Originally posted by Jairoe03 This thread's title was a bit misleading and appeared that the OP never took off his rose-colored glasses. It implied (to myself at least) that maybe he wanted to remind people about the negatives that the old MMO and not so much about the all too commonly "remembered" positives. The OP goes on to defining how an MMO SHOULD be which I believe is entirely wrong, and trust me...I'm the patient type as well. If an environment is going to be established, it should cater to the majority of a given population as best it can and unfortunately, the patient exploratory variety appears to be in a minority. It's somewhat like politics, you can't agree or cater to everyone's ideas so all you can do is try to compromise and cater to the greater majority. And if we really just polished the mechanics were there, the potential of finding anything very new or innovative is taken away as well. If you are in fact of the "patient, curious, adventurous" type of player, you should very well understand and allow developers to also explore the MMO industry and MMO development realm and be equally patient as it is being said in your game playin as well. Clinging onto old mechanics (that not everyone likes especially) and merely enhancing them will never be the path to progressing the MMO genre.
A genre should remain a genre. The MMORPG genre is changing due to the larger population, not into a unique genre unlike any other, but it's molding into other genres simply because nobody enjoys specifically MMOs anymore. The majority of MMO players now adays are people who don't understand what the genre was meant to be and who cry out on forums like these that these MMOs should be more like their games, completely diminishing the experience that MMO players used to enjoy.
Basically, the MMO players are the niche group, instead of catering to that niche group the developers just cater to the entire gaming genre completely removing what defines MMOs.
Instead of not playing MMOs, people nowadays feel like they have the right to just clusterf**k into our genre with a mob of people into entirely different genres and have these games revolve around them.
Simply MMOs are diminishing as a whole. Not every gamer HAS to enjoy MMORPG's if you dont like them, dont play them.
Never fear, your dream MMO will be here.... just give me a decade or two to finely hone my Game development and design abilities as well as start a Game Design Studio. Thank you for your patience.
Originally posted by LizardEgyptThe games don't need to go back to their original, tedious, long-grinded roots to be successful community-driven games again.
I agree. Just have good story content, sell it, and let players finish and move on. Produce more content to sell them to get them to pay more. GW1, GW2 are doing so, as well as many SP games with DLCs. MMOs should learn something from that.
Are you joking. Dude, PLAY YOUR SINGLEPLAYER GAMES! an MMORPG shouldn't have singleplayer elements, you obviously need to play another genre of game because you complain about everything that made MMORPG's what they are. This post is so awefully just literally incorrect I cannot argue how false this is. This post is literally false. Like your basically saying that MMORPGs should become god of war or uncharted, like i seriously cannot believe you said this.
Well since every MMO that has ever existed, including the ones that arguably started the genre have had single player elements. I would yours is false.
Yeah.
And it is silly to try to tell others what to do on the internet. I *am* playing MMORPGs like a solo game. There is nothing anyone else can do about it.
I'm explaining my oppinions allowing everyone to look into my thoughts, IK there is nothing I can do but the internet is a great place to share thoughts, so i did the right thing.
Never fear, your dream MMO will be here.... just give me a decade or two to finely hone my Game development and design abilities as well as start a Game Design Studio. Thank you for your patience.
Originally posted by DrCokePepsi A genre should remain a genre. The MMORPG genre is changing due to the larger population, not into a unique genre unlike any other, but it's molding into other genres simply because nobody enjoys specifically MMOs anymore. The majority of MMO players now adays are people who don't understand what the genre was meant to be and who cry out on forums like these that these MMOs should be more like their games, completely diminishing the experience that MMO players used to enjoy.
Basically, the MMO players are the niche group, instead of catering to that niche group the developers just cater to the entire gaming genre completely removing what defines MMOs.
Instead of not playing MMOs, people nowadays feel like they have the right to just clusterf**k into our genre with a mob of people into entirely different genres and have these games revolve around them.
Simply MMOs are diminishing as a whole. Not every gamer HAS to enjoy MMORPG's if you dont like them, dont play them.
The real question is what made your opinion the definitive authority of what MMOs are and aren't. I believe this sort of thing generally is defined by society as a whole mostly because we, as human beings, share and socialize and have to be able to keep things in as much perspective as possible.
MMO players as a niche group, I usually don't say this, but you are wrong in that fact because quite obviously it became a much larger general population because you continue to go on and admit that the developers are catering to a much larger group of people that apparently are equally interested in playing MMO's as you are. So MMO players as niche players is an invalid statement, the population has become quite large.
The real diminishment to the genre IMO are posts like these that encourage going backwards instead of forwards and doesn't allow the developers to reach out to try new things. I am actually glad MMO developers are exploring different avenues more these days as opposed to a few years ago when WoW was really hot. I can say the MMO genre has made much bigger strides than most other genres (probably because its much newer) rather than reskinning the same old mechanics over and over again like other genres tend to do. I see nothing wrong with what developers are doing and the MMORPG genre that has formed to this day. I look forward to see what else others will come up with.
Originally posted by jpnz The pre-WOW age was so awesome where mmo players were considered 'not normal' by the general public and gamers shunned them. /sarcasmI don't think that was the 'golden age' that many here think it was.
Whether your unfortunate enough to shun someone because of a personal interest or not doesn't matter, what does matter is these 'shunned' people you mention enjoyed these game, whether they're interests are niche or not, they're genre shouldn't delete itself and just start catering to every other game genre.
That 'golden age' was a golden age because these game were showing true potential the only thing that limited them was technology at the time. You see these old games as ancient crap because they simply didn't have that technology, but the fact that UO and Asheron's Call is still around just screams that it WAS that great. If only companies now had tried to embrace those old mechanics and simply enhance them rather than scrap and revolutionize the genre into something completely different, games now would be utterly astonishing. You would be agreeing with me most likely had you been able to experience a solid sandbox.
Never fear, your dream MMO will be here.... just give me a decade or two to finely hone my Game development and design abilities as well as start a Game Design Studio. Thank you for your patience.
Originally posted by Jairoe03 Originally posted by DrCokePepsi A genre should remain a genre. The MMORPG genre is changing due to the larger population, not into a unique genre unlike any other, but it's molding into other genres simply because nobody enjoys specifically MMOs anymore. The majority of MMO players now adays are people who don't understand what the genre was meant to be and who cry out on forums like these that these MMOs should be more like their games, completely diminishing the experience that MMO players used to enjoy. Basically, the MMO players are the niche group, instead of catering to that niche group the developers just cater to the entire gaming genre completely removing what defines MMOs. Instead of not playing MMOs, people nowadays feel like they have the right to just clusterf**k into our genre with a mob of people into entirely different genres and have these games revolve around them.Simply MMOs are diminishing as a whole. Not every gamer HAS to enjoy MMORPG's if you dont like them, dont play them.
The real question is what made your opinion the definitive authority of what MMOs are and aren't. I believe this sort of thing generally is defined by society as a whole mostly because we, as human beings, share and socialize and have to be able to keep things in as much perspective as possible.
MMO players as a niche group, I usually don't say this, but you are wrong in that fact because quite obviously it became a much larger general population because you continue to go on and admit that the developers are catering to a much larger group of people that apparently are equally interested in playing MMO's as you are. So MMO players as niche players is an invalid statement, the population has become quite large.
The real diminishment to the genre IMO are posts like these that encourage going backwards instead of forwards and doesn't allow the developers to reach out to try new things. I am actually glad MMO developers are exploring different avenues more these days as opposed to a few years ago when WoW was really hot. I can say the MMO genre has made much bigger strides than most other genres (probably because its much newer) rather than reskinning the same old mechanics over and over again like other genres tend to do. I see nothing wrong with what developers are doing and the MMORPG genre that has formed to this day. I look forward to see what else others will come up with.
It's not an opinion. A genre has parameters and the MMORPG genre's parameters have been so breached and violated no one can fully define them anymore. Whether the human race is some grand scheme of perfect socialization and generosity as you say it is or not, you still need to take a grand scheme and divide it into categories so your not left with a clusterf**k of information. The MMORPG's category has simply been wrecked by the gaming populace as a whole due to their demands to change this genre into whatever they want it to be.
"MMO players as a niche group, I usually don't say this, but you are wrong in that fact because quite obviously it became a much larger general population because you continue to go on and admit that the developers are catering to a much larger group of people that apparently are equally interested in playing MMO's as you are. So MMO players as niche players is an invalid statement, the population has become quite large." -But I am right. The MMORPG population is very niche. The MMO population has simply been ransacked by hordes of casual gamers or gamers of other genres who call themselves MMO gamers. The actual population of MMORPG gamers who enjoyed these games and the genre for what it was designed to be is very niche in itself.
And no-one wants to go back in time. I certainly don't but I want games NOW to be perfected version or enhancements on what games back in the day were TRYING to achieve. If this happened games now would be beyond anything these cash-shops and themeparks are introducing these casual players to. Games used to try and achieve the ultimate sandbox, but when these games got old instead of continuing that ambition games ditched that for the cash. It wasn't the player preference that preferred this, it was the developers taunting casuals to come stomp into the genre. We have the technology now to actually achieve these old MMORPG's ambitions, but the new community stomped our genre out before the opportunity arose.
The only new mechanics and routes that have been 'explored' are cash-shops, p2w and more bait to have the casuals scurry on over. The same gameplay mechanics still exist, but in simplified, instantly-gratifying ways.
It's a shame.
Never fear, your dream MMO will be here.... just give me a decade or two to finely hone my Game development and design abilities as well as start a Game Design Studio. Thank you for your patience.
^^ agree. You can expand a genre - e.g expand football mgmt games with career mgmt or controlling all players in a match. But what if it was proven that a football mgmt game would appeal to a bigger demographic if your players could to street fighter style attacks (lol). Well know the game appeals to more groups-except the original player base, what's more it IS NOT a representation of the football mgmt genre.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Originally posted by DrCokePepsi It's not an opinion. A genre has parameters and the MMORPG genre's parameters have been so breached and violated no one can fully define them anymore. Whether the human race is some grand scheme of perfect socialization and generosity as you say it is or not, you still need to take a grand scheme and divide it into categories so your not left with a clusterf**k of information. The MMORPG's category has simply been wrecked by the gaming populace as a whole due to their demands to change this genre into whatever they want it to be.
"MMO players as a niche group, I usually don't say this, but you are wrong in that fact because quite obviously it became a much larger general population because you continue to go on and admit that the developers are catering to a much larger group of people that apparently are equally interested in playing MMO's as you are. So MMO players as niche players is an invalid statement, the population has become quite large." -But I am right. The MMORPG population is very niche. The MMO population has simply been ransacked by hordes of casual gamers or gamers of other genres who call themselves MMO gamers. The actual population of MMORPG gamers who enjoyed these games and the genre for what it was designed to be is very niche in itself.
And no-one wants to go back in time. I certainly don't but I want games NOW to be perfected version or enhancements on what games back in the day were TRYING to achieve. If this happened games now would be beyond anything these cash-shops and themeparks are introducing these casual players to. Games used to try and achieve the ultimate sandbox, but when these games got old instead of continuing that ambition games ditched that for the cash. It wasn't the player preference that preferred this, it was the developers taunting casuals to come stomp into the genre. We have the technology now to actually achieve these old MMORPG's ambitions, but the new community stomped our genre out before the opportunity arose.
The only new mechanics and routes that have been 'explored' are cash-shops, p2w and more bait to have the casuals scurry on over. The same gameplay mechanics still exist, but in simplified, instantly-gratifying ways.
It's a shame.
So where again did you answer the question on what made YOU the leading authority of what MMORPG is and isn't? What exactly are the parameters that apparently we have to follow in order to call something one thing or another? Is Borderlands a shooter or an RPG? Which genre did that fit under? A genre is a general category to loosely describe where something might belong but it isn't limited or restricted by the genre itself. MMO just means, a game that supports massive quantities of people usually under a single shared environment. I'm sorry to say, but everything you stated is merely your own opinion and you are just throwing it around onto others without even hearing what anyone else has to say or really fully disputing it.
Like the part about MMO players as a niche group, again according to who...you? Sure it might be true if that niche group only had you in that group, yes a 1 person group is a very niche group but some people like myself don't share that opinion. My opinion is that MMO's aren't exclusive and are in fact very inclusive, hence those multitudes of people that you don't include into YOUR MMO niche group, are in fact, by my opinion part of a greater MMO non-niche group and a much bigger population.
This is all entirely funny and odd because you seem to want to focus around the social elements of the earlier MMOs as defining what the MMO genre, in your opinion of course, should encapsulate. A very inclusive, people SHOULD have to play with others. However when you share this opinion on a forum and many people do not share that, you tend not to be so inclusive and actually hypocritically exclude people out of their own opinions (believing your opinions are facts) and excluding people out of being part of this special MMO niche player club that truly doesn't exist. Again, what makes and doesn't make an MMO player and what made you the person that was allowed to define it?
Originally posted by Bladestrom ^^ agree. You can expand a genre - e.g expand football mgmt games with career mgmt or controlling all players in a match. But what if it was proven that a football mgmt game would appeal to a bigger demographic if your players could to street fighter style attacks (lol). Well know the game appeals to more groups-except the original player base, what's more it IS NOT a representation of the football mgmt genre.
Football isn't a genre, it actually fits under a genre that many people like to call Sports. Hence why a genre called sports games exist and if an idea of street brawling football games actually existed, it would probably be fitted under the Sports genre because despite having fighting mechanics, the core of the game still fits under football rules outside of street fighting and hence would be much more of the same strain as other sports games. So you just listed a specific type of game that fits under a genre and tried to pass it off as an analogy to a genre. The application is entirely wrong.
I didn't say football, I said football Management, which is a genre. sigh.
Edit better clarify I refer to Football management games, i.e games where you manage football, but not in real life, that wouldn't be a game genre (post is in a gaming forum)
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
I asked before what those parameters were. So far a few have answered but their answers were either not indicative of the genre back then and only of a specific game, or the issues they present still exist today.
So what were those parameters?
All you stated was, it was a feeling you had. Of course others have the same or simliar feelings towards newer games, which would go to my 2nd point, the issues they present still exist today.
Sorry but a genre's parameters are not defined by your particular feelings about it.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Originally posted by jpnz The pre-WOW age was so awesome where mmo players were considered 'not normal' by the general public and gamers shunned them. /sarcasmI don't think that was the 'golden age' that many here think it was.
Whether your unfortunate enough to shun someone because of a personal interest or not doesn't matter, what does matter is these 'shunned' people you mention enjoyed these game, whether they're interests are niche or not, they're genre shouldn't delete itself and just start catering to every other game genre.
That 'golden age' was a golden age because these game were showing true potential the only thing that limited them was technology at the time. You see these old games as ancient crap because they simply didn't have that technology, but the fact that UO and Asheron's Call is still around just screams that it WAS that great. If only companies now had tried to embrace those old mechanics and simply enhance them rather than scrap and revolutionize the genre into something completely different, games now would be utterly astonishing. You would be agreeing with me most likely had you been able to experience a solid sandbox.
Yet you don't want to understand that the only reason that "golden age" existed at all was because game designers were trying to appeal to the only existing audience of online gamers at the time. The second broadband Internet went mainstream, the old-school gamers were left behind because they didn't matter anymore. They just didn't represent a significant percentage of the marketplace. They went from being almost the entirety of the online gaming marketplace to less than 1% in a few short years. Had broadband always been widely available, those old-school games would never have been made at all.
Business caters to their marketplace. You aren't it. Deal with it.
Originally posted by DrCokePepsi ...The majority of MMO players are lost in MMORPG limbo waiting for a legitmate MMORPG to come out..
I am in agreement with this.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon. In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
I asked before what those parameters were. So far a few have answered but their answers were either not indicative of the genre back then and only of a specific game, or the issues they present still exist today.
So what were those parameters?
All you stated was, it was a feeling you had. Of course others have the same or simliar feelings towards newer games, which would go to my 2nd point, the issues they present still exist today.
Sorry but a genre's parameters are not defined by your particular feelings about it.
Trying to define a genre by parameters is counter productive ultimately because it is synergies and classic examples that make a genre. Mario is an example of a game that made a genre, Doom, Civ, Call of Duty are others. Notice all of these examples stay true to their original genre through the years. You could try and break down each of these games into 'things' but there is no need, we understand what genre they are, they don't try to be all things to all men (and diminish as a result)
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Originally posted by Jairoe03 Originally posted by DrCokePepsi It's not an opinion. A genre has parameters and the MMORPG genre's parameters have been so breached and violated no one can fully define them anymore. Whether the human race is some grand scheme of perfect socialization and generosity as you say it is or not, you still need to take a grand scheme and divide it into categories so your not left with a clusterf**k of information. The MMORPG's category has simply been wrecked by the gaming populace as a whole due to their demands to change this genre into whatever they want it to be. "MMO players as a niche group, I usually don't say this, but you are wrong in that fact because quite obviously it became a much larger general population because you continue to go on and admit that the developers are catering to a much larger group of people that apparently are equally interested in playing MMO's as you are. So MMO players as niche players is an invalid statement, the population has become quite large." -But I am right. The MMORPG population is very niche. The MMO population has simply been ransacked by hordes of casual gamers or gamers of other genres who call themselves MMO gamers. The actual population of MMORPG gamers who enjoyed these games and the genre for what it was designed to be is very niche in itself.And no-one wants to go back in time. I certainly don't but I want games NOW to be perfected version or enhancements on what games back in the day were TRYING to achieve. If this happened games now would be beyond anything these cash-shops and themeparks are introducing these casual players to. Games used to try and achieve the ultimate sandbox, but when these games got old instead of continuing that ambition games ditched that for the cash. It wasn't the player preference that preferred this, it was the developers taunting casuals to come stomp into the genre. We have the technology now to actually achieve these old MMORPG's ambitions, but the new community stomped our genre out before the opportunity arose. The only new mechanics and routes that have been 'explored' are cash-shops, p2w and more bait to have the casuals scurry on over. The same gameplay mechanics still exist, but in simplified, instantly-gratifying ways.It's a shame.
So where again did you answer the question on what made YOU the leading authority of what MMORPG is and isn't? What exactly are the parameters that apparently we have to follow in order to call something one thing or another? Is Borderlands a shooter or an RPG? Which genre did that fit under? A genre is a general category to loosely describe where something might belong but it isn't limited or restricted by the genre itself. MMO just means, a game that supports massive quantities of people usually under a single shared environment. I'm sorry to say, but everything you stated is merely your own opinion and you are just throwing it around onto others without even hearing what anyone else has to say or really fully disputing it.
Like the part about MMO players as a niche group, again according to who...you? Sure it might be true if that niche group only had you in that group, yes a 1 person group is a very niche group but some people like myself don't share that opinion. My opinion is that MMO's aren't exclusive and are in fact very inclusive, hence those multitudes of people that you don't include into YOUR MMO niche group, are in fact, by my opinion part of a greater MMO non-niche group and a much bigger population.
This is all entirely funny and odd because you seem to want to focus around the social elements of the earlier MMOs as defining what the MMO genre, in your opinion of course, should encapsulate. A very inclusive, people SHOULD have to play with others. However when you share this opinion on a forum and many people do not share that, you tend not to be so inclusive and actually hypocritically exclude people out of their own opinions (believing your opinions are facts) and excluding people out of being part of this special MMO niche player club that truly doesn't exist. Again, what makes and doesn't make an MMO player and what made you the person that was allowed to define it?
As for this, I could reply with my last answer, I myself am not the grand bookkeeper of game genre parameters, and could simply reword my last response to try and reflect my views, but I myself understand that the MMORPG genre is being wrecked because It's category/genre defining standpoints have been blurred beyond recognition.
I'll recite how the genre should be about exploring a living world and creating another version of yourself in a game to experience the community and explore the world with that community is the general definition of the genre, give or take minor/ medium quantities of change and revolution(all this i mentioned in my original post), but what it has become now is just a poor example of greed in society by the developers and the unfortunate collapse of the genre due to the casual player base claiming their territory in our land.
Originally posted by Jairoe03 Originally posted by Bladestrom ^^ agree. You can expand a genre - e.g expand football mgmt games with career mgmt or controlling all players in a match. But what if it was proven that a football mgmt game would appeal to a bigger demographic if your players could to street fighter style attacks (lol). Well know the game appeals to more groups-except the original player base, what's more it IS NOT a representation of the football mgmt genre.
Football isn't a genre, it actually fits under a genre that many people like to call Sports. Hence why a genre called sports games exist and if an idea of street brawling football games actually existed, it would probably be fitted under the Sports genre because despite having fighting mechanics, the core of the game still fits under football rules outside of street fighting and hence would be much more of the same strain as other sports games. So you just listed a specific type of game that fits under a genre and tried to pass it off as an analogy to a genre. The application is entirely wrong.
And as for this, Categories my friend. Categories, sub-categories, things have to be classified as something, calling football NOT a genre and then saying it's just governed by sports is incorrect, as football itself is a category (genre) of sports. This is what has happened to gaming, instead of having different sports, the MMORPG's individual category under 'sports' has been blurred to the point where it has just become a generalization of all sports rather than it's own.
and of course i called an MMORPG a sport as an example it is clearly not a sport, this goes to whatever wise-ass who would have pointed this out
Never fear, your dream MMO will be here.... just give me a decade or two to finely hone my Game development and design abilities as well as start a Game Design Studio. Thank you for your patience.
I asked before what those parameters were. So far a few have answered but their answers were either not indicative of the genre back then and only of a specific game, or the issues they present still exist today.
So what were those parameters?
All you stated was, it was a feeling you had. Of course others have the same or simliar feelings towards newer games, which would go to my 2nd point, the issues they present still exist today.
Sorry but a genre's parameters are not defined by your particular feelings about it.
Trying to define a genre by parameters is counter productive ultimately because it is synergies and classic examples that make a genre. Mario is an example of a game that made a genre, Doom, Civ, Call of Duty are others. Notice all of these examples stay true to their original genre through the years. You could try and break down each of these games into 'things' but there is no need, we understand what genre they are, they don't try to be all things to all men (and diminish as a result)
You might be right, however he made the claim that the genre had specific parameters, and new MMO's don't have these parameters. Therefore he must have some idea what these parameters are.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
I absolutely don't agree. The player marketplace is not the same today as it was back then. People need to stop pretending that it is. As soon as MMOs went mainstream, the old-school players were completely dwarfed by the incoming mainstream playerbase. There just aren't enough old-school players to make that kind of game financially viable anymore.
The genie is out of the bottle, it's never going to go back in, no matter how many people wish it would happen.
Agreed. Though I would argue that if any new MMO that wishes any degree of success (and they all do, realistically speaking), then the future is to cater to more niche markets and make the game P2P. The poster child for this type of success is still EVE, imo. Yes, they have mainstreamed to some degree, but at it's foundation it's still catering to a hardcore niche market. Marc Jacobs seems to be going this route, which looks like so far will be the correct decision. ESO, on the other hand and even though being P2P, is trying to be all things to all people (the proverbial WoW mentality) and will unltimately fail, again imo, but all signs are pointing to true SWTOR failure - big budget, disregard to what made the IP popular in the first place, WoW inspired, etc. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think so.
I make spreadsheets at work - I don't want to make them for the games I play.
Agreed. Though I would argue that if any new MMO that wishes any degree of success (and they all do, realistically speaking), then the future is to cater to more niche markets and make the game P2P.
nah .. the future is to make online games other than MMOs. The big success is LoL, and WoT, which now many categorize as MMOs. They are f2p, and some here don't even consider them MMOs.
The real diminishment to the genre IMO are posts like these that encourage going backwards instead of forwards and doesn't allow the developers to reach out to try new things. I am actually glad MMO developers are exploring different avenues more these days as opposed to a few years ago when WoW was really hot. I can say the MMO genre has made much bigger strides than most other genres (probably because its much newer) rather than reskinning the same old mechanics over and over again like other genres tend to do.
Um. What? Every new MMO is the same damn thing with a different skin. I wake up, I go see someone who tells me I'm the last remaining hope for blah blah blah, I'm the hero of the story. Oh, but there's another thousand behind me that's also the last remaining hope and the hero of the story. I go to area A, I do quest chain 1, 2 and 3, I progress to area B, I do quest chain 4, 5 and 6, I go to area C..
It's the same game repackaged with different graphics. There hasn't been any 'strides' since World of Warcraft, because all the greedy devs want a slice of the WoW pie and are making carbon copies. Modern MMO's fear change, they don't want to risk building something different because it might not sell and they'll lose their investment. Look at ESO for a perfect example; instead of sticking to the vision of Elder Scrolls, it's yet another reskin of the standard MMO.
Originally posted by DrCokePepsi As for this, I could reply with my last answer, I myself am not the grand bookkeeper of game genre parameters, and could simply reword my last response to try and reflect my views, but I myself understand that the MMORPG genre is being wrecked because It's category/genre defining standpoints have been blurred beyond recognition. I'll recite how the genre should be about exploring a living world and creating another version of yourself in a game to experience the community and explore the world with that community is the general definition of the genre, give or take minor/ medium quantities of change and revolution(all this i mentioned in my original post), but what it has become now is just a poor example of greed in society by the developers and the unfortunate collapse of the genre due to the casual player base claiming their territory in our land. // And as for this, Categories my friend. Categories, sub-categories, things have to be classified as something, calling football NOT a genre and then saying it's just governed by sports is incorrect, as football itself is a category (genre) of sports. This is what has happened to gaming, instead of having different sports, the MMORPG's individual category under 'sports' has been blurred to the point where it has just become a generalization of all sports rather than it's own. and of course i called an MMORPG a sport as an example it is clearly not a sport, this goes to whatever wise-ass who would have pointed this out
So in regards to your first post, you answer the question of what made you the authority actually what defines MMO should be by not actually answering the question. No where in your posts states why your opinion is so highly placed above others (with no real justification), its just your opinion stated over and over again without any supporting argument. It's kind of the meat of debates is the argument (which you have) and the support (which you don't have). There's no basis listed to why MMO's should be the way you stated aside from the fact that you said so. I'll take your lack of answering my question not once but twice as concession to the fact that all of this is purely opinion and what you state isn't fact despite you trying to present it as "fact".
The misperception of greed btw is also derived out of lack of understanding of basic economics, which I'll forgive you for but shouldn't be grounds on your own perceived "destruction of a genre" which is actually flourishing and expanding ever further.
In your regards to your second argument in how genre is actually defined within the video game realm just presents ignorance. Like a politician, your arguing in pure semantics when I merely pointed out an obvious flaw in the poster's argument. The analogy wasn't applied correctly because it wasn't exemplifying a whole genre being redefined. Answer me one question, what genre does NFL Blitz or NBA Jam fall under? It changes rules and doesn't follow the same premise as actual football or basketball but yet its still covered under the same category and genre...sports.
There isn't a football management genre or football genre, otherwise it'll be a genre categorizing literally 3-5 games. I want to think genre is a bit more encompassing than that. Even the sports genre within video games doesn't cover that many games compared to RPG, Action or FPS. So again, the application of that poster's analogy was just wrong and doesn't properly support the argument. Just pointing out a fallacy within the actual logic itself. And quite obviously you have no idea or at least didn't maintain perspective on what I was posting so why respond (to that post) anyway when you totally took it outside of its perspective.
My opinion is that MMO's aren't exclusive and are in fact very inclusive, hence those multitudes of people that you don't include into YOUR MMO niche group, are in fact, by my opinion part of a greater MMO non-niche group and a much bigger population.
The problem being that these multitudes of people don't actually want to play an MMO, they want a single player game with a large amount of content. It's actually been stated on the solo vs group play thread multiple times from multiple people; most soloers are playing these games due to the large content and regular updates, not for the multiplayer aspects. The perfect example from this thread is quoted by narrius': "I don't really care what devs want me to do. If they don't want me to solo through content and leave, don't make it possible. If they make it possible, i will take advantage of it.".
So the developers who have started catering to these multitudes of people have actually dumbed down and altered the genre to the point where it now, does indeed, resemble a single player game. Combat is easy to where you can solo multiple mobs at a time, quests are meant to be done solo, and dungeons are such a rarity that they're seen perhaps once every 10 or so levels. Raids exist but they're at the end of the game, where the solo players can then leave and let the MMO players get on with it.
And yet these people want more; they want the same loot as people who run dungeons and raids, they want to be able to solo the boss of a raid, they basically want a massive single player game. These aren't people who want an MMORPG, they're people looking for a single player game, and in the process that 'niche group' of people who actually DO want an MMORPG are being pushed further and further aside until the genre we came into looks completely different to the one we're in now.
Originally posted by Jairoe03 The real diminishment to the genre IMO are posts like these that encourage going backwards instead of forwards and doesn't allow the developers to reach out to try new things. I am actually glad MMO developers are exploring different avenues more these days as opposed to a few years ago when WoW was really hot. I can say the MMO genre has made much bigger strides than most other genres (probably because its much newer) rather than reskinning the same old mechanics over and over again like other genres tend to do.
Um. What? Every new MMO is the same damn thing with a different skin. I wake up, I go see someone who tells me I'm the last remaining hope for blah blah blah, I'm the hero of the story. Oh, but there's another thousand behind me that's also the last remaining hope and the hero of the story. I go to area A, I do quest chain 1, 2 and 3, I progress to area B, I do quest chain 4, 5 and 6, I go to area C..
It's the same game repackaged with different graphics. There hasn't been any 'strides' since World of Warcraft, because all the greedy devs want a slice of the WoW pie and are making carbon copies. Modern MMO's fear change, they don't want to risk building something different because it might not sell and they'll lose their investment. Look at ESO for a perfect example; instead of sticking to the vision of Elder Scrolls, it's yet another reskin of the standard MMO.
If you overly generalize a category or a genre of video games, you can say every game is a reskin of the previous games within the genre. MMO's actually have more to explore than most other genres and if you can't pick out the subtleties and differences in these games, then I believe you are selling yourself short or MMO's just aren't your thing, not as a shot against you but an honest opinion. I see many differences between the MMO's. Yes each of these MMO's are going to play the same way IN GENERAL, but the differences from each MMO is how the systems are implemented, how its brought together, the content etc.
Sure I'm the hero in FFXIV, but World of Warcraft can't make me feel like a hero within the Final Fantasy world/settings. There's something inherently unique that FF brings in its lore, style and monsters that no other game provides. Sure EVE Online has an Auction House just like every other MMO because I sell things to other people in a shared market, but it actually is a very deep "auction house" or economy. Guild Wars 2 has warriors, wizards and archers, but its roles are entirely defined differently compared to most other MMO's. You have to look at the details for the differences and not the generalities.
By your logic, Call of Duty is a reskin of Counter Strike, all you do is shoot people in the face and fight bad guys. Call of Duty is a reskin of Goldeneye 007 because thats all you do is shoot people in the face and kill bad guys. But obviously most people can tell there's differences. All I did in those couple sentences about FPS was GENERALIZE each game. You see how people can easily blur things together based on perspective? A genre exists because it generally explains a type of video game, a type of experience. The differences are in the details. If you refuse to acknowledge that or don't feel like trying to look for it yourself, then your interest obviously isn't large enough for that type of game and it probably will not fulfill your need for entertainment as sufficiently as something else.
Originally posted by UsualSuspect ....
So the developers who have started catering to these multitudes of people have actually dumbed down and altered the genre to the point where it now, does indeed, resemble a single player game. Combat is easy to where you can solo multiple mobs at a time, quests are meant to be done solo, and dungeons are such a rarity that they're seen perhaps once every 10 or so levels. Raids exist but they're at the end of the game, where the solo players can then leave and let the MMO players get on with it.
And yet these people want more; they want the same loot as people who run dungeons and raids, they want to be able to solo the boss of a raid, they basically want a massive single player game. These aren't people who want an MMORPG, they're people looking for a single player game, and in the process that 'niche group' of people who actually DO want an MMORPG are being pushed further and further aside until the genre we came into looks completely different to the one we're in now.
And who are you to deny those people the experience that they want? Who are you to say that they are playing for the wrong reasons? Its funny you mention all these things on how these things can be played "single player" but I still find these people looking for guilds/companies to be a part of. I still find myself REQUIRING a group to complete pieces of the game that I otherwise can't explore on my own.
So, I don't really see where that MMO's are entirely single player. Sure, parts of the game can be done by yourself, but I already experienced the game that required me to group to get anywhere in the game aka DAOC or Ultima Online. You don't experience the whole game once you hit max level. I don't know anyone that wants to solo a boss or raid. Maybe you do, but that person doesn't represent everyone just like your opinion on what MMORPG's should and shouldn't be isn't shared by everyone. Hence why MMORPG's currently exists in the state its in today because your opinion is in fact a minority.
The old school MMO players just have to accept the evolution of the genre rather than fight for what already existed. I will repeat again, I would rather not go backward, taking steps forward is a much better approach to progress.
Comments
A genre should remain a genre. The MMORPG genre is changing due to the larger population, not into a unique genre unlike any other, but it's molding into other genres simply because nobody enjoys specifically MMOs anymore. The majority of MMO players now adays are people who don't understand what the genre was meant to be and who cry out on forums like these that these MMOs should be more like their games, completely diminishing the experience that MMO players used to enjoy.
Basically, the MMO players are the niche group, instead of catering to that niche group the developers just cater to the entire gaming genre completely removing what defines MMOs.
Instead of not playing MMOs, people nowadays feel like they have the right to just clusterf**k into our genre with a mob of people into entirely different genres and have these games revolve around them.
Simply MMOs are diminishing as a whole. Not every gamer HAS to enjoy MMORPG's if you dont like them, dont play them.
Never fear, your dream MMO will be here....
just give me a decade or two to finely hone my Game development
and design abilities as well as start a Game Design Studio.
Thank you for your patience.
Never fear, your dream MMO will be here....
just give me a decade or two to finely hone my Game development
and design abilities as well as start a Game Design Studio.
Thank you for your patience.
Nothing wrong with expressing your opinion at all.
There is something wrong and very different between these statments, "I think your wrong," and "This post is literally false".
I don't think that was the 'golden age' that many here think it was.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
The real question is what made your opinion the definitive authority of what MMOs are and aren't. I believe this sort of thing generally is defined by society as a whole mostly because we, as human beings, share and socialize and have to be able to keep things in as much perspective as possible.
MMO players as a niche group, I usually don't say this, but you are wrong in that fact because quite obviously it became a much larger general population because you continue to go on and admit that the developers are catering to a much larger group of people that apparently are equally interested in playing MMO's as you are. So MMO players as niche players is an invalid statement, the population has become quite large.
The real diminishment to the genre IMO are posts like these that encourage going backwards instead of forwards and doesn't allow the developers to reach out to try new things. I am actually glad MMO developers are exploring different avenues more these days as opposed to a few years ago when WoW was really hot. I can say the MMO genre has made much bigger strides than most other genres (probably because its much newer) rather than reskinning the same old mechanics over and over again like other genres tend to do. I see nothing wrong with what developers are doing and the MMORPG genre that has formed to this day. I look forward to see what else others will come up with.
That 'golden age' was a golden age because these game were showing true potential the only thing that limited them was technology at the time. You see these old games as ancient crap because they simply didn't have that technology, but the fact that UO and Asheron's Call is still around just screams that it WAS that great. If only companies now had tried to embrace those old mechanics and simply enhance them rather than scrap and revolutionize the genre into something completely different, games now would be utterly astonishing. You would be agreeing with me most likely had you been able to experience a solid sandbox.
Never fear, your dream MMO will be here....
just give me a decade or two to finely hone my Game development
and design abilities as well as start a Game Design Studio.
Thank you for your patience.
The real question is what made your opinion the definitive authority of what MMOs are and aren't. I believe this sort of thing generally is defined by society as a whole mostly because we, as human beings, share and socialize and have to be able to keep things in as much perspective as possible.
MMO players as a niche group, I usually don't say this, but you are wrong in that fact because quite obviously it became a much larger general population because you continue to go on and admit that the developers are catering to a much larger group of people that apparently are equally interested in playing MMO's as you are. So MMO players as niche players is an invalid statement, the population has become quite large.
The real diminishment to the genre IMO are posts like these that encourage going backwards instead of forwards and doesn't allow the developers to reach out to try new things. I am actually glad MMO developers are exploring different avenues more these days as opposed to a few years ago when WoW was really hot. I can say the MMO genre has made much bigger strides than most other genres (probably because its much newer) rather than reskinning the same old mechanics over and over again like other genres tend to do. I see nothing wrong with what developers are doing and the MMORPG genre that has formed to this day. I look forward to see what else others will come up with.
It's not an opinion. A genre has parameters and the MMORPG genre's parameters have been so breached and violated no one can fully define them anymore. Whether the human race is some grand scheme of perfect socialization and generosity as you say it is or not, you still need to take a grand scheme and divide it into categories so your not left with a clusterf**k of information. The MMORPG's category has simply been wrecked by the gaming populace as a whole due to their demands to change this genre into whatever they want it to be.
"MMO players as a niche group, I usually don't say this, but you are wrong in that fact because quite obviously it became a much larger general population because you continue to go on and admit that the developers are catering to a much larger group of people that apparently are equally interested in playing MMO's as you are. So MMO players as niche players is an invalid statement, the population has become quite large." -But I am right. The MMORPG population is very niche. The MMO population has simply been ransacked by hordes of casual gamers or gamers of other genres who call themselves MMO gamers. The actual population of MMORPG gamers who enjoyed these games and the genre for what it was designed to be is very niche in itself.
And no-one wants to go back in time. I certainly don't but I want games NOW to be perfected version or enhancements on what games back in the day were TRYING to achieve. If this happened games now would be beyond anything these cash-shops and themeparks are introducing these casual players to. Games used to try and achieve the ultimate sandbox, but when these games got old instead of continuing that ambition games ditched that for the cash. It wasn't the player preference that preferred this, it was the developers taunting casuals to come stomp into the genre. We have the technology now to actually achieve these old MMORPG's ambitions, but the new community stomped our genre out before the opportunity arose.
The only new mechanics and routes that have been 'explored' are cash-shops, p2w and more bait to have the casuals scurry on over. The same gameplay mechanics still exist, but in simplified, instantly-gratifying ways.
It's a shame.
Never fear, your dream MMO will be here....
just give me a decade or two to finely hone my Game development
and design abilities as well as start a Game Design Studio.
Thank you for your patience.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
So where again did you answer the question on what made YOU the leading authority of what MMORPG is and isn't? What exactly are the parameters that apparently we have to follow in order to call something one thing or another? Is Borderlands a shooter or an RPG? Which genre did that fit under? A genre is a general category to loosely describe where something might belong but it isn't limited or restricted by the genre itself. MMO just means, a game that supports massive quantities of people usually under a single shared environment. I'm sorry to say, but everything you stated is merely your own opinion and you are just throwing it around onto others without even hearing what anyone else has to say or really fully disputing it.
Like the part about MMO players as a niche group, again according to who...you? Sure it might be true if that niche group only had you in that group, yes a 1 person group is a very niche group but some people like myself don't share that opinion. My opinion is that MMO's aren't exclusive and are in fact very inclusive, hence those multitudes of people that you don't include into YOUR MMO niche group, are in fact, by my opinion part of a greater MMO non-niche group and a much bigger population.
This is all entirely funny and odd because you seem to want to focus around the social elements of the earlier MMOs as defining what the MMO genre, in your opinion of course, should encapsulate. A very inclusive, people SHOULD have to play with others. However when you share this opinion on a forum and many people do not share that, you tend not to be so inclusive and actually hypocritically exclude people out of their own opinions (believing your opinions are facts) and excluding people out of being part of this special MMO niche player club that truly doesn't exist. Again, what makes and doesn't make an MMO player and what made you the person that was allowed to define it?
Football isn't a genre, it actually fits under a genre that many people like to call Sports. Hence why a genre called sports games exist and if an idea of street brawling football games actually existed, it would probably be fitted under the Sports genre because despite having fighting mechanics, the core of the game still fits under football rules outside of street fighting and hence would be much more of the same strain as other sports games. So you just listed a specific type of game that fits under a genre and tried to pass it off as an analogy to a genre. The application is entirely wrong.
I didn't say football, I said football Management, which is a genre. sigh.
Edit better clarify I refer to Football management games, i.e games where you manage football, but not in real life, that wouldn't be a game genre (post is in a gaming forum)
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
I asked before what those parameters were. So far a few have answered but their answers were either not indicative of the genre back then and only of a specific game, or the issues they present still exist today.
So what were those parameters?
All you stated was, it was a feeling you had. Of course others have the same or simliar feelings towards newer games, which would go to my 2nd point, the issues they present still exist today.
Sorry but a genre's parameters are not defined by your particular feelings about it.
Yet you don't want to understand that the only reason that "golden age" existed at all was because game designers were trying to appeal to the only existing audience of online gamers at the time. The second broadband Internet went mainstream, the old-school gamers were left behind because they didn't matter anymore. They just didn't represent a significant percentage of the marketplace. They went from being almost the entirety of the online gaming marketplace to less than 1% in a few short years. Had broadband always been widely available, those old-school games would never have been made at all.
Business caters to their marketplace. You aren't it. Deal with it.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
I am in agreement with this.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
Trying to define a genre by parameters is counter productive ultimately because it is synergies and classic examples that make a genre. Mario is an example of a game that made a genre, Doom, Civ, Call of Duty are others. Notice all of these examples stay true to their original genre through the years. You could try and break down each of these games into 'things' but there is no need, we understand what genre they are, they don't try to be all things to all men (and diminish as a result)
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
So where again did you answer the question on what made YOU the leading authority of what MMORPG is and isn't? What exactly are the parameters that apparently we have to follow in order to call something one thing or another? Is Borderlands a shooter or an RPG? Which genre did that fit under? A genre is a general category to loosely describe where something might belong but it isn't limited or restricted by the genre itself. MMO just means, a game that supports massive quantities of people usually under a single shared environment. I'm sorry to say, but everything you stated is merely your own opinion and you are just throwing it around onto others without even hearing what anyone else has to say or really fully disputing it.
Like the part about MMO players as a niche group, again according to who...you? Sure it might be true if that niche group only had you in that group, yes a 1 person group is a very niche group but some people like myself don't share that opinion. My opinion is that MMO's aren't exclusive and are in fact very inclusive, hence those multitudes of people that you don't include into YOUR MMO niche group, are in fact, by my opinion part of a greater MMO non-niche group and a much bigger population.
This is all entirely funny and odd because you seem to want to focus around the social elements of the earlier MMOs as defining what the MMO genre, in your opinion of course, should encapsulate. A very inclusive, people SHOULD have to play with others. However when you share this opinion on a forum and many people do not share that, you tend not to be so inclusive and actually hypocritically exclude people out of their own opinions (believing your opinions are facts) and excluding people out of being part of this special MMO niche player club that truly doesn't exist. Again, what makes and doesn't make an MMO player and what made you the person that was allowed to define it?
As for this, I could reply with my last answer, I myself am not the grand bookkeeper of game genre parameters, and could simply reword my last response to try and reflect my views, but I myself understand that the MMORPG genre is being wrecked because It's category/genre defining standpoints have been blurred beyond recognition.
I'll recite how the genre should be about exploring a living world and creating another version of yourself in a game to experience the community and explore the world with that community is the general definition of the genre, give or take minor/ medium quantities of change and revolution(all this i mentioned in my original post), but what it has become now is just a poor example of greed in society by the developers and the unfortunate collapse of the genre due to the casual player base claiming their territory in our land.
Football isn't a genre, it actually fits under a genre that many people like to call Sports. Hence why a genre called sports games exist and if an idea of street brawling football games actually existed, it would probably be fitted under the Sports genre because despite having fighting mechanics, the core of the game still fits under football rules outside of street fighting and hence would be much more of the same strain as other sports games. So you just listed a specific type of game that fits under a genre and tried to pass it off as an analogy to a genre. The application is entirely wrong.
And as for this, Categories my friend. Categories, sub-categories, things have to be classified as something, calling football NOT a genre and then saying it's just governed by sports is incorrect, as football itself is a category (genre) of sports. This is what has happened to gaming, instead of having different sports, the MMORPG's individual category under 'sports' has been blurred to the point where it has just become a generalization of all sports rather than it's own.
and of course i called an MMORPG a sport as an example it is clearly not a sport, this goes to whatever wise-ass who would have pointed this out
Never fear, your dream MMO will be here....
just give me a decade or two to finely hone my Game development
and design abilities as well as start a Game Design Studio.
Thank you for your patience.
You might be right, however he made the claim that the genre had specific parameters, and new MMO's don't have these parameters. Therefore he must have some idea what these parameters are.
Agreed. Though I would argue that if any new MMO that wishes any degree of success (and they all do, realistically speaking), then the future is to cater to more niche markets and make the game P2P. The poster child for this type of success is still EVE, imo. Yes, they have mainstreamed to some degree, but at it's foundation it's still catering to a hardcore niche market. Marc Jacobs seems to be going this route, which looks like so far will be the correct decision. ESO, on the other hand and even though being P2P, is trying to be all things to all people (the proverbial WoW mentality) and will unltimately fail, again imo, but all signs are pointing to true SWTOR failure - big budget, disregard to what made the IP popular in the first place, WoW inspired, etc. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think so.
I make spreadsheets at work - I don't want to make them for the games I play.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Obviously not the tens of millions who are actually playing MMORPGs.
nah .. the future is to make online games other than MMOs. The big success is LoL, and WoT, which now many categorize as MMOs. They are f2p, and some here don't even consider them MMOs.
They are much bigger successes than Eve.
Um. What? Every new MMO is the same damn thing with a different skin. I wake up, I go see someone who tells me I'm the last remaining hope for blah blah blah, I'm the hero of the story. Oh, but there's another thousand behind me that's also the last remaining hope and the hero of the story. I go to area A, I do quest chain 1, 2 and 3, I progress to area B, I do quest chain 4, 5 and 6, I go to area C..
It's the same game repackaged with different graphics. There hasn't been any 'strides' since World of Warcraft, because all the greedy devs want a slice of the WoW pie and are making carbon copies. Modern MMO's fear change, they don't want to risk building something different because it might not sell and they'll lose their investment. Look at ESO for a perfect example; instead of sticking to the vision of Elder Scrolls, it's yet another reskin of the standard MMO.
So in regards to your first post, you answer the question of what made you the authority actually what defines MMO should be by not actually answering the question. No where in your posts states why your opinion is so highly placed above others (with no real justification), its just your opinion stated over and over again without any supporting argument. It's kind of the meat of debates is the argument (which you have) and the support (which you don't have). There's no basis listed to why MMO's should be the way you stated aside from the fact that you said so. I'll take your lack of answering my question not once but twice as concession to the fact that all of this is purely opinion and what you state isn't fact despite you trying to present it as "fact".
The misperception of greed btw is also derived out of lack of understanding of basic economics, which I'll forgive you for but shouldn't be grounds on your own perceived "destruction of a genre" which is actually flourishing and expanding ever further.
In your regards to your second argument in how genre is actually defined within the video game realm just presents ignorance. Like a politician, your arguing in pure semantics when I merely pointed out an obvious flaw in the poster's argument. The analogy wasn't applied correctly because it wasn't exemplifying a whole genre being redefined. Answer me one question, what genre does NFL Blitz or NBA Jam fall under? It changes rules and doesn't follow the same premise as actual football or basketball but yet its still covered under the same category and genre...sports.
There isn't a football management genre or football genre, otherwise it'll be a genre categorizing literally 3-5 games. I want to think genre is a bit more encompassing than that. Even the sports genre within video games doesn't cover that many games compared to RPG, Action or FPS. So again, the application of that poster's analogy was just wrong and doesn't properly support the argument. Just pointing out a fallacy within the actual logic itself. And quite obviously you have no idea or at least didn't maintain perspective on what I was posting so why respond (to that post) anyway when you totally took it outside of its perspective.
The problem being that these multitudes of people don't actually want to play an MMO, they want a single player game with a large amount of content. It's actually been stated on the solo vs group play thread multiple times from multiple people; most soloers are playing these games due to the large content and regular updates, not for the multiplayer aspects. The perfect example from this thread is quoted by narrius': "I don't really care what devs want me to do. If they don't want me to solo through content and leave, don't make it possible. If they make it possible, i will take advantage of it.".
So the developers who have started catering to these multitudes of people have actually dumbed down and altered the genre to the point where it now, does indeed, resemble a single player game. Combat is easy to where you can solo multiple mobs at a time, quests are meant to be done solo, and dungeons are such a rarity that they're seen perhaps once every 10 or so levels. Raids exist but they're at the end of the game, where the solo players can then leave and let the MMO players get on with it.
And yet these people want more; they want the same loot as people who run dungeons and raids, they want to be able to solo the boss of a raid, they basically want a massive single player game. These aren't people who want an MMORPG, they're people looking for a single player game, and in the process that 'niche group' of people who actually DO want an MMORPG are being pushed further and further aside until the genre we came into looks completely different to the one we're in now.
If you overly generalize a category or a genre of video games, you can say every game is a reskin of the previous games within the genre. MMO's actually have more to explore than most other genres and if you can't pick out the subtleties and differences in these games, then I believe you are selling yourself short or MMO's just aren't your thing, not as a shot against you but an honest opinion. I see many differences between the MMO's. Yes each of these MMO's are going to play the same way IN GENERAL, but the differences from each MMO is how the systems are implemented, how its brought together, the content etc.
Sure I'm the hero in FFXIV, but World of Warcraft can't make me feel like a hero within the Final Fantasy world/settings. There's something inherently unique that FF brings in its lore, style and monsters that no other game provides. Sure EVE Online has an Auction House just like every other MMO because I sell things to other people in a shared market, but it actually is a very deep "auction house" or economy. Guild Wars 2 has warriors, wizards and archers, but its roles are entirely defined differently compared to most other MMO's. You have to look at the details for the differences and not the generalities.
By your logic, Call of Duty is a reskin of Counter Strike, all you do is shoot people in the face and fight bad guys. Call of Duty is a reskin of Goldeneye 007 because thats all you do is shoot people in the face and kill bad guys. But obviously most people can tell there's differences. All I did in those couple sentences about FPS was GENERALIZE each game. You see how people can easily blur things together based on perspective? A genre exists because it generally explains a type of video game, a type of experience. The differences are in the details. If you refuse to acknowledge that or don't feel like trying to look for it yourself, then your interest obviously isn't large enough for that type of game and it probably will not fulfill your need for entertainment as sufficiently as something else.
And who are you to deny those people the experience that they want? Who are you to say that they are playing for the wrong reasons? Its funny you mention all these things on how these things can be played "single player" but I still find these people looking for guilds/companies to be a part of. I still find myself REQUIRING a group to complete pieces of the game that I otherwise can't explore on my own.
So, I don't really see where that MMO's are entirely single player. Sure, parts of the game can be done by yourself, but I already experienced the game that required me to group to get anywhere in the game aka DAOC or Ultima Online. You don't experience the whole game once you hit max level. I don't know anyone that wants to solo a boss or raid. Maybe you do, but that person doesn't represent everyone just like your opinion on what MMORPG's should and shouldn't be isn't shared by everyone. Hence why MMORPG's currently exists in the state its in today because your opinion is in fact a minority.
The old school MMO players just have to accept the evolution of the genre rather than fight for what already existed. I will repeat again, I would rather not go backward, taking steps forward is a much better approach to progress.