Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Fuzzy Avatars Solved! Please re-upload your avatar if it was fuzzy!

The continuing rise of the cash shop

124

Comments

  • 123443211234123443211234 seattle, WAPosts: 244Member
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by Selo
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by DamonVile

    The whole myth of the whale keeping the game afloat is just stupid.

    Look at the largest retail outlets in the world. Are any of them focused on getting 1 or 2 % of their customers to spend millions ?

    No...all of them are about getting millions to spend a bit. That is how f2p does it. The "whale " is just an added bonus.

    Hmm that is a totally different situation.  A retail oufit normally doesn't offer their wares for free.  Therefore every single person who buys something from is their customer.

    If they did offer things free or a good chunk free, it might be a different story.

     

    YOu can visit the store for free, but have to spend cash to buy anything. in a P2P you get acces to the whole collection, while in f2p you only get 1 item.

    in retail I can't use anything for free.  in f2p you get most of the game free. 

    Nah f2p is more like going to a bar that gives you  free drinks and then charges you $50 every time you need to use the bathroom. 

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer ChairPosts: 5,590Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer
     

    It doesn't matter what YOU need. We already know what you get. You play a game until you hit a paywall and then move to the next game. But that's where the best experiences these games have to offer are kept. So you play these games but always getting the 3rd rate experience. And while you are fine with that, to almost everyone else, it's a crappy way to play. Not making any real progression, not having any sense of investment in what should be a long term experience, not caring what you do when, how where or why. Overall it seems less than a generic experience, It seems absolutely mindless to me.

    LOl .. you seem to care about if i have fun or not. Don't worry, i am having loads of fun.

    "Sense of investment"? I don't play games to "invest" and i certainly don't play for "long term experience".

    I finished Marvel Heroes story missions. 30 hours of free fun. I may go back a little, and certainly when they have more content. Now tell me, where is the pay wall?

    BTW, it is more fun than WOW (may be i am sick of WOW) for me, of course.

    It's fine that you can do that since there are companies out there who give that to you, However, the primary reason you have it the way you do, is not because it's the future, but because all the games that have come and gone F2P have sucked bad.

  • PAL-18PAL-18 AnachronoxPosts: 802Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by PAL-18
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by PAL-18
     

    Sure ,but in MMO´s  instead of candys they are selling win.

    Which means pretty sad things.

    Not sad for me. I am having free fun ... how is that sad?

    You need to win someday ,only then you will understand what you were missing.

     

    nah .. how do you know what i need or i don't need?

    So far, i have free fun, and move on. I miss nothing. It is not like there is a lack of entertainment.

    Its not even hard to tell that.

    14,000 posts how you try to tell to the people that you are having fun ? but what is missing is the part where you are having fun.

    Seems like what is fun to you is when you write word fun.

    I see you going outside and telling every stranger you meet that you are now having fun but you dont look like having fun theres no signs of it at all,they will call ambulance.

     

     

    So, did ESO have a successful launch? Yes, yes it did.
    By Ryan Getchell on April 02, 2014.
    **On the radar:http://cyberpunk.net/**

  • Hitman211Hitman211 bannedville, IDPosts: 52Member

    Some people are fine with second rate entertainment so long as its free.

     

    Others not so much.

     

    I get why f2p games exist...I get why some like them.

     

    I don't get why f2p gamers flood into p2p game forums and try to protest...

    You don't see p2p gamers begging f2p games to go p2p...mostly because the f2p games are not very good..but still.

     

    Im nervous about Wildstar and ESO simply because I don't know if these developers will cave in down the road...and once a p2p goes f2p I never go back.

     

  • laseritlaserit Vancouver, BCPosts: 1,949Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by 123443211234

     

    Nah f2p is more like going to a bar that gives you  free drinks and then charges you $50 every time you need to use the bathroom. 

    Haha

     

    Great analogy

    "If you make an ass out of yourself, there will always be someone to ride you." - Bruce Lee

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,316Member Uncommon

    No but you do get them going to f2p forums stating how evil f2p is.

    And you get others going into every forum saying they should all be p2p.

    Same crap different pile.

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • NaughtyPNaughtyP Edmonton, ABPosts: 793Member

    "What goes up, must come down."

    Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.

  • MorrokMorrok MunichPosts: 130Member


    Originally posted by NaughtyP
    "What goes up, must come down."

    Only if it doesn't take off fast enough!
  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,668Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Hitman211

    Some people are fine with second rate entertainment so long as its free.

    Others not so much.

    I get why f2p games exist...I get why some like them.

    I don't get why f2p gamers flood into p2p game forums and try to protest...

    You don't see p2p gamers begging f2p games to go p2p...mostly because the f2p games are not very good..but still.

    Can you link to where you see that happening?

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by NaughtyP

    "What goes up, must come down."

    Yeh. We are seeing sub-only MMOs coming down now.

     

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer
     

    It doesn't matter what YOU need. We already know what you get. You play a game until you hit a paywall and then move to the next game. But that's where the best experiences these games have to offer are kept. So you play these games but always getting the 3rd rate experience. And while you are fine with that, to almost everyone else, it's a crappy way to play. Not making any real progression, not having any sense of investment in what should be a long term experience, not caring what you do when, how where or why. Overall it seems less than a generic experience, It seems absolutely mindless to me.

    LOl .. you seem to care about if i have fun or not. Don't worry, i am having loads of fun.

    "Sense of investment"? I don't play games to "invest" and i certainly don't play for "long term experience".

    I finished Marvel Heroes story missions. 30 hours of free fun. I may go back a little, and certainly when they have more content. Now tell me, where is the pay wall?

    BTW, it is more fun than WOW (may be i am sick of WOW) for me, of course.

    It's fine that you can do that since there are companies out there who give that to you, However, the primary reason you have it the way you do, is not because it's the future, but because all the games that have come and gone F2P have sucked bad.

    Sour grapes?

    Nothing last for ever. I don't need anything to be the future. Who knows what happen with entertainment in 5 years. I may not be even playing games then. What matter is that there are fun f2p games now.

     

  • spaniard81spaniard81 San Antonio, TXPosts: 59Member
    Originally posted by laserit
    Originally posted by 123443211234

    Nah f2p is more like going to a bar that gives you  free drinks and then charges you $50 every time you need to use the bathroom. 

    Haha

    Great analogy

     

    More like...

    F2P = free shots, but if you want pint-size drinks you got to pay.

    B2P = Most drinks (shots & pints) are free after paying an initial one-time free.

    P2P = Most drinks (shots & pints) are free after paying an initial one-time fee, but before you even get to drink any of the "free" drinks you already paid for, you have to pay an entry fee every month, regardless of whether you show up or not.

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer ChairPosts: 5,590Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer
     

    It doesn't matter what YOU need. We already know what you get. You play a game until you hit a paywall and then move to the next game. But that's where the best experiences these games have to offer are kept. So you play these games but always getting the 3rd rate experience. And while you are fine with that, to almost everyone else, it's a crappy way to play. Not making any real progression, not having any sense of investment in what should be a long term experience, not caring what you do when, how where or why. Overall it seems less than a generic experience, It seems absolutely mindless to me.

    LOl .. you seem to care about if i have fun or not. Don't worry, i am having loads of fun.

    "Sense of investment"? I don't play games to "invest" and i certainly don't play for "long term experience".

    I finished Marvel Heroes story missions. 30 hours of free fun. I may go back a little, and certainly when they have more content. Now tell me, where is the pay wall?

    BTW, it is more fun than WOW (may be i am sick of WOW) for me, of course.

    It's fine that you can do that since there are companies out there who give that to you, However, the primary reason you have it the way you do, is not because it's the future, but because all the games that have come and gone F2P have sucked bad.

    Sour grapes?

    Nothing last for ever. I don't need anything to be the future. Who knows what happen with entertainment in 5 years. I may not be even playing games then. What matter is that there are fun f2p games now.

     

    It's not sour grapes. If this was a parallel phenomenon, I'd never even look twice at it. Unfortunately, what we have seen is the greed of developers who are trying to suck money out of gamers instead of operating under the idea that happy gamers spend money. And it's attitudes like yours that tell them they are right.

    Your "happiness" with the games you play is relative.  It's because its not the games that make you happy, it's the fact that you don't have to pay. So picking the best from the worst makes you happy, while you overlook other games that are far better. But then you spread this garbage around like it's the new wave of things to come.

    It's not. SWTOR launched with 2M sales. Those were people wanting and hoping to pay a sub for a great game. They didn't get it. It was the same for Rift. Now we are looking at FF14 as an initial runaway success. If the game can deliver, it will maintain the subs. We are looking at ESO and WildStar Launching with Subs required. If they sell a large number of boxes, and I am sure they will, then it means that these F2P games are just bad games. And if any of those 3 deliver what they promise, they will succeed. Your title, Rise of the cash shop, is really the same as saying the demise of games worth playing.

    You go ahead and keep bellying up to that trash can in the alley and continue to tell everyone how well you are feasting.

  • RocknissRockniss Youngstown, OHPosts: 1,034Member
    It's not a problem for me, I just won't participate. Cash shops galore!!! Have at it. Back when mmorpgs were fun cash shops took a back burner. Now that they are forefront, well that's still fine by me, I have other things I can do and will be doing. One of them will be shaking my head at the cash shop culture that is very much second class compared to the culture of yesterday, of course I will be doing that from the comfort of my fishing boat. Twas fun though while it lasted just like so many of my other hobbies.
  • psiicpsiic Tampa, FLPosts: 943Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by spaniard81
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    So GW2 has one.

    WOW is experimenting with one, and most likely making it into the game.

    Star Citizen is going to have one.

    EQN? I bet EQN will be F2P with a cash shop.

    It is the age of the whales.

    So long as Cash shops do not ruin gameplay I have no issue with them. I think Anet has done a great job in managing the cash shop in GW2 and I believe it is a great model for other devs to follow.

    If none-gameplay-interrupting cash shops mean we get F2P/B2P AAA mmorpgs then I say the more the merrier!

    Oh i agree. I don't have a problem with them. In fact, they are great to extract money from whales to pay for the games.

    I can totally ignore cash shops, which i do in every F2P games i play.

    Problem is, its not whales paying the bills. Mostly it is people with impulsive compulsion disorders, addicts with real spending control issues.  Sadly item malls are designed to exploit people with these issues, the bright lights, loud design, the sparklies, all compulsion triggers. 

    They aren't after a whale that spends $100 a month, they are after the people that max out a credit card each month.

    I am a gambling addict I avoid casinos,  the US government realized online casinos were predators praying on people with compulsive disorders so they made them illegal, suddenly video games added their version of online casinos. 

    Just wish we could go back t a flat monthly sub again.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,668Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by psiic

    Problem is, its not whales paying the bills. Mostly it is people with impulsive compulsion disorders, addicts with real spending control issues.  Sadly item malls are designed to exploit people with these issues, the bright lights, loud design, the sparklies, all compulsion triggers. 

    They aren't after a whale that spends $100 a month, they are after the people that max out a credit card each month.

    I am a gambling addict I avoid casinos,  the US government realized online casinos were predators praying on people with compulsive disorders so they made them illegal, suddenly video games added their version of online casinos. 

    Just wish we could go back t a flat monthly sub again.

    I'm interested in what data you base any of that on, as it contradicts everything I've seen so far.

     

    As for the last line, that's simply feeding a personal illusion that the presence of a monthly sub means the absence of people who will spend beyond that on their game.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Sioux City, IAPosts: 3,828Member


    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Originally posted by oilthu
    I have no issues with how whales spend there money as long as its all done  legally and with no psychological hooks developed by masters of there craft who have studied for the last hundred or so years in how to successfully manipulate a humans emotions, please do not be so naive as to think you, i or anybody is not capable of being manipulated beyond our will - simply step into your local supermarket and realise they spend millions and millions each year on making sure you spend the maximum from the moment you enter.
    And yet a majority of mmo players do not pay.Personally i do not. If there is such a strong schemes that i cannot resist, i have yet to encounter it. For me, it is quite simple just to ignore the cash shop and enjoy the free content.When it is not possible to do so (pay wall, too much ads, or what-not), i move onto the next game. There is always a next game.
    You are usually pretty good with showing numbers. Do you have any showing that the majority (51%+) of F2P players pay nothing? I am sorry if you have already done so previously.

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Sioux City, IAPosts: 3,828Member


    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

    Originally posted by PAL-18

    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    That is a strange definition of affecting.  Typically things you ignore do not affect you.  It's the ones you can't ignore that do affect you.I ignore the rain when I'm inside and was planning on being inside anyway, actually all weather.  I ignore people walking by my window.  I ignore the drone of the lights.Most things that people ignore do not affect them.These sentances are totally contractictory, "When you ignore the cash shop ,thats the moment when it starts to affect you.Its just like that candy store,it doesnt affect you since you just ignore it and enjoy the free content."
    So you ignore the candy store because it doesn't affect you, yet as soon as you ignore it it affects you.  Weird.
    That means you never got any candys and never will ?
    Ok.  But that doesn't mean the lack of it affects you.
    Yes it does. You are sknnier and have better teeth!

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

     


    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Originally posted by oilthu
    I have no issues with how whales spend there money as long as its all done  legally and with no psychological hooks developed by masters of there craft who have studied for the last hundred or so years in how to successfully manipulate a humans emotions, please do not be so naive as to think you, i or anybody is not capable of being manipulated beyond our will - simply step into your local supermarket and realise they spend millions and millions each year on making sure you spend the maximum from the moment you enter.

    And yet a majority of mmo players do not pay.

     

    Personally i do not. If there is such a strong schemes that i cannot resist, i have yet to encounter it. For me, it is quite simple just to ignore the cash shop and enjoy the free content.

    When it is not possible to do so (pay wall, too much ads, or what-not), i move onto the next game. There is always a next game.


    You are usually pretty good with showing numbers. Do you have any showing that the majority (51%+) of F2P players pay nothing? I am sorry if you have already done so previously.

     

    It has been done so quite a few times. Here is a 2012 report.

    http://www.superdataresearch.com/blog/global-mmo-games-spending-exceeds-12bn/

    And i quote "Of all 50 million MMO gamers in the US, 23 million spend money on free-to-play or subscription MMOs". So a bit less than half pay, and by definition, a majority (over 25M) do not.

     

  • laseritlaserit Vancouver, BCPosts: 1,949Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

     


    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Originally posted by oilthu
    I have no issues with how whales spend there money as long as its all done  legally and with no psychological hooks developed by masters of there craft who have studied for the last hundred or so years in how to successfully manipulate a humans emotions, please do not be so naive as to think you, i or anybody is not capable of being manipulated beyond our will - simply step into your local supermarket and realise they spend millions and millions each year on making sure you spend the maximum from the moment you enter.

    And yet a majority of mmo players do not pay.

     

    Personally i do not. If there is such a strong schemes that i cannot resist, i have yet to encounter it. For me, it is quite simple just to ignore the cash shop and enjoy the free content.

    When it is not possible to do so (pay wall, too much ads, or what-not), i move onto the next game. There is always a next game.


    You are usually pretty good with showing numbers. Do you have any showing that the majority (51%+) of F2P players pay nothing? I am sorry if you have already done so previously.

     

    It has been done so quite a few times. Here is a 2012 report.

    http://www.superdataresearch.com/blog/global-mmo-games-spending-exceeds-12bn/

    And i quote "Of all 50 million MMO gamers in the US, 23 million spend money on free-to-play or subscription MMOs". So a bit less than half pay, and by definition, a majority (over 25M) do not.

     

    What would be interesting to find out is.

     

    If the average P2P player spends say $15 a month, what does the average F2P player pay. The average, includes those that pay nothing.

    "If you make an ass out of yourself, there will always be someone to ride you." - Bruce Lee

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Sioux City, IAPosts: 3,828Member


    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    It has been done so quite a few times. Here is a 2012 report.http://www.superdataresearch.com/blog/global-mmo-games-spending-exceeds-12bn/And i quote "Of all 50 million MMO gamers in the US, 23 million spend money on free-to-play or subscription MMOs". So a bit less than half pay, and by definition, a majority (over 25M) do not.
    Not quite what I was looking for. That does not answer my question, does it. How many F2P players spend money in cash shops, not how many spend money in MMOs.

    I am having a tough time finding a report that is this specific. Most I see are gaming in general and buying virtual goods, or like yours, not making a distinction between F2P and P2P just lumping all gaming into one big pile.

    What I am trying to find out is if the "whales support my gaming" is a valid claim. If over 50% of F2P players buy an item in the cash shop, than it is not a "whale" thing.

    It is hard for me to believe that a small percentage of players spend enough every month in the cash shops to warrant numbers like the averaging of monthly revenue as each and every player pays more than the usual sub fee. I could be wrong, but that just does not add up for me.

    It could all also be irrelevant :)

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

    Not quite what I was looking for. That does not answer my question, does it. How many F2P players spend money in cash shops, not how many spend money in MMOs.

     

    I am having a tough time finding a report that is this specific. Most I see are gaming in general and buying virtual goods, or like yours, not making a distinction between F2P and P2P just lumping all gaming into one big pile.

    That kind of detailed data probably costs money.

    Go to newzoo.com and contact their rep. They may have access to such data. Free reports are usually not detailed, for the reason that if they give away the farm, who would buy the detailed data?

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

    What I am trying to find out is if the "whales support my gaming" is a valid claim. If over 50% of F2P players buy an item in the cash shop, than it is not a "whale" thing.

    It is hard for me to believe that a small percentage of players spend enough every month in the cash shops to warrant numbers like the averaging of monthly revenue as each and every player pays more than the usual sub fee. I could be wrong, but that just does not add up for me.

     

    from an old post of mine . focusing on whales.

    http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/195806/chasing_the_whale_examining_the_.php

    Some snippets.

    - some whales will spend thousands, even 10s of thousands of dollars on a game.

    - pretty much solidify the convention wisdom that most players don't play.

    "While you might guess that Hi-Rez doesn't make as much money as some of these more exploitative studios, it's notable that around 10 percent of Tribes: Ascend players choose to pay money -- a figure that is much larger than the 1, 3, and 5 percents that I've heard from the majority of other free-to-play developers. Harris reasons that this is down to trust, and players feeling like they are getting their money's worth." ... we are talking about sub-10% here .. many much lower.

    - some devs exploits players, some don't and those don't believe that the brand is more valuable.

    - a small number (since only a small % of whales, which themselves is of a small percentage of the paying customers) of players got exploited BAD. However, some don't even regret it.

  • Yyrkoon_PoMYyrkoon_PoM Reseda, CAPosts: 150Member

    While not  a focused study on MMOs here is a Q1 2013 report from Playnomics. (http://www.playnomics.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Playnomics-Q1-Engagement-Report.pdf)

     

    Page 6 has the economic data for a study of 1.7M new players out of a 50M player pool of social, casual and mobile game players. In that first quarter only 14K out of the 1.7M purchased anything. Granted that this is not a MMO report, but I would not be surprised if the figures noted in the report change significantly in a MMO.

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Sioux City, IAPosts: 3,828Member


    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Originally posted by AlBQuirky
    What I am trying to find out is if the "whales support my gaming" is a valid claim. If over 50% of F2P players buy an item in the cash shop, than it is not a "whale" thing.It is hard for me to believe that a small percentage of players spend enough every month in the cash shops to warrant numbers like the averaging of monthly revenue as each and every player pays more than the usual sub fee. I could be wrong, but that just does not add up for me.
    from an old post of mine . focusing on whales.http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/195806/chasing_the_whale_examining_the_.phpSome snippets.- some whales will spend thousands, even 10s of thousands of dollars on a game.- pretty much solidify the convention wisdom that most players don't play."While you might guess that Hi-Rez doesn't make as much money as some of these more exploitative studios, it's notable that around 10 percent of Tribes: Ascend players choose to pay money -- a figure that is much larger than the 1, 3, and 5 percents that I've heard from the majority of other free-to-play developers. Harris reasons that this is down to trust, and players feeling like they are getting their money's worth." ... we are talking about sub-10% here .. many much lower.- some devs exploits players, some don't and those don't believe that the brand is more valuable.- a small number (since only a small % of whales, which themselves is of a small percentage of the paying customers) of players got exploited BAD. However, some don't even regret it.
    But do they spend 10,000 every month?

    Some simple number crunching...
    a F2P game has 1,000,000 players. In order for them to say "each player spends about 20.00 every month", they have to be making 20,000,000 every month. That would take 2000 "whales" (.2%) spending 10,000 every month to make those numbers. I find that hard to believe, but certainly possible.

    Of course, the numbers can be switched around and the percentage of paying players upped from the paltry .2% in my example, even having varying numbers by varying paying players to make up the original 20,000,000 every month needed in my original example.

    I could just be naive, finding it hard to believe that these few players are paying enough to make the numbers mesh with what is being said. I guess I am thinking that a much larger percentage of F2P players spend money in cash shops than people think. Which in turn makes F2P even more appealing to developers and publishers.

    Again, it is probably all irrelevant, but I find it curiously interesting :) Bottom line is players who do not pay anything still get their MMO for free.

    As to the other post, I see what you're saying about having to pay from a report that is that specific. No F2P there! lol

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

Sign In or Register to comment.