Originally posted by Neo_Viper Just out of curiosity, who out of the virtual muscle flexing self proclaimed "hardcores" here have beaten all the heroic mode raid content in WoW?
I'm pretty sure most people here don't know anything about WoW past Raid Finder.
1, MMORPGs of old (here I go again) were based on the principles of what is now defined as a sandbox in general.
2, MMORPGs were intended to be open-world, have heavy and involved character development, and introduce people to a fantasy world where you could do what you want at any point, leaving the community to combine and create guilds, adventure and explore the map, and build upon their social foundation.
3, MMORPGs are social games.
1, Are "today's mmorpg's based on the principles of "sandbox"?
2, Are today's mmorpg's, at least those on the market at the moment, made to be open-world with heavy character development with weight on community involvement?
3, Are today's MMorpg's social games?
If the answer is "no" then I would say that MMORPG'S are no longer these things and your initial response is now incorrect.
Though quite frankly I would argue that they are still social.
I'd also argue that your list really doesn't speak to the idea of casual as opposed to hardcore because casual players could easily want a sandbox game that has involved character development and heavy community involvement making them social games.
They will just want to be able to play them and get things done in shorter time periods.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
A game's success should not be measured in it's financial earnings...
I think many developers, and certainly most publishers would vehemently disagree with you. Nobody wants to borrow millions of dollars to create a beautiful, unique snowflake that doesn't sell.
Originally posted by Neo_Viper Just out of curiosity, who out of the virtual muscle flexing self proclaimed "hardcores" here have beaten all the heroic mode raid content in WoW?
I'm pretty sure most people here don't know anything about WoW past Raid Finder.
Actually WOW was pretty damn difficult in its early years. Vanilla WOW - AQ and Naxx were extremely hard. I am sure that most of these badass hardcore players haven't even been to any of these raids. Also Sunwell. Nuff said. WoW back in the day was not so casual friendly. It took ages to get to max level (I think I needed 2-3 months to get to level 60 and was playing only 1 char) and the grind at max level was crazy. But it was fun.
Long story short: WoW was the best MMO ever. The crap that followed was just that. Crap. The games before WoW were crap too (for me). EQ was the most boring game I've ever played. UO at least was somewhat fun
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
Originally posted by Neo_Viper Just out of curiosity, who out of the virtual muscle flexing self proclaimed "hardcores" here have beaten all the heroic mode raid content in WoW?
Here's where we disagree. You think a game's difficulty is defined by its hardest content. I think it's defined by its easiest content.
Originally posted by fivoroth ...WoW back in the day was not so casual friendly. It took ages to get to max level (I think I needed 2-3 months to get to level 60 and was playing only 1 char) and the grind at max level was crazy. But it was fun....EQ was the most boring game I've ever played.
If you are used to Wow's themeparkness and fast leveling, and I assure you max level in two months is fast; then of course you would find EQ boring. For the same reason, WoW poses no challenge and hence offers no appeal to most EQ players.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon. In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
Originally posted by Tygranir I think "Hardcore" players are just choosing the wrong MMOs to play. What you are looking for is out there.
No he has a point when he says MMORPGs try to cater to more than 50 000 people and shoot for the 4 950 000 others. Oh wait, it actually makes sense for business. My opinion is that those who label themselves as "hardcore gamers" really have nothing of value in their lives to go after, not even money, so it is futile to try and cater to them.
Boycotting EA. Why? They suck, even moreso since 2008.
A game's success should not be measured in it's financial earnings...
I think many developers, and certainly most publishers would vehemently disagree with you. Nobody wants to borrow millions of dollars to create a beautiful, unique snowflake that doesn't sell.
That being said, if you focus on the money the game is not going to meet the expectations of the playerbase and you won't get money for your pile of junk either. So developers should get a hint and start focusing on quality instead of what rakes in money.
Boycotting EA. Why? They suck, even moreso since 2008.
Originally posted by Neo_Viper Just out of curiosity, who out of the virtual muscle flexing self proclaimed "hardcores" here have beaten all the heroic mode raid content in WoW?
They're far too busy trolololling forums and whining to do that! They'd rather complain than ever actually play a game! Are you kidding? If they wanted to play hardcore super elite games they'd just go back and play the games that popped their cherries that they won't shut up about.
or they can be jocking every released games nuttz patting the devs backs on releasing a game that last 6 months tell ftp.....
I'm far from patting any devs on the back, current or old...They all suck equally in their own ways, I've yet to find a game that has really made me all that happy.....They all have their strengths and weaknesses, and they for the most part all have evil money grubbing devs....Though I can respect that, I like money too.
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Originally posted by Neo_Viper Just out of curiosity, who out of the virtual muscle flexing self proclaimed "hardcores" here have beaten all the heroic mode raid content in WoW?
Here's where we disagree. You think a game's difficulty is defined by its hardest content. I think it's defined by its easiest content.
This doesn't make any sense at all. All various difficulty levels give is choices. The most difficult content defines the final difficulty of the game.
The simple fact that people don't do the most difficult content in a game shows that they are not as "hardcore" as they pretend to be.
Originally posted by Neo_Viper Just out of curiosity, who out of the virtual muscle flexing self proclaimed "hardcores" here have beaten all the heroic mode raid content in WoW?
Here's where we disagree. You think a game's difficulty is defined by its hardest content. I think it's defined by its easiest content.
This doesn't make any sense at all. All various difficulty levels give is choices. The most difficult content defines the final difficulty of the game.
The simple fact that people don't do the most difficult content in a game shows that they are not as "hardcore" as they pretend to be.
And what game is actually "hard"? The hardest thing that led me to quit WoW was that finding good players to play with was hard. What is starting to make me want to leave GW2 is the fact that good players are rare, though in a game that is so shallow that the only tactic is stacking and where the devs only look for ways to get people to buy their gems, I may be asking for too much, so I still play because it costs nothing to play and laughing at bad players is always fun.
Boycotting EA. Why? They suck, even moreso since 2008.
I think that a lot of casual players don't think they are casual, so they try mmorpg games and end up hopping from game to game trying to find one that works for them. I don't think in general any MMORPG is designed to be casual friendly, they take a long time, and a lot of devotion to getting what you want in them, or just doing general things in MMO's take quite a bit longer than a match of Call of Duty or a round of a Football game.
Originally posted by Neo_Viper Just out of curiosity, who out of the virtual muscle flexing self proclaimed "hardcores" here have beaten all the heroic mode raid content in WoW?
Here's where we disagree. You think a game's difficulty is defined by its hardest content. I think it's defined by its easiest content.
This doesn't make any sense at all. All various difficulty levels give is choices. The most difficult content defines the final difficulty of the game.
The simple fact that people don't do the most difficult content in a game shows that they are not as "hardcore" as they pretend to be.
And what game is actually "hard"? The hardest thing that led me to quit WoW was that finding good players to play with was hard.
Yet the "top" guilds beat the hardest heroic raids on every WoW server. Maybe you didn't search hard enough, or maybe your skill isn't as great as you seem to think it is? Maybe it is those good players who are laughing at you?
@OP: Sorry to burst your bubble but you really should take a good look at the latest gamer demographics. The average age of today's gamers is 30 years and shifting towards 35. 68% of gamers are 18 or older. Casuals are the majority now and the hardcore ones just the vocal minority, whether you like it or not.
Originally posted by Panther2103 I think that a lot of casual players don't think they are casual, so they try mmorpg games and end up hopping from game to game trying to find one that works for them. I don't think in general any MMORPG is designed to be casual friendly, they take a long time, and a lot of devotion to getting what you want in them, or just doing general things in MMO's take quite a bit longer than a match of Call of Duty or a round of a Football game.
A lot think they are "hardcore" when they are not, too. The true "hardcores" are found playing the games and beating the hardest content of them, and not crying on forums that nothing is "hardcore" anymore.
Originally posted by Burdoc101 ...people love variety.
I agree with that, and think today's MMORPGs are sorely lacking in variety. Nothing typifying this more than the class based, on rails themepark. Why can't we have a game that offers something for both the hardcore and the casual elements? But I'll answer my own question here and say that I think most players these days just don't get concepts like not being able (guaranteed) to 'win'. Or not having an endgame. Or having to figure out what to do on your own, rather than just being taken along for a ride in an interactive movie.
Sadly, I don't think the MMORPG genre has much to offer true gamers anymore. Nor likely will in the future either.
Originally posted by Neo_Viper Just out of curiosity, who out of the virtual muscle flexing self proclaimed "hardcores" here have beaten all the heroic mode raid content in WoW?
They're far too busy trolololling forums and whining to do that! They'd rather complain than ever actually play a game! Are you kidding? If they wanted to play hardcore super elite games they'd just go back and play the games that popped their cherries that they won't shut up about.
or they can be jocking every released games nuttz patting the devs backs on releasing a game that last 6 months tell ftp.....
I'm far from patting any devs on the back, current or old...They all suck equally in their own ways, I've yet to find a game that has really made me all that happy.....They all have their strengths and weaknesses, and they for the most part all have evil money grubbing devs....Though I can respect that, I like money too.
Hehe, wasnt directed at you just a general statement. To be honest people can make what ever game they wish to finance and make. But im not waist money on simple/casual games myself. I just log on here for kicks =P
Originally posted by Panther2103 I think that a lot of casual players don't think they are casual, so they try mmorpg games and end up hopping from game to game trying to find one that works for them. I don't think in general any MMORPG is designed to be casual friendly, they take a long time, and a lot of devotion to getting what you want in them, or just doing general things in MMO's take quite a bit longer than a match of Call of Duty or a round of a Football game.
A lot think they are "hardcore" when they are not, too. The true "hardcores" are found playing the games and beating the hardest content of them, and not crying on forums that nothing is "hardcore" anymore.
Hahaha
You guys crack me up.....
I think you'll find that so called "Hardcore's" are beating a hell of a lot of meat to go along with that video game content.
Okay, where are people getting that it was difficult to hit max level in EQ? Hate to break it to you folks, but the only difficult thing about it was not throwing the disc into the garbage after grinding for 6-8 hours to fill half (or less) of your XP bar only to have most or all of your progress erased because your internet went belly-up, causing your character to die
People routinely mistake 'time-consuming' activities for 'challenging' ones, and it's getting rather old. Not to mention that the majority of the 'challenge' in EQ to begin with was due to extremely unfair and draconian game systems which have thankfully been improved upon.
One final thing: Loyalty is all well and good, but it doesn't pay for bandwidth, server maintenance, building rent & maintenance, content development, advertising, and of course the salaries of all the people necessary to make the aforementioned possible in the first place. If we lived in 'happy sunshine DrCokePepsi bizarro world' where everything was powered by sunshine and unicorn flatulence, loyalty would be enough. Unfortunately we live in the real world, where money is necessary for a great deal of things.
Try paying your rent / mortgage with 'loyalty' next month, then come back and tell us how it went.
I agree with the OP, but you have to understand, you see, the producers need the hardcores to keep the casuals, and the hardcores are so dedicated they will bend over and take it anyway the producers give it, being catering to the casuals, there are more casual gamers than hardcore probably 1 hardcore to 100 casuals, so if they cater to casuals whom are encouraged by the hardcore, they have the funding to keep satisfying the hardcore just enough to keep them sub'd to their game, and thus keeping the casual (or the cash crop) coming in.
If you want to fight this, dont play the bullshit games, find another hobby, i like to go fishing, or kayaking, play some baseball, by doing this these companies fail and are done within a year or so, then the casuals will begin to understand, that convenience isnt a good thing, and the only things worth anything are the things that require hard work and dedication to achieve, it is just a game but the beauty of these games are what you can achieve over the span of a decade...not 1 month. Eventually the market will rot out, and then a bright little light will shine and that will be the next big hit bringing in serious cheddar.
Okay, where are people getting that it was difficult to hit max level in EQ? Hate to break it to you folks, but the only difficult thing about it was not throwing the disc into the garbage after grinding for 6-8 hours to fill half (or less) of your XP bar only to have most or all of your progress erased because your internet went belly-up, causing your character to die
People routinely mistake 'time-consuming' activities for 'challenging' ones, and it's getting rather old. Not to mention that the majority of the 'challenge' in EQ to begin with was due to extremely unfair and draconian game systems which have thankfully been improved upon.
One final thing: Loyalty is all well and good, but it doesn't pay for bandwidth, server maintenance, building rent & maintenance, content development, advertising, and of course the salaries of all the people necessary to make the aforementioned possible in the first place. If we lived in 'happy sunshine DrCokePepsi bizarro world' where everything was powered by sunshine and unicorn flatulence, loyalty would be enough. Unfortunately we live in the real world, where money is necessary for a great deal of things.
Try paying your rent / mortgage with 'loyalty' next month, then come back and tell us how it went.
lol then mmorpg devs should be making phone games because their games are not working out....
Originally posted by Panther2103 I think that a lot of casual players don't think they are casual, so they try mmorpg games and end up hopping from game to game trying to find one that works for them. I don't think in general any MMORPG is designed to be casual friendly, they take a long time, and a lot of devotion to getting what you want in them, or just doing general things in MMO's take quite a bit longer than a match of Call of Duty or a round of a Football game.
A lot think they are "hardcore" when they are not, too. The true "hardcores" are found playing the games and beating the hardest content of them, and not crying on forums that nothing is "hardcore" anymore.
One of the most difficult and "hardcore" games ever, SC2, also has a very vocal community that loves whining on forums.
Originally posted by Neo_Viper Just out of curiosity, who out of the virtual muscle flexing self proclaimed "hardcores" here have beaten all the heroic mode raid content in WoW?
Here's where we disagree. You think a game's difficulty is defined by its hardest content. I think it's defined by its easiest content.
This doesn't make any sense at all. All various difficulty levels give is choices. The most difficult content defines the final difficulty of the game.
The simple fact that people don't do the most difficult content in a game shows that they are not as "hardcore" as they pretend to be.
And what game is actually "hard"? The hardest thing that led me to quit WoW was that finding good players to play with was hard.
Yet the "top" guilds beat the hardest heroic raids on every WoW server. Maybe you didn't search hard enough, or maybe your skill isn't as great as you seem to think it is? Maybe it is those good players who are laughing at you?
I quit 3 top guids on 2 different servers because they didn't try achieves fast enough and we're too slow to learn fights, or required too much contribution/time and the 3rd one is actually because Blizz was too slow to update the game so I just quit it forever. So that's not the issue. I also quit a 2nd-best because I caused three wipes in a row and in my mind that should be an auto-gkick for anyone, no exception. I don't own MoP though so I cant talk about recent raids.
Essentially, if you have 1/2 a brain and can pass highschool quizzes you can do a WoW fight. It's not really dfiferent, think of it as a silly dance where you have to be at the right place at the right time where you have to move your arms and make retard faces, except in WoW you just press buttons on a keyboard and try to stay awake.
Boycotting EA. Why? They suck, even moreso since 2008.
Obviously I agree with OP. It's not that we just want our oldschool games back, it's that this genre is naturally the best fit for those games. The themepark shift has been one that has taken the genre AWAY from the MMO part of MMORPG and more towards single player or co-op content.
Comments
I'm pretty sure most people here don't know anything about WoW past Raid Finder.
1, Are "today's mmorpg's based on the principles of "sandbox"?
2, Are today's mmorpg's, at least those on the market at the moment, made to be open-world with heavy character development with weight on community involvement?
3, Are today's MMorpg's social games?
If the answer is "no" then I would say that MMORPG'S are no longer these things and your initial response is now incorrect.
Though quite frankly I would argue that they are still social.
I'd also argue that your list really doesn't speak to the idea of casual as opposed to hardcore because casual players could easily want a sandbox game that has involved character development and heavy community involvement making them social games.
They will just want to be able to play them and get things done in shorter time periods.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I think many developers, and certainly most publishers would vehemently disagree with you. Nobody wants to borrow millions of dollars to create a beautiful, unique snowflake that doesn't sell.
I use my poop socks twice before I change them
Is that "Hardcore" enough for ya?
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
Actually WOW was pretty damn difficult in its early years. Vanilla WOW - AQ and Naxx were extremely hard. I am sure that most of these badass hardcore players haven't even been to any of these raids. Also Sunwell. Nuff said. WoW back in the day was not so casual friendly. It took ages to get to max level (I think I needed 2-3 months to get to level 60 and was playing only 1 char) and the grind at max level was crazy. But it was fun.
Long story short: WoW was the best MMO ever. The crap that followed was just that. Crap. The games before WoW were crap too (for me). EQ was the most boring game I've ever played. UO at least was somewhat fun
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
Here's where we disagree. You think a game's difficulty is defined by its hardest content. I think it's defined by its easiest content.
If you are used to Wow's themeparkness and fast leveling, and I assure you max level in two months is fast; then of course you would find EQ boring. For the same reason, WoW poses no challenge and hence offers no appeal to most EQ players.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
No he has a point when he says MMORPGs try to cater to more than 50 000 people and shoot for the 4 950 000 others. Oh wait, it actually makes sense for business. My opinion is that those who label themselves as "hardcore gamers" really have nothing of value in their lives to go after, not even money, so it is futile to try and cater to them.
Boycotting EA. Why? They suck, even moreso since 2008.
That being said, if you focus on the money the game is not going to meet the expectations of the playerbase and you won't get money for your pile of junk either. So developers should get a hint and start focusing on quality instead of what rakes in money.
Boycotting EA. Why? They suck, even moreso since 2008.
I'm far from patting any devs on the back, current or old...They all suck equally in their own ways, I've yet to find a game that has really made me all that happy.....They all have their strengths and weaknesses, and they for the most part all have evil money grubbing devs....Though I can respect that, I like money too.
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This doesn't make any sense at all. All various difficulty levels give is choices. The most difficult content defines the final difficulty of the game.
The simple fact that people don't do the most difficult content in a game shows that they are not as "hardcore" as they pretend to be.
My computer is better than yours.
And what game is actually "hard"? The hardest thing that led me to quit WoW was that finding good players to play with was hard. What is starting to make me want to leave GW2 is the fact that good players are rare, though in a game that is so shallow that the only tactic is stacking and where the devs only look for ways to get people to buy their gems, I may be asking for too much, so I still play because it costs nothing to play and laughing at bad players is always fun.
Boycotting EA. Why? They suck, even moreso since 2008.
Yet the "top" guilds beat the hardest heroic raids on every WoW server. Maybe you didn't search hard enough, or maybe your skill isn't as great as you seem to think it is? Maybe it is those good players who are laughing at you?
My computer is better than yours.
These forums have turned in to a Glen Beck show. Just post the most wild and inflammatory thing you possibly can to get attention.
Sad part is it works every time and real discussions go no where.
@OP: Sorry to burst your bubble but you really should take a good look at the latest gamer demographics. The average age of today's gamers is 30 years and shifting towards 35. 68% of gamers are 18 or older. Casuals are the majority now and the hardcore ones just the vocal minority, whether you like it or not.
Here are some figures for you to contemplate on: http://www.theesa.com/facts/pdfs/ESA_EF_2013.pdf
A lot think they are "hardcore" when they are not, too. The true "hardcores" are found playing the games and beating the hardest content of them, and not crying on forums that nothing is "hardcore" anymore.
My computer is better than yours.
I agree with that, and think today's MMORPGs are sorely lacking in variety. Nothing typifying this more than the class based, on rails themepark. Why can't we have a game that offers something for both the hardcore and the casual elements? But I'll answer my own question here and say that I think most players these days just don't get concepts like not being able (guaranteed) to 'win'. Or not having an endgame. Or having to figure out what to do on your own, rather than just being taken along for a ride in an interactive movie.
Sadly, I don't think the MMORPG genre has much to offer true gamers anymore. Nor likely will in the future either.
Hehe, wasnt directed at you just a general statement. To be honest people can make what ever game they wish to finance and make. But im not waist money on simple/casual games myself. I just log on here for kicks =P
Hahaha
You guys crack me up.....
I think you'll find that so called "Hardcore's" are beating a hell of a lot of meat to go along with that video game content.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
Okay, where are people getting that it was difficult to hit max level in EQ? Hate to break it to you folks, but the only difficult thing about it was not throwing the disc into the garbage after grinding for 6-8 hours to fill half (or less) of your XP bar only to have most or all of your progress erased because your internet went belly-up, causing your character to die
People routinely mistake 'time-consuming' activities for 'challenging' ones, and it's getting rather old. Not to mention that the majority of the 'challenge' in EQ to begin with was due to extremely unfair and draconian game systems which have thankfully been improved upon.
One final thing: Loyalty is all well and good, but it doesn't pay for bandwidth, server maintenance, building rent & maintenance, content development, advertising, and of course the salaries of all the people necessary to make the aforementioned possible in the first place. If we lived in 'happy sunshine DrCokePepsi bizarro world' where everything was powered by sunshine and unicorn flatulence, loyalty would be enough. Unfortunately we live in the real world, where money is necessary for a great deal of things.
Try paying your rent / mortgage with 'loyalty' next month, then come back and tell us how it went.
I agree with the OP, but you have to understand, you see, the producers need the hardcores to keep the casuals, and the hardcores are so dedicated they will bend over and take it anyway the producers give it, being catering to the casuals, there are more casual gamers than hardcore probably 1 hardcore to 100 casuals, so if they cater to casuals whom are encouraged by the hardcore, they have the funding to keep satisfying the hardcore just enough to keep them sub'd to their game, and thus keeping the casual (or the cash crop) coming in.
If you want to fight this, dont play the bullshit games, find another hobby, i like to go fishing, or kayaking, play some baseball, by doing this these companies fail and are done within a year or so, then the casuals will begin to understand, that convenience isnt a good thing, and the only things worth anything are the things that require hard work and dedication to achieve, it is just a game but the beauty of these games are what you can achieve over the span of a decade...not 1 month. Eventually the market will rot out, and then a bright little light will shine and that will be the next big hit bringing in serious cheddar.
lol then mmorpg devs should be making phone games because their games are not working out....
One of the most difficult and "hardcore" games ever, SC2, also has a very vocal community that loves whining on forums.
I quit 3 top guids on 2 different servers because they didn't try achieves fast enough and we're too slow to learn fights, or required too much contribution/time and the 3rd one is actually because Blizz was too slow to update the game so I just quit it forever. So that's not the issue. I also quit a 2nd-best because I caused three wipes in a row and in my mind that should be an auto-gkick for anyone, no exception. I don't own MoP though so I cant talk about recent raids.
Essentially, if you have 1/2 a brain and can pass highschool quizzes you can do a WoW fight. It's not really dfiferent, think of it as a silly dance where you have to be at the right place at the right time where you have to move your arms and make retard faces, except in WoW you just press buttons on a keyboard and try to stay awake.
Boycotting EA. Why? They suck, even moreso since 2008.
Obviously I agree with OP. It's not that we just want our oldschool games back, it's that this genre is naturally the best fit for those games. The themepark shift has been one that has taken the genre AWAY from the MMO part of MMORPG and more towards single player or co-op content.