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Why so few abilities on the action bar?

2

Comments

  • sanshi44sanshi44 BrisbanePosts: 1,088Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Mastaccolli

    There are only 8 because thats all a console controller can handle.  This isnt going to be made for PC its a console game at heart. 

     

     Pritty sure FF14 is on PS3 and it has a billion skills doesnt make the game harder though u just cycle 5-6 skill baiscly anyway + the cooldown skill on bosses.

  • FlyinDutchman87FlyinDutchman87 London MIlls, ILPosts: 246Member Uncommon

    Yeah even with a controller you could realisticly use around  16 skills.

     

    number of skills =/= depth. 

     

    Have any of you every player divekick?

     

    There are two buttons. Jump and Kick, anyone who says that game is shallow is an idiot. It makes the game into a chessmatch of timing, mind games, and skill. Which is as much as any combat can ask for.

     

    That's not saying EQN will be simlilar because I have no idea. I'm just saying number of skills is a bad judge of the complexity and fun of combat.   

  • KyllienKyllien Renton, WAPosts: 315Member
    Originally posted by Dutchman87

    Yeah even with a controller you could realisticly use around  16 skills.

     

    number of skills =/= depth. 

     

    Have any of you every player divekick?

     

    There are two buttons. Jump and Kick, anyone who says that game is shallow is an idiot. It makes the game into a chessmatch of timing, mind games, and skill. Which is as much as any combat can ask for.

     

    That's not saying EQN will be simlilar because I have no idea. I'm just saying number of skills is a bad judge of the complexity and fun of combat.   

    Hmm so the whole combining button pressing.  The Xbox controller which is now the default PC controller has a whole 4 buttons and 4 triggers.  So that equals 8 buttons.  You can subtract then multiply the number of button by taking one or more buttons and converting them into switch mode.  So take the Xbox controller again.  Change Left Trigger 2 to a switch the other buttons now are doubled so the Original 8 minus the 1, which now counts as two, times the 7 remaining buttons  is 14. Take both Left and Right Trigger 2s and make then independent switches (they only operate one at time) the remaining 6 buttons become 18 buttons.  Make the two triggers inter-related switches and the count moves to 24. 

    But the real issue is that people that don't play FPS don't want to mess with button combinations so the original 8 are just that, 8. 

    So why don't we just wait and find out together how exactly they really plan to implement combat and combinations.  Combinations may work but we don't know how yet.  Will it be combining button presses or cycling through the buttons? We will see in due time. 

    Last parting shot.  When using the keyboard and smashing the 8 skill buttons; let's not forget that the mouse usually has three buttons too.  But the mouse buttons will probably be like WASD in that they are the same for every player.  But what if right clicking acted like a switch and changed the original 8 button into 16.  All while you are still watching the action and instinctively pressing the appropriate buttons when it seems natural to release a barrage of arrows or rush in slashing with both swords.

  • KyllienKyllien Renton, WAPosts: 315Member
    Originally posted by VintzQc

    Hi,

    This game looks amazing with the mechanics and all, but i'm worried about the fact one character cannot have more than 8 abilities on the same page. This looks to me like combat will be too simple and limit players in what they can perform in combat situations. Is there any chance they could increase those 8 abilities to 12, 15, or even more?

     

    Also, do you guys think there will be open world PvP?

     

    Thx for your thoughts about that

    You actually will have 4 weapon skills and 4 interchangeable character skill.  They also mentioned that there maybe combinations.  So 4 weapon skills may become:

    Button 1 use skill 1

    Button 2 use skill 2

    Button 3 use skill 3

    Button 4 use skill 4

    Button 1 and 2 use skill combo 5

    Button 1 and 3 use skill combo 6

    Button 1 and 4 use skill combo 7

    Button 2 and 3 use skill combo 8

    Button 2 and 4 use skill combo 9

    Button 3 and 4 use skill combo 10

    And that is just combining the weapon based skills.

    The character skill may also combine say take an Ice spell and combine it with a wind vortex and now you have an Ice Tempest.

     

    And the word is still mum on PVP overall and even less being said about its scope.  My hope is that they appease both groups and create multiple servers and rule sets.

  • ignore_meignore_me Apple Valley, CAPosts: 1,987Member

    If they balance the game for PvP like they did with GW2 it will be fail for PvE players. I like PvP games and I understand the need for balance, but PvE playing is better when you can have diversity of builds that have actual varying levels of effectiveness depending on how they are used. I suspect the rumored lack of in-combat weapon switching is designed along the idea of balance, which is awful. It's nice to be able to switch weapons as it adds another layer of flexibility. You'd think with this restrictive 8 button bar they would at least allow that bar to be more dynamic

     

     

    Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011

  • grifjgrifj Bellevue, WAPosts: 110Member

    One of the few things I like about EQN is that it will have fewer abilities available at one time.  I loved EQ1's design with only up to 8 spells and where melee types (and even non-hybrids until they hit casting level) had only a few different abilities until much later on.  The game was about the game, not about clicking a bunch of buttons or memorizing long sequences of abilities.  It was about managing pulls, teamwork, positioning, and efficient use of the spells and abilities you had available to you, rather than about spamming buttons.  I deplore the EQ2/WoW model of having rows and rows of abilities to click on.  Bleh.

    So while I don't like EQN's apparent positioning with its cartoony graphics, destructible EVERYTHING, parkour movement, and other things that seem more appropriate for a console action RPG than a MMORPG, that is one of the few things I like.

    I do not, however, like the idea of having abilities tied to specific weapons. 

  • NadiaNadia Canonsburg, PAPosts: 11,866Member Common
    Originally posted by evilastro

    It looks like EQN will be closer to GW1 than GW2 in terms of character building.

    hope you're right

  • AsboAsbo ManchesterPosts: 796Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by VintzQc

    Hi,

    This game looks amazing with the mechanics and all, but i'm worried about the fact one character cannot have more than 8 abilities on the same page. This looks to me like combat will be too simple and limit players in what they can perform in combat situations. Is there any chance they could increase those 8 abilities to 12, 15, or even more?

     

    Also, do you guys think there will be open world PvP?

     

    Thx for your thoughts about that

    Personally I feel your worrying over nothing and I'd worry after we know more as no one can see how everything works and until then it's pointless getting worked up.

    Asbo

  • VintzQcVintzQc montreal, QCPosts: 10Member Common

    My point here is to know what fellow players are thinking about when it comes to how many abilities are available during a fight. Be that fight PvP or PvE, i mean, players should have the widest range of options possible, the largest flexibility possible when using abilities/spells/etc .

     

    Especially if they intend the game to be as open-minded as they present it.

    As for the console vs computer argument, the reason i play video games on computer is BECAUSE i have more than 8 buttons on my toy.

  • JebbJebb LeedsPosts: 19Member
    A need for a thousand macros strewn across obscure combinations of buttons on the keyboard is only born of otherwise lackluster and uninteresting combat mechanics. That being said, I at least hope that they include a weapon swap. Management of which abilities you have to hand and deciding when to make the swap is far more interesting to me than having to concoct an impossible array of key-bindings.

    "Jesus promised to rid the world of all wicked people. Odin promised to rid the world of all ice giants. I don't see many ice giants."

  • ThomasN7ThomasN7 87.18.7.148 1, NJPosts: 6,690Member

    Because ...

    A. They want anyone with an iq below 0 to understand it so they can profit more.

    B. They can have a lot of classes without ruining balance so much.

    C. See A...

    30
  • rungardrungard st. john''s, NFPosts: 1,035Member
    Originally posted by VintzQc

    My point here is to know what fellow players are thinking about when it comes to how many abilities are available during a fight. Be that fight PvP or PvE, i mean, players should have the widest range of options possible, the largest flexibility possible when using abilities/spells/etc .

     

    Especially if they intend the game to be as open-minded as they present it.

    As for the console vs computer argument, the reason i play video games on computer is BECAUSE i have more than 8 buttons on my toy.

    you get 8 abilities at a time, which I think is plenty but....you have to be able to switch out both banks of 4 on the fly, so in effect you have 16 abilities with the limitation that you have to group them in fours..Still very tactical with lots of flexability.

  • daltaniousdaltanious waPosts: 2,144Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by VintzQc

    Hi,

    This game looks amazing with the mechanics and all, but i'm worried about the fact one character cannot have more than 8 abilities on the same page. This looks to me like combat will be too simple and limit players in what they can perform in combat situations. Is there any chance they could increase those 8 abilities to 12, 15, or even more?

     

    Also, do you guys think there will be open world PvP?

     

    Thx for your thoughts about that

    After I have read somewhere about this silly limitation (that drove me away from TSW as sole reason) that spells button masher, I have lost any interest in this game. Even rarely read any forums regarding. When I do is actually to check if something changed about.

  • nisraknisrak Honolulu, HIPosts: 70Member
    Originally posted by ThomasN7

    Because ...

    A. They want anyone with an iq below 0 to understand it so they can profit more.

    B. They can have a lot of classes without ruining balance so much.

    C. See A...

    In EQ1 raiding Plane of Time my warrior had 3 main abilities: auto-attack, taunt, and kick (plus a couple macros for discplines).  Tanking Rallos-Zek or Quarm was extremely difficult and exciting and the smallest mistake meant a wipe and 30-minute corpse recovery.

    In WoW raiding black temple or mount hyjal in Burning Crusade, my mage had dozens of abilities but I could spam my 3 main abilities and usually be top of dps charts, as long as I wasn't too stupid to check if I was standing in fire.  Since then, they have only added more abilities and people tend to agree the game is even easier...

    I think the argument that more abilities = harder really makes no sense.

  • grifjgrifj Bellevue, WAPosts: 110Member
    Originally posted by VintzQc

    My point here is to know what fellow players are thinking about when it comes to how many abilities are available during a fight. Be that fight PvP or PvE, i mean, players should have the widest range of options possible, the largest flexibility possible when using abilities/spells/etc .

     

    Especially if they intend the game to be as open-minded as they present it.

    As for the console vs computer argument, the reason i play video games on computer is BECAUSE i have more than 8 buttons on my toy.

    There's a huge difference between only ever having 8 abilities to choose from and having 100 abilities to choose from but only 8 available at a time.  I prefer the latter.  Requires some strategic thought at what to memorize/equip at any particular time.

    No idea why people love to have 4 hotbars with 10 abilities each available at one time.  Definitely doesn't appeal to me.

  • zaylinzaylin Olympia, WAPosts: 789Member

    Seems to be a semi new trend, well at least with a few , GW2, ESO, are a couple boasting minimal UI/Hotbars.

    But if you look at games with multiple HBs (2-6) how many of those abilites spreed out threw all those hotbars do you really use consistantly?

     

  • BigmamajamaBigmamajama Houston, TXPosts: 198Member
    Because one skill and double tapping dodge is all you really need.  Works for GW2
  • tom_goretom_gore TamperePosts: 1,796Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Kyllien

    Hmm so the whole combining button pressing.  The Xbox controller which is now the default PC controller has a whole 4 buttons and 4 triggers.  So that equals 8 buttons.  You can subtract then multiply the number of button by taking one or more buttons and converting them into switch mode.  So take the Xbox controller again.  Change Left Trigger 2 to a switch the other buttons now are doubled so the Original 8 minus the 1, which now counts as two, times the 7 remaining buttons  is 14. Take both Left and Right Trigger 2s and make then independent switches (they only operate one at time) the remaining 6 buttons become 18 buttons.  Make the two triggers inter-related switches and the count moves to 24. 

    Two more buttons on the analog pads and 4 more on the d-pad, totaling 14. Two more if you count start and select buttons.

     

  • solarbear88solarbear88 BathurstPosts: 73Member
    While I worry and stress that the 8 skill limit is merely so it plays on a controller, I hope it makes classes more Iconic. Unlike GW2 where nealy every class can apply bleeds, poisons, fburning, weakness, and CC, with limited skills your abilities you bring to the table might be more unique and stand out.
  • ropeniceropenice Lake Worth, FLPosts: 587Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by grifj
    Originally posted by VintzQc

    My point here is to know what fellow players are thinking about when it comes to how many abilities are available during a fight. Be that fight PvP or PvE, i mean, players should have the widest range of options possible, the largest flexibility possible when using abilities/spells/etc .

     

    Especially if they intend the game to be as open-minded as they present it.

    As for the console vs computer argument, the reason i play video games on computer is BECAUSE i have more than 8 buttons on my toy.

    There's a huge difference between only ever having 8 abilities to choose from and having 100 abilities to choose from but only 8 available at a time.  I prefer the latter.  Requires some strategic thought at what to memorize/equip at any particular time.

    No idea why people love to have 4 hotbars with 10 abilities each available at one time.  Definitely doesn't appeal to me.

    Though on a ddo wizard i had 5 bars for spells and 2 more for potions and items, thats a bit much for action based combat, but I think most people would be happy with it being 12. If its going to be an open, free system then we should have the # of choices we want (or at least more choices). If having the extra abilities are useless like i've seen people say, then you can only use the 8, but more choices are always better. Even if some abilities are just situational and used a lot less.

  • tom_goretom_gore TamperePosts: 1,796Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by solarbear88
    While I worry and stress that the 8 skill limit is merely so it plays on a controller, I hope it makes classes more Iconic. Unlike GW2 where nealy every class can apply bleeds, poisons, fburning, weakness, and CC, with limited skills your abilities you bring to the table might be more unique and stand out.

    With over 40 classes, as they have said there will be, I think it's safe to say there are not too many unique classes, but most are a slight variation of another class.

     

  • sanshi44sanshi44 BrisbanePosts: 1,088Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by tom_gore
    Originally posted by solarbear88
    While I worry and stress that the 8 skill limit is merely so it plays on a controller, I hope it makes classes more Iconic. Unlike GW2 where nealy every class can apply bleeds, poisons, fburning, weakness, and CC, with limited skills your abilities you bring to the table might be more unique and stand out.

    With over 40 classes, as they have said there will be, I think it's safe to say there are not too many unique classes, but most are a slight variation of another class.

     

     40 classes may include craftiung classes aswell. EQ1 had like 13 unique combat classes and they could easy come up with another 13 ontop of those original ones so 40 doesnt seem out of the question for em to be honost.

  • DullahanDullahan Posts: 2,053Member Uncommon


  • KyllienKyllien Renton, WAPosts: 315Member
    Originally posted by VintzQc

    My point here is to know what fellow players are thinking about when it comes to how many abilities are available during a fight. Be that fight PvP or PvE, i mean, players should have the widest range of options possible, the largest flexibility possible when using abilities/spells/etc .

     

    Especially if they intend the game to be as open-minded as they present it.

    As for the console vs computer argument, the reason i play video games on computer is BECAUSE i have more than 8 buttons on my toy.

    How successful is PvP if you are paying more attention to 45 action bar buttons and cool down timers all while you are hopping around like mad going to actually be able to aquire your target, read his tells and be able to beat him?

    This is not about how many buttons a controller on a console has but about having the ability to manage combat successfully.

    And 40+ classes (with a significant number of combat classes) and the ability to mix and max character abilities gives you a nice wide range of abilities.

    To sum up.  There are two schools of thought.  One is the player who focuses on combat, reads his enemies tells and reacts quickly without thought to situations.  The other is the ability spamming, cooldown watching, boring combat all because you think more active abilities is somehow better.

  • rungardrungard st. john''s, NFPosts: 1,035Member
    Originally posted by Dullahan

    Don't forget the D-pad, which could be used to shuffle weapons and utility skills, and still leave 2 buttons to spare.

    in summary

    4+4 weapon skills and 4+4 utility skills=16 usable skills. The required improvement needed, but not implemented, for GW2 style action combat..

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