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I think the issue here is more about context and "main-streaming". I like South Park. I love the fact that South Park has no sacred cows and that they'll poke fun of anybody. Heck....South Park has poked fun of things I identify with.... and while I may have been a bit annoyed or even mildly offended at those particular episodes.... I also recognize that the "price of admission" to South Park is having a thick enough skin to tolerate the barbs aimed at you. Fair is fair and nobody gets spared...that's just what something like South Park is all about.
At the same time, I wouldn't find "South Park" type of content acceptable at a venue that is supposed to be more general and inclusive.....say like a baseball game. I wouldn't really expect it or tolerate it there....and I wouldn't have any problem with groups or individuals boycotting that baseball team for indulging in that at that venue....that's thier right of expression too.
So the real question is......what is PAX really intended to be?.....and who's trying to make it into that?.....what do the organizers expect it or want it to be?
If it wants to be a more limited "South Park humor" fans type experience.....then that's fine....and no one should expect anything more or complain about offense content in that venue. If it's trying to be a more general gaming and comic type thing....more all inclusive.....then it should probably expect to have to self-censor or deal with the consequences. YMMV.
Originally posted by victorbjr Originally posted by MMOWarrior You guys just don't get it.. and sadly so many of you think it's cute and funny to perpetuate a hostile and uncomfortable space for women gamers.. this article wasn't about the old comic strip it was about the disgusting community reaction that is repeating itself right here..
Basically, this. I was expecting some kind of backlash to the article, but if readers don't quite understand, I'll spell it out a bit better.
The acceptance of a lack of empathy to people who have suffered psychological trauma is a bit disturbing to me, because it just shows the geek community isn't as enlightened or as grown-up as it'd like to be. I want the gaming and geek communities to be better, and calling out cruddy behavior among people, whether they're public figures or people in expos, should be an important step towards ensuring that the community is a safe space for more people.
This "safe place" concept is what is at the very root of the problem. Real safety and security flows from internal sources, not external. Those who seek to escape their personal responsibility for their own personal safety and security, are aiding and abetting the corruption of the very nature of what it is to be an individual, rather than simply a faceless, voiceless member of a collective.
PAX Prime is currently over run by roving packs of "enforcers" just to pander to those who insist on the luxury of not being responsible. All under the PC concept of making it a more a "welcoming" and "comfortable", not to mention "safer" environment.
On the other hand, a mature adult, understands personal responsibility and how it extends and influences personal interactions with others. Its a shame that we have so few of those around these days.
Originally posted by Calerxes Originally posted by Drakynn Originally posted by Calerxes Originally posted by Drakynn Originally posted by PAL-18 Originally posted by Sovrath Originally posted by PAL-18 What happens in games happens in peoples minds and there they should stay.
And if I'm understanding you correctly I would agree. I love it and it's a great sentiment.
However, there are going to be people who point to you and say "because you play x games you condone their messages of violence and misogyny and the use of drugs and etc (whatever the game has).
And I don't believe for one minute you do.
So that's why I don't believe in censorship. I just believe in people staying out of places they don't want to be in and I believe in people saying their piece but not seeking to force it down anyone's throat.
Thats what i tried to say to Mr.Spock.
Lets imagine that im on the bus for example and say to my friend that "lets rob this bus and drive it to China" as a joke, not a good one but anyways,then i stand up and tell that to everyone.
Would be better to e-mail my terrible joke to the people who would like to hear it.
They tried to teach childrens with those methods still at 80´s and we got wiser and figured out that it does not work it actually has the opposite effect.
I dont know which one would be better,censorhip or let everybody to say /do what they are thinking.
I prefer censorship.
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety"
I believe Kierkegaard would more attribute this to the other side of the argument.People using their freedom of speech to say others should not be allowed to make statements.He was talking about using a freedom t deny yourself other freedoms.
To me it means thinking before you open your mouth, its a simple as that, freedom is not about being able to do what we please when we please, modern society works under the rule of law. The point being, can you get your point across without denigrating a section of society with crass and sensationalist rhetoric for a cheap laugh? if not you are not as intelligent and insightful as you think you are. If we are not empathetic towards others then we might as well shut up modern civilization as it has failed. We all see the immature behaviour of the MMO communities daily in many MMO's and isn't nice when you hit upon a mature community with mature rules? Freedom without rules isn't freedom its anarchy.
Well that's an interpretation and certainly has merits.I don't think the joke in question was particularly funny and rape wasn't the focus of the joke at all and could of been replaced by something else since western history has shown that people would not bat an eye if he had said any other violent act of a non sexual nature.
That being said there was nothing illegal in what was said and no laws broken.We also can't force people to shut up just because we think they are crass or sensationalist.Freedom of speech isn't just for the intellectual elite or polite.As long as it doesn't wander into slander or liable then they have the right to say it.We don;t have to like it and we can say we don't like it and we can rebut whatever they say but we can't stop them saying it.
If we sanitize everything just to make sure no one is offended at all times then we end up saying nothing at all ever.
Originally posted by Drakynn Originally posted by Calerxes Snip!
Its not about sanitizing the world, would you joke about the chemical attacks on the Syrian people in a public forum with children involved? its about thinking about what you do and when you do it. Penny Arcade is not a back street adult comedy club where anything goes and you know what you are in for before you go in, its a very popular website and convention. There is a time and place for things and their joke and response to criticism was ill conceived and immature. Also along with statute law there is unwritten law of common decency and expressing yourself in the right places. I don't want to stop people making jokes but as I've said there is a time and place for such things.
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
Originally posted by Calerxes Originally posted by Drakynn Originally posted by Calerxes Snip!
I don't dispute that their response is immature...they are known for immature,knee jerk responses and for bad taste jokes.Their audience knows this too.I'm not even a fan of the comic strip but I am a fan of PAX and their charity work.Villifying them for the times they stray to close or over your personal lines is just as Knee jerk and immature.
The Joke again is not centered on rape and was made ages ago so when is the right time?Again I agree their responses were immature but then people defend Tasos,Phil Fish,CliffyB and other game developers when they make immature,stupid statements and no one bats an eyelid.
Once again I submit had they used decapitation instead of alluded to rape none of the moral crusaders here would of said a thing.
Also people re making jokes about the situation in Syria,most have been in good taste but many not so.As said before jokes are a way we use to lessen the horror of things.
It doesn't mean like other posters here have said that there is a lack of empathy on anyone's part,bad taste yes but lack of empathy no.But again that sort of villification of anyone with a different opinion is typical of these forums and certain societies.
Originally posted by Drakynn Originally posted by Calerxes Originally posted by Drakynn Originally posted by Calerxes Snip!
Again its not about vilifying people its about being responsible and with the exposure Penny Arcade has now its irresponsible of them to even think like that. Why not have a PAXadult with a caveat that anything goes and make it over 18, that would be responsible. Thinking you can get away with saying anything anywhere isn't, its why we have ratings and watersheds on TV, in Film and in Games? we don't want to stop people writing and saying risque things its just there is a time and place for it, modern society shouldn't be like a schoolyard should it? The young are still as impressionable as ever and they are exposed to more and more stimulus through the Internet than ever and certainly more than I was as a teenager. Its immaturity that needs to be addressed not satire.
Originally posted by Calerxes Again its not about vilifying people its about being responsible and with the exposure Penny Arcade has now its irresponsible of them to even think like that. Why not have a PAXadult with a caveat that anything goes and make it over 18, that would be responsible. Thinking you can get away with saying anything anywhere isn't, its why we have ratings and watersheds on TV, in Film and in Games? we don't want to stop people writing and saying risque things its just there is a time and place for it, modern society shouldn't be like a schoolyard should it? The young are still as impressionable as ever and they are exposed to more and more stimulus through the Internet than ever and certainly more than I was as a teenager. Its immaturity that needs to be addressed not satire.
Now we are venturing into different territory.As a parent I will say this it's a parent's responsibility to monitor and regulate what their child sees on t.v and any other media and to explain things to a child when he/she does see something inappropriate which happens eventually even without media.
Now media does have a responsibility to clearly show what content is included in what is being viewed for sure and websites apart from porn are not very good at doing that because there is no regulation and regulation is very difficult on this medium.But that why there are nanny programs for the net and why you should be looking at your child's browsing history and setting rules for their usage.
I am not a supporter of over regulation so people can regulate their responsibilities to others.
Also have you read most of this thread?It's mostly villification.
Originally posted by MMOWarrior You guys just don't get it.. and sadly so many of you think it's cute and funny to perpetuate a hostile and uncomfortable space for women gamers.. this article wasn't about the old comic strip it was about the disgusting community reaction that is repeating itself right here..
Why only hostile to female gamers? You DO realize that there are many men out there who have suffered from rape, right? Rape doesn't just happen to females, and I think you're being incredibly short-sighted & perhaps a bit misandrous (or is it misandrist?) with your generalization. Maybe instead of criticizing other people's supposed lack of empathy, you yourself show actually show some to the thousands of men out there who suffer the same emotional scars as anyone else who has had unwanted intercourse forced upon them.
See how quickly I turned your own statement against you? That's the kind of garbage the PC crowd does. Almost nobody here is displaying a lack of empathy; rather we're simply pointing out that having to 'scrub' every single thing we say so as not to offend anybody is completely unrealistic, if not outright impossible.
I'm not advocating that certain people / groups of people should be antagonized (unless they deserve it) deliberately, but I'm not going to spend the rest of my life constantly looking over my shoulder (metaphorically speaking, OFC) before I say something to make sure nobody will be offended by it.