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Why waste time with useless loot?

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  • MorrokMorrok MunichPosts: 130Member


    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    It's rather interesting to see how WOW'd MMO gamers have become

    *sigh*
    And it's quite interesting too how easily some people try to elevate themselves above others by using terms like "become wow'd".
    It'd almost have earned you a block from my side had you not followed up by the next post where you at least make a tangible point that shows where your misinterpretation comes from:

    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    The OP presents the case that it is currently serves no use to the player other than just, well.. junk to sell.

    I haven't seen the OP make such a claim.
    What i saw is "Shouldn't by now all loot be useful in someway to use at least for crafting?".
    And my answer to that is: why?
    Would it really make sense for EVERY item to have a use in crafting?
    Or wouldn't exactly THAT mean "just to help sell bag slots?" yas the OP claimed?

    I mean, if it's useful for crafting, wouldn't you keep it anyways, to either work with your own chars on that tradeskill or to sell it to other players?
    Where's the difference to selling to a vendor if you're going to sell it anyways?
    And if you keep it, what's the OP's point?
    After all, vendor trash gets sold off right at the next possible NPC (or the NPC that pays the most if there's a difference).


    Again:
    Vendor trash isn't "useless".

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member

    Test your dev staff and ask them.

    "Hey, is there any way you can make autoloot ignore grey items?"

    If they're an intended time sink, that answer will always be some variation of "no", with or without a plausible-sounding smokescreen.

     

    Oh, wait, modern MMOs, you can't ask a dev anything and get an answer, in most cases. Sorry bout that.

    Of course, you could always think of it as an EvilEmpire plot, intended to force you into crafting/buying/acquiring bigger bags regularly.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • SoulStainSoulStain Tampa, FLPosts: 202Member

    I don't mind vendor trash. I hate more the fact that in most MMOs...when you're sent to get "x" number of "y" body parts of animal "z". That animal "z" may actually be lacking that particular and sometimes very vital body part..

    My prime example would be in pre-Cata WOW. There was a quest to get a shit-load of skulls from the Hillsbrad Farmers. Yet apparently...many didn't have skulls.I know I would've taken care not to strike the skull so it would not be destroyed during my blood thirsty assault . I can only conclude that they are apparently a community long perpetuated by inbreeding. So long that many are born sans-skull. I Imagine a bunch of floppy-headed farmers stumbling aimlessly as one non-socketed eye looks this way and another looks that way..their brain sloshing around inside their skin-bag noggin like a gigantic, lone testicle wearing a straw hat (which would , for obvious reasons, always fall off)

    I guess imagination gets me through stupid stuff like this and useless loot.

  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Oxon Hill, MDPosts: 1,147Member Uncommon

    How is cutting off a monkeys butt cheek immersive for your adventurer?  It comes off to me as game play tactic of the developer not something reasonable my character would do.  Not only that who actually would buy that crap? 

     

    Out of all the time sinks that there are or that have been removed from MMORPG's item junk is not one that's seems to make an impactful or positive effect on the game.

     

    My point was that  in all the years we've played MMORPG's why not just have reasonable loot that can be recycled into crafting at the least.  Kill a lion and get a pelt that could be used in a recipe.  Why am I looting lion teeth and why does a bar tender want to pay me any money for it?  Some people have a weird notion of immersion.  

  • ArglebargleArglebargle Austin, TXPosts: 1,413Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Hedeon
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Morrok

    But vendor trash is all BUT useless.

    As was said above, it's another form of gold/plat that drops off mobs.
    And as such QUITE useful!

     

    It's rather interesting to see how WOW'd MMO gamers have become, that the majority in this thread can only see this in a binary manner - the presence or absence of junk loot - unaware that the same goals can be reached with loot that actually serves a purpose in the context of the game. Don't buy into the diseased rat's liver franchise. It's a sinister plot! :)

     

    would love if the NPCs actually would make comments like this in games, oh god no, no more of those livers, cant you just grind them and make a paté or something! ><

    anyway trash loot is just there to give people a feeling that they gain something from killing stuff - some gold added to your account which you hardly notice doesnt really give this feeling, and ofc to waste peoples time...

    In some games the loot is merely a metagame stand-in for XP or money.   I think of it as a shallow gamification.   When a chicken drops a staff, it messes with my sense of immersion.  Unless it was a big chicken.  And it was beating me with a staff.

     

    A lot of it just comes down to developer conveniance.  I imagine it  is far more difficult to design a quasi-working economy, where the wolf you killed can be harvested for saleable, useable parts (if you have the proper hunting style skills), with or without the player crafter element. 

    If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.

  • ArglebargleArglebargle Austin, TXPosts: 1,413Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal

    How is cutting off a monkeys butt cheek immersive for your adventurer?  It comes off to me as game play tactic of the developer not something reasonable my character would do.  Not only that who actually would buy that crap? 

     

    Out of all the time sinks that there are or that have been removed from MMORPG's item junk is not one that's seems to make an impactful or positive effect on the game.

     

    My point was that  in all the years we've played MMORPG's why not just have reasonable loot that can be recycled into crafting at the least.  Kill a lion and get a pelt that could be used in a recipe.  Why am I looting lion teeth and why does a bar tender want to pay me any money for it?  Some people have a weird notion of immersion.  

    Problem there is, you can actually sell lion's teeth.  Same with eagle or owl feathers, or a sawfish snout.  Or bird's nests.  That's real world.  Now, without an actual skill in preparing carcasses, you'd have difficulty getting anything but the simplest elements (teeth or feathers, for example).  So it's not an unreasonable idea at all, unless presented in an unreasonable manner.  (Like, exactly why DO they want those monkey butts?)   Just take a look at the trade in animal parts to the Asian market for some pretty unusual examples.

    If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.

  • VrikaVrika FinlandPosts: 2,576Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal

    How is cutting off a monkeys butt cheek immersive for your adventurer? 

    It represents the idea of obtaining something valuable from the corpse, and the selling that thing, much better than gold just magically materializing into your pocket after you make the kill.

    It's also more rewarding to get some item, and then sell it to earn gold, than just having your gold stat raise by n points after successful kill.

    If you don't like it, I'm sorry. But there are people who honestly like it.

     

    But since you seem to want crafting -related loot (at least in your OP post), I'd like to make an attack at your point of view too: In most of the games, high level players are all superheroes who have saved the world several times over. Isn't it completely unrealistic, that they'd be bothered to craft and barter themselves. They'd just sell all their loot to some trusted friend, who'd do the boring job of crafting and trading for them, while they do the more important world-saving business. All crafting loot should be removed in favor of vendor trash, because world's best fighters crafting and bartering crafting materials is unrealistic and breaks immersion.

  • MorrokMorrok MunichPosts: 130Member


    Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal
    How is cutting off a monkeys butt cheek immersive for your adventurer?

    Excuse me for quoting myself:

    Originally posted by Morrok
    I mean, why did euopeans in the 19th century pay big money for mummies only to unwrap them at a party?
    Think that the egyptian grave robber much cared WHY got his money instead that he simply cared THAT he got it?

    So your OP is about vendor trash after all?
    And that you don't like it, but want (at least) crafting items instead?

    Very well, can't blame you for your preferences.
    It's not mine though, as i said, i do not call vendor trash "useless".

    I do not find it "better" if the mob dropped plat right away either, just to save me the trip to the vendor (which i will look up anyways to restock food+drink and expendables).

    If the mobs would drop crafting items INSTEAD of vendor trash, wouldn't that merely inflate (and thus devalue) the crafting?
    (as an example, look at all the poison-drops that drop off mobs since EQ has changed the mob's loot tables into something "global")

  • generals3generals3 MehPosts: 3,307Member
    Originally posted by Vrika
    Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal

    How is cutting off a monkeys butt cheek immersive for your adventurer? 

    It represents the idea of obtaining something valuable from the corpse, and the selling that thing, much better than gold just magically materializing into your pocket after you make the kill.

    It's also more rewarding to get some item, and then sell it to earn gold, than just having your gold stat raise by n points after successful kill.

    If you don't like it, I'm sorry. But there are people who honestly like it.

     

    But since you seem to want crafting -related loot (at least in your OP post), I'd like to make an attack at your point of view too: In most of the games, high level players are all superheroes who have saved the world several times over. Isn't it completely unrealistic, that they'd be bothered to craft and barter themselves. They'd just sell all their loot to some trusted friend, who'd do the boring job of crafting and trading for them, while they do the more important world-saving business. All crafting loot should be removed in favor of vendor trash, because world's best fighters crafting and bartering crafting materials is unrealistic and breaks immersion.

    It is only unrealistic if you want it to be. And if the loot was all craftable nobody would force you to actually craft anything. Consequently your immersion is not broken. And what's so unbelievable about crafting heroes? (didn't spiderman make his own web shooting device) And what about non-world-saving-heroes crafters? (not everyone farms end-game raids)

    Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt.
    Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress.

  • maplestonemaplestone Ottawa, ONPosts: 3,099Member

    To be honest, I wouldn't mind if games went the complete opposite direction - when I loot a dungeon, there's a part of me that  wants to loot a dungeon, right down to the rusty nails.  It appeases my inner hoarder to sit down after an eventure and sift through a great pile of odds and ends for collectables, additions to my library, quest clues while sorting everything else into recycling bins.

    I'm frustrated when there's *nothing* I can do with items and have to just manually junk them, but even just dumping a pile of stuff onto a vendor for a few coins feels far from useless.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,638Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Arglebargle
    Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal

    How is cutting off a monkeys butt cheek immersive for your adventurer?  It comes off to me as game play tactic of the developer not something reasonable my character would do.  Not only that who actually would buy that crap? 

    Out of all the time sinks that there are or that have been removed from MMORPG's item junk is not one that's seems to make an impactful or positive effect on the game.

    My point was that  in all the years we've played MMORPG's why not just have reasonable loot that can be recycled into crafting at the least.  Kill a lion and get a pelt that could be used in a recipe.  Why am I looting lion teeth and why does a bar tender want to pay me any money for it?  Some people have a weird notion of immersion.  

    Problem there is, you can actually sell lion's teeth.  Same with eagle or owl feathers, or a sawfish snout.  Or bird's nests.  That's real world. 

    Yes, there are people somewhere in the world that will buy them. It's usually not the baker or the tailor, though.
    See, you're starting to get at the OP's point.  If players are going to have to collect monkey butts, spider eyelashes and ratman navel lint, then having some use for them in the game world

    • - the alchemist NPC creates potions from it
    • - you can pulverize them into powder/serum/etc for potions
    • - the trophysmith makes things from them (maybe even a trophy of your kill!)

    A reason or use for them would be nice. Context would be nice. The items would then be something more than "junk" loot.

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • SpellforgedSpellforged Belvidere, ILPosts: 458Member

    I've been playing an MMORPG on my phone recently called Celes Arca Online.  Every item in the game is used for crafting and there's no such thing as junk loot.  The only things that actually drop equipment in the game are bosses that can drop cosmetic headgear.  Every other enemy in the game drops a bunch of miscellaneous items that are used for crafting, upgrading and remaking equipment.  

    It's a cool system and all but there's a reason MMORPG's have junk loot.  You can't really go with the useful loot route if you don't want your game to be focused on crafting.  The junk loot drops are just there to keep you interested/occupied between rare/magical item drops.  Would you be happier if every junk/white item in a game was removed and you only found one rare item drop every couple hours and nothing else?  It kind of helps with the feeling of progression when you see that you're obtaining items (useless or not).

    image
  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,638Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Icewhite

    Test your dev staff and ask them.

    "Hey, is there any way you can make autoloot ignore grey items?"

    "You know what we don't have in our game? Junk loot. Can we put that on the table for the next expansion?"

    *jots down idea for an April Fool's Day devblog*

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,694Member Uncommon

    Well for one, most players find it easier to accept that some chump NPC will pay 10 gold coins for those Bear Jaw skeletons than for the bears themselves to be carrying 10 gold...

    But certainly it would be a step forward for everything to be useful.

    "Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy
    "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Sioux City, IAPosts: 3,828Member

    2 reasons.
    1) How else can an MMO inflate it's economy with vendors that have unlimited funds?
    2) These drops fill up bag space and entice players to purchase more bag space.

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • HelleriHelleri Felton, CAPosts: 927Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal
    Shouldn't by now all loot be useful in someway to use at least for crafting? Why waste resources making loot that we can never use? Or is it just to help sell bag slots?

    Another reason Runescape is my MMORPG of choice. Very little in the game is not useful loot wise (it's often a choice of deciding to grab what you can Most use or telling yourself when you go off to train that your only going to grab one kind of items -sticking to that is harder then it might seem at first).

     

    Now, while I think I would enjoy a system where I can elect to not receive certain items (not even have them show up in a pile). There may be huge unknowable consequences to that in the way of economic balance. And, I'd rather not even mess with it mentally. I will make at least one assertion here that I won't also make mute. The one thing I can't stand is a game that auto-deposits items from a kill into my inventory. And, the thing is....Usually the game that does this is - from what I have noticed - is also the game with the most useless stuff to give me. It is so utterly useless in the some games that they have to make you take it. I can understand the frustration with this in many MMORPG.

     

    But, much like with a lot of issues people seem to have on here with games they have played or are currently playing. I play Runescape. And so I don't currently have that problem, lol.

     

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  • MMOman101MMOman101 Posts: 1,274Member Uncommon

    Useless loot is the most realistic--not fun--but realistic.

     

    If we assume that many of these bi-pod creatures are less advanced then we should assume that their weapons are less advanced.  A monster that is not very smart may have  a make shift blunt or sharp item that would be useless for many adventures. 

     

    Most of the monsters that are killed in MMOs have very little society or trade.  We should assume that their weapons. armor, and equipment would be of lower quality. 

     

    If we are talking just pure game mechanics, I can still see a reason for "useless" loot. 

     

    1) It makes carrying space have some value.  It furthers the need for larger bags and more of them.  This in turn creates an avenue for one of the few crated items in most MMOs. 

    2) It forces people back to hubs at some point.  Without this players would be able to quest for longer and longer without returning.    This creates more natural breaks in game play and can give people a reason to go to the AH or have possibly have contact with another player.

    3) It gives people multiple carrots on a stick without giving to much value.  If everything that dropped had value it would make grinding on mobs even more valuable.  If Mobs dropped almost nothing it would not incentivize killing.   There needs to be a balance reward for killing.  If people only got useful items quests may not be valued for the players. If people got nothing players may only want to do quests and focus on quests that had little to no combat. 

     

    I honestly so little reason to drop useless gear in the current MMO structure.  Now if an MMO was heavy in crafting I guess it would make sense to have Mobs drop a lot of items that could be deconstructed or used in some way.  There are not a lot of MMOs that focus on crafting and crafting does not seem to draw enough people in to make a change like that in all MMOs.

  • 5Luck5Luck Shelton, CTPosts: 185Member

    I think usless loot is pretty lame. I do however think corpes should be usabale by skills like skinning essence gathering animating and head taking(bountys)

     

    There are tons of ways to use a corps other then filing it with items that serve no other purpose then vendoring. I like the idea of salvageing but it should be a skill. Like when its a human corps and no bounty is present you can salvage the broken gear for scrap and that scrap can be combined to fit into a special aug slot in crafting or slotting. Maybe we could go in the direction of fasion. Adding bits of scrap from a certain mobs decor yeilds a certain look for your worn or crafted items...

     

    But just for clicking a corps it should be usable or currency only.

     

    Can even go so far as

    "As a group you make short work of the carcass"

    to speed things up when grouping since not all group members gather the secondary skill based loot.

  • DeivosDeivos Mountain View, CAPosts: 1,737Member Uncommon

    Largely I'd chalk it up to it taking less brainpower to toss in a bunch of vendor trash to regulate the average amount of money a player has when progressing than it would be to make items be more consequential.

     

    If they let all lootable items at least play into a simple crafting mechanic that would at least become a validating factor in the presence and use of such things, and they can still fulfill the role of vendor trash or otherwise for those that are less inclined to spend their time tinkering away with such activities.

     

    Similarly, if they changed how loot and gear worked they could have dramatic differences on what trash loot or other looted material constituted.

    "The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners."
    - Thomas B. Macaulay

  • simmihisimmihi -Posts: 615Member Uncommon
    Useless loot - you vendor it, no decision, so it brings money into the game. Can somehow balance the economy, especially at launch and around expansion times. Theoretically, makes grinding an option. If no useless loot would come from grinding, people would feel "forced" to quest for gold (ingame currency), as there's no other source of gold (selling useful loot does not count, as that does not bring money into the game, it just moves money from one player to the other). Some people actually enjoy grinding, gathering useful mats (along with the useless ones), crafting stuff. They must have buyers and the prices should make their activity useful, on par with questing and others. For this, money should flow into the game.
  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard La BarrePosts: 3,540Member Uncommon

    When an animal drops useless bones or fangs or teeth, it makes sense at least...

    Nothing worse than a rat dropping full plate armor.

    Playing now: WoW, Landmark, GW2, The Crew, SotA

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  • ScalplessScalpless SnowballvillePosts: 1,395Member Uncommon

    I liked how junk items were handled in Guild Wars 1. It had no real junk items, but mobs dropped trophies that could be sold to a vendor normally OR given to a collector NPC. Usually collectors had a little backstory ("I'm gathering ten Wind Rider Tentacles for my ritual.") and they'd give you basic items in exchange for the trophies they were collecting.

    Basically, they were repeatable fetch quests that gave value to all the crap mobs drop and backstories to why someone would want to buy it. Unfortunately, GW2 axed the concept.

  • generals3generals3 MehPosts: 3,307Member
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

    2 reasons.
    1) How else can an MMO inflate it's economy with vendors that have unlimited funds?
    2) These drops fill up bag space and entice players to purchase more bag space.

    1) You don't need vendor money to inflate the economy. The money NPC's drop already inflate the economy.

    2) Just make bags smaller?

    Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt.
    Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress.

  • RydesonRydeson Canton, OHPosts: 3,858Member Uncommon

    agreed.. all loot should be crafted mats ONLY.. and any weapon or armor drops should be very limited.. other then destroying the items for mats like GW2 does.. 

    I prefer a game that has 90 percent crafted economy.. :)

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