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[General Article] Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn: Review in Progress #3

2

Comments

  • RobbgobbRobbgobb Dallas, TXPosts: 453Member Uncommon

    If one is new to healing (me) understands the dps plus healing but it comes down to having rest of party working as a group following tank direction and tank keeping aggro because it can easily become the healer trying desperately to stay alive. 

     

    If one is new to tanking (me) understands have to mark and manage aggro but comes down to having to let dps die because can't chase around in circles the archer who has decided to blow his load on target 3.

     

    These are my experience in 4 man groups. I would hate to see 5 man. Surprisingly for me, I went to dps after finally getting a server I could actually join into every day. I don't mind the waits in the DF. I don't have the issues that I see most complain about. I keep seeing tanks that I am pretty sure have DPS mind frames as they only want to charge into one target and forget the rest. Have the archers who take aggro and run in circles which means I sit and wait. I don't chase them and feel very satisfied when they die. Have the casters who will sit in the AoEs of bosses to finish casting (Ifrit predictable locations and still had a thaum and conj sit at wall over and over casting) so wipe and start again. I like the game and might get frustrated but I know that I will live with it as I have fun.

  • ZoeMcCloskeyZoeMcCloskey Phoenix, AZPosts: 1,146Member Uncommon
    Fun read, finally got the game today, so hoping I get it all installed and tried out soon!

    image
  • sumdumguy1sumdumguy1 avondale, AZPosts: 962Member Uncommon
    I think sometimes its easy to forget we are playing a game.  Sometimes people treat this like a competition and they feel like they are losing money, or at least act that way.  If you are truly that stressed playing a game, maybe you need to take up another hobby.   And before you start raging saying he hasn't reached 50 yet, I have with my tank and working on my healer now.   This is supposed to fun first and foremost, its sad when one people ruin this aspect for others.
  • dreamscaperdreamscaper Somewhere, NCPosts: 1,582Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Aori

    People who say dungeons are easy.. which one are they?

    Tank: CC the triangle

    DPS1: tank them all

    DPS2: ya we don't need CC

    Healer: **** my life

    Tank: Don't stand in front

    DPS1: Then turn it around

    DPS2: Raise!

    Healer: **** my life

    Seriously this is very common..

     

     

    As a WHM, this is so true.

    <3

  • MahavishnuMahavishnu BerlinPosts: 336Member

    Wow! I just received a warning for "trolling" and my comment has been deleted. However, I just summed up what has been criticised by many players. The review in progress does not even touch on these issues:

    1. The first few steps into this game are full of irrelevant dialouges, boring quests and stupidly running around

    2. Heavy zoning and usage of invisible walls. This game is not for explorers.

    3. Players never mind and just rush to endlevel repeating fates over and over again.

     

    Advertising has us chasing cars and clothes, working jobs we hate so we can buy shit we don't need.

  • DrakynnDrakynn The Pas, MBPosts: 2,030Member
    Originally posted by dreamscaper
    Originally posted by Aori

    People who say dungeons are easy.. which one are they?

    Tank: CC the triangle

    DPS1: tank them all

    DPS2: ya we don't need CC

    Healer: **** my life

    Tank: Don't stand in front

    DPS1: Then turn it around

    DPS2: Raise!

    Healer: **** my life

    Seriously this is very common..

     

     

    As a WHM, this is so true.

    Common problem in all MMORPGs with the trilogy...those of us that play tanks and healers usually group with friends and don't PUG because we've all experienced dumb dps screwing things up,blaming and swearing at the tank and/or healer for not keeping them alive and then rage quitting wasting everyone's time.

  • grimfallgrimfall Missouri City, TXPosts: 1,155Member Uncommon

    "The reason behind this choice is the sheer number of players that choose to play as damage dealers as opposed to playing as a tank or as a healer. This is always the case in MMOs."

    The way to correct that design flaw is to make it so that single player PVE content is equally as difficult (or as easy) for the DPS classes and tank/healer classes.  That is the design flaw that needs to be fixed, not the group size.  Players play what is easiest.  They don't "like to play DPS" they like to play the classes that can handle solo content easiest.  Unfortunately developers always tune their games to make that for DPS classes, and then wonder why they need more tanks and healers.

  • BraindomeBraindome Posts: 764Member Uncommon

    IGN has beat you to reviewing the game, step it up MMORPG, geez:

    http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/09/11/final-fantasy-xiv-a-realm-reborn-review

  • Segun777Segun777 Jade Dynasty Correspondent Lemont, PAPosts: 97Member
    Originally posted by Aori

    People who say dungeons are easy.. which one are they?

    Tank: CC the triangle

    DPS1: tank them all

    DPS2: ya we don't need CC

    Healer: **** my life

    Tank: Don't stand in front

    DPS1: Then turn it around

    DPS2: Raise!

    Healer: **** my life

    Seriously this is very common..

     

    I know. FFXIV is one of the only games that forces people to party in dungeons and it shows. I played one PUG where the healer was pulling mobs and the DPS was aggroing up a storm. The tank wasn't great but he was trying. The healer was talking trash, whining trying to push the party faster than it could obviously take and then it all fell apart. While I have to give kudos to SE for trying to make party play more prevalent, its also caused the unintended side effect of making more parties go bust than I've ever seen before. Still this is early days, one hopes things settle down soon.

  • TelondarielTelondariel Ottawa, ONPosts: 1,001Member
    Originally posted by Tsumoro

    People do not like the responsibility of playing a tank or healer. Specifically because the hostility that has been adopted by MMO players. <mini snip>

    However the DPS mentality has carried over from over MMO's to this one. A lot of MMO solo players like DPS because they can divorce themselves from the other people in the game and get on and do their own stuff. As such I have many DPS join my group that FAIL to speak. I speak to these people, tell them what I would like them to do to ensure a nice swift and safe run but they do not read, they do not react. Only when we wipe do they react to which is toxic at the best of times. 

    Of course I remind them that I had spoke earlier informing what they needed to do, but of course, it isn't a DPS issue it's a 'Tank' or 'Healer' issue. I have literally had people say to me "You're the tank, it's your job to hold aggro, I just do the damage". It is almost like these DPS see me as an NPC there solely to gratify and progress their experience. 

    It's a frustrating process to be fair that the biggest difficulty I have with group content as a tank are other players. 

    <snip>

     

    I used to love playing healers.  Loved it.  

     

    You've scratched the surface of why I stopped playing them.  Unless you are in a stable, mature/respective, group (i.e. a guild group) chances are very high that you are going to have a less-than-favorable experience.  Year's worth of games that encourage steamroll vs tactics and thinking have generated a general environment that is toxic for some players.  

     

    If I find a great guild I may play one again.  I will never do it for PUGs.  

    image
  • TelondarielTelondariel Ottawa, ONPosts: 1,001Member
    Originally posted by Segun777
    Originally posted by Aori

    People who say dungeons are easy.. which one are they?

    Tank: CC the triangle

    DPS1: tank them all

    DPS2: ya we don't need CC

    Healer: **** my life

    Tank: Don't stand in front

    DPS1: Then turn it around

    DPS2: Raise!

    Healer: **** my life

    Seriously this is very common..

     

    I know. FFXIV is one of the only games that forces people to party in dungeons and it shows. I played one PUG where the healer was pulling mobs and the DPS was aggroing up a storm. The tank wasn't great but he was trying. The healer was talking trash, whining trying to push the party faster than it could obviously take and then it all fell apart. While I have to give kudos to SE for trying to make party play more prevalent, its also caused the unintended side effect of making more parties go bust than I've ever seen before. Still this is early days, one hopes things settle down soon.

    By designing content so that you need to be organized, the people described above will, by their own inabilities, not succeed at higher levels.  More likely than not, they will complain on the forums, quit, and go back to their comfort zone..or stick to PUGs.  Guilds that develop steady groups and work together will learn how to adapt.

    image
  • SelaineSelaine MaPosts: 9Member Uncommon

    Since i'm not max level, i haven't seen any raid contend so far, but...

    as a tank, i always have to worry about the number of tanks needed for raid encounters. Leveling and doing dungeon runs on max level is always fun, but when it comes to a full raid party, there is only one, max. two slots for tanks - out of 25 players, yay...

    image
  • ScotScot UKPosts: 5,751Member Uncommon

    Who would have thunk it? You wait a couple of weeks and the problems at launch go away, that's never happened before!

    The point about party size is a good one, the ratio of DD to other classes in most MMO's I know of has been about 6 to 2.

  • DanitaKusorDanitaKusor AdelaidePosts: 549Member Uncommon

    The problem with forcing people to group up (apart from the normal lack of tanks/healers) is that after a couple of months levelling zones are empty and you can never get a group for any of the group content. 

    The Enlightened take things Lightly

  • Jairoe03Jairoe03 Winthrop Harbor, ILPosts: 732Member

    I disagree with the article in that 4 players is great for small group encounters. It's easier to coordinate and makes each player's actions have more impact. I feel with 5, being a damage dealer, you generally didn't feel like you did that much in the group and the encounters I found harder to recover from when mistakes occur. I believe 4 is a much better for a group and has more of a natural flow and I feel players have an easier time picking up after each other.

  • SagaSolunaSagaSoluna BarcelonaPosts: 14Member

    I love how as a Tank, i am blamed for everything even if it is not my fault.

    For instance.

    There is some fights (Ifrit hard Mode just to name one) that absolutely REQUIRE that the tank stuns/interrupt a specific attack or mechanic, so that the party can actually survive.

    However, to make it actually challenging, they made it so that every time you use a stun move the boss builds up a resistance to it for a certain amount of time.

    But here are the Dragoons and other tanks spamming stun moves as part of their combos as often as they can, making the boss resist my attempts to stop that deadly spell/mechanic, and even after being told a couple times they continue to do so and then ask why did they die.

    Guess who gets then blamed when the bosses wtfpwn the party?

    And this is just an example, others being the mark ignoring, dps crazed DD or the healer that refuses to stop standing in the fire cause he wants to cast that one more spell before moving and then gets 1 shotted.

    All of this is the tank´s fault as well, and then they wonder why there´s so few of us around.

    We are busy playing with friends and guildies, so that we may enjoy a dungeon run without being called out for stuff we did not even do on a daily basis.

  • f0dell54f0dell54 Des Moines, IAPosts: 329Member
    Originally posted by mbd1968
    Originally posted by Shadanwolf
    I'm waiting for information on the addition of FRONTLINE.

    Anti-flea treatment, is that for the pet class?

    It's a calming potion for all types of beasts.

  • THEchad88THEchad88 great neck, NYPosts: 38Member
    Originally posted by Tsumoro

    People do not like the responsibility of playing a tank or healer. Specifically because the hostility that has been adopted by MMO players. I play a tank, rolling in as a Paladin currently tanking is fairly easy. 

    However the DPS mentality has carried over from over MMO's to this one. A lot of MMO solo players like DPS because they can divorce themselves from the other people in the game and get on and do their own stuff. As such I have many DPS join my group that FAIL to speak. I speak to these people, tell them what I would like them to do to ensure a nice swift and safe run but they do not read, they do not react. Only when we wipe do they react to which is toxic at the best of times. 

    Of course I remind them that I had spoke earlier informing what they needed to do, but of course, it isn't a DPS issue it's a 'Tank' or 'Healer' issue. I have literally had people say to me "You're the tank, it's your job to hold aggro, I just do the damage". It is almost like these DPS see me as an NPC there solely to gratify and progress their experience. 

    It's a frustrating process to be fair that the biggest difficulty I have with group content as a tank are other players. 

    Anyhow, to do with your party size issue. I actually think you're wrong on this in part. You see, Final Fantasy 14 has been the first MMO in a long time that encourages group play. Yes, the duty finder has a long wait for DPS (sometimes 40 mins for those guys). But, it's their fault in honest. 

    You see, the game has been designed to encourage people to interact with one another, sure the duty finder is there for those who want to go lone wolf. But the rewards of progression come to those who interact with the world and the other players. 

    When I play on my DPS job, I am not going to wait for 40 mins in a dungeon queue. I join the Duty finder and then I ask the company if anyone wishes to come. I also stand outside the dungeon and ask around because typically those coming to the dungeon are those who have just unlocked that part of their story and need to progress. 

    So, if I want to do Thousand Maws, I go to Quarry Mill I head up to the dungeon, I ask for for a group. Typically I always get someone join and if that person is a tank or healer you'll be surprised how quickly you move through that queue. 

    So, to say that it's a missed mark to not have a 5 man group because DPS out weigh tanks/healers is a cop out answer. It's a lazy answer in fact. The game is groomed to encourage interaction, you'll get the best out of it for that interaction. If you don't LIKE interacting with other players, then I beg the question as to why you're playing an MMO in the first instance. 

     

    I've witnessed a bunch of these same issues in other mmo's. The tanker or healer got blamed for a group wiping which wasn't always the case. Like in WoW especially. I agree that you increase your chance of finding a group by interacting with other players but some people want a bear minimum of that to be sure. Sometimes just playing with an actual person makes your experience more enjoyable even if you aren't talking. Personally I find it more enjoyable to interact but the fact is that there are those out there that don't like that and aren't obligated to. Just identify those you don't prefer and move on.

    One thing I remember from FF11 was that they had the same issues they appear to have now with regard to class alienation. I used to play a Monk in that game and found myself waiting longer to get groups. In a group to play heavy game that is where the trinity became a burden. The Healer / tanks always sought after and dps were secondary. Same as with this FF.

    In MMO's in general, isn't this precisely what has given rise to the hybridization that other MMO's go for?

    So how do you balance the 2? You go trinity setup and alienate some classes. You go hybrid and you don't alienate but now the roles aren't as defined. Which one becomes more fun? I think a solution still needs to be found for this. Same as with party size but to a lesser degree. Still there is room to be concerned sometimes.

    Depending which system of hybrid or trinity a dev goes with, they need to watch party size closely. Not to mention how the party size dynamic affects players.

    Anyone remember how many a guild split or crumbled in WoW when they introduced smaller man raid sizes from 40 to 25? I sure remember that. It's easier to add players to your party than to painfully cut players out because you can't have as many. Gotta be careful with going from more to less for group size.

    As for the armory I like how it appears to work. Half the time i'm manually organizing same armor / weapon items anyway so why not just have a system that does that. Good show Squenix!

     

     

  • Soki123Soki123 Kelowna, BCPosts: 1,477Member Uncommon
    To those that have said in raids, theres 1 maybe 2 slots for tanks in a raid, I say, no to that. My FC runs 1 PLD, and 2 sometimes 3 WARs( I m one of them). Sometimes I ll main tank, and sometimes the PLD does, depends on the situation. The healers in our raid, love the extra WARs around in case stuff goes in the toilet, plus our DPS aren t a bunch of morons.
  • icculus2112icculus2112 Richmond, VAPosts: 105Member
    Originally posted by Mahavishnu

    Wow! I just received a warning for "trolling" and my comment has been deleted. However, I just summed up what has been criticised by many players. The review in progress does not even touch on these issues:

    1. The first few steps into this game are full of irrelevant dialouges, boring quests and stupidly running around

    2. Heavy zoning and usage of invisible walls. This game is not for explorers.

    3. Players never mind and just rush to endlevel repeating fates over and over again.

     

    1.  The cities are cool.  I enjoyed this part very much.

    2.  You are somewhat right here, I dont mind zoning at all (and you have to keep in mind these servers hold 7500 which is quite large.  SWTOR and EvE are larger, but EvE is a completely different animal and SWTOR caps its people per area, which ffxiv does not). but make the zone lines big and not just little narrow paths.  Still the world feels right to me...it could be more open for sure but its kind of a minor gripe.

    3.  fate exp needs to be dropped by about 75% and dungeon completion exp for multiple attempts needs ot be increased greatly to balance out the two activities.  They should also add elite mob areas for group mob chaining for those who liked the ffxi style.  Fortunatley, for those of us who dont like to rush we dont have to do FATE grinding if we don't want and can just relax and level up slow

     

    Only number 3 is worthy of mentioning in a review.  The other 2 are pretty minor. 

  • dreamscaperdreamscaper Somewhere, NCPosts: 1,582Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Drakynn
    Originally posted by dreamscaper
    Originally posted by Aori

    People who say dungeons are easy.. which one are they?

    Tank: CC the triangle

    DPS1: tank them all

    DPS2: ya we don't need CC

    Healer: **** my life

    Tank: Don't stand in front

    DPS1: Then turn it around

    DPS2: Raise!

    Healer: **** my life

    Seriously this is very common..

     

     

    As a WHM, this is so true.

    Common problem in all MMORPGs with the trilogy...those of us that play tanks and healers usually group with friends and don't PUG because we've all experienced dumb dps screwing things up,blaming and swearing at the tank and/or healer for not keeping them alive and then rage quitting wasting everyone's time.

     

    Unfortunately, I'm the only person in my company who is level 50 so far (legacy, I had a massive start on them all), so I'm basically forced to use the Duty Finder for everything currently. I'm very much looking forward to being able to quit using the DF and instead playing with friends. They're much more pleasant to work with.

    <3

  • Argent6978Argent6978 Springfield, MOPosts: 3Member
    I really like a lot of the features of this game.  Particularly the armory system.  Though I do have one complaint about that particular feature.  I hang on to older gear for a time, sometimes because it is 100% spiritbonded and I want to make materia out of it.  But then, there's the possibility of destroying an item you need.  This is because there is no way to tell in your bags what items are part of a gearset.  I think they need to add this information in a tagline in the tooltip information for the gear.  This would prevent selling/destroying pieces of equipment that you actually need to keep, but aren't using at a particular moment.  Unfortunately, I destroyed a chest piece for my archer and had to downgrade back to another piece I still had. :(
  • RotakRotak Bothell, WAPosts: 29Member
    Worst customer support I have ever seen. I hsve a game breaking account issue and have waited for weeks for a response. Sounds like others are in the same boat. I have seen some rough releases but the lack of communication by SE is pathetic.
  • MisalignedMisaligned Redding, CAPosts: 44Member
    Originally posted by Tsumoro

    People do not like the responsibility of playing a tank or healer. Specifically because the hostility that has been adopted by MMO players. I play a tank, rolling in as a Paladin currently tanking is fairly easy. 

    However the DPS mentality has carried over from over MMO's to this one. A lot of MMO solo players like DPS because they can divorce themselves from the other people in the game and get on and do their own stuff. As such I have many DPS join my group that FAIL to speak. I speak to these people, tell them what I would like them to do to ensure a nice swift and safe run but they do not read, they do not react. Only when we wipe do they react to which is toxic at the best of times. 

    Of course I remind them that I had spoke earlier informing what they needed to do, but of course, it isn't a DPS issue it's a 'Tank' or 'Healer' issue. I have literally had people say to me "You're the tank, it's your job to hold aggro, I just do the damage". It is almost like these DPS see me as an NPC there solely to gratify and progress their experience. 

    It's a frustrating process to be fair that the biggest difficulty I have with group content as a tank are other players. 

    Anyhow, to do with your party size issue. I actually think you're wrong on this in part. You see, Final Fantasy 14 has been the first MMO in a long time that encourages group play. Yes, the duty finder has a long wait for DPS (sometimes 40 mins for those guys). But, it's their fault in honest. 

    You see, the game has been designed to encourage people to interact with one another, sure the duty finder is there for those who want to go lone wolf. But the rewards of progression come to those who interact with the world and the other players. 

    When I play on my DPS job, I am not going to wait for 40 mins in a dungeon queue. I join the Duty finder and then I ask the company if anyone wishes to come. I also stand outside the dungeon and ask around because typically those coming to the dungeon are those who have just unlocked that part of their story and need to progress. 

    So, if I want to do Thousand Maws, I go to Quarry Mill I head up to the dungeon, I ask for for a group. Typically I always get someone join and if that person is a tank or healer you'll be surprised how quickly you move through that queue. 

    So, to say that it's a missed mark to not have a 5 man group because DPS out weigh tanks/healers is a cop out answer. It's a lazy answer in fact. The game is groomed to encourage interaction, you'll get the best out of it for that interaction. If you don't LIKE interacting with other players, then I beg the question as to why you're playing an MMO in the first instance. 

     

    Excellent post.

  • TheocritusTheocritus Gary, INPosts: 3,731Member Uncommon
    People like DPS because there is no responsibility......If the group wipes its the healers or tanks fault, not because the DPS didnt do enough damage to take out some of the mobs quickly.
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