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Originally posted by ChrisboxGood players use their skill to obtain said good gear.
Oh man, How warped has the community become.
You obtain gear through RNG. There is no skill involved, you continually play the numbers of probability and chance until an item is yours.
The vibe i get from some posters: "bad players are directly linked with bad gear"is equally ridiculous.
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Originally posted by Murugan This is necessary, some of the primal battles just cannot be done in AF gear. A lot of PUG groups however could win ifrit/garuda as long as everyone has decent gear obtained from AK/Wanderer's Palace.
Pretty much this ^
I'm not big on elitism, or gearscore, but as is the game just does NOT do a good enough job of preparing players for the harder content. It's already getting old trying to do fights like Titan Hardmode, when 70-80% of the people trying to group for it both A) don't have the gear and don't understand basic mechanics (i.e. don't stand in the AoE).
Like titan, there are just too many fights that people can Q up for without being able to handle them at all. This puts a lot of strain on other group members to try and carry the weight, or in worse circumstances it means you're forced to take a Q lockout for 15mins or beat your head against the wall.
although i do strive for the newest shiny i will not focus on my gear score
if gear score becomes something that must be fussed over to continue in the game i will cancel my sub - simple
Originally posted by Nitth Originally posted by Chrisbox Good players use their skill to obtain said good gear.
The vibe i get from some posters: "bad players are directly linked with bad gear" is equally ridiculous.
Indeed most of the best players I've met in the game are constantly complaining about about getting screwed on rolls, while I continuously see bad players who were dead most of the fight winning the loot. It's the same problem that has been plaguing every gear-treadmill MMO since WoW.
Gonna try this again (now with bold letters!):
You cannot possibly pass Titan HM without a certain tier of gear. Skill does not matter. All skill is to ensure that use your gear to the fullest potential, it does not make up for gear deficiencies.
Complain all you want about a "gear score" (truly its a gear LEVEL), but it exists today. You just don't know it.
There's really only two instances that require this kind of gating - Titan HM and BCoB. All the rest can be technically done in quest gained gear, and should have gear requirements that matches to those quests. The exception is AF speed runs, where you should have at least level 60 gear.
Originally posted by Nitth Originally posted by Chrisbox Good players use their skill to obtain said good gear.
It is ridiculous but it happens. I have met some of the most unintelligent people playing MMOs, yet they feel they are superior to me based on their gear.
They may be slow to react, slow to learn new methods of playing, slow all around, but somehow the fact that they have "500 gear score" compared to me 294, makes them superior and feel they can look/talk down to me.
I understand the want to limit people doing these "hard dungeons" because you wipe/don't complete if they don't have good gear...I just hate the idea of gear score.
Granted I don't know what else to tell you, but somehow, since I began playing MMOs in 1999....all these years we managed to raid without some stupid gear score.
It wasn't until WoW decided to make it a huge deal that it "gained some ground". but also WoW is where all these "Elitists" started talking smack on people with low gear scores...or basing anything off the score.
Sure we will start with the gear score helping with raids...but it WILL blossom into "Oh you can't join our fate party, gear score too low. Oh you can't join our FC, gear score too low. Oh you aren't good enough to be my friend, gear score too low. Oh you are a noob because your gear score is too low. Oh I am going to talk smack on you just because my gear score is higher than yours. Oh your gear score is only 199? LOL what a noob, l2getarmor." Oh you want to pvp? Why the fluck do you even pvp if your gear score isn't above ###? WTF ARE YOU DOING NOOB YOUR GEAR SCORE IS ONLY ### DON"T FLUCKING PLAY PVP WITH ME IF YOUR GEAR SCORE ISN'T AT LEAST ###"
I can see it now.
I am entitled to my opinions, misspellings, and grammatical errors.
"The vibe i get from some posters: "bad players are directly linked with bad gear"is equally ridiculous. "
Umm, no it isn't. It's harsher than necessary, but when you have bad gear you are a liability in the last two instances. A liability that is so bad that it will cause a full party wipe. The gear just doesn't exist for everyone else to carry you (exception may be 7 people in full AF2 on Titan HM, and if you are the 8th as a DPS).
For instance, I'm a pretty darn good player. I can nail the mechanics of Titan HM to the second, but I cannot beat it. Why? I don't have the sheer throughput, which makes me a liability. Liabilities are bad in raid content.
I see no reason why a gear score would apply to FATES. The contribution isn't even decided that way. You are making an issue out something that has no reason to ever happen.
What is wrong with exclusive FC? There are always guilds that are power levelers and progression focused. They could just as easily you deny you for not having full AF1 gear. Don't like it? Go join the dozens of more casual guilds. There's nothing wrong with that, you should enjoy the game your way. Don't let what someone else does affect that.
I have a pretty good idea of what works and what doesn't. If I PUG an AK speed run and I see a tank in full sub 50s, I just leave because it will be impossible to achieve. All a gear score will do is save everyone the time of running the number themselves. It shouldn't significantly change what is happening now.
They got tired of designing gear check encounters. Too hard to tune precisely.
Arbitrary score as the gatekeeper, insead? Same function; much easier on the encounter designers.
And in a rough-thumbnail general estimate way, it'll even (mostly) do the job. Only on the individual player (the rare one that actually does outperform his gear) level does it break down. Note: 99% will consider themselves in this category, of course.
Lot of special snowflake caterwauling must ensue, naturally.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
You've got a dungeon finder that can gear you up to any requirements, so it doesn't really matter. It's not like 100% of groups you get put in 3 months from now are going to say OMG NOOB as soon as you auto appear in their group and abandon the duty.
It'll be neat having a gear treadmill where you can gear all your other classes with it instead of most drops not being for you. Sure that'll mean winning greed rolls but so what, it'll be there.
Eventually you'll meet the requirements for every class in the game and can play whatever whenever. Pretty neat.
Originally posted by Dragim It is ridiculous but it happens. I have met some of the most unintelligent people playing MMOs, yet they feel they are superior to me based on their gear. They may be slow to react, slow to learn new methods of playing, slow all around, but somehow the fact that they have "500 gear score" compared to me 294, makes them superior and feel they can look/talk down to me.
Well, you can be dismissive of this attitude (with good reason), but they are not exactly wrong there, that's just the result of a game design where your characters performance is more dependend on a stat sheet than the player. This is the essence of every RPG with vertical progression. You can press those buttons as hard as you like, in the end the character with bigger numbers gets better results.
GearScore or no GearScore there will always be a judgement on your qualifications. I'd rather be judged by the game, than be judged by others. The only way this can be avoided is by not allowing players to be examined by each other, and to allow the transmutation of gear so that one can not discern the stats of gear by its recognizable appearance. The best case scenario, IMHO, would be a system in which the game qualifies one as dungeon eligible based on your gear qualification, but others are not able to examine your gear. That to me would be the fairest solution.
Originally posted by Naqaj Gearscore is a feature that solves problems created by this particular design of MMO endgame. It creates other problems in return, but overall, if you have an MMO like this, you're better off with gearscore than without.
I just don't like games designed this way because I think it's a lazy way to keep people playing and paying. It's an outmoded game design that takes advantage of obsessive-compulsive tendencies. Not that there is anything wrong with it if it's fun for you.
It's just more leveling after you reach level cap, but it involves gear, rolling for gear, disputes over gear, running the same content over and over to get the gear you need to run the same content over and over to get the gear you need. I understand that some people like this type of game, so good. In a game like this, as Naqaj says, gear score is a good idea.
Originally posted by Voqar It amazes me how many people have silly thoughts on this. Requiring gear for content has nothing to do with elitism - stop being ridiculous. It's just a way of saying, duh, you need to be appropriately geared for the content. So sad, nobody gets to carry your loser self thru. Yeah yeah, cry me a river. I'm sure you're so amazing that you can produce more dps and heals than are numerically possible in your current gear to somehow actually be suitable for content well beyond you. There's no lack of people who are legends in their own minds playing MMORPGs. But back in reality, even if you are 95% efficient, which would be very high, you are still limited by what your gear allows for producing numbers, and everything computer, including games, comes down to numbers. Ie, you could be god's gift to gaming and the best raider in the world but you are still limited for output based on your gear. One thing they seem to be attempting in FFXIV is to reduce cheese. Sissies can't have their high level friends plow them thru instances due to level scaling. You can't obliterate already moronically easy fates with being higher level. Etc. This is just more of the same. Prevent geared players from dragging ungeared players thru content to get them easy gear. This game is already easy, making it even more easy for the pansies of the genre isn't necessary. I applaud this move. P2P is all about playing to win, not having someone carry you - might as well do P2W if you're that much of a scrub. To most sensible people this is a non issue because if you give a crap and have a clue you will already be appropriately geared for content you're doing. Plus you'll most likely be doing high end content with your FC and/or friends who you already know are geared and competent and you won't need gearscore except as a reference for when a friend asks, how do I know I'm ready for XXX? Good MMORPGs have tiered content. Tiered content has gear progression. Gear progression means getting gear from one tier before moving on to the next. Gearscore is just one way of measuring your progress thru progression. Simple. Easy. Not a big deal. You could say "you need your sexified suit of uberness before doing boss XXX." You could say "you need to complete W, X, and Y before doing Z" - OR you can just simply say, you need this amount of gear for X, this for Y, this for Z, and make it a lot less nebulous and a lot less confusing. Even the dumbest of the dummies in MMORPGs can usually understand simple numbers as long as there aren't too many digits involved. There is the possibility of d-baggery, which also isn't really elitism, unless you REALLY think a bunch of punks whos only achievements in life are playing video games 20 hours a day and thinking they're oh so amazing are in any way elite. I'm SURE mommy is proud as she monitors the basement and changes the diapers. You're going to see people doing the "LFG for XXX speed runs have a stick up your butt and XXX gear score".... ...and who cares. You're not obligated to group with anybody. Make some friends of like mind. Use doody finder. Why should you care how other people play anyways? Blacklist if you really can't stand to see that kind of spam.
^ This right here !!! +1
This thread reminds me why I really dislike RPGs that revolve around you taking on the role of a hamster.
On the subject of elitism, it always amuses me when people who are quite clearly at the bottom of the food chain be it intellectually, socially, financially, artistically (whatever) consider themselves elite. One can be the best equipped hamster on the block but one is still a hamster!
For a game that revolves around grinding content to unlock the next grind GS seems like a valid way to keep players in their places. Really it is all about keeping hams...err payers motivated with bigger numbers you could get rid of gear and just have a score probably.
Just the thought of keeping scores in my MMO makes me want to vomit. I hate gear scores and I hate armories. I've always enjoyed the concept of getting keyed especially when it involves an entertaining quest or story line.
Eh... the whole score thing just breaks my immersion, because what I'm looking for in these MMO's is an adventure in a virtual world that I can lose myself in for a few hours a week. If I want to keep track of score's and make the game some kind of competition then I might as well play Hockey or something.
Don't really care about anyone's Epeen , I just want to have fun.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
I have to see how SE implements this to judge. Is it all Duty finder or just the random. (sorta like you can by pass the 2 tanks, 2 healers, 4 dds if you make your own party, can you bypass the gear requirement if you make your own group?)
If you cannot bypass it then how is it being implemented?
If it is you need a score of say 70 to do Titan Hard, but it is doable at a score of 60 but much harder then I have a major issue. Because you are making me not take people who are still capable in my guild.
If it is the flip where with a score of 70 you can do it, but you can enter with 60still do it but with a great deal of difficulty I am ok with it.
It will be good if it keeps people from doing something they stand no shot at beating. Like a person with item level 40 armor and a item level 47 weapon should not enter Baha lab. or Even Titan Hard. That I am fine with because they are not capable of beating it effectivly if at all, even in a guild setting.
But I do not want to see them impose gear requirements based on Duty Finder/Pugs. If I can take an item level 50 person into Garuda Hard and win with my guild... SE should not tell me I cannot take them because in a pug scenrio it will fail. There is too much focus on pugs at endgame and not guilds (which is completely backwards). This requirement while good for pugs is horrible for guilds... sorta like most other decisions they made so far in endgame.
The gear requirements need to be below what is effectivly doable in a pug. Meaning they need to ballance it with guilds in mind not the duty finder. Because what is doable in a guild many times is not doable in a pug due to lack of coordination and communication.
In short, I hope this is only imposed when someone finds random people through finder. Then and only then is it a good thing.
Originally posted by vidiotking I think the GS does away w/ elitism... You either have the score you need to get in or you don't . There are no personal feelings involved.
It doesn't does away with it, it just replaces it. Now instead of some internet bad ass telling you to 'pis off scrub your gear isn't good enough'..GS does that for him. The direct verbal confrontation isn't there but principle is still there.
However it won't do away with elitism completely because no matter how nicely you are geared if you fail in HM instances someone will always try to put you down. Then the focus shifts from your gear to your skills.
Originally posted by Bigdaddyx Originally posted by vidiotking I think the GS does away w/ elitism... You either have the score you need to get in or you don't . There are no personal feelings involved.
If it replaces it, it DOES do away with it.
If you fail an instance, and it wasn't your gear, because of the GS, but was instead your skills. Then people have a right to question those skills.. That's not elitism.
It seems to me this is a matter of letting the game decide, rather than letting the player make their own choices. I can't say if it's good or bad, if it's better to let a party leader only allow people in the group with certain items or let the game decide it for them but it does take away a bit of that 'free will' feeling.
Originally posted by Gravarg gear score doesn't mean much in this game, it's more skill based, especially for tanks. I have tanked Odin, Titan, Garuda, Ifrit, all with no problems, with out full darklight even. It's more of a skill game than it is about min/maxing
What if you were trying to tank in your lvl 1 season holiday event bathing suit?
Originally posted by Darknessguy64 Originally posted by Gravarg gear score doesn't mean much in this game, it's more skill based, especially for tanks. I have tanked Odin, Titan, Garuda, Ifrit, all with no problems, with out full darklight even. It's more of a skill game than it is about min/maxing
Better be for ifrit, that +fire resist ftw! XD
Originally posted by Gravarg Originally posted by Darknessguy64 Originally posted by Gravarg gear score doesn't mean much in this game, it's more skill based, especially for tanks. I have tanked Odin, Titan, Garuda, Ifrit, all with no problems, with out full darklight even. It's more of a skill game than it is about min/maxing
I think you are referring to the storyline dungeons, which are very easy.
Item level lock is going to be for the really hard stuff...and to me adding the lock tells me they are going to make it a very hard instance AFTER accounting for the fact you are properly geared.
The guy did say some endgame content would be so hard youll cry...I hope he is right...but one of the ways to do that is to design the instance to be difficult with no room for a lack of gear...and I think that's what they will do.
Some games you can get by on endgame without the right gear just by being semi-awake...some games are designed so that you fail no matter how good you are if your gear isn't up to par.