Have to ask, did you even play UO?
The account InsaneMembrane is banned from the SotA forums, yes. They didn't like my comments on their BS housing "interview" over at Paradox and didn't like me calling out some of the tossers over there.
If you think you'll get a civil discussion when it comes to PvP in any forum, keep thinking. There are as many Full Loot idiots there are there are carebears and they just press each other's buttons, then you've got the real losers in the middle: Anti-PKs.
From what I can tell in the dev chats, there will be a pretty close playstyle which allows PK, PvP, Full Loot, the problem that the PKs have is that they want to knock off nubs without challenge. I do so enjoy that myself, but I'll adapt. And on the other side of the coin you have the carebears who seem to think that if there is any PvP at all, it will destroy their game even though they won't be required to take part in it.
It really is just all posturing atm in any case, there is no god damn combat engine or magicpvpsliderbarthingy, or magichandshakesliderbarthingy, or game. One needs to wait, I only have a problem with all the nubs here just tossing out their useless opinions on a game which is yet to take shape.
Chill the actual frack out.
http://insanemembrain.wordpress.com/
I'd say both you and Zep are correct. The PVPers drove out a lot of players early on, however the release of AoS (which shows a spike from box sales, because that's what EA does best) drove out the PVPers, primarily due to insurance, 'blessed' gear, and artifacts.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Apparently you have no idea of the history of the game you profess to know so much about. 1UP.com Article on History of UO - Reference drop in Felucca population UOForums.com - Scroll down to Belanos' post - Reference player preferences in regard to rule sets Escapist Magazine - Reference drop in Felucca population Finally there's just the logic of the world doubling in size having an impact on the player population on both continents. I have no explanation for your personal experiences, other than reality doesn't agree with you.
Having own experience say alot more then quoting players that might be totally unaware of the total number of subscribers and the numbers that play felucca and the number that play trammel. What shard you played on might also differ alot. Drachenfelds for example had lower population then Europe.
My reference is playing from beta to april 2003. I knew all PvP players on Europe shard.
Those players continued to play on felucca after trammel and they left the game after Age of Shadows february 2003. So when it comes to my shard i am right, how it was on other shards might have been a different matter.
UO becoming just another WoW game was what removed all those subscribers in felucca from the game. This is something most people arent aware of. Changing a superb PvP game into WoW wasnt that smart move EA thought it should be.
Here you can see the number of subscribers in UO over time -
http://users.telenet.be/mmodata/Charts/Subs-2.png
Here you can see for yourself that my point of view fit right in with the numbers of subscribers, your view isnt accurate at all. Age of Shadows was the gamebreaker for PvP players and that isnt strange at all since the game became a carebear one with insurance and itemization.
And ask yourself this - why should the PvP players leave the better PvP game UO became after trammel was introduced? I am talking about UO Renaissance that was way, way better then pretrammel PvP. That just not make sence.
UO becaming WoW with Age of Shadows on the other hand left felucca a deserted area. I seem to have more experience then you from UO and my logic is superior yours.
Have to ask, did you even play UO?
It wouldn't surprise me if AoS drove out PvP players, given how it has been described.* I'm not talking about PvP players leaving the game. I'm talking about the PvE players leaving Felucca for Trammel.
The total number of subscribers doesn't give any indication of how the player population split between the two rule sets. What we do have are repeated references to the population of Felucca dropping and repeated references to most of the population playing in Trammel from people who not only played the game, but interviewed Raph Koster and Richard Garriott. The PvP players didn't move, everyone else did and most new players went to Trammel for the relaxed PvP rule set.
History is informing Richard Garriott's decisions with SotA. The game doesn't need full loot or stealing. The game doesn't even need always on PvP. The OP's premise is false.
* It doesn't surprise me that a lot of players would leave UO, regardless of whether they were PvP or PvE players. Why play something that's not as good at being WoW as WoW is? Especially with WoW sitting right there, ready to play. That's something else we can learn from history. Don't make dramatic changes to a game's game play, the players probably won't like it and it probably won't bring in a lot of new players.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.