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MMO developers steer too far into casual friendly

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  • david361107david361107 chattanooga, TNPosts: 279Member
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by ThomasN7
     

    How is that fail ? 

    Because WoW is the epitome of "casual friendly". Even at launch that was the whole idea. to mitigate or remove the things that took "a long time", that made previous games difficult.

    WoW was so easy at launch, so casual friendly, removing so many things that made other games "trying" that to use it as an icon of "non casual friendly" almost turns your post into a troll post.

    You didn't lose a lot of xp at death, you didn't drop items or have your body looted, leveling was fast compared to other games that came before (in Lineage 2 it took me 2 weeks i extremely hardcore playing just to get to level 20. And that was all grind).

     

    I think you need to re-evaluate your stance.

    I was there at launch and your statements here are very wrong. Wow leveling was much slower than it is today or what other mmo's are today. It didn't give you little circles to show you where to go, dungeons and raid were a lot harder than they are today, even on hard mode. Just don't think you played Vanilla wow if you are making statements like this, they are just wrong dude, sorry.

     

    Peace

    Lascer

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by david361107
    Originally posted by Sovrath Originally posted by ThomasN7  
    How is that fail ? 
    Because WoW is the epitome of "casual friendly". Even at launch that was the whole idea. to mitigate or remove the things that took "a long time", that made previous games difficult. WoW was so easy at launch, so casual friendly, removing so many things that made other games "trying" that to use it as an icon of "non casual friendly" almost turns your post into a troll post. You didn't lose a lot of xp at death, you didn't drop items or have your body looted, leveling was fast compared to other games that came before (in Lineage 2 it took me 2 weeks i extremely hardcore playing just to get to level 20. And that was all grind).   I think you need to re-evaluate your stance.
    I was there at launch and your statements here are very wrong. Wow leveling was much slower than it is today or what other mmo's are today. It didn't give you little circles to show you where to go, dungeons and raid were a lot harder than they are today, even on hard mode. Just don't think you played Vanilla wow if you are making statements like this, they are just wrong dude, sorry.

     

    Peace

    Lascer




    It's all relative. WoW's leveling, compared to the games that released before and around the time that WoW released was 'easy mode'. WoW's Vanilla leveling, compared to games that have released recently would be pretty time intensive, "hard core" even.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer ChairPosts: 5,596Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by lizardbones

     


    Originally posted by david361107

    Originally posted by Sovrath

    Originally posted by ThomasN7

     
    How is that fail ? 
    Because WoW is the epitome of "casual friendly". Even at launch that was the whole idea. to mitigate or remove the things that took "a long time", that made previous games difficult. WoW was so easy at launch, so casual friendly, removing so many things that made other games "trying" that to use it as an icon of "non casual friendly" almost turns your post into a troll post. You didn't lose a lot of xp at death, you didn't drop items or have your body looted, leveling was fast compared to other games that came before (in Lineage 2 it took me 2 weeks i extremely hardcore playing just to get to level 20. And that was all grind).   I think you need to re-evaluate your stance.
    I was there at launch and your statements here are very wrong. Wow leveling was much slower than it is today or what other mmo's are today. It didn't give you little circles to show you where to go, dungeons and raid were a lot harder than they are today, even on hard mode. Just don't think you played Vanilla wow if you are making statements like this, they are just wrong dude, sorry.

     

     

    Peace

    Lascer



    It's all relative. WoW's leveling, compared to the games that released before and around the time that WoW released was 'easy mode'. WoW's Vanilla leveling, compared to games that have released recently would be pretty time intensive, "hard core" even.

     

    Old school games did go a bit too far in many aspects of inconvenience that were frankly borderline self punishment in some cases. Blizz did find a happy medium in WoW 1.x and 2.x. But then after 3.x Blizz and everyone else just kept going too far away from that early model and now we find games that are not rewarding.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by lizardbones


    It's all relative. WoW's leveling, compared to the games that released before and around the time that WoW released was 'easy mode'. WoW's Vanilla leveling, compared to games that have released recently would be pretty time intensive, "hard core" even.

     

    Easy? I would say it is more enjoyable, less tedious.

    EQ leveling is pretty easy. You camp the same mob again and again. It is just slow and tedious. The combat is not that hard with actually less mechanics than that in WOW.

    I don't consider asking me to take 1 week instead of 1 day to go up a level "harder".

  • Clypto75Clypto75 Nevada, MOPosts: 68Member

    Old school games did go a bit too far in many aspects of inconvenience that were frankly borderline self punishment in some cases. Blizz did find a happy medium in WoW 1.x and 2.x. But then after 3.x Blizz and everyone else just kept going too far away from that early model and now we find games that are not rewarding.

     

    Agreed. Cant stand the WoW bashing yet praises for other games that cant even stay open for more then 6 months. Different folks, different strokes - I also agree with the OP but probably would edit one or two games they mentioned. All in all, a lot of hand holding quest, weak story line, and cash grabs are the issues with yesterdays/todays games in general imho. 

    I am hoping for a change in the gaming industry soon, doubtful though. 

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Clypto75

    I am hoping for a change in the gaming industry soon, doubtful though. 

    I am not. They are producing lots of games that i enjoy. Just recently, games that i enjoy:

    - Splinter Cell blacklist ... great stealth game with a bit of RPG elements

    - Van Helsing ... cute indie ARPG

    - The ROOM ... absolutely gorgeous puzzle game that requires thinking

    - Gone Home ... no combat, little puzzle, no challenge, but amazing first person indie drama game. Who says challenge is always required for a fun game.

    There are many more ....

     

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by lizardbones It's all relative. WoW's leveling, compared to the games that released before and around the time that WoW released was 'easy mode'. WoW's Vanilla leveling, compared to games that have released recently would be pretty time intensive, "hard core" even.  
    Easy? I would say it is more enjoyable, less tedious.

    EQ leveling is pretty easy. You camp the same mob again and again. It is just slow and tedious. The combat is not that hard with actually less mechanics than that in WOW.

    I don't consider asking me to take 1 week instead of 1 day to go up a level "harder".




    I see what you're saying, but most people understand what I'm saying when I use the terms "easy" or "harder" in regards to leveling.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by lizardbones

     


    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Originally posted by lizardbones It's all relative. WoW's leveling, compared to the games that released before and around the time that WoW released was 'easy mode'. WoW's Vanilla leveling, compared to games that have released recently would be pretty time intensive, "hard core" even.  
    Easy? I would say it is more enjoyable, less tedious.

     

    EQ leveling is pretty easy. You camp the same mob again and again. It is just slow and tedious. The combat is not that hard with actually less mechanics than that in WOW.

    I don't consider asking me to take 1 week instead of 1 day to go up a level "harder".



    I see what you're saying, but most people understand what I'm saying when I use the terms "easy" or "harder" in regards to leveling.

     

    Sure. But i can disagree with that characterization, based on my own experiences. EQ leveling is not "harder" than WOW (to me). It is just more tedious, less fun, and in fact easier (since you fight the same mob more than in WOW) than WOW (to me of course).

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer ChairPosts: 5,596Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by lizardbones

     


    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Originally posted by lizardbones It's all relative. WoW's leveling, compared to the games that released before and around the time that WoW released was 'easy mode'. WoW's Vanilla leveling, compared to games that have released recently would be pretty time intensive, "hard core" even.  
    Easy? I would say it is more enjoyable, less tedious.

     

    EQ leveling is pretty easy. You camp the same mob again and again. It is just slow and tedious. The combat is not that hard with actually less mechanics than that in WOW.

    I don't consider asking me to take 1 week instead of 1 day to go up a level "harder".



    I see what you're saying, but most people understand what I'm saying when I use the terms "easy" or "harder" in regards to leveling.

     

    Sure. But i can disagree with that characterization, based on my own experiences. EQ leveling is not "harder" than WOW (to me). It is just more tedious, less fun, and in fact easier (since you fight the same mob more than in WOW) than WOW (to me of course).

    Yes, but the personal reward factor is diminished in the game that takes a day. Well, actually, a day for a level depending on the level is not unreasonable considering today's games a level even close to cap can be done in an hour or 2 if not less.

    The point is, the more effort you put into obtaining the level, the more valuable it becomes. However, the trade off here is at some point, the pendulum swings the other way and the work overshadows the payoff. The key is to find the perfect balance. To make a player work to get something. Make it difficult enough so they feel they have accomplished something but not so hard as to make them say "it's not worth it".

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,461Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by david361107
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by ThomasN7
     

    How is that fail ? 

    Because WoW is the epitome of "casual friendly". Even at launch that was the whole idea. to mitigate or remove the things that took "a long time", that made previous games difficult.

    WoW was so easy at launch, so casual friendly, removing so many things that made other games "trying" that to use it as an icon of "non casual friendly" almost turns your post into a troll post.

    You didn't lose a lot of xp at death, you didn't drop items or have your body looted, leveling was fast compared to other games that came before (in Lineage 2 it took me 2 weeks i extremely hardcore playing just to get to level 20. And that was all grind).

     

    I think you need to re-evaluate your stance.

    I was there at launch and your statements here are very wrong. Wow leveling was much slower than it is today or what other mmo's are today. It didn't give you little circles to show you where to go, dungeons and raid were a lot harder than they are today, even on hard mode. Just don't think you played Vanilla wow if you are making statements like this, they are just wrong dude, sorry.

     

    Peace

    Lascer

    Actually my statements are "very right".

    You are trying to compare today's wow with launch wow and then saying that I'm using "now wow" (lol funny) as the basis for my statement.

    I was there are launch as well though I didn't stick around for long as I didn't like the game.

    I'm am not talking about the "ease of leveling now as compared to launch.

    My first mmo, and the one I was playing when I was invited to wow beta was lineage 2.

    Using that as a comparison, WoW was a walk in the park, leveling eons easier.

    The death penalty was running. Yeah "running". "oh my how horrid". I can say the leveling was magnitudes easier than Lineage 2. I can't speak to EQ but from what I read it seems the same could be said.

    Keep in mind the developers themselves said that WoW was developed with the idea that players would have an ease of play when it came to finding quests, doing quests, and that WoW would be less time consuming than previous games.

    That was the whole premise for their design.

    compare that to games like EQ or Lineage 2 where leveling was a lot longer, you sometimes didn't know where you had to go for a quest (if you even had quests) rewards weren't necessarily clear in Lineage 2 and you often got a pittance of money and nothing else.

    WoW was a very easy game tor players to get into, to level, and it did guide them from one area to another. It was very casual friendly and therefore casual players were eventually drawn to it.

    You seem to make the mistkae that "casual player" means someone who wants "easy mode". Casual players just don't have a lot of time. WoW eliminated many time sinks and made it "easier" (note, not easy mode) for them to play the game.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by lizardbones

     


    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Originally posted by lizardbones It's all relative. WoW's leveling, compared to the games that released before and around the time that WoW released was 'easy mode'. WoW's Vanilla leveling, compared to games that have released recently would be pretty time intensive, "hard core" even.  
    Easy? I would say it is more enjoyable, less tedious.

     

    EQ leveling is pretty easy. You camp the same mob again and again. It is just slow and tedious. The combat is not that hard with actually less mechanics than that in WOW.

    I don't consider asking me to take 1 week instead of 1 day to go up a level "harder".



    I see what you're saying, but most people understand what I'm saying when I use the terms "easy" or "harder" in regards to leveling.

     

    Sure. But i can disagree with that characterization, based on my own experiences. EQ leveling is not "harder" than WOW (to me). It is just more tedious, less fun, and in fact easier (since you fight the same mob more than in WOW) than WOW (to me of course).

    Yes, but the personal reward factor is diminished in the game that takes a day. Well, actually, a day for a level depending on the level is not unreasonable considering today's games a level even close to cap can be done in an hour or 2 if not less.

    The point is, the more effort you put into obtaining the level, the more valuable it becomes. However, the trade off here is at some point, the pendulum swings the other way and the work overshadows the payoff. The key is to find the perfect balance. To make a player work to get something. Make it difficult enough so they feel they have accomplished something but not so hard as to make them say "it's not worth it".

    Still, that does not excuse making a game "non-fun". Personally i won't play a game that is not fun to me.

    But again, you already raise the trade-off issue. It is obviously not wise to require a year of playing to raise one level or only require you to kill ONE mob (say 10 seconds). The question is what is the sweet spot .. and that differs from person to person.

     

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,672Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by lizardbones

     

    It's all relative. WoW's leveling, compared to the games that released before and around the time that WoW released was 'easy mode'. WoW's Vanilla leveling, compared to games that have released recently would be pretty time intensive, "hard core" even.

    Very good point. It's the reason it always seems odd to me when people point to "vanilla WOW" as hard mode before the [insert derogatory labels, sweeping generalization and negative stereotypes here] showed up.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,461Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by lizardbones

     

    It's all relative. WoW's leveling, compared to the games that released before and around the time that WoW released was 'easy mode'. WoW's Vanilla leveling, compared to games that have released recently would be pretty time intensive, "hard core" even.

    Very good point. It's the reason it always seems odd to me when people point to "vanilla WOW" as hard mode before the [insert derogatory labels, sweeping generalization and negative stereotypes here] showed up.

    Exactly!

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer ChairPosts: 5,596Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
     

    Still, that does not excuse making a game "non-fun". Personally i won't play a game that is not fun to me.

    But again, you already raise the trade-off issue. It is obviously not wise to require a year of playing to raise one level or only require you to kill ONE mob (say 10 seconds). The question is what is the sweet spot .. and that differs from person to person.

     

    By your own admission, your criteria for gaming is what ever you can find for free. (I am not criticizing you here, just stating what I have seen) I kinda think that runs a little counter to what you just said. To be clear, you look for the free game that is most fun, but I'd rather believe that if you could find free games elsewhere, the single player genre would be more attractive to you. Again, these are things you have said in other posts. If a game is less fun but free, you will go for that one.

    Now, how is that important to the point of the previous posts in the conversation? Because for you, the reward factor is also secondary to the cost factor. So for you, the fun/reward MUST be compressed into the limited time you personally will play said game. There is no long term commitment to you, so you don't want to see games that take more than a day to level no matter what the fun factor or reward factor would be. So there is an influence there in the way you play games.

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Originally posted by lizardbones  

    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Originally posted by lizardbones It's all relative. WoW's leveling, compared to the games that released before and around the time that WoW released was 'easy mode'. WoW's Vanilla leveling, compared to games that have released recently would be pretty time intensive, "hard core" even.  
    Easy? I would say it is more enjoyable, less tedious.   EQ leveling is pretty easy. You camp the same mob again and again. It is just slow and tedious. The combat is not that hard with actually less mechanics than that in WOW. I don't consider asking me to take 1 week instead of 1 day to go up a level "harder".
    I see what you're saying, but most people understand what I'm saying when I use the terms "easy" or "harder" in regards to leveling.  
    Sure. But i can disagree with that characterization, based on my own experiences. EQ leveling is not "harder" than WOW (to me). It is just more tedious, less fun, and in fact easier (since you fight the same mob more than in WOW) than WOW (to me of course).

    Well, yeah, and I even agree with you. MMORPGs in general really aren't "hard". But something being "harder" is a relative thing, even if the part that makes it "harder" or "easier" is just the number of times you have to kill the same centaur for their stupid hooves.

    **

    To put it another way, it's easier for you to play WoW than EQ, even if the thing that makes it easier has nothing to do with the difficulty level of the game.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    Originally posted by Holophonist
    Originally posted by Quirhid

    First of all, you seem to be getting hung up on the false premise that I think the idea of "watered down" is some absolute, binary state. Every game is to some degree watered down or not watered down. So I'm simply saying that because WoW is "huge" that it technically makes it watered down. I'm saying aside from things like polish, fixing bugs, etc, the way to increase your base is to water down your game.

     

    Second, it's nothing short of ABSURD to think that WoW is perfectly targeted towards an audience. No game is. You really think that each of the 8 million players shares the exact same set of preferences? You don't think that adding features that some people would like NECESSARILY make the game less attractive for others? Are you seriously trying to make the case that WoW targets a certain group perfectly?

     

    What exactly do you mean UO and SWG aren't more targeted, but the amount of people who are interested in them are few? That's what I'm saying. They're going after fewer people, so it's easier to serve those people more deeply. That doesn't mean every small game is better than any game that is larger, but that's why I said "holding most things constant" at the very beginning of this discussion. 

    No, I didn't expect being watered down is a binary state. No, I am not proposing WoW is perfectly targeted. However, I used an exaggeration because it seems to be really hard to get my message through to you. See if I can explain this a third way:

    WoW can be as targeted as UO or SWG. You cannot make assumptions whether a game is less targeted or more targeted based on size. WoW's niche is larger, that is why it is bigger. They have more people under their crosshair (see the picture above). And no, unlike what you propose, that doesn't necessarily mean they have a bigger crosshair.

    That is my point.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by lizardbones


    Well, yeah, and I even agree with you. MMORPGs in general really aren't "hard". But something being "harder" is a relative thing, even if the part that makes it "harder" or "easier" is just the number of times you have to kill the same centaur for their stupid hooves.

    **

    To put it another way, it's easier for you to play WoW than EQ, even if the thing that makes it easier has nothing to do with the difficulty level of the game.

     

    May be the word should be "more convenient" and not "easier"?

    After all, it is just semantics because i think we agree that EQ is not providing more challenging encounters when i am killing the same mob in the same trivial ways again, again, again, and again.

  • ArclanArclan Chicago, ILPosts: 1,494Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    .. EQ leveling is not "harder" than WOW (to me). It is just more tedious, less fun, and in fact easier (since you fight the same mob more than in WOW) than WOW (to me of course).


    So WoW is harder than EQ? Hmm then why exactly did WoW have a legion of twelve year olds and their Mom's doing quite well? I guess they were genius gamers. Wow is great; Blizzard is great; but consider the absurdity of your statement.

    Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
    In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by lizardbones Well, yeah, and I even agree with you. MMORPGs in general really aren't "hard". But something being "harder" is a relative thing, even if the part that makes it "harder" or "easier" is just the number of times you have to kill the same centaur for their stupid hooves. ** To put it another way, it's easier for you to play WoW than EQ, even if the thing that makes it easier has nothing to do with the difficulty level of the game.  
    May be the word should be "more convenient" and not "easier"?

    After all, it is just semantics because i think we agree that EQ is not providing more challenging encounters when i am killing the same mob in the same trivial ways again, again, again, and again.




    Yup. However you say it, it amounts to the same thing.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Arclan

     


    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    .. EQ leveling is not "harder" than WOW (to me). It is just more tedious, less fun, and in fact easier (since you fight the same mob more than in WOW) than WOW (to me of course).

     


    So WoW is harder than EQ? Hmm then why exactly did WoW have a legion of twelve year olds and their Mom's doing quite well? I guess they were genius gamers. Wow is great; Blizzard is great; but consider the absurdity of your statement.

    Leveling ... yeah. I did not say it is a lot harder. It is very easy to be harder than killing the same mob over again and again with teh same tactices. A little variation can do that.

    And yeah .. if you put the same twelve years old and their moms (oh yeah, there were moms i played with in EQ too) into EQ, and they would have no trouble leveling .. of course, they won't do it because it is too boring .. but challenging it was not.

     

  • GrumpyMel2GrumpyMel2 Catskills, NYPosts: 1,832Member

    Entering into the fray here..... I think people, especialy in the MMO context (where there is a good ring of truth to it), conflate the idea of "casual"/"easy" with time investment required or how quick it is to advance, etc. Possibly that's due to most people measuring thier performance or success in the game with level/gear advancement.

    I can understand where this idea comes from in terms of the MMO genre. However, how easy a game is to play is really an entirely distinct and seperate factor from how quickly it plays or how much time investment is involved or what level/rate of "advancement" exists.

    For example both Checkers and Chess (if timed) can be pretty quick games to play. They are also fairly easy games to learn the rulesets for but Chess (especialy if played against a master opponent) is an infinately "harder" game to play because of the possible number of permutations in strategy. Now if we played a match of "coin toss", best of a thousand, it might be a very slow game to play but laughably easy.

    My main complaint in terms of MMO Developers steering games too far toward "casual freindly" (I'm sympathetic with the OP in that regard) is not that I want them to slow down gameplay and add a bazillion hours to achieving anything but that I want them to make the actual game-play more challenging, more involved and more complex. More thought and strategy required.

    I could provide a small example of what I'm talking about from a MUD I played many years ago. In that game when you died after a certain time if not saved, all the items you had equiped would be lost. Furthermore, upon your death, whatever equipment you held in your hands would fall to the ground and could be picked up and USED by any mobs passing by. That was a mechanic I very much enjoyed. The enjoyment was NOT based on any desire to slow down gear aquisition or character advancement or put speed-bumps in questing/hunting, etc. The enjoyment was derived because it actualy added an interesting level of challenge to regular game-play. One had to get to downed characters and rescue them within a certain timer limit. One had to do so while facing monsters with more challenging and varied combat abilities then normal due to the fact they were utilizing the advanced weaponry (which could be anything) picked up from downed characters. One had to find and defeat those monsters to recover that weaponry. One had to do all this without being downed yourself....because that would only increase the amount of weaponry availble to monsters in the area and the amount of bodies that needed to be rescued. It added a level of challenge to the game that wouldn't have existed without the mechanic.

  • HolophonistHolophonist Pittsburgh, PAPosts: 2,086Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by Holophonist
    Originally posted by Quirhid

    First of all, you seem to be getting hung up on the false premise that I think the idea of "watered down" is some absolute, binary state. Every game is to some degree watered down or not watered down. So I'm simply saying that because WoW is "huge" that it technically makes it watered down. I'm saying aside from things like polish, fixing bugs, etc, the way to increase your base is to water down your game.

     

    Second, it's nothing short of ABSURD to think that WoW is perfectly targeted towards an audience. No game is. You really think that each of the 8 million players shares the exact same set of preferences? You don't think that adding features that some people would like NECESSARILY make the game less attractive for others? Are you seriously trying to make the case that WoW targets a certain group perfectly?

     

    What exactly do you mean UO and SWG aren't more targeted, but the amount of people who are interested in them are few? That's what I'm saying. They're going after fewer people, so it's easier to serve those people more deeply. That doesn't mean every small game is better than any game that is larger, but that's why I said "holding most things constant" at the very beginning of this discussion. 

    No, I didn't expect being watered down is a binary state. No, I am not proposing WoW is perfectly targeted. However, I used an exaggeration because it seems to be really hard to get my message through to you. See if I can explain this a third way:

    WoW can be as targeted as UO or SWG. You cannot make assumptions whether a game is less targeted or more targeted based on size. WoW's niche is larger, that is why it is bigger. They have more people under their crosshair (see the picture above). And no, unlike what you propose, that doesn't necessarily mean they have a bigger crosshair.

    That is my point.

    I get your point, I just don't think it has any relevance in reality especially when you're dealing with such large data sets. 

     

    Yes, I see your picture of people in a crosshair... I'm not sure what it's supposed to prove exactly. Because in the real world that's not how it works. Those people each have countless individual preferences and just because they're in that crosshair doesn't mean that crosshair is suiting them perfectly. They're not just static groups that have perfectly overlapping desires. That's why I say holding other things constant, to increase your playerbase you have to find less extreme versions of features so as not to piss anybody off. You have to ride the line between two opposing design decisions so as to try to include as many people as possible. 

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by GrumpyMel2

    My main complaint in terms of MMO Developers steering games too far toward "casual freindly" (I'm sympathetic with the OP in that regard) is not that I want them to slow down gameplay and add a bazillion hours to achieving anything but that I want them to make the actual game-play more challenging, more involved and more complex. More thought and strategy required.

     

     

    You are right. You don't need to slow down gameplay or make the game tedious to have challenging combat.

    And this is already done with difficulty sliders in instances. May be it should be more popular and more MMOs should adopt it, but you can't claim that it is not done.

    Example. LFR, normal & hard mode raid in WOW. hard mode is hard.

    Dungeon difficulties in DDO. Try to go solo with the highest one when you are starting. That is difficult.

     

  • chaintmchaintm Chicago, ILPosts: 972Member Common
    Originally posted by ThomasN7
    Originally posted by rbialo

    You may have a point but your choice of games as examples of failure invalidate your whole post.

    AoC or TsW has a good launch? No FC game has a good launch ever.
    Lotro was gone in 3 to 6 months?! Maybe so if you were born a year ago.
    I did not played many other games but I personally know ppl who still enjoy Aion or GW2 and they say those games are far from "having no staying power".

    Please take some time and read about the games you are calling before some one start making jokes of you.

    P.S.
    If it is just another attempt to say "Vanila WoW or bust" - thats a real fail.

    How is that fail ?  I bet the majority would agree it has been WoW or bust. Can the genre be great again ? Sure it can but not the path they have chosen. 

    break the mold and it can, see star citizen, 1mil subs and growing and the game isn't out yet. re-defining what an MMO will be for them at least. That's something for sure. Not your standard MMO party per-say but at least kickstarter and other sources are showing the communities are fed up and backing their money in projects they would like to see happen. Don't fret yet, good things on the horizon.

    "The monster created isn't by the company that makes the game, it's by the fans that make it something it never was"

  • yurilowell1983yurilowell1983 New York, NYPosts: 6Member
    MMOs aren't "hard." They can just be time consuming. If you have a lot of time, then you'll be able to do what you want, mostly.  If you want to be stronger, get higher level, spend time farming to get gear, etc. 
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