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How to manage threat as a gladiator?
Dzone
Member UncommonPosts: 371
I play gladiator as my main and I've done dungeons up to toto-rak now. I find going through the dungeons that all the regular mobs I'm doing pretty good holding hate, but when it gets to the bosses it becomes a lot harder.
The bosses tend to have a lot of adds that pop up during the fight. I'm not really shure how I should be aproching those. I've been just focusing on the main boss, keeping hes agro on me, while the other members kill the adds. Seems to be working ok, but should I be trying to keep the hate on all the mobs?
This game is a lot different then ffxi. FFXI it was ez to tank cause you just fought 1 mob at a time, but in this game its like groups of 3 usually, sometimes more.
Also in one of my PUG's our conjurer died and after the fight he was like "Seriously no heals, wtf" I stood there thinking how am I supposed to manage heals while trying to keep hate on all these mobs at the time. I do have conjurer up to 15 so I got the cure spell, I just very rarely ever use it.
That's another problem I've been having. I don't ever look at the party list cause I got so much to do, takes me a bit to even notice sometimes if someone in my group died... Also I vary rarely even notice the limit break aswell.
Oh and now i'm also starting to mark mobs and that even adds more to my plate of things to do.
Also i'm about to unlock paliden now and I know that job is tank and backup heal, so I got my work cut out for me.
Guss I need to start repeating dungeons more, so I can get some more practice. Any tips would be apriciated 
Comments
I actually made a thread about this a while ago, but it seems like everyone who is not a gladiator seems to not really understand the problem. when i was in my 20s i had the same problem. threat management for groups is a bit of a problem at first as a gladiator compared to a maruader. our only AoE threat generator is an aoe blind that does no damage and doesn't actually generate much hate while a marauder can just keep spamming their aoe damage move repeatedly. however i soon figured out this problem later on and now my life is much easier. Here are a few things that need to be done when you encounter a boss that spawns adds:
1) do as much single threat damage to the boss before the adds come.
2) once the adds come make sure that no one attacks the monsters before you attempt to grab hate. try gather the adds in one group and use flash once or twice. you dont have to worry about the boss for a little while because of all the threat you generated in the beginning. just try to help burn down the mobs one by one as fast as possible. make sure you mark the monster you are attacking so your team knows which one to focus first. if they attack any of the others they will get aggro and it will be annoying. advice your team against spamming aoe attacks unless the adds will die super fast because it will be hard for you to keep aggro.
3) use another flash every 10 secs or so to maintain group aggro while you are burning down the adds. if you feel like you need to generate more aggro on the boss then go back to boss and hit it a couple of times with your single target enmity skills then go back to the adds.
4) sometimes an add runs off because healer is generating too much hate or someone is doing too much aoe damage. in this case, a provoke and maybe a shield lob would suffice. if not, then you are going to have to do a dps it for a bit while keeping flash up on the other targets until you get aggro back.
thats pretty much it. at first its really hectic and confusing but as you get used to it and as your teammates become smarter with aggro and calling tatgets, it will get easier. if you still have problems just let me know.
Most memorable games: AoC(Tryanny PvP), RIFT, GW, GW2, Ragnarok Online, Aion, FFXI, FFXIV, Secret World, League of Legends (Silver II rank)
Spam flash when adds are out, then Riot Blade your mana back up. Congratulations you've mastered Gladiator!
thats cool, you do realize blind status suffers from diminshing returns drastically right? and you're dps is now completely negligiable. compared to other games, the tank classes here do a LOT of damage and when you are in a party of 4, your damage definitely matters. Congratulations you've shown that you have zero idea how to play a gladiator!
Most memorable games: AoC(Tryanny PvP), RIFT, GW, GW2, Ragnarok Online, Aion, FFXI, FFXIV, Secret World, League of Legends (Silver II rank)
GLD aggr management is mostly about managing player stupidity.
Make the 1 marker as a convenient hotkey. Inofrm the healer to not heal any dps that isnt attacking the 1. Also if a dps pulls make sure to let them die to.
Yeah because dps isn't needed to burn a boss, so yeah letting them die is completely logical. I bet you are the same guy that probably complains about tank and spank. There is no winning with you fella, you should just go back to playing whack-a-mole, by yourself...oh wait...lets blame the healer....
Losing aggro happens. Get it back before people "die".
It will take some time before players understand that they are not playing WoW and assist the tank, focus fire targets, cc, etc on pug dungeon runs.
One thing I can say about the boss fights so far is that most of them have adds that you, as a tank, don't need to pick up. They are meant to be killed, cc'ed or whatever by the dps. FF14 is pretty harsh on tanks and healers, specially on tanks, but the devs do try to make dps'ers important too and some wipes can happen due to dps'ers slacking on support duties that they are supposed to do.
I have tanked as a Warrior in Wow from Vanilla til I quit. letting a DPS die is just foolish. And as a tank I took deaths personally because even if the DPS is terminally stupid in pulling adds, I should be able to peel the mob off and get aggro. Almost every DPS I have worked with, static to PUG, have had the sense enough to bring the mob to me.
And those few times they didn't it was because someone was pretty much a newb. A little chat lesson on what to do, done politely of course, usually corrects it quickly.
Once I am able to buy this game I am going for a paladin tank. I love tanking. Get good enough rep as a tank and finding a group for whatever you want to do is easy.
Hell, still have my membership to TankSpot.
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I actually have to disagree as someone who main healed and off tanked in a few competitive raiding guilds. Though the degree in which I part from you is based on the situation at hand and systems of the game that seem to be dependent on a expansion per expansion basis when it comes to WoW.
When faced with a system that is adequately balanced and doesn't allow for overheal without repercussions and drains mana very quickly there are many situations whereby, as a healer, you have to make a decision when to just stop healing a DPS (no matter if he is the problem or not). In this situation, I would like to note as an example a cloth wearer who dies in less than three hits. Wasting over 50% of your mana just keeping them topped is incredibly inefficient and could very well get the tank killed once you run out of mana depending on the situation. Knowing each and every class inside and out -- and assuming that the people you roll with know their class the same -- it becomes an issue of leaving them to their own devices (stealth, iceblock, self heal, feint, bubble, LoH, etc) and conserving your mana so that the tank will be able to eat your mana (with their high mitigation) as a slower pace and hopefully outlast your pseudo time limit in the mana bar.
This situation may be trumped by the fact that a boss may have an enrage timer, of which case the fight is probably already over as you had to waste your mana keeping the DPS topped when they (or the tank) are doing something wrong. Though with either a single DPS falling down, or the entire team, it is sometimes the only way people learn (and the DPS should have ample ways to get out of a situation as is and not just rely on being a mana drain). This was less true during Wrath when spells could just be spammed and especially with paladins. Though as a whole if there is no timer, and mana needs to be sparse, it is the hallmark of a good healer to know when to sacrifice so that the tank stays alive and the days is won, even if it takes an extra 30 seconds to do so (versus running out of mana and completely wiping). There are even circumstances whereby you have to understand the damage potential of the DPS, and if more than one are being mana hogs, to pick the one who is most useful if neither have reliable methods of survivability.
Now, it's easy to say that a perfect group keeps everyone alive. But sometimes systems don't allow for that and tough decisions need to be made (though games are rarely that well tuned nowadays). There was even a situation I read about in Final Fantasy that a group couldn't beat a boss simply because a DPS was screwing up so badly and it instantly killed everyone. When they finally just let him die, the group beat the dungeon with ease. Though I'm interested myself in trying to figure out / remember what fight they were on for future reference. Though aside from that, the biggest trouble I have on my Paladin and Scholar is participating in lower level dungeons what with the level syncing. It doesn't allow you to use high level skills, and therefore my hotkeys are all messed up. When you use all available skills at the right time, when that time comes around in lower level dungeons, you just end up mashing it only to realize that it was a level 36 skill and the dungeon is 31-35 or whatnot.
You could be used to using 20+ skills while tanking, and then entering a level 16 dungeon and only have two attacks and flash to keep things under control again. Even the macros made have to be remade or replaced so that targeting is properly implemented if it was originally stuck with other skills.
XD
There have been two insights I have had while both tanking and healing. One being that all sources are a matter of mitigation. Damage is mitigation in that it will bring down a boss or monsters quicker and the tank will take less damage. Armor is obviously mitigation as well as tanking abilities; proper usage of DPS is mitigation as they won't attract extra damage and waste a resource. The second viewpoint is that there is always a timer and mitigation is in fact subject to the mana pool of the healer. One messup with bring the timer down, and the more mitigation there is the easier it is on the mana pool timer. There is then a threshold when a DPS could take more mana from the healer by being healed than they could by helping take the boss out. The choice has to be made sometime before this threshold hate in that you have to follow your instincts as a healer if they are able to get back in shape or learn from their mistakes to maintain optimum efficiency; knowing the boss in question also helps to see if he is beatable if a DPS is to be sacrificed. The threshold is actually reached much quicker than someone might think. If a cloth wearer only focuses on rotation and doesn't care about threat or skills that could save them, they could burn through a mana bar in at matter of seconds (again subject to the system) due to being essentially paper and taking so much damage whilst expecting to be healed through it (when the game doesn't call for that).
Granted most of this is based on when you try to do a raid with an extremely limited amount healers and absolute precision is needed. You know you have to DPS, and mana efficiency needs to be top notch. It also is based on the Heroics when they were actually somewhat difficult or the timed ones at the start of MoP. If you have more healers than needed, it's likely that the extras will just heal through whatever and nobody would care as you need every DPS to meet the timer since a few were sacrificed for those extra healers. It's also more from the perspective of a healer when a tank is unable to keep the attention of all mobs, which was usually because the DPS weren't targeting marked mobs and only focused on their numbers (or simply couldn't figure out the fights and kept on getting hit far too often in addition to this).
I've healed a few dungeons, up through L40 so far.
I've never, never expected my tank to heal anything.
I've often really appreciated with an ACN/SMN (or a cross-class) tossed a few offheals, but I've never blamed anyone for me dying for not healing me as the healer.
I played aournd with GLD a lot in P3 Beta, and I got stuck similar to you - instances were a nightmare; I just couldn't get comfortable with the aggro mechanic for GLD. Maybe it gets a lot better as a PLD, I don't know.
As far as tanking in general, as a healer and dps, it's a lot easier when the tank can pick up the adds - so long as the big boss doesn't get lose. But, if the adds run around a bit, they usually don't hurt so bad and die fast enough that it's not a huge deal, just a bit more hectic. If the boss gets lose though, the shit can hit the fan. So it's nice if you can pick up adds, but if you don't, oh well.
If a DPS runs ahead and pulls mobs, then they deserve to die. Plain and simple. They are endangering the group unnecessarily. Threat generation and snap aggro isnt easy mode in this game like it is in most games. Its more than manageable if the group is smart, but a tank, especially in the late teens/early 20s, does not have the tools to deal with DPS that decides to do their own thing and not function as a group. Posts like this are the reason why tanks and healers tend to be in such short supply. DPS can do no wrong in some people's eyes.
And why did you bring up losing aggro? I didn't. [mod edit]
It kind've doesn't. The main problem with PLD is that all of it's best abilities are high level, so they're just there to be there until around level 40 plus. In addition to that, the Flash ability is on the GCD so it's even more of an annoyance when AoE tanking. With skills being unusable, I've just resorted to playing warrior whenever possible and paladin only in raids where I am expected to be the main tank on bosses.
Can´t you Level up a Marauder until you get the AoE threat generator ability and cross use it With Your Gladiator?
I am leveling up Gladiator myself now (lvl21), so haven´t checked on this myself yet.
Or can´t you cross use Marauder abilities as Gladiator?
Does blind have diminishing returns on enmity(threat)? That's what the thread is all about or are you saying to use damage as an enmity generator?
You can use Marauder skills as a Gladiator but not all. As far as I know you can't use the Marauder skill Overpower (increases emnity in a cone to all enemies) as Gladiator. So, no.
If a DPS pulls aggro, it's either because they didn't give the tank a few seconds at the beginning of the fight to build threat, they're too busy trying to top the damage meters instead of paying attention, or it's a misclick / tab targeting mistake. Unfortunately in my experience the second reason tends to be the most common.
Damage meters are a useful tool for optimizing build & rotation, however they have absolutely no place for anyone but the raid leader in an actual dungeon / raid. Use it for the target dummies, but turn that crap off when you're in a freaking dungeon. It's a needless distraction which will only cause wipes.
Remember, your DPS is ZERO when you're dead.
Apart from a healer burning through mana to heal a DPS, should the DPS end up face down, the healer by this point has usually generated so much hate by spamming heal on said DPS that the tank is really going to have little chance to grab it back andnow the mob is on the healer with one dps down.
This one of the ways things go to sh*t in a basket so quickly.
I've been tanking exclusively with MAR, now 25. GLD I leveled to the 15 required for WAR, might go PLD later. Having both Overpower and Flash as MAR is handy and makes multiple mob juggling easy. Although I don't obviously have Riot Blade for ability-based MP regen, the pool is deep enough to fire off some supporting Flashes per fight.
Total joke that someone has asked you to heal them with Cure.
It heals so little with tank classes that I don't bother to hotbar it even for occasional solo heals (though I got Bloodbath).
All in all, I've found FFXIV tanking to be a treat so far and like someone said, damage isn't bad either.
Never had a problem.
Mark targets so dps are on what you're tanking and clearly know the kill order. You encounter some idiots who don't get it but most people go with it and many really appreciate it since it makes things very clear. Most dpsers would rather not be taking hits and some have positional attacks. Eliminate the guessing and make things clear.
We also CC everything and when I DPS on my THM (vs tank on GLD>PAL) I always CC and most people work with CC too, even early on. Instance mobs have a ton of health and hit hard so focusing fire is a good idea. Plus CCing enables healers to dps some instead of just spam healing. This also helps with threat management because the mobs tend to end up CCed around you, so you can flash periodically as needed to keep them under threat while tanking the active target.
It's a good idea to make ranged mobs your priority since you can drag melee mobs to them to keep mobs clustered on you.
Communicate if needed. THM can cc. CNJ can cc starting at 26. Some people may not grasp the value of CC but if you ask them to do it they'll probably give it a shot. I run with a regular healer who cc's everything - it's way more efficient and safe than spam healing.
Make sure YOU as tank are the puller. That way initial threat is on you. Ideally nobody else touches adds or mobs that break free. Lancer/Dragoon has become my least favorite class to have in groups because for some reason they so often want to be a hero, or off tank, or think they're helpful when tagging adds or mobs that break CC - when all this really does is make threat harder to manage and mobs harder to control.
Throw shield to lead off - usually at your #1 target. Quickly position self to center on mobs that pull/collapse on you to flash as many as possible. Flash again if necessary to catch stragglers. The initial flash(es) (usually only need one on a baisc pull) will get everything aggro on you.
Basic single target threat rotation should be your basic attack and your threat combo attack. Do not do the +mana attack unless you actually need mana - it doesn't not have a +threat component and your dps isn't the reason you're in the group. At 26 chain your new combo move in. You'll have a shield reactive hit that also has no +threat component. Use it when you are sure threat is solid but the threat combo chain is the key to holding single targets.
Depending on group behavior and whether or not you're cc'ing, you will need varying amounts of flash. Flash doesn't screw up your combo chain so do it when necessary. Flash doesn't break CC and mobs still generate hate (mostly towards the healer) while cc'd. I usually flash after a full threat chain as needed.
Early on I could get by with 1, maybe 2 flashes per pull. When healers become white mages they have bigger heals and pull more threat so it's a good idea to flash a little more, especailly on pulls that're taking longer to resolve.
If you're not ever using CC you can still follow this basic system, just make sure you mark targets. If your dps are not on the same target it is MUCH tougher to control the pull. No CC and everybody doing whatever is the worst possible situation you could be in. If everybody is on the same target you'll be fine holding everything with flash, you're just going to get beat up a lot more and the healer is going to have to spam a lot more heals, thus creating more hate, and requiring you to flash more.
If you're in total chaos you'll need to switch targets during your threat chains to spread around the emnity. It's much more of a pain and you're much more likely to not control all mobs. Do what you can, and good luck with that mess.
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