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Originally posted by 40Hz Foreword: I'm not claiming DAoC was the perfect end-all-be-all of MMORPGs, nor am I claiming that any of the points below were only found in DAoC. 1: Every content update was heavily tested for weeks/months on a populated, open PLAYER-BASED test server BEFORE mass deployment to regular shards. 2: The chat system doubled as a command prompt for the core game client. You could player query(search for players based on any parameter[name/level/class/guild/location]) your zone, or any zone by doing a search with that zone's name. It also made it very easy to find other players in your current area, players from a certain guild, players of a certain level range, etc. The way it worked also actually fostered social interaction via chat. Almost all non-combat functions could also be executed from a simple typed command. Games today flood you with tons of visual menus that don't function half as well as a simple command prompt built into the chat system. 3: Crafting ruled the player equipment world. It was really tedious, difficult, time-consuming, and BENEFITIAL. The best armor/weapons in the game were crafted via an item "quality" system and reasonably expensive because they required a large amount of refined or rare resources. It should be noted that these items were not un-attainable for the average Joe, they just cost a lot. Raid and dungeon items were still very good and often had special colors and effects, but top-end crafted items held the title of max possible stats. 4: Replayability. Your options were huge. Three "Realms" (not one or two), each with its own lore/races/classes and entirely separated from each other except in open world PvP. Each one of the three realms also had 11 UNIQUE classes (16 currently), which each had different skill paths you could take, making the possibilities vast and interesting. Today's MMORPGs barely manage one starting area/realm with 3-5 tired-to-death cookie cutter classes. 5: PvP/RvR. Three completely segregated and proud "realms" constantly jockeying for realm-wide benefits via "relics". It fostered such a strong nationality for each realm that people of all levels and skills were mobilized and extremely motivated to go and do REAL, non-instanced PvP that actually mattered to everyone. It even mattered to strictly PvE players that never set foot on the frontier to do PvP, because their PvE stats would be mildly affected by the status of your realm's relic control. 6: Mixing high level content with low level content. The zones in each realm had their target level, but they also had pockets of much higher level mobs that were necessary for quests or dropped special items. I think this is important because it makes the world more interesting, mixed, more like a sandbox, less linear, and less like a packaged theme park. (i.e. Mario 64 vs. Crash Bandicoot). 7: Active out-of-game web access to current in-game data. DAoC had a web portal to it's current in-game status that kept track of every player and guild on every server. It also allowed you to see, in real time, what was going on in the 3-realm warfare on your server without even needing to log into the game. This was in 2001. Games today don't even have this level of coverage. 8: Dungeons were open-world, not instanced. A lot of people will probably argue that instanced dungeons are a positive evolution, but I disagree. Instanced dungeons promote solo and exclusive play which can be boring and predictable. I feel like open-world dungeons promote social interaction between players and gently force strangers to work together and find solutions ad-hoc. Often times strangers would become friends through these interactions. It is simply more engaging and memorable in the long run. 9: Darkness Falls. A huge three-realm dungeon, connected to three-realm PvP(RvR) that offered the best of every world. PvP, PvE, strategy, amazing gear...it was all a master stroke combination to get people to come together to really challenge one another to have access to various enticing benefits. Darkness Falls was simply MMO developer genius that I haven't seen repeated since. 10: Guild emblems. This may seem goofy or irrelevant to some but it actually created even more of a guild/realm pride when you and your whole group of friends could run out onto the frontier in matching guild emblems/colors. People knew who you were with visual impact.
It has always baffled me that so many mmorpgs have not attempted what DAoC created back in 2001. It's shameful and a sure sign that a lack of creativity and overall "why bother look at our player base" mentality has just trashed the industry.
How often I see the following here at mmorpg:
Game is listed
Massive spam about how great the game will be ensues
The game releases
Massive spam about how crappy the game is or disappointing
Ironically, with Elder Scrolls Online releasing, I'm actually convinced that other mmorpg companies have a % of their staff logging into sites like this to denounce the game with the following:
1. It's a subscription model! Oh noooo!
2. It's not exactly like Skyrim, Oh nooooo!
3. Endless polls about who won't be playing ESO because of the above 2 variables.
Talk about disinformation.
Anyway, OP, fantastic post. And hey, it's quite obvious why Marc Jacobs has called his new IP, Camelot UNCHAINED...considering Dark Age of Camelot was bought out by EA so it could be cast aside and swept under a rug. "If you can't beat them, buy them."
I am hoping ESO and a few other titles will pressure the industry to raise the bar. As of right now - there's a plethora of players that have ZERO idea what Dark Age brought to a blind industry.
On Facebook, there was a post about GW2 - last year during the "spam of awesomeness" phase, shortly before the, "this is just another E-Sport, phase. I got a reply to a DAoC statement where the person stated, "yeah right, 44 classes and 24 races, what have you been smoking?"
I laughed...and then thought how sad it was that this person honestly couldn't believe this sort of thing was possible. The industry has shamed itself - I certainly hope a few upcoming titles paradigm shift the entirety of the crapfest people have been force fed for years.
Originally posted by Kyleran Originally posted by Wizardry FFXI did all of that except no real focus on anything PVP which i am more than fine with,you can't mix them anyhow,it will never work.# realms as well but opened up to more choice as you venture out of the realms. FFXI's crafting was and probably is the most robust of any game but no it did not boast the best weapons and again i am ok with that,it does have it's uses.Gear until recently really was never the big factor in combat it was group play,something games now a days do not get at all. Eq2 has their guild emblems on their cloaks,also has a robust craft system everything you need in a game except again no real focus on pvp,again imo that is a good point. Too many people keep pointing to pvp and idk why,it is NEVER done well let alone right.Pvp in every single game is nothing more than have players stand out in the open and spam their dps.I come from a pvp background,i was more into pvp than rpg's at one time.I am used to cosntant strategy,trying to out think your opponent or to confuse him,using and knowing when to take cover and knowing how to play a map.I also found that utilizing z axis was huge in pvp,NONE of these factors are present in rpg pvp games.ALso in good pvp you have to make choices on weapon selection again in rpg's there is no such strategies.
I take it from your comments you haven't or don't play DAOC? I'm currently playing a 2003 version of it and it has all of these things, strategy, proper tactics and it is clear why some groups win and how they properly use the game mechanics and design.
These tools have existed for over 10 years, but have been largely forgotten by the mainstream MMO's, so I'm not surprised you feel the way you do about MMO combat.
Exactly - this definitely supports my previous post.
Originally posted by Icewhite Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal I really don't see the point in swooping in on your air of superiority and making smarmy post in every thread attempting to lump them into one. If people are having a discussion then why not let them do so without your own ironic perpetual post?
In the gentle hope that some day the forum (in general) moves beyond 2003. Or at least peeks into this century.
But you're right, I should stick only to MOD-safe backhanded insults (like yours), and aimed at one of the four standard mmorpg.com approved-to-hate groups.
A) WoW players, Themepark (in general) players, C) F2P players, or D) Youth.
I just consolidate your groups into one WoW-playing, F2P supporting, Themepark loving bunch of youth and save myself the effort of bashing in 4 different threads
No required quests! And if I decide I want to be an assassin-cartographer-dancer-pastry chef who lives only to stalk and kill interior decorators, then that's who I want to be, even if it takes me four years to max all the skills and everyone else thinks I'm freaking nuts. -Madimorga-
Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal Originally posted by Icewhite Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal Originally posted by Icewhite There should just be a button at the top of the page, to save posters needing to re-enter this stuff every day.
Well, maybe you could create a new thread instead of adding nothing but smarmy post.
A new thread about...perpetual posts that never stop coming?
I was just trying to save them some time; surely they have ten years of back-posts to copy/pasta from?
We could auto-generate standard text, even "/rawr me too" standard replies. Or if that's too impersonal, maybe some fill in the blanks? Multiple choice?
Would you like to add a couple of paragraphs about These Kids Today? (y/n)
Actually, I think your post tend to be more perpetual than anything other people post about. The OP gave an original post about specific things from DAoC that today's MMORPG don't have. Please find me a thread repeating the same thing. Not the general topic that MMORPG's are lacking.
I really don't see the point in swooping in on your air of superiority and making smarmy post in every thread attempting to lump them into one. If people are having a discussion then why not let them do so without your own ironic perpetual post?
If you look over her posts, you'll find that 90% or more of their posts in no way contribute to the thread/conversation. It's quite often just one liners. If not then just some sort of representation of their arrogance and self important attitude. This is why I typically have her on ignore so I don't have to skimp over the same thing over and over again. She rarely has anything to add. If you do the same, you'll find you aren't missing a thing from ANY thread.
With that said, I see nothing wrong with the OP's post. Like other industries, sometimes it's discovered that what was done in the past is better than the present. In this case, for some, a return to DAOC style mechanics would be a welcomed change.
TOA helped kill Camelot... however even after TOA I had a blast just doing /level and running thidranki till I capped out and then making a new /level to play on. I even had a set of gear made exclusively for thidranki on my characters... I loved my scout and infiltrator.... and doing an air pet spamming elementalist was fun too not to mention running a 2 hand axe skald with that 1 time drop 100% axe.
I loved bonedancer class, loved necromancer class, loved my thane, and that the thane could focus on melee or casting, valkyrie was fun, shaman was fun, friar was pretty cool too and heretic and reavers are awesome now too. The armor especially the epic armor just looked awesome, made my own legendary staffs and while click and wait 5 minutes and pray you got a skill up was frustrating you know it was actually worth while unlike todays mmo where everything you make is pointless with raids and patches...
I would play DAOC right now if they came out with a FTP model with some kind of cash shop but no interest in paying 15 a month on what DAOC has become where you can have multiple realms on same servers and still having to deal with artifacts and the grinds for them and master levels.... yuck!
Originally posted by bestman22 I would play DAOC right now if they came out with a FTP model with some kind of cash shop but no interest in paying 15 a month on what DAOC has become where you can have multiple realms on same servers and still having to deal with artifacts and the grinds for them and master levels.... yuck!
It's funny how me and you are somewhat in the same boat. Except I would only return if it was a sub model, no cash shop and no TOA. They had classic servers opened years ago but due to their lack of advertising I missed out.
Originally posted by madazz With that said, I see nothing wrong with the OP's post. Like other industries, sometimes it's discovered that what was done in the past is better than the present. In this case, for some, a return to DAOC style mechanics would be a welcomed change.
That is the issue. Is "some" big enough to support a game?
And "better" is subjective. Usually the market evolves in the direction that is "better" for a majority ... because that is how you make money.
I have to agree majorly with the OP. Todays games just cannot match up to old school EQ1 and DAoC. They had so much more that it was scary and daunting but that just added to the excitement. DAoC was amazing with its content. The player housing was great also especially as you could send people looking for your house to avoid the broker fee and save a bit of cash.
The only things that I may have to say are these days a bit out dated is especially the raid system and the dungeon system. I did like the contested dungeons especially Darkness Falls. Especially the contested raid content though just can't hang in there vs todays world. To many want it and to few can control hence have SOME world raid content but have some instanced as well. I liked some of the old shared dungeons as well were you didn't have your own instance but there should be multiple instances per server depending on the amount of people in that dungeon. Old school it did suck a bit waiting in line to get a spot on a boss camp that could take hours and all you do is sit and sit such as in EQ1.
Great post by the OP thou.
If only todays MMO makers took some lessons from EQ1 and DAoC we could see some amazing games. But now the content is really lacking and very linear. Was especially great where you had a dozen or more class's and races and each one felt unique with its own story and its own quest area's for quite some time.
EQ1 and DAOC are definitely awesome games, nothing today even compares
I remember the early days of DAOC there were NO maps. You actually had to explore to find the dungeons, and when you did, you had to use landmarks to remember where it was
The players that knew the most spots became very popular. The community was a-buzz!
I Miss those days
Originally posted by Syanis /snip If only todays MMO makers took some lessons from EQ1 and DAoC we could see some amazing games. But now the content is really lacking and very linear. Was especially great where you had a dozen or more class's and races and each one felt unique with its own story and its own quest area's for quite some time.
Amazing games for who?
Might be amazing for you but it wasn't for me.
I thought EQ1 / DAoC were awful games.
Both of us have our preferences except my preference is the majority.
Gdemami -Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
Originally posted by jpnz Originally posted by Syanis /snip If only todays MMO makers took some lessons from EQ1 and DAoC we could see some amazing games. But now the content is really lacking and very linear. Was especially great where you had a dozen or more class's and races and each one felt unique with its own story and its own quest area's for quite some time.
Amazing games for millions of players, even today after more than 10 years.
Oh, and they still have a sub, because the games are that good
Well this only goes to show the majority can be wrong in their preferences.
"Winning" at EVE Online since May, 2007!
In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™ "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
+1 on this.
Alot of the MMOS of today seem to have even regressed.
Free to live, Free to play!
Originally posted by UtinniAlmost all of these points applied to multiple early MMO's. It's what MMORPG was built on and somehow slid off of the foundation into something that can be played on a leapfrog.
Yes most mmo's in those days including Asheron's call mmo's had most of these points but this is in today's mmo's unthinkable.If you have open dungeons these days you would have crybabys like tsunami whole day everyday of the month ingame and forums.
Most points would not work anymore the general populations of gamers has changed so much its BEYOND REPAIR.
For me the reason why i abandon the mmorpg scene and play solo games i can't stand todays mmorpgs anymore plus the inhabitants(playerbase) it hold these days its so worse im gald no part of it anymore.
Daoc was not special more had these points you mentioned but there lays also problem.
My dad(or mom) is better then yours, you never learn do you people:P
MB:MSI Z97XPOWER ACCPU:Intell Icore7 4790kGPU:MSI 2x AMD 290XMEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GBPSU:Corsair AX1200iOS:Windows 8.1 64bit)not yet sure i upgrade to windows 10 need to know alot more with integrated cloud and other maybe spy stuff)
My favorite MMO experience EVER. Can only pray Camelot Unchained can capture the magic again. Sadly with today's MMO community I doubt it, they would kill Daoc before it released if it were coming out today.
MMO's did not change by themselves, the people who now play them changed them. Thank WoW for that one.