I'm a "hate the player, not the game" type of person when it comes to things like gear scores and dps meters, but I will say that this seems to be a fitting tool for a community that is a non-stop bitchfest about bad tanks, bad healers, bad DD, bad ... everything.
Holy ****, you had to stop dpsing and use Sleep to save your healer from an add the tank didn't pick up? Better quit now because this run is a bust!
At some level acquiring gear (and skills, teamwork, etc.) that enables you to take on more difficult content is the entire foundation of progression raiding. In that sense, it's obvious to any reasonable player that you can sometimes hurt more than you can help while undergeared, and you should be left behind.
One can also stand GS on its head, however, and identify it as a crutch for players who are unable or unwilling to work around the shortcomings of the people they play with, and players who can't be bothered to learn the game's mechanics or the nuances of their role/job. It puts them in position to be carried by the few good, geared players, rather than have to take part in carrying the many bad, undergeared ones. Aside from participating in world first-style achievements, I would argue that truly good players don't care much about carrying other players as long as the goal is achieved. If that means playing in a way that they wouldn't have to play with other good players, in order to compensate for the shortcoming of their group in certain fights, so be it.
The best use for gear scores IMO is for a group that often runs together to identify areas where they can get more out of their group as a whole, and to identify content they think they can do with the evening's group make-up. ie "We can only take on X tonight, but if we gear up players A and B, we should be able to take on Y with this group next week." Unfortunately, most players would rather just find permanent replacements for players A and B, but that's on the quality of people playing the game, not the tool itself.
I support this because it already exists in indirect form.
If you run Titan HM in level 50 gears from your job quest you will fail. Period - it has nothing to do with skill. I can't complete Titan HM right now because my heal throughput on Succor is too low from my gear level - which is all Strategos (lvl 60) or AK1 (lvl 70).
Perhaps if we booted the people who run in level 50s, people like me with reasonably good gear can get it done.
It's not a "gate" at least not in the way you framed it. As things stand right now, yeah you could queue up with bad gear and get carried. However, there is a point at the game where people just cannot carry a poorly geared player. This is why people will not run with certain gear tiers. There is a distinct point in the game where gear outstrips player skill. If you run Titan HM with level 50s you will fail. Skill is meaningless at that point.
The real argument is that these gear checks exist at all, which you seem to miss. Your excessive negativity and poor argument really make all of your posts lose legitimacy. I don't think you play this game.
Basically a new function will be going in to lock people out of some endgame content if they don't meet the item level requirements.
This is causing some uproar...now they are basically going to say that if you don't have the hard mode gear you cant run raids (in a generalized manner here)
Now, a lot of people hate GS. However...it does serve a good purpose.
It is no different than locking out a level 20 from the level 30 dungeons. It will prevent people from trying to piggy back on people who did run the appropriate content and skip ahead. It will prevent the un favorable situation where one group member is getting harassed for being under geared, or others leaving a group because of someone not knowing that this instance you need full HM gear or whatever.
I think its great because it will reduce negative instances of someone unknowingly entering an instance they are not prepared for (and you can NEVER tell these people anything without them taking offense, not matter how nice you phrase it btw)
Also, it will stop people from basically skipping the endgame content and diving right into the top tier by riding on the backs of friends ect. So you will see more people running the level 44-50 dungeons to gear up for hard modes, and more people running hard modes to gear up for raids ect...and less people trying to skip it all and do a raid.
What are your thoughts? Does locking endgame instances as they have done instances while leveling up piss you off or make you happy...and why?
I can see the positive points of gear score, but it just invites elitists. Games are meant to be fun and enjoyable, not sport. If people want competitions then join a football club or other sport activity. I just want to log on and enjoy what free time I have with out some wee twit telling me they're better than me.
I generally don't like Gear Score. Typically, I play enough to have an adequate GS, but hate the mentality of "OMG, you suck! You only have XXX score? Geez man, l2play".
Gear Score is a developers way out. It allows them to design content for a base power level instead of truly designing an encounter that is challenging, but not overpowdered.
I'd rather endgame content be progression based with no initial score that the player needs to get. Gamers are not stupid. If we notice that they aren't cutting the mustard, we'll either whine like Vanilla-WoW Warriors or find a way to get past the encounter; even if that means telling the raid members "get better gear" or swapping out the under-performers.
FFS, EQ didn't have a GS back in the day and we still managed to clear raid content.
Raquelis in various games Played: Everything Playing: Nioh 2, Civ6 Wants: The World Anticipating:Everquest NextCrowfall, Pantheon, Elden Ring
Basically a new function will be going in to lock people out of some endgame content if they don't meet the item level requirements.
This is causing some uproar...now they are basically going to say that if you don't have the hard mode gear you cant run raids (in a generalized manner here)
Now, a lot of people hate GS. However...it does serve a good purpose.
It is no different than locking out a level 20 from the level 30 dungeons. It will prevent people from trying to piggy back on people who did run the appropriate content and skip ahead. It will prevent the un favorable situation where one group member is getting harassed for being under geared, or others leaving a group because of someone not knowing that this instance you need full HM gear or whatever.
I think its great because it will reduce negative instances of someone unknowingly entering an instance they are not prepared for (and you can NEVER tell these people anything without them taking offense, not matter how nice you phrase it btw)
Also, it will stop people from basically skipping the endgame content and diving right into the top tier by riding on the backs of friends ect. So you will see more people running the level 44-50 dungeons to gear up for hard modes, and more people running hard modes to gear up for raids ect...and less people trying to skip it all and do a raid.
What are your thoughts? Does locking endgame instances as they have done instances while leveling up piss you off or make you happy...and why?
I can see the positive points of gear score, but it just invites elitists. Games are meant to be fun and enjoyable, not sport. If people want competitions then join a football club or other sport activity. I just want to log on and enjoy what free time I have with out some wee twit telling me they're better than me.
Gear score will just only give another tool to elitist who already spam chat with messages like 'must be fully geared, should know all the fights...no scrubs, you will be inspected and kicked out'.... i saw these messages just one week after release..yes one week. Everyone is supposed to be geared to the teeth and know all fights at lvl 50 after one week time.
It just left such a bad taste in my mouth and how end game is going to be. I haven't been lucky enough to find a good FC either so i was pretty much on my own. So i just decided to stay away from end game.
This is the kind of crowd you attract with gear score and stats based gear grind. Wildstar is going the same route and it really disapoints me because i thought MMOS were moving forward and not backward.
Basically a new function will be going in to lock people out of some endgame content if they don't meet the item level requirements.
This is causing some uproar...now they are basically going to say that if you don't have the hard mode gear you cant run raids (in a generalized manner here)
Now, a lot of people hate GS. However...it does serve a good purpose.
It is no different than locking out a level 20 from the level 30 dungeons. It will prevent people from trying to piggy back on people who did run the appropriate content and skip ahead. It will prevent the un favorable situation where one group member is getting harassed for being under geared, or others leaving a group because of someone not knowing that this instance you need full HM gear or whatever.
I think its great because it will reduce negative instances of someone unknowingly entering an instance they are not prepared for (and you can NEVER tell these people anything without them taking offense, not matter how nice you phrase it btw)
Also, it will stop people from basically skipping the endgame content and diving right into the top tier by riding on the backs of friends ect. So you will see more people running the level 44-50 dungeons to gear up for hard modes, and more people running hard modes to gear up for raids ect...and less people trying to skip it all and do a raid.
What are your thoughts? Does locking endgame instances as they have done instances while leveling up piss you off or make you happy...and why?
I can see the positive points of gear score, but it just invites elitists. Games are meant to be fun and enjoyable, not sport. If people want competitions then join a football club or other sport activity. I just want to log on and enjoy what free time I have with out some wee twit telling me they're better than me.
Actually elitists invite themselves. They don't need GS tool in their hands to be elitists. However if the tool does the job instead of them telling you gtfo of their raid, than that's actually a step making world less elitistic.
Less in sense that people do (or will with time) accept raid requirement gear lvl of 3488 the same way that everyone accepts personal character levels being requirements to enter instances along the way of leveling. I'm pretty sure the tool alone won't make more elitism by itself, but it can lessen the direct influence that elitis would otherwise have on you. Those same elitists will still be there tho, just less obvious.
edit: As I pointed out on previous page, it is quite a recognizable (I'd even say defining) modern themepark feature, which FFARR is.
Indeed, it's that type of attitude towards other gamers that ruins it every one else. Gear score mainly works for those who want to feel important or special. I seen it a lot in various games.
Basically a new function will be going in to lock people out of some endgame content if they don't meet the item level requirements.
This is causing some uproar...now they are basically going to say that if you don't have the hard mode gear you cant run raids (in a generalized manner here)
Now, a lot of people hate GS. However...it does serve a good purpose.
It is no different than locking out a level 20 from the level 30 dungeons. It will prevent people from trying to piggy back on people who did run the appropriate content and skip ahead. It will prevent the un favorable situation where one group member is getting harassed for being under geared, or others leaving a group because of someone not knowing that this instance you need full HM gear or whatever.
I think its great because it will reduce negative instances of someone unknowingly entering an instance they are not prepared for (and you can NEVER tell these people anything without them taking offense, not matter how nice you phrase it btw)
Also, it will stop people from basically skipping the endgame content and diving right into the top tier by riding on the backs of friends ect. So you will see more people running the level 44-50 dungeons to gear up for hard modes, and more people running hard modes to gear up for raids ect...and less people trying to skip it all and do a raid.
What are your thoughts? Does locking endgame instances as they have done instances while leveling up piss you off or make you happy...and why?
I can see the positive points of gear score, but it just invites elitists. Games are meant to be fun and enjoyable, not sport. If people want competitions then join a football club or other sport activity. I just want to log on and enjoy what free time I have with out some wee twit telling me they're better than me.
However if the tool does the job instead of them telling you gtfo of their raid, than that's actually a step making world less elitistic.
Damn, it's now clear what we were missing before the Civil Rights Era ****ed up everything. If public facilities had only had devices that detected your race and refused to admit blacks to "whites only" areas instead of white folk having to tell them to gtfo, that would have been a step toward making the world less racist.
As long as they are very generous with what gear score is allowed, then I suppose I can tolerate it.
It should though not lock out people with gear that is actually enough to beat the content if they play good enough (without exploting of course).
I would have prefered to remove all level and equip restrictions for "hard" content, but yeah.
i hate gear score - but i agree w you
I don't. You *need* gear to complete the high level stuff. I don't care if you turn in a perfect mechanical performance on Titan HM. If your raw throughput doesn't meet a distinct average, you'll fail - at no real fault of your play style.
If they aren't going to change the dungeons to make it a little more skill based, then we need this. I shouldn't have to carry you and you shouldn't want to be carried.
Basically a new function will be going in to lock people out of some endgame content if they don't meet the item level requirements.
This is causing some uproar...now they are basically going to say that if you don't have the hard mode gear you cant run raids (in a generalized manner here)
Now, a lot of people hate GS. However...it does serve a good purpose.
It is no different than locking out a level 20 from the level 30 dungeons. It will prevent people from trying to piggy back on people who did run the appropriate content and skip ahead. It will prevent the un favorable situation where one group member is getting harassed for being under geared, or others leaving a group because of someone not knowing that this instance you need full HM gear or whatever.
I think its great because it will reduce negative instances of someone unknowingly entering an instance they are not prepared for (and you can NEVER tell these people anything without them taking offense, not matter how nice you phrase it btw)
Also, it will stop people from basically skipping the endgame content and diving right into the top tier by riding on the backs of friends ect. So you will see more people running the level 44-50 dungeons to gear up for hard modes, and more people running hard modes to gear up for raids ect...and less people trying to skip it all and do a raid.
What are your thoughts? Does locking endgame instances as they have done instances while leveling up piss you off or make you happy...and why?
I can see the positive points of gear score, but it just invites elitists. Games are meant to be fun and enjoyable, not sport. If people want competitions then join a football club or other sport activity. I just want to log on and enjoy what free time I have with out some wee twit telling me they're better than me.
However if the tool does the job instead of them telling you gtfo of their raid, than that's actually a step making world less elitistic.
Damn, it's now clear what we were missing before the Civil Rights Era ****ed up everything. If public facilities had only had devices that detected your race and refused to admit blacks to "whites only" areas instead of white folk having to tell them to gtfo, that would have been a step toward making the world less racist.
/sarcasm
Hahaha...best post so far. Sir you win this thread and the interwebs.
However if the tool does the job instead of them telling you gtfo of their raid, than that's actually a step making world less elitistic.
Damn, it's now clear what we were missing before the Civil Rights Era ****ed up everything. If public facilities had only had devices that detected your race and refused to admit blacks to "whites only" areas instead of white folk having to tell them to gtfo, that would have been a step toward making the world less racist.
/sarcasm
^
Wants to make a funny sarcastic joke by bringing in black and white racism history problems in comparison to mmorpg gear scores and pixel elitists.
/facepalm
Also the part of my quote that you conviniently deleted already contains explanation in what (abstract) sense it makes it less elitistic.
To quote myself:
Originally posted by StarI
Less in sense that people do (or will with time) accept raid requirement gear lvl of 3488 the same way that everyone accepts personal character levels being requirements to enter instances along the way of leveling. I'm pretty sure the tool alone won't make more elitism by itself, but it can lessen the direct influence that elitis would otherwise have on you. Those same elitists will still be there tho, just less obvious.
Originally posted by Tsuru Avg Item Level != gear score. Please dont confuse the two.
It's a pretty darn good indicator. AF1 and AF2 are 70/90 respectively. Good luck getting significantly better gear that don't have that kind of level on them.
I have been waiting for this for a looong time (err approx 10 days). If you ever reach end game and wipe 100+ times on HM Garuda/Titan because people are queuing with lvl 35 gear, you would be pissed too. So YEAH Thanks a bunch SE you rock my world
I hate GS, when Blizz adopted the unfortunately popular player made mod into their interface, it was the beginning of the end.
GS is the ultimate hand holding in MMO's. People should be allowed to be stupid and fail. Same reason I hate the seatbelt beep in cars. I would prefer that stupid people be permitted to die in car accidents through their own choices.
That's what GS is. It's a forced seatbelt so that people who are too dumb or incapable at playing beyond their gear level have a pretty good chance at success. Let them fail.
GS has only proved to me, time and time again, that most people are barely capable of 50%-75% effectiveness with their class.
I shouldn't have to carry you and you shouldn't want to be carried.
valid point but kills the socialization aspect of mmos
HOW!? That's the most /facepalm rebuttal I've seen in ages.
We are talking about an instance. If anything the instance itself kills the socialization aspect of MMOs.
you've never carried ingame friends?
I have and see no issues with it
Good grief. My whole point is that under current settings YOU CANNOT CARRY PEOPLE PAST A CERTAIN POINT. This is why GS is critical.
Also, to answer your total non-sequitor, no - I do not carry friends. I help them understand mechanics and assist where I can to get them what they need to succeed on their own merits.
So long as its the devs, who designed the content and know what is actually required of them, I have no problem with it. If it allows some stupid gearscore addon where some braindead moron has a say in it then no. In fact, id just quit the day its released.
Comments
I'm a "hate the player, not the game" type of person when it comes to things like gear scores and dps meters, but I will say that this seems to be a fitting tool for a community that is a non-stop bitchfest about bad tanks, bad healers, bad DD, bad ... everything.
Holy ****, you had to stop dpsing and use Sleep to save your healer from an add the tank didn't pick up? Better quit now because this run is a bust!
At some level acquiring gear (and skills, teamwork, etc.) that enables you to take on more difficult content is the entire foundation of progression raiding. In that sense, it's obvious to any reasonable player that you can sometimes hurt more than you can help while undergeared, and you should be left behind.
One can also stand GS on its head, however, and identify it as a crutch for players who are unable or unwilling to work around the shortcomings of the people they play with, and players who can't be bothered to learn the game's mechanics or the nuances of their role/job. It puts them in position to be carried by the few good, geared players, rather than have to take part in carrying the many bad, undergeared ones. Aside from participating in world first-style achievements, I would argue that truly good players don't care much about carrying other players as long as the goal is achieved. If that means playing in a way that they wouldn't have to play with other good players, in order to compensate for the shortcoming of their group in certain fights, so be it.
The best use for gear scores IMO is for a group that often runs together to identify areas where they can get more out of their group as a whole, and to identify content they think they can do with the evening's group make-up. ie "We can only take on X tonight, but if we gear up players A and B, we should be able to take on Y with this group next week." Unfortunately, most players would rather just find permanent replacements for players A and B, but that's on the quality of people playing the game, not the tool itself.
I support this because it already exists in indirect form.
If you run Titan HM in level 50 gears from your job quest you will fail. Period - it has nothing to do with skill. I can't complete Titan HM right now because my heal throughput on Succor is too low from my gear level - which is all Strategos (lvl 60) or AK1 (lvl 70).
Perhaps if we booted the people who run in level 50s, people like me with reasonably good gear can get it done.
Well done SE.
@Ayulin:
It's not a "gate" at least not in the way you framed it. As things stand right now, yeah you could queue up with bad gear and get carried. However, there is a point at the game where people just cannot carry a poorly geared player. This is why people will not run with certain gear tiers. There is a distinct point in the game where gear outstrips player skill. If you run Titan HM with level 50s you will fail. Skill is meaningless at that point.
The real argument is that these gear checks exist at all, which you seem to miss. Your excessive negativity and poor argument really make all of your posts lose legitimacy. I don't think you play this game.
GS is a very characteristic themepark feature and blends in superbly with FFARR world.
I mean why would you want people to spend time checking each and every party/raid member manualy when you can have tools to do the job instead?
^___^
I can see the positive points of gear score, but it just invites elitists. Games are meant to be fun and enjoyable, not sport. If people want competitions then join a football club or other sport activity. I just want to log on and enjoy what free time I have with out some wee twit telling me they're better than me.
I generally don't like Gear Score. Typically, I play enough to have an adequate GS, but hate the mentality of "OMG, you suck! You only have XXX score? Geez man, l2play".
Gear Score is a developers way out. It allows them to design content for a base power level instead of truly designing an encounter that is challenging, but not overpowdered.
I'd rather endgame content be progression based with no initial score that the player needs to get. Gamers are not stupid. If we notice that they aren't cutting the mustard, we'll either whine like Vanilla-WoW Warriors or find a way to get past the encounter; even if that means telling the raid members "get better gear" or swapping out the under-performers.
FFS, EQ didn't have a GS back in the day and we still managed to clear raid content.
Raquelis in various games
Played: Everything
Playing: Nioh 2, Civ6
Wants: The World
Anticipating: Everquest Next Crowfall, Pantheon, Elden Ring
Gear score will just only give another tool to elitist who already spam chat with messages like 'must be fully geared, should know all the fights...no scrubs, you will be inspected and kicked out'.... i saw these messages just one week after release..yes one week. Everyone is supposed to be geared to the teeth and know all fights at lvl 50 after one week time.
It just left such a bad taste in my mouth and how end game is going to be. I haven't been lucky enough to find a good FC either so i was pretty much on my own. So i just decided to stay away from end game.
This is the kind of crowd you attract with gear score and stats based gear grind. Wildstar is going the same route and it really disapoints me because i thought MMOS were moving forward and not backward.
Actually elitists invite themselves. They don't need GS tool in their hands to be elitists. However if the tool does the job instead of them telling you gtfo of their raid, than that's actually a step making world less elitistic.
Less in sense that people do (or will with time) accept raid requirement gear lvl of 3488 the same way that everyone accepts personal character levels being requirements to enter instances along the way of leveling. I'm pretty sure the tool alone won't make more elitism by itself, but it can lessen the direct influence that elitis would otherwise have on you. Those same elitists will still be there tho, just less obvious.
edit: As I pointed out on previous page, it is quite a recognizable (I'd even say defining) modern themepark feature, which FFARR is.
i hate gear score - but i agree w you
EQ2 fan sites
Damn, it's now clear what we were missing before the Civil Rights Era ****ed up everything. If public facilities had only had devices that detected your race and refused to admit blacks to "whites only" areas instead of white folk having to tell them to gtfo, that would have been a step toward making the world less racist.
/sarcasm
I don't. You *need* gear to complete the high level stuff. I don't care if you turn in a perfect mechanical performance on Titan HM. If your raw throughput doesn't meet a distinct average, you'll fail - at no real fault of your play style.
If they aren't going to change the dungeons to make it a little more skill based, then we need this. I shouldn't have to carry you and you shouldn't want to be carried.
Hahaha...best post so far. Sir you win this thread and the interwebs.
/standing ovation
^
Wants to make a funny sarcastic joke by bringing in black and white racism history problems in comparison to mmorpg gear scores and pixel elitists.
/facepalm
Also the part of my quote that you conviniently deleted already contains explanation in what (abstract) sense it makes it less elitistic.
To quote myself:
It's a pretty darn good indicator. AF1 and AF2 are 70/90 respectively. Good luck getting significantly better gear that don't have that kind of level on them.
valid point but kills the socialization aspect of mmos
EQ2 fan sites
HOW!? That's the most /facepalm rebuttal I've seen in ages.
We are talking about an instance. If anything the instance itself kills the socialization aspect of MMOs.
you've never carried ingame friends?
I have and see no issues with it
EQ2 fan sites
I hate GS, when Blizz adopted the unfortunately popular player made mod into their interface, it was the beginning of the end.
GS is the ultimate hand holding in MMO's. People should be allowed to be stupid and fail. Same reason I hate the seatbelt beep in cars. I would prefer that stupid people be permitted to die in car accidents through their own choices.
That's what GS is. It's a forced seatbelt so that people who are too dumb or incapable at playing beyond their gear level have a pretty good chance at success. Let them fail.
GS has only proved to me, time and time again, that most people are barely capable of 50%-75% effectiveness with their class.
Good grief. My whole point is that under current settings YOU CANNOT CARRY PEOPLE PAST A CERTAIN POINT. This is why GS is critical.
Also, to answer your total non-sequitor, no - I do not carry friends. I help them understand mechanics and assist where I can to get them what they need to succeed on their own merits.
Aloha Mr Hand !
personally,
I think the best solution is an optional gear lock for content
let players choose if they want to enforce the grouping with a gear score
EQ2 fan sites