Lol and WoT and the others of their ilk have less than 10% of the players paying anything, ever. So the vast majority pay nothing. So who cares? The companies do not care about people (being as you have admitted yourself) who don't pay. You, as a class, don't matter.
When original EQ had 500k players, it had 500k people paying every month. And sold 500k boxes. How many boxes did lol or WoT sell?
Really? LoL has 30M+ players. 10% paying (YOUR words, not mine). That is 3M and 6x the number of paying customers in Eve.
Who cares? Every dev who is making a MOBA ... pretty much a lot of them. Who else cares? LoL players and other MOBA players ...which just LoL alone, outnumber WoW, and outnumber Eve 60 to 1.
So those old games had to be doing something right the the new games don't seem to be able to.
LoL is bigger than WoW. WoT is highly successful. GW2 sold 3.5M copies in a month.
Tell me .. which old MMO sold 3.5M copies in a month. In fact, it was claimed that GW2 is the fastest selling MMO.
Lol and WoT and the others of their ilk have less than 10% of the players paying anything, ever. So the vast majority pay nothing. So who cares? The companies do not care about people (being as you have admitted yourself) who don't pay. You, as a class, don't matter.
Is it that you don't understand how the business model works or don't want to understand how it works?
I understand perfectly the business strategy and underlying factors (perhaps better than most) of lowering the barrier to entry and getting people to play your game and such. If people can't/won't/aren't playing your game then they won't pay you anything. That much is true.
But what is also true is that we keep seeing reports that under 10% of F2P game players ever buy anything. Sure, they might some day, and keeping them in the game makes that possible, but the fact is that most of the time, they aren't. And many, like this Nuriussledon guy, never will (if you believe what he says). And those people, the companies don't care about and would frankly, rather have go away.
Again, you do not know how the business model works, no matter how superior you proclaim your knowledge of it is. Free players are potential conversions, group/guild/team mates for others, and they help to maintain a healthy server population. They are an integral part of the free to play business model, and they are needed for both the longevity and profitability of the game.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Lol and WoT and the others of their ilk have less than 10% of the players paying anything, ever. So the vast majority pay nothing. So who cares? The companies do not care about people (being as you have admitted yourself) who don't pay. You, as a class, don't matter.
When original EQ had 500k players, it had 500k people paying every month. And sold 500k boxes. How many boxes did lol or WoT sell?
Really? LoL has 30M+ players. 10% paying (YOUR words, not mine). That is 3M and 6x the number of paying customers in Eve.
Who cares? Every dev who is making a MOBA ... pretty much a lot of them. Who else cares? LoL players and other MOBA players ...which just LoL alone, outnumber WoW, and outnumber Eve 60 to 1.
The number I heard for LoL in an interview was under 4%, because of the model. The articles I have seen said "up to 10%" on a game to game basis. Which means for most it is much less.
And keep in mind, that is "players who ever pay anything".
How many of those meet or exceed a typical sub fee is anyone's guess. But likely not many do.
Sure, there are a lot of F2P players, but on a per user basis the revenue average is in the toilet. And that is actually going in the wrong direction, as the number of users (for "eveything" ) climb but overall revenue does not keep pace on that increase and the graph bends even further the wrong way.
It does not bode well at all for the MMORPG industry, even if the "everything" numbers are increasing.
And frankly, if you are a non-customer that is an avowed "pay nothing" player, who is going to care about your opinions and playing preferences anyway? This is a for profit industry, like all the others.
So those old games had to be doing something right the the new games don't seem to be able to.
LoL is bigger than WoW. WoT is highly successful. GW2 sold 3.5M copies in a month.
Tell me .. which old MMO sold 3.5M copies in a month. In fact, it was claimed that GW2 is the fastest selling MMO.
Lol and WoT and the others of their ilk have less than 10% of the players paying anything, ever. So the vast majority pay nothing. So who cares? The companies do not care about people (being as you have admitted yourself) who don't pay. You, as a class, don't matter.
Is it that you don't understand how the business model works or don't want to understand how it works?
I understand perfectly the business strategy and underlying factors (perhaps better than most) of lowering the barrier to entry and getting people to play your game and such. If people can't/won't/aren't playing your game then they won't pay you anything. That much is true.
But what is also true is that we keep seeing reports that under 10% of F2P game players ever buy anything. Sure, they might some day, and keeping them in the game makes that possible, but the fact is that most of the time, they aren't. And many, like this Nuriussledon guy, never will (if you believe what he says). And those people, the companies don't care about and would frankly, rather have go away.
Again, you do not know how the business model works, no matter how superior you proclaim your knowledge of it is. Free players are potential conversions, group/guild/team mates for others, and they help to maintain a healthy server population. They are an integral part of the free to play business model, and they are needed for both the longevity and profitability of the game.
People that pay nothing, do not directly help the profitability of anything, by definition.
They only indirectly benefit the game by "becoming content" and that is at the cost of the access and at the price of all the bad behaviors that are impossible to remove (bots, cheaters, gold sellers. etc.). And even then, the churn is so high on F2P games that even those costs are proportionally even higher.
It is only because the operating expenses of MMO are so low after initial production, that any profitability is even possible for F2P games. The model seems to be: run your game long enough and you'll see your money back. But they can not operate in defiance of economic and business principles forever.
And who is going to lay out full price to make a AAA MMO knowing they'll not see a bit of profit back for 4-5 years? Which is why we see the cheap crap Cryptic keeps putting out (for instance).
It is also why F2P from scratch MMOs are usually lacking in comparison to their P2P equivalent in almost every way.
The number I heard for LoL in an interview was under 4%, because of the model. The articles I have seen said "up to 10%" on a game to game basis. Which means for most it is much less.
And keep in mind, that is "players who ever pay anything".
How many of those meet or exceed a typical sub fee is anyone's guess. But likely not many do.
2012's posted profit for LoL was 150 million...
Guess that would be the reason why Tencent invested 400 million into buying out Riot Games.
Originally posted by Burntvet ]People that pay nothing, do not directly help the profitability of anything, by definition.
They only indirectly benefit the game by "becoming content" and that is at the cost of the access and at the price of all the bad behaviors that are impossible to remove (bots, cheaters, gold sellers. etc.). And even then, the churn is so high on F2P games that even those costs are proportionally even higher.
It is only because the operating expenses of MMO are so low after initial production, that any profitability is even possible for F2P games. The model seems to be: run your game long enough and you'll see your money back. But they can not operate in defiance of economic and business principles forever.
And who is going to lay out full price to make a AAA MMO knowing they'll not see a bit of profit back for 4-5 years? Which is why we see the cheap crap Cryptic keeps putting out (for instance).
It is also why F2P from scratch MMOs are usually lacking in comparison to their P2P equivalent in almost every way.
If the F2P model didn't work, Western companies wouldn't be trying to shift in that direction. The only problem working against them is mistrust developed by many Westerners that companies are trying to use it to nickle and dime them to death, it merely is just new and not quite understood. But if it works for Dota 2 and LoL, surely it can work for MMO's despite higher development costs, the online service part is pretty much in tact. Both companies constantly have to develop content to keep people happy and to keep developing customers.
Providing the players the option to pay on their own terms invites more people into their game where they otherwise wouldn't even be playing if a subscription was utilized instead. That's the part you forget is that subscriptions also act as a wall for some consumers and a wall that some might not care to pay. So even if only 10% of players that play an MMO actually pay for items on a monthly basis, those 10% probably would be the only ones in the game if a subscription was used instead.
The other point you forget too is the amount of money spent per spending player has much greater potential because you aren't pidgeon holing them into a set amount per month, the freedom to spend as little or as MUCH is there. Again, if you understood simple business, you definitely invest in potential otherwise the advertising industry wouldn't be taking over America, Idiocracy-style because that's all people pay when they invest in ads is for potential.
I can see future MMO's doing away with subs together or implementing free and sub options both into each MMO because giving the consumer freedom to spend as little or much is much better than forcing the profit out of them on a monthly basis.
So those old games had to be doing something right the the new games don't seem to be able to.
LoL is bigger than WoW. WoT is highly successful. GW2 sold 3.5M copies in a month.
Tell me .. which old MMO sold 3.5M copies in a month. In fact, it was claimed that GW2 is the fastest selling MMO.
Lol and WoT and the others of their ilk have less than 10% of the players paying anything, ever. So the vast majority pay nothing. So who cares? The companies do not care about people (being as you have admitted yourself) who don't pay. You, as a class, don't matter.
Is it that you don't understand how the business model works or don't want to understand how it works?
I understand perfectly the business strategy and underlying factors (perhaps better than most) of lowering the barrier to entry and getting people to play your game and such. If people can't/won't/aren't playing your game then they won't pay you anything. That much is true.
But what is also true is that we keep seeing reports that under 10% of F2P game players ever buy anything. Sure, they might some day, and keeping them in the game makes that possible, but the fact is that most of the time, they aren't. And many, like this Nuriussledon guy, never will (if you believe what he says). And those people, the companies don't care about and would frankly, rather have go away.
Again, you do not know how the business model works, no matter how superior you proclaim your knowledge of it is. Free players are potential conversions, group/guild/team mates for others, and they help to maintain a healthy server population. They are an integral part of the free to play business model, and they are needed for both the longevity and profitability of the game.
People that pay nothing, do not directly help the profitability of anything, by definition.
They only indirectly benefit the game by "becoming content" and that is at the cost of the access and at the price of all the bad behaviors that are impossible to remove (bots, cheaters, gold sellers. etc.). And even then, the churn is so high on F2P games that even those costs are proportionally even higher.
It is only because the operating expenses of MMO are so low after initial production, that any profitability is even possible for F2P games. The model seems to be: run your game long enough and you'll see your money back. But they can not operate in defiance of economic and business principles forever.
And who is going to lay out full price to make a AAA MMO knowing they'll not see a bit of profit back for 4-5 years? Which is why we see the cheap crap Cryptic keeps putting out (for instance).
It is also why F2P from scratch MMOs are usually lacking in comparison to their P2P equivalent in almost every way.
Ah, the problem is clearer now. It's not that you don't understand free to play, it's that you don't understand free to play, marketing, customer acquisition or any other subject related to this discussion. Forgive me. I shall not bother you further with facts or reality. *backs away slowly*
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Lol and WoT and the others of their ilk have less than 10% of the players paying anything, ever. So the vast majority pay nothing. So who cares? The companies do not care about people (being as you have admitted yourself) who don't pay. You, as a class, don't matter.
When original EQ had 500k players, it had 500k people paying every month. And sold 500k boxes. How many boxes did lol or WoT sell?
Really? LoL has 30M+ players. 10% paying (YOUR words, not mine). That is 3M and 6x the number of paying customers in Eve.
Who cares? Every dev who is making a MOBA ... pretty much a lot of them. Who else cares? LoL players and other MOBA players ...which just LoL alone, outnumber WoW, and outnumber Eve 60 to 1.
Ok.. just a few numbers and facts to get some truth straight.
LoL is incredible successful, especially considering for how less invested money, and production costs. It is just a MOBA, and MOBAs are a lot cheaper to develop than any MMO. But it is by far not that financial successful as you claim.
With other words.. your so poor EvE does generate more revenue than LoL.. and WoW of course do generate more revenue than anything else within the gaming industry. And in regards to EvE and WoW.. both do it more or less the last 10 years.
Amount of players don't mean a lot within the F2P revenue model.. you don't get steadily 15$/month, nor any initial sales. And paying players can mean players, which spend once in five years 5$ or less.
So those old games had to be doing something right the the new games don't seem to be able to.
LoL is bigger than WoW. WoT is highly successful. GW2 sold 3.5M copies in a month.
Tell me .. which old MMO sold 3.5M copies in a month. In fact, it was claimed that GW2 is the fastest selling MMO.
Lol and WoT and the others of their ilk have less than 10% of the players paying anything, ever. So the vast majority pay nothing. So who cares? The companies do not care about people (being as you have admitted yourself) who don't pay. You, as a class, don't matter.
Is it that you don't understand how the business model works or don't want to understand how it works?
I understand perfectly the business strategy and underlying factors (perhaps better than most) of lowering the barrier to entry and getting people to play your game and such. If people can't/won't/aren't playing your game then they won't pay you anything. That much is true.
But what is also true is that we keep seeing reports that under 10% of F2P game players ever buy anything. Sure, they might some day, and keeping them in the game makes that possible, but the fact is that most of the time, they aren't. And many, like this Nuriussledon guy, never will (if you believe what he says). And those people, the companies don't care about and would frankly, rather have go away.
Again, you do not know how the business model works, no matter how superior you proclaim your knowledge of it is. Free players are potential conversions, group/guild/team mates for others, and they help to maintain a healthy server population. They are an integral part of the free to play business model, and they are needed for both the longevity and profitability of the game.
People that pay nothing, do not directly help the profitability of anything, by definition.
They only indirectly benefit the game by "becoming content" and that is at the cost of the access and at the price of all the bad behaviors that are impossible to remove (bots, cheaters, gold sellers. etc.). And even then, the churn is so high on F2P games that even those costs are proportionally even higher.
It is only because the operating expenses of MMO are so low after initial production, that any profitability is even possible for F2P games. The model seems to be: run your game long enough and you'll see your money back. But they can not operate in defiance of economic and business principles forever.
And who is going to lay out full price to make a AAA MMO knowing they'll not see a bit of profit back for 4-5 years? Which is why we see the cheap crap Cryptic keeps putting out (for instance).
It is also why F2P from scratch MMOs are usually lacking in comparison to their P2P equivalent in almost every way.
Ah, the problem is clearer now. It's not that you don't understand free to play, it's that you don't understand free to play, marketing, customer acquisition or any other subject related to this discussion. Forgive me. I shall not bother you further with facts or reality. *backs away slowly*
Whatever man... I hear Zynga subscribed to this "new math" F2P whatever economic model, and that company's business plan is in the toilet. Just because people play your free game(s) does not mean that revenue follows.
Your so called reality, does not conform much to actual economic and market reality.
People that pay nothing, do not directly help the profitability of anything, by definition.
They only indirectly benefit the game by "becoming content" and that is at the cost of the access and at the price of all the bad behaviors that are impossible to remove (bots, cheaters, gold sellers. etc.). And even then, the churn is so high on F2P games that even those costs are proportionally even higher.
It is only because the operating expenses of MMO are so low after initial production, that any profitability is even possible for F2P games. The model seems to be: run your game long enough and you'll see your money back. But they can not operate in defiance of economic and business principles forever.
And who is going to lay out full price to make a AAA MMO knowing they'll not see a bit of profit back for 4-5 years? Which is why we see the cheap crap Cryptic keeps putting out (for instance).
It is also why F2P from scratch MMOs are usually lacking in comparison to their P2P equivalent in almost every way.
Ah, the problem is clearer now. It's not that you don't understand free to play, it's that you don't understand free to play, marketing, customer acquisition or any other subject related to this discussion. Forgive me. I shall not bother you further with facts or reality. *backs away slowly*
Whatever man... I hear Zynga subscribed to this "new math" F2P whatever economic model, and that company's business plan is in the toilet. Just because people play your free game(s) does not mean that revenue follows.
Your so called reality, does not conform much to actual economic and market reality.
Zynga's mistakes were a) reskinning, b) saturated platform (FB) and c) being tied to another's platform(FB) - the least significant factor was the microtransaction business model. Please, do some research.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Whatever man... I hear Zynga subscribed to this "new math" F2P whatever economic model, and that company's business plan is in the toilet. Just because people play your free game(s) does not mean that revenue follows.
Your so called reality, does not conform much to actual economic and market reality.
And i hear Riot Games subscribed to this "new math" F2P whatever economic model, and they are so successful that someone want to buy them out for $400M.
Whatever man... I hear Zynga subscribed to this "new math" F2P whatever economic model, and that company's business plan is in the toilet. Just because people play your free game(s) does not mean that revenue follows.
Your so called reality, does not conform much to actual economic and market reality.
And i hear Riot Games subscribed to this "new math" F2P whatever economic model, and they are so successful that someone want to buy them out for $400M.
Your in an MMORPG site talking about LoL? It's a shooter/strat PVP game isn't it? (Never played it myself) Might as well bring in Halo and call it a F2P game as well. Apples and Oranges here.
The argument/discussion revolves around older, standard MMOs vs. the newer MMO models. The F2P vs. P2P arena is so polarized that the same people jump in different threads and hawk their opinion about the pricing models. *head desk*
If a game gives me all the content I am after in F2P or P2P price model. If it gives me joy to play it and has the addiction factor to continue to log in after months and months. (Note I am a >20 hours/week player) Then I am there. Argueing F2P and P2P when it is the game itself that brings people in. If a game is simply spectacular, people will find a way to play and afford it. We are ALL RPGers and we ALL are looking for that one game that we simply love to play. Some of us have found it and some of us are still looking. Some of us like older games alot but want something similiar reinvented with modern graphics and features.
My take is many newer games are set up like Single Player games. SWTOR and RIFT were P2P but man did it take like no time to cruise into the dailies and repetitiveness of them. Collect everything, max level and get the best gear. The truth remains if you haven't played them as of today there is real value in picking up the software as cheaply as possible and playing them for free if you are on a budget. If you find them fun then who really can argue?
I personally do not like cash shops. I am older and I prefer (just my own preference right or wrong) to pay 1 price and have access to all existing content without having to pay more. I do not like having to pay for appearance items or skills or xp potions. These things should be available through player made crafting or in game plat. To me if in-game plat earned in game is used to buy an xp potion then its ok. People who use REAL money in alot of games to buy the same thing are cheating. Some games though it's not cheating. I prefer to play my games with what is available in the game. If I need to spend money to make the game fun for me (content notwithstanding) then I am kidding myself about said game and how much fun it really is.
The 'rose colored glasses' the OP wrote about has merit but some new games are and look promising. Not many, but a few.
First PC Game: Pool of Radiance July 10th, 1990. First MMO: Everquest April 23, 1999
Your in an MMORPG site talking about LoL? It's a shooter/strat PVP game isn't it? (Never played it myself) Might as well bring in Halo and call it a F2P game as well. Apples and Oranges here.
Of course. Said MMORPG site listed LoL in the "MMORPG Gamelist" page, and give it its own forum. I don't see a reason not to talk about it.
Your in an MMORPG site talking about LoL? It's a shooter/strat PVP game isn't it? (Never played it myself) Might as well bring in Halo and call it a F2P game as well. Apples and Oranges here.
Of course. Said MMORPG site listed LoL in the "MMORPG Gamelist" page, and give it its own forum. I don't see a reason not to talk about it.
If he wants to stick with traditional MMOs, here's a link:
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Your in an MMORPG site talking about LoL? It's a shooter/strat PVP game isn't it? (Never played it myself) Might as well bring in Halo and call it a F2P game as well. Apples and Oranges here.
Of course. Said MMORPG site listed LoL in the "MMORPG Gamelist" page, and give it its own forum. I don't see a reason not to talk about it.
If he wants to stick with traditional MMOs, here's a link:
Lamenting over MMOs from what they were 10 years ago is like pining for the days when gas was a quarter.... Different time, different circumstances......Some things were better, but the payment model was not one of those things.......
So is EQ and EQ2 and alot of other games. If they abandoned the P2P option, they would lose alot of membership quickly I think.
No one will abandon the sub option. If there are those who r willing to pay $15 a month, there is no reason not to take advantage of it.
but the sub-only model is dying.
The ones willing to pay, be it in P2P or F2P games, are those who make the games and their production quality possible. Leeches who don't pay a cent contribute to nothing.
Without people who pay, you would have no game to play. No matter the payment model the game uses.
So is EQ and EQ2 and alot of other games. If they abandoned the P2P option, they would lose alot of membership quickly I think.
No one will abandon the sub option. If there are those who r willing to pay $15 a month, there is no reason not to take advantage of it.
but the sub-only model is dying.
The ones willing to pay, be it in P2P or F2P games, are those who make the games and their production quality possible. Leeches who don't pay a cent contribute to nothing.
Without people who pay, you would have no game to play. No matter the payment model the game uses.
True. That is why whales are important to devs.
And if devs don't want leeches, they dont have to make it possible. And if they make it possible, i dont see a reason why i should not take advantage of it. I dont play games to contribute to anything. I play them for entertainment.
The issue with MMO's is the same issue with the entire gaming industry ATM. Dev's are making shallow games to please the masses and make tons of money. The reasons are obvious and at the end of the day it's likely to never change.
Lets say an MMO costs 50 million to make(some are less some are more)....
Sell a million boxes at 50$ +3 monthes of 15$ subs. = 95 MILLION dollars.
Even with infrastruture costs and post lauch development that's still ove50% ROI which is huge.
Why waste more time and money to make a good game when you can just milk the cash cow?
Hell TOR supposedly costs like 200 mil to make and THEY even made money even though it was supposely one of the worst MMO flops ever. they sold like 4 million boxes or something ridiculous.
Dev's arn't going to change their tune until they stop making money and sadly they arn't going to stop making money any time soon.
So is EQ and EQ2 and alot of other games. If they abandoned the P2P option, they would lose alot of membership quickly I think.
No one will abandon the sub option. If there are those who r willing to pay $15 a month, there is no reason not to take advantage of it.
but the sub-only model is dying.
The ones willing to pay, be it in P2P or F2P games, are those who make the games and their production quality possible. Leeches who don't pay a cent contribute to nothing.
Without people who pay, you would have no game to play. No matter the payment model the game uses.
True. That is why whales are important to devs.
And if devs don't want leeches, they dont have to make it possible. And if they make it possible, i dont see a reason why i should not take advantage of it. I dont play games to contribute to anything. I play them for entertainment.
Those imaginary "whales" are only an excuse for the leeches to keep on leeching. But I'm confident, payback will come, soon. Do your local movie theater also let you in to see movies for free because it's only "entertainment"? People leeching in games are not better than people pirating movies..
Those imaginary "whales" are only an excuse for the leeches to keep on leeching. But I'm confident, payback will come, soon. Do your local movie theater also let you in to see movies for free because it's only "entertainment"? People leeching in games are not better than people pirating movies..
Actually, a local movie chain here is running a promotion where some people get in to see movies for free. They are not doing it "because it's only entertainment" but as a promotional gimmick that they hope will attract more customers to their theaters. It would be idiotic to call the people who get their movie tickets and popcorn comped "leechers". They are getting free service in as part of the company's marketing campaign.
The "free" players in F2P games are a marketing tool the companies are using to attract paying customers.
Comments
Here's a question. Pre-Wow did you old school mmo players ever say what your hobby was to anyone? What was their reaction?
We aren't talking 10+ years. A bit too soon for rewriting history.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
Really? LoL has 30M+ players. 10% paying (YOUR words, not mine). That is 3M and 6x the number of paying customers in Eve.
Who cares? Every dev who is making a MOBA ... pretty much a lot of them. Who else cares? LoL players and other MOBA players ...which just LoL alone, outnumber WoW, and outnumber Eve 60 to 1.
Again, you do not know how the business model works, no matter how superior you proclaim your knowledge of it is. Free players are potential conversions, group/guild/team mates for others, and they help to maintain a healthy server population. They are an integral part of the free to play business model, and they are needed for both the longevity and profitability of the game.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
The number I heard for LoL in an interview was under 4%, because of the model. The articles I have seen said "up to 10%" on a game to game basis. Which means for most it is much less.
And keep in mind, that is "players who ever pay anything".
How many of those meet or exceed a typical sub fee is anyone's guess. But likely not many do.
Sure, there are a lot of F2P players, but on a per user basis the revenue average is in the toilet. And that is actually going in the wrong direction, as the number of users (for "eveything" ) climb but overall revenue does not keep pace on that increase and the graph bends even further the wrong way.
It does not bode well at all for the MMORPG industry, even if the "everything" numbers are increasing.
And frankly, if you are a non-customer that is an avowed "pay nothing" player, who is going to care about your opinions and playing preferences anyway? This is a for profit industry, like all the others.
People that pay nothing, do not directly help the profitability of anything, by definition.
They only indirectly benefit the game by "becoming content" and that is at the cost of the access and at the price of all the bad behaviors that are impossible to remove (bots, cheaters, gold sellers. etc.). And even then, the churn is so high on F2P games that even those costs are proportionally even higher.
It is only because the operating expenses of MMO are so low after initial production, that any profitability is even possible for F2P games. The model seems to be: run your game long enough and you'll see your money back. But they can not operate in defiance of economic and business principles forever.
And who is going to lay out full price to make a AAA MMO knowing they'll not see a bit of profit back for 4-5 years? Which is why we see the cheap crap Cryptic keeps putting out (for instance).
It is also why F2P from scratch MMOs are usually lacking in comparison to their P2P equivalent in almost every way.
2012's posted profit for LoL was 150 million...
Guess that would be the reason why Tencent invested 400 million into buying out Riot Games.
If the F2P model didn't work, Western companies wouldn't be trying to shift in that direction. The only problem working against them is mistrust developed by many Westerners that companies are trying to use it to nickle and dime them to death, it merely is just new and not quite understood. But if it works for Dota 2 and LoL, surely it can work for MMO's despite higher development costs, the online service part is pretty much in tact. Both companies constantly have to develop content to keep people happy and to keep developing customers.
Providing the players the option to pay on their own terms invites more people into their game where they otherwise wouldn't even be playing if a subscription was utilized instead. That's the part you forget is that subscriptions also act as a wall for some consumers and a wall that some might not care to pay. So even if only 10% of players that play an MMO actually pay for items on a monthly basis, those 10% probably would be the only ones in the game if a subscription was used instead.
The other point you forget too is the amount of money spent per spending player has much greater potential because you aren't pidgeon holing them into a set amount per month, the freedom to spend as little or as MUCH is there. Again, if you understood simple business, you definitely invest in potential otherwise the advertising industry wouldn't be taking over America, Idiocracy-style because that's all people pay when they invest in ads is for potential.
I can see future MMO's doing away with subs together or implementing free and sub options both into each MMO because giving the consumer freedom to spend as little or much is much better than forcing the profit out of them on a monthly basis.
Ah, the problem is clearer now. It's not that you don't understand free to play, it's that you don't understand free to play, marketing, customer acquisition or any other subject related to this discussion. Forgive me. I shall not bother you further with facts or reality. *backs away slowly*
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Ok.. just a few numbers and facts to get some truth straight.
EVE yearly revenue $66 million - http://techcrunch.com/2012/02/21/eve-online-saw-66m-in-revenue-last-year-mulls-ipo/
WoW yearly revenue above $1 billion - http://venturebeat.com/2013/09/11/analyst-world-of-warcraft-revenues-drop-54-in-7-months/
LoL yearly revenue (estimates) $25-50 million - http://www.businessinsider.com/digital-100#51-riot-games-51
LoL is incredible successful, especially considering for how less invested money, and production costs. It is just a MOBA, and MOBAs are a lot cheaper to develop than any MMO. But it is by far not that financial successful as you claim.
With other words.. your so poor EvE does generate more revenue than LoL.. and WoW of course do generate more revenue than anything else within the gaming industry. And in regards to EvE and WoW.. both do it more or less the last 10 years.
Amount of players don't mean a lot within the F2P revenue model.. you don't get steadily 15$/month, nor any initial sales. And paying players can mean players, which spend once in five years 5$ or less.
Whatever man... I hear Zynga subscribed to this "new math" F2P whatever economic model, and that company's business plan is in the toilet. Just because people play your free game(s) does not mean that revenue follows.
Your so called reality, does not conform much to actual economic and market reality.
Zynga's mistakes were a) reskinning, b) saturated platform (FB) and c) being tied to another's platform(FB) - the least significant factor was the microtransaction business model. Please, do some research.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
And i hear Riot Games subscribed to this "new math" F2P whatever economic model, and they are so successful that someone want to buy them out for $400M.
Your in an MMORPG site talking about LoL? It's a shooter/strat PVP game isn't it? (Never played it myself) Might as well bring in Halo and call it a F2P game as well. Apples and Oranges here.
The argument/discussion revolves around older, standard MMOs vs. the newer MMO models. The F2P vs. P2P arena is so polarized that the same people jump in different threads and hawk their opinion about the pricing models. *head desk*
If a game gives me all the content I am after in F2P or P2P price model. If it gives me joy to play it and has the addiction factor to continue to log in after months and months. (Note I am a >20 hours/week player) Then I am there. Argueing F2P and P2P when it is the game itself that brings people in. If a game is simply spectacular, people will find a way to play and afford it. We are ALL RPGers and we ALL are looking for that one game that we simply love to play. Some of us have found it and some of us are still looking. Some of us like older games alot but want something similiar reinvented with modern graphics and features.
My take is many newer games are set up like Single Player games. SWTOR and RIFT were P2P but man did it take like no time to cruise into the dailies and repetitiveness of them. Collect everything, max level and get the best gear. The truth remains if you haven't played them as of today there is real value in picking up the software as cheaply as possible and playing them for free if you are on a budget. If you find them fun then who really can argue?
I personally do not like cash shops. I am older and I prefer (just my own preference right or wrong) to pay 1 price and have access to all existing content without having to pay more. I do not like having to pay for appearance items or skills or xp potions. These things should be available through player made crafting or in game plat. To me if in-game plat earned in game is used to buy an xp potion then its ok. People who use REAL money in alot of games to buy the same thing are cheating. Some games though it's not cheating. I prefer to play my games with what is available in the game. If I need to spend money to make the game fun for me (content notwithstanding) then I am kidding myself about said game and how much fun it really is.
The 'rose colored glasses' the OP wrote about has merit but some new games are and look promising. Not many, but a few.
First PC Game: Pool of Radiance July 10th, 1990. First MMO: Everquest April 23, 1999
Of course. Said MMORPG site listed LoL in the "MMORPG Gamelist" page, and give it its own forum. I don't see a reason not to talk about it.
If he wants to stick with traditional MMOs, here's a link:
http://www.superdataresearch.com/blog/wow-microtransactions/
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
heheh .. yeah. Cash shop is the norm now. I wonder when WOW is going to get rid of the sub-only model.
Isn't Wow F2P Now with a choice?
So is EQ and EQ2 and alot of other games. If they abandoned the P2P option, they would lose alot of membership quickly I think.
First PC Game: Pool of Radiance July 10th, 1990. First MMO: Everquest April 23, 1999
No one will abandon the sub option. If there are those who r willing to pay $15 a month, there is no reason not to take advantage of it.
but the sub-only model is dying.
The ones willing to pay, be it in P2P or F2P games, are those who make the games and their production quality possible. Leeches who don't pay a cent contribute to nothing.
Without people who pay, you would have no game to play. No matter the payment model the game uses.
My computer is better than yours.
True. That is why whales are important to devs.
And if devs don't want leeches, they dont have to make it possible. And if they make it possible, i dont see a reason why i should not take advantage of it. I dont play games to contribute to anything. I play them for entertainment.
The issue with MMO's is the same issue with the entire gaming industry ATM. Dev's are making shallow games to please the masses and make tons of money. The reasons are obvious and at the end of the day it's likely to never change.
Lets say an MMO costs 50 million to make(some are less some are more)....
Sell a million boxes at 50$ +3 monthes of 15$ subs. = 95 MILLION dollars.
Even with infrastruture costs and post lauch development that's still ove50% ROI which is huge.
Why waste more time and money to make a good game when you can just milk the cash cow?
Hell TOR supposedly costs like 200 mil to make and THEY even made money even though it was supposely one of the worst MMO flops ever. they sold like 4 million boxes or something ridiculous.
Dev's arn't going to change their tune until they stop making money and sadly they arn't going to stop making money any time soon.
Those imaginary "whales" are only an excuse for the leeches to keep on leeching. But I'm confident, payback will come, soon. Do your local movie theater also let you in to see movies for free because it's only "entertainment"? People leeching in games are not better than people pirating movies..
My computer is better than yours.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
Actually, a local movie chain here is running a promotion where some people get in to see movies for free. They are not doing it "because it's only entertainment" but as a promotional gimmick that they hope will attract more customers to their theaters. It would be idiotic to call the people who get their movie tickets and popcorn comped "leechers". They are getting free service in as part of the company's marketing campaign.
The "free" players in F2P games are a marketing tool the companies are using to attract paying customers.