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MMORPGs are not for casual players.

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  • ray12kray12k riverside, CAPosts: 447Member
    Originally posted by lizardbones

     


    Originally posted by ray12k

    Originally posted by lizardbones  

    Originally posted by ray12k

    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Originally posted by Vunak23

    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Originally posted by Vunak23   To many developers catering to casuals rather than using them as a buffer.     
    It is a free market. The devs can cater to anyone they want. On the flip side, you can always decide not to play their game.
    They can continue to fail as well, you are right it is their decision. 
    And they gravitate towards successes that are not necessarily MMOs ... D3, LoL WoT, .... I bet lots of online game devs have switched MMO plans to MOBA plans.  
     doubt it mobas are a very small community. if anything they will make a fps mmo or  ultra violent single player games with small grouping.   But yeah, casual killed the genre.
    There are more concurrent MOBA players than there are MMORPG subscribers. Not entirely sure about FPS players, but they seem to trail a bit behind the MOBAs in terms of players.  
    wrong lol....  kinda like retarded wrong

    DOTA2 has half a million concurrent players on a daily basis. Eve and SWToR each have half a million subscribers, with Eve clocking in at 60k concurrent players on a daily basis. That doesn't even get into LoL's five million concurrent players.

    If you're not clear on the term, concurrent means the number of people logged in at the same time. It's usually some portion of the total people playing at game. In Eve's case, that ratio is about 10% of the population. Apply the same ratio to DOTA2, and you get five million players. Apply it to LoL and you get fifty million players.

    There are considerably more MOBA players than there are MMORPG players. Those people talk to each other*, they have guilds, discussion boards and community.

    * Maybe they just yell at each other. Whatever.

     

    p2p mmorpgs have 23 million subs. currently. Then if you bring in the ftp. IT out numbers mobas.  FTPMMO's pretty much own the market at the moment.

    lol  has 5 mill concurrent yep. but still not enough to out number mmorpgs yet. Maybe in the future who knows.

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by ray12k
    Originally posted by lizardbones   Originally posted by ray12k Originally posted by lizardbones   Originally posted by ray12k Originally posted by nariusseldon Originally posted by Vunak23 Originally posted by nariusseldon Originally posted by Vunak23   To many developers catering to casuals rather than using them as a buffer.     
    It is a free market. The devs can cater to anyone they want. On the flip side, you can always decide not to play their game.
    They can continue to fail as well, you are right it is their decision. 
    And they gravitate towards successes that are not necessarily MMOs ... D3, LoL WoT, .... I bet lots of online game devs have switched MMO plans to MOBA plans.  
     doubt it mobas are a very small community. if anything they will make a fps mmo or  ultra violent single player games with small grouping.   But yeah, casual killed the genre.
    There are more concurrent MOBA players than there are MMORPG subscribers. Not entirely sure about FPS players, but they seem to trail a bit behind the MOBAs in terms of players.  
    wrong lol....  kinda like retarded wrong
    DOTA2 has half a million concurrent players on a daily basis. Eve and SWToR each have half a million subscribers, with Eve clocking in at 60k concurrent players on a daily basis. That doesn't even get into LoL's five million concurrent players. If you're not clear on the term, concurrent means the number of people logged in at the same time. It's usually some portion of the total people playing at game. In Eve's case, that ratio is about 10% of the population. Apply the same ratio to DOTA2, and you get five million players. Apply it to LoL and you get fifty million players. There are considerably more MOBA players than there are MMORPG players. Those people talk to each other*, they have guilds, discussion boards and community. * Maybe they just yell at each other. Whatever.  
    p2p mmorpgs have 23 million subs. currently. Then if you bring in the ftp. IT out numbers mobas.  FTPMMO's pretty much own the market at the moment.

    lol  has 5 mill concurrent yep. but still not enough to out number mmorpgs yet. Maybe in the future who knows.




    You are terrible at numbers.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • ray12kray12k riverside, CAPosts: 447Member
    Originally posted by lizardbones

     


    Originally posted by ray12k

    Originally posted by lizardbones  

    Originally posted by ray12k

    Originally posted by lizardbones  

    Originally posted by ray12k

    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Originally posted by Vunak23

    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Originally posted by Vunak23   To many developers catering to casuals rather than using them as a buffer.     
    It is a free market. The devs can cater to anyone they want. On the flip side, you can always decide not to play their game.
    They can continue to fail as well, you are right it is their decision. 
    And they gravitate towards successes that are not necessarily MMOs ... D3, LoL WoT, .... I bet lots of online game devs have switched MMO plans to MOBA plans.  
     doubt it mobas are a very small community. if anything they will make a fps mmo or  ultra violent single player games with small grouping.   But yeah, casual killed the genre.
    There are more concurrent MOBA players than there are MMORPG subscribers. Not entirely sure about FPS players, but they seem to trail a bit behind the MOBAs in terms of players.  
    wrong lol....  kinda like retarded wrong
    DOTA2 has half a million concurrent players on a daily basis. Eve and SWToR each have half a million subscribers, with Eve clocking in at 60k concurrent players on a daily basis. That doesn't even get into LoL's five million concurrent players. If you're not clear on the term, concurrent means the number of people logged in at the same time. It's usually some portion of the total people playing at game. In Eve's case, that ratio is about 10% of the population. Apply the same ratio to DOTA2, and you get five million players. Apply it to LoL and you get fifty million players. There are considerably more MOBA players than there are MMORPG players. Those people talk to each other*, they have guilds, discussion boards and community. * Maybe they just yell at each other. Whatever.  
    p2p mmorpgs have 23 million subs. currently. Then if you bring in the ftp. IT out numbers mobas.  FTPMMO's pretty much own the market at the moment.

     

    lol  has 5 mill concurrent yep. but still not enough to out number mmorpgs yet. Maybe in the future who knows.



    You are terrible at numbers.

     

    I have links if you like... Your wrong...

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by ray12k
    Originally posted by lizardbones   Originally posted by ray12k Originally posted by lizardbones   Originally posted by ray12k Originally posted by lizardbones   Originally posted by ray12k Originally posted by nariusseldon Originally posted by Vunak23 Originally posted by nariusseldon Originally posted by Vunak23   To many developers catering to casuals rather than using them as a buffer.     
    It is a free market. The devs can cater to anyone they want. On the flip side, you can always decide not to play their game.
    They can continue to fail as well, you are right it is their decision. 
    And they gravitate towards successes that are not necessarily MMOs ... D3, LoL WoT, .... I bet lots of online game devs have switched MMO plans to MOBA plans.  
     doubt it mobas are a very small community. if anything they will make a fps mmo or  ultra violent single player games with small grouping.   But yeah, casual killed the genre.
    There are more concurrent MOBA players than there are MMORPG subscribers. Not entirely sure about FPS players, but they seem to trail a bit behind the MOBAs in terms of players.  
    wrong lol....  kinda like retarded wrong
    DOTA2 has half a million concurrent players on a daily basis. Eve and SWToR each have half a million subscribers, with Eve clocking in at 60k concurrent players on a daily basis. That doesn't even get into LoL's five million concurrent players. If you're not clear on the term, concurrent means the number of people logged in at the same time. It's usually some portion of the total people playing at game. In Eve's case, that ratio is about 10% of the population. Apply the same ratio to DOTA2, and you get five million players. Apply it to LoL and you get fifty million players. There are considerably more MOBA players than there are MMORPG players. Those people talk to each other*, they have guilds, discussion boards and community. * Maybe they just yell at each other. Whatever.  
    p2p mmorpgs have 23 million subs. currently. Then if you bring in the ftp. IT out numbers mobas.  FTPMMO's pretty much own the market at the moment.   lol  has 5 mill concurrent yep. but still not enough to out number mmorpgs yet. Maybe in the future who knows.
    You are terrible at numbers.  
    I have links if you like... Your wrong...


    Oh no, I'm not disputing the number of MMORPG players. You're just terrible at numbers.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • HolophonistHolophonist Pittsburgh, PAPosts: 2,086Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Xssiv

    Let's be honest, there was nothing hardcore about old school MMO's, they just required more time and didn't have the quality of life features that we've grown accustomed to. 

     

    For some reason, many people choose to blame WoW as a way to deal with the fact that they can't seem to recapture the magic of the old MMO's.  

    Unfortunately, the magic wasn't really about the games but more about the concept of being online in a persistent world with thousands of other people.    As soon as everyone and their mother got high-speed internet, online gaming lost a bit of it's luster.  

    Wrong. Oldschool MMOs typically didn't hold your hand through every step of the journey. You had to experience the the game for yourself and figure things out on your own. I can't believe how often this lie is thrown out to cover up for WoW's blatant watering down of gameplay. It's not us that's changed, it's the games.

  • HolophonistHolophonist Pittsburgh, PAPosts: 2,086Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by fivoroth
    Originally posted by Holophonist
    Originally posted by fivoroth
    Originally posted by Holophonist
    Originally posted by Neo_Viper
    Originally posted by Panther2103
    I think that a lot of casual players don't think they are casual, so they try mmorpg games and end up hopping from game to game trying to find one that works for them. I don't think in general any MMORPG is designed to be casual friendly, they take a long time, and a lot of devotion to getting what you want in them, or just doing general things in MMO's take quite a bit longer than a match of Call of Duty or a round of a Football game. 

    A lot think they are "hardcore" when they are not, too. The true "hardcores" are found playing the games and beating the hardest content of them, and not crying on forums that nothing is "hardcore" anymore.

    One of the most difficult and "hardcore" games ever, SC2, also has a very vocal community that loves whining on forums.

    Only the bronze-gold/diamond "hardcore" players are whining. The real hardcore pro people are playing the game all time to whine about the game. Funnily enough those bronze-diamond people have no idea about balance. Just like these "hardcore" MMO players have no idea what difficult is/what an MMO should look like.

    I agree that a lot of the people whining are in lower leagues, but that's only because MOST people are in those lower leagues. There are still a surprising amount of masters players who argue about things on forums (myself included, though not all that often). But the fact is that even people in plat and diamond are probably more skilled and "hardcore" than most people who play any mmo.

    That's true. Playing a plat/diamond level game in SC2 is like rocket science compared to playing MMOs. MMO players are more on the level of gold league players D:

    If that! Seriously... I have friends who used to play SC2 and now they play LoL. Any time they ever load up SC2 and get in a game they don't even remember how to play. Comparing the mechanics in SC2 to any other game (particularly MMOs) is not even close.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Arclan


    Let me fill you in on something I assumed everyone knew. Nothing in this life is difficult; you can achieve anything provided you dedicate the time. Being a doctor is not difficult; but getting there is certainly "tedious and time consuming."

    Really? All the mathematicians who dedicates their lives and failed to prove P=NP (or not equal) would disagree. All the scientists who dedicate their lives to research and never came close to a nobel prize will disagree.

    In fact, I doubt you can learn enough infinite dimensional analysis to work in the area even if you dedicated the rest of your life to it.

     

  • ArclanArclan Chicago, ILPosts: 1,494Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Arclan Let me fill you in on something I assumed everyone knew. Nothing in this life is difficult; you can achieve anything provided you dedicate the time. Being a doctor is not difficult; but getting there is certainly "tedious and time consuming."
    Really? All the mathematicians who dedicates their lives and failed to prove P=NP (or not equal) would disagree. All the scientists who dedicate their lives to research and never came close to a nobel prize will disagree.

    In fact, I doubt you can learn enough infinite dimensional analysis to work in the area even if you dedicated the rest of your life to it.

     


    Utter nonsense. If you think your cognitive ability is a handicap, maybe it is; but don't speak for everyone else.

    Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
    In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit

  • jpnzjpnz SydneyPosts: 3,529Member
    Originally posted by Arclan

    Let me fill you in on something I assumed everyone knew. Nothing in this life is difficult; you can achieve anything provided you dedicate the time. Being a doctor is not difficult; but getting there is certainly "tedious and time consuming."

    As someone who worked with some voluntary organisation on child disabilities, this stance is utter garbage.

    Gdemami -
    Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  • c0existc0exist Round Rock, TXPosts: 192Member
    Originally posted by Holophonist
    Originally posted by Xssiv

    Let's be honest, there was nothing hardcore about old school MMO's, they just required more time and didn't have the quality of life features that we've grown accustomed to. 

     

    For some reason, many people choose to blame WoW as a way to deal with the fact that they can't seem to recapture the magic of the old MMO's.  

    Unfortunately, the magic wasn't really about the games but more about the concept of being online in a persistent world with thousands of other people.    As soon as everyone and their mother got high-speed internet, online gaming lost a bit of it's luster.  

    Wrong. Oldschool MMOs typically didn't hold your hand through every step of the journey. You had to experience the the game for yourself and figure things out on your own. I can't believe how often this lie is thrown out to cover up for WoW's blatant watering down of gameplay. It's not us that's changed, it's the games.

     Xssiv hardcore is not about fearing for your life at every turn its more about the dedication to your player.  Nothing was handed to you, quests did not give exp.  The only exp you received was from killing something.  Quests were difficult in the fact that they required a group setup and had to be studied to see where to go.  Things took time to accomplish and were very rewarding in the end.  Now people are so spoiled by being able to teleport everywhere; even within cities.  The effort to build up your character is no longer needed because nothing requires dedication anymore.

  • jpnzjpnz SydneyPosts: 3,529Member
    Originally posted by c0exist
     

     Xssiv hardcore is not about fearing for your life at every turn its more about the dedication to your player.  Nothing was handed to you, quests did not give exp.  The only exp you received was from killing something.  Quests were difficult in the fact that they required a group setup and had to be studied to see where to go.  Things took time to accomplish and were very rewarding in the end.  Now people are so spoiled by being able to teleport everywhere; even within cities.  The effort to build up your character is no longer needed because nothing requires dedication anymore.

    I myself don't go into VIDEO GAMES in search of accomplishment or 'rewards'.

    I go into Video games looking for entertainment.

    Gdemami -
    Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  • HolophonistHolophonist Pittsburgh, PAPosts: 2,086Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by jpnz
    Originally posted by c0exist
     

     Xssiv hardcore is not about fearing for your life at every turn its more about the dedication to your player.  Nothing was handed to you, quests did not give exp.  The only exp you received was from killing something.  Quests were difficult in the fact that they required a group setup and had to be studied to see where to go.  Things took time to accomplish and were very rewarding in the end.  Now people are so spoiled by being able to teleport everywhere; even within cities.  The effort to build up your character is no longer needed because nothing requires dedication anymore.

    I myself don't go into VIDEO GAMES in search of accomplishment or 'rewards'.

    I go into Video games looking for entertainment.

    Well without knowing more about your preferences, most people would probably have no problem labeling you as a "casual" player. It's ok to be a casual player, but just so you know, you're probably getting less out of your games than somebody who is indeed looking for accomplishment, reward, etc. 

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Arclan

     


    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Originally posted by Arclan Let me fill you in on something I assumed everyone knew. Nothing in this life is difficult; you can achieve anything provided you dedicate the time. Being a doctor is not difficult; but getting there is certainly "tedious and time consuming."
    Really? All the mathematicians who dedicates their lives and failed to prove P=NP (or not equal) would disagree. All the scientists who dedicate their lives to research and never came close to a nobel prize will disagree.

     

    In fact, I doubt you can learn enough infinite dimensional analysis to work in the area even if you dedicated the rest of your life to it.

     


     

    Utter nonsense. If you think your cognitive ability is a handicap, maybe it is; but don't speak for everyone else.

    well .. i insist to speak for you. If you want to prove me wrong, feel free to prove P=NP (or not equal). BTW, there is a $1M award associated with that problem too, just as an added incentive.

     

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by jpnz
    Originally posted by Arclan

    Let me fill you in on something I assumed everyone knew. Nothing in this life is difficult; you can achieve anything provided you dedicate the time. Being a doctor is not difficult; but getting there is certainly "tedious and time consuming."

    As someone who worked with some voluntary organisation on child disabilities, this stance is utter garbage.

    And he would have no proof. I would love to see him try to win a Nobel Prize, or a Field's medal. Heck, I would concede the point if he just go get a PhD in Math from Princeton.

    He would spew a lot of his "opinions" but he would not be able to accomplish any true "difficult" things that we can list here.

     

  • HolophonistHolophonist Pittsburgh, PAPosts: 2,086Member Uncommon
    Hyperbole aside, I think we can all agree that almost everybody can achieve any GAMING feat that would be available to an MMORPG. The VAST majority of anybody playing WoW could eventually get to the point where they could do super crazy mega high end raids. 
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Holophonist
    Hyperbole aside, I think we can all agree that almost everybody can achieve any GAMING feat that would be available to an MMORPG. The VAST majority of anybody playing WoW could eventually get to the point where they could do super crazy mega high end raids. 

    If so, why did only 2% of the players ever finished Sunwell. It is well known that very few have completed hard mode raid.

    In fact, how about world first? By definition, only ONE group can have "world first" of anything. Now tell me how "everyboday can achieve ANY gaming feat" when most players cannot achieve the "world first" feat.

     

  • HolophonistHolophonist Pittsburgh, PAPosts: 2,086Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Holophonist
    Hyperbole aside, I think we can all agree that almost everybody can achieve any GAMING feat that would be available to an MMORPG. The VAST majority of anybody playing WoW could eventually get to the point where they could do super crazy mega high end raids. 

    If so, why did only 2% of the players ever finished Sunwell. It is well known that very few have completed hard mode raid.

    In fact, how about world first? By definition, only ONE group can have "world first" of anything. Now tell me how "everyboday can achieve ANY gaming feat" when most players cannot achieve the "world first" feat.

     

    As other people have said, it's just a matter of time and effort. 2% of people have finished Sunwell... how many tried? And not just tried once, but how many people do you think COULD complete Sunwell if they actually devoted as much time and effort as they had? Hint: it's a hell of a lot more than 2%.

     

    World first or server first have literally no place in this discussion. At that point you're competing against other players, not the content itself. Example: it gets more difficult as more people are attempting to do it, so it has nothing to do with how difficult the game itself is.

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Holophonist Hyperbole aside, I think we can all agree that almost everybody can achieve any GAMING feat that would be available to an MMORPG. The VAST majority of anybody playing WoW could eventually get to the point where they could do super crazy mega high end raids. 
    If so, why did only 2% of the players ever finished Sunwell. It is well known that very few have completed hard mode raid.

    In fact, how about world first? By definition, only ONE group can have "world first" of anything. Now tell me how "everyboday can achieve ANY gaming feat" when most players cannot achieve the "world first" feat.

     




    The only difference between older games like EQ and newer games like WoW is where the time sinks exist. In EQ the time sink was the entire game. In WoW the time sink is in the end game raids.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • ray12kray12k riverside, CAPosts: 447Member
    Originally posted by lizardbones

     


    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Originally posted by Holophonist Hyperbole aside, I think we can all agree that almost everybody can achieve any GAMING feat that would be available to an MMORPG. The VAST majority of anybody playing WoW could eventually get to the point where they could do super crazy mega high end raids. 
    If so, why did only 2% of the players ever finished Sunwell. It is well known that very few have completed hard mode raid.

     

    In fact, how about world first? By definition, only ONE group can have "world first" of anything. Now tell me how "everyboday can achieve ANY gaming feat" when most players cannot achieve the "world first" feat.

     



    The only difference between older games like EQ and newer games like WoW is where the time sinks exist. In EQ the time sink was the entire game. In WoW the time sink is in the end game raids.

     

    ah no, past games were more social and role playing. You could actually customize a character and play as you wished. One they put you on the theme park track your going they way the tracks take you.

     

    but then again I never played eq I was playing AC1.  I predict next big mmorpg is released on console. Its to the point where gaming is just leaving the pc behind. Good job devs.

  • HolophonistHolophonist Pittsburgh, PAPosts: 2,086Member Uncommon
    I didn't play EQ either, I was more of a UO guy myself. But everything I hear about it suggests that it was kind of the precursor to modern themeparks. So I find it kind of interesting to see people go back and forth about how EQ was different or whatever, cause it seems like it was kind of the start to themeparks and so I'm not even sure we (sandbox advocates) shouldn't even be using it as a measure of the "good old days" of MMOs. Like I said though, I haven't played it.
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by ray12k
     

    ah no, past games were more social and role playing. You could actually customize a character and play as you wished. One they put you on the theme park track your going they way the tracks take you.

     

    EQ is RPing? That makes me LoL.

    There was zero RPing in EQ .. at least in my experience. People talking about camp order, and loot drama was not RPing. Discussing spawn time, and which spawn point was available ... is not RPing.

    Talking about kids and RL stuff during down-time (because of the boredom) is not RPing.

     

  • Univers0Univers0 SydneyPosts: 29Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Univers0
    What made Everquest shine was not the difficulty, but the immersion and the community.   I think majority of players were casual even in Everquest.   Besides just because you combine the same ingredients, does not mean you will get the same result as in pre-WoW days.

    EQ did not shine for me.

    And what immersion? Killing the same mob again and again, respawned at exact the same spot is immersive? There is zero interaction with the world except killing mobs. Is that immersive? Any ARPG is 100x more "immersive". At least you can blow up barrels and open chests.

    It is good that MMO have evolved beyond EQ. Otherwise, i would not play any MMO anymore.

     

    I felt that immersion was due to zone and artistic design, for example the surrealism of Plane of Fear which may still give me nightmares.  Although the graphics were choppy and crude, I found that the mix of familiar and otherworldly landscapes to be as real as life itself. 

  • HatefullHatefull Posts: 774Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Neo_Viper
    This topic is new and has never been seen before...


    Ditto. I agree that WoW gave access to a whole new type of gamer, what I refer to as: 'The hold my hand' gamer, and I agree that it has lead to many many clones of that business model.

    I do not however, agree that the effects will be the 'norm' much longer. There are indy companies out there working their asses off to get something published that is what you describe. Has waiting for a decent game sucked? yeah it has. Has this topic been discussed to death and beyond? yes, it has.

    I miss the feeling SWG brought, talk about a rabidly loyal fan base, and the PRE-CU learning curve was amazing, but it was fun, it was open world sand box with theme park elements and it worked well. I believe this will happen again, and I hope it is a small indy company that does it and I hope they are happy being niche. And then I, much like all the people that think like I do, will play it until the server burns down.

    If you want a new idea, go read an old book.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Univers0
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Univers0
    What made Everquest shine was not the difficulty, but the immersion and the community.   I think majority of players were casual even in Everquest.   Besides just because you combine the same ingredients, does not mean you will get the same result as in pre-WoW days.

    EQ did not shine for me.

    And what immersion? Killing the same mob again and again, respawned at exact the same spot is immersive? There is zero interaction with the world except killing mobs. Is that immersive? Any ARPG is 100x more "immersive". At least you can blow up barrels and open chests.

    It is good that MMO have evolved beyond EQ. Otherwise, i would not play any MMO anymore.

     

    I felt that immersion was due to zone and artistic design, for example the surrealism of Plane of Fear which may still give me nightmares.  Although the graphics were choppy and crude, I found that the mix of familiar and otherworldly landscapes to be as real as life itself. 

    Really? If so, you must feel a lot of immersion in modern MMO since they have much better art and graphics of zones.

     

  • FinalFikusFinalFikus Chicago, ILPosts: 906Member
    Virtual Worlds are for anyone.

    "If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"

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