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So big raids...is there at least a "duty finder" system?

nennafirnennafir Greater New Orleans Metro Area, LAPosts: 283Member Uncommon

So, big raids.  Brings back memories of me (even when I was in a big guild) having to wait forever for anything to get started.  The waits were the real killer, not the dungeons...

Will they at least be implementing a "duty finder" system like FFXIV where you are matched in parties for such events?  This is basically a make-or-break feature for me.  I can't see myself playing a "big raids" game anymore where I have to dick around waiting for a large group to be built up.

If you are "hard core" and like waiting staring at a wall:  Good for you!  Revel in your skill at doing nothing and your amazing patience!  Your ability to stare at a brick wall for 2 hours is truly legendary and is a good showcase for your skills! The rest of the gamers though don't really like this.

Comments

  • jesusjuice69jesusjuice69 Route 69, NDPosts: 276Member
    Originally posted by nennafir

    So, big raids.  Brings back memories of me (even when I was in a big guild) having to wait forever for anything to get started.  The waits were the real killer, not the dungeons...

    Will they at least be implementing a "duty finder" system like FFXIV where you are matched in parties for such events?  This is basically a make-or-break feature for me.  I can't see myself playing a "big raids" game anymore where I have to dick around waiting for a large group to be built up.

    If you are "hard core" and like waiting staring at a wall:  Good for you!  Revel in your skill at doing nothing and your amazing patience!  Your ability to stare at a brick wall for 2 hours is truly legendary and is a good showcase for your skills! The rest of the gamers though don't really like this.

    Are you asking if there is a Looking for Raid feature? 

    No, there is not.  A LFR is nothing but a glorified loot pinata, and does not coincide with the design philosophy of this game. 

    I have raided for over a decade now, and I never needed LFR to ensure that the raid started on time, and there were no 2 hour gaps in which we all stared at the wall.  I could only marvel at the lack of leadership such travesties would require.  The level of incompetence that would have required is the only thing legendary here.

    There is a looking for dungeon feature for small 5 man groups though.

    There are also solo dungeons.

  • VoqarVoqar Phoenix, AZPosts: 498Member

    Looking for raid is looking for fail.  No raid worth doing can be pugged by a random assortment of people just thrown together.  I mean, pugging some raids should be and has been doable in good raiding games over time, but there's a big difference between a leader with a clue putting together a pug raid with some known commodities, having everyone in VOIP, filling roles intelligently with appropriately geared and clued layers, and having some automated system just plucking X number of random people and dumping them into a raid.

     

    It works in WoW because they dumb the raids down to the point where they require no effort and are raids only in that there's a raid group.  Friends who still play WoW will be in those raids, afk, in vent talking to me while working or otherwise not doing anything much but autoattack, and telling me about epics they're getting while doing nothing.  That's not a quality raid experience.  That's DOODY (finder).  It's a joke.

     

    I'm sorry.  I think it's wise to make raid content more accessible and to get a larger percentage of people doing raiding, but the way to do it is not to dumb raiding down to where it's not even raiding.  The better solution for WoW was when raids shifted from stupidly large sizes (ahem, like 40) to something guilds could manage and continue easier (like 10, 20 at worst case) and when raids were setup to be large and offer a variety of challenge.  The bigger raids in WOTLK that offered both 10 and 20 (24, wtf-ever it was, it's been a few years) man, normal and hard modes, and which had wings that varied in difficulty (naxx and icc) was when raiding was most certainly at its peak in WoW - guilds of all kinds of variance in ability and size could raid.  Pugging was common but usually only got so far and you still had to have a clue.  You could be casual and low geared and still get some bosses down and feel involved.  Uber guilds could get firsts, do hard modes, and be challenged.  Raiding was common and there was raiding for just about everyone who was interested.  This, IMO, is how raiding should be.

     

    One critical mistake I think being made with WildStar is to return to 40 man raiding.  There simply is not and never will be enough people doing raids of that size to justify the amount of development or development efficiency (spending huge amounts of time developing content for an extreme minority is not efficient).  I personally can't stand 40 man - it's too big.  It's too difficult to maintain a guild that can do it.  You have to be too paramilitary to make it work.  Too much redundancy and repetition in roles, no intimacy, too many delays.  It was hard enough to do back in the day of classic WoW when WoW had next to no competition.  With the state of the MMORPG genre and player mentalities these days I think it will be miraculous for 40 man raids and guilds that can field 40 regularly to happen much at all.

     

    I also advocate more niche style MMORPGs - like ones that are more old school and feature more grouping, less solo, more challenge, less ez-mode.  Yet I don't think 40-man can ever have enough players to even be niche.  It's even more fringe than that.

    A strong raiding setup and progression are things I want to see.  But I want to be able to do it without joining the army.  I'm hardly casual when it comes to raiding but I do like a more intimate setting, raiding with people I know rather than a zerg, and I like for players to have impact and for content to demand all players be important.  You don't really get that in a 40 man where it's more zerg like and where any particular individual other than the raid leader is just an anonymous cog in a big machine.

     

    It's kind of like the difference between a rock band and an orchestra.  In a 4/5 piece rock band, if the drummer keels over during a song, you kind of notice that.  There's something significant missing.  It just isn't working any more.  In an orchestra one of the 10 violinists could bail and take a leak in the middle of a song and you'd never notice a difference in the music at all.

    In a lot of 10 man raiding losing 1 or 2 people is often a wipe, especially when you're breaking new content or doing hard modes where losing anybody is the difference between success and fail.  In a 40 man, there's so much redundancy and so much more margin for error it's just not the same.  If one of your 30 dps dies, no biggie.  It's nearly as bad with even 24 man, which is why most uber guilds that do progression do 24/20 man vs 10 man - it's easier.

     

    Premium MMORPGs do not feature built-in cheating via cash for gold pay 2 win. PLAY to win or don't play.

  • AldersAlders Jack Burton'sPosts: 1,857Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nennafir

     I can't see myself playing a "big raids" game anymore

    So why do you care about 40-man raids then?

    Raids should not be Pug'able, ever. 

    If you can get any assortment of players together and complete a raid, then it's either been nerfed to nothing or not really a raid.

  • muchavezmuchavez asdf, VAPosts: 200Member

    Calling a LFR system a loot pinata is implying the hardest part of raiding is getting a group together.

    :)

    The LFR system did to raiding what MMA did to martial arts.  Blew away of the BS arguments about the subject.

    Raiding is content designed to be beaten and isn't hard, challenging, or takes a lot of skill.  It only takes time.  With youtube you can take any raid and make it farm status/puggable as long as you have enough people, and with a LFR system this is exactly what happens.  Which is why you have raiders in this thread saying LFR will make raids puggable / a loot pinata.  Because the hardest part about raiding is getting 40 people together.  Not the actual raid itself.

    Needless to say this is making people very angry, because they no longer get to stand in the capital city with their shiny purples talking down to people about how skilled they are.  With LFR, now everyone has purples.

     

  • TurtlesrunTurtlesrun LondonPosts: 28Member

    to say that raiding didn't take skill only time means u never raided seriously in anyway things like AQ 40 or Ulduar 25man HC mode which were both time consuming and Exteremly difficult though I agree that a LFR feature is negative in the way it allows anyone to roll up and get a raid without the bother.

    It was only made a loot piñata because of the way wow converted there LFR system. and on the original point yes it took time to get a 40 man raid up in vanilia, but you know what if you really wanted to raid properly you should have done the prep work, and have a better organised guild. As for my guys our raids didn't happen fast but that's because we prepped in advance and got things going on time everytime "sort of".

    my only fear is the breaks "Bio breaks" one goes everyone goes we need a clock of sorts that shouts at the Bio Breakers

  • dwarfkinglordsdwarfkinglords Decline to Identify, CAPosts: 75Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Voqar

    Looking for raid is looking for fail.  No raid worth doing can be pugged by a random assortment of people just thrown together.  I mean, pugging some raids should be and has been doable in good raiding games over time, but there's a big difference between a leader with a clue putting together a pug raid with some known commodities, having everyone in VOIP, filling roles intelligently with appropriately geared and clued layers, and having some automated system just plucking X number of random people and dumping them into a raid.

     

    It works in WoW because they dumb the raids down to the point where they require no effort and are raids only in that there's a raid group.  Friends who still play WoW will be in those raids, afk, in vent talking to me while working or otherwise not doing anything much but autoattack, and telling me about epics they're getting while doing nothing.  That's not a quality raid experience.  That's DOODY (finder).  It's a joke.

     

    I'm sorry.  I think it's wise to make raid content more accessible and to get a larger percentage of people doing raiding, but the way to do it is not to dumb raiding down to where it's not even raiding.  The better solution for WoW was when raids shifted from stupidly large sizes (ahem, like 40) to something guilds could manage and continue easier (like 10, 20 at worst case) and when raids were setup to be large and offer a variety of challenge.  The bigger raids in WOTLK that offered both 10 and 20 (24, wtf-ever it was, it's been a few years) man, normal and hard modes, and which had wings that varied in difficulty (naxx and icc) was when raiding was most certainly at its peak in WoW - guilds of all kinds of variance in ability and size could raid.  Pugging was common but usually only got so far and you still had to have a clue.  You could be casual and low geared and still get some bosses down and feel involved.  Uber guilds could get firsts, do hard modes, and be challenged.  Raiding was common and there was raiding for just about everyone who was interested.  This, IMO, is how raiding should be.

     

    One critical mistake I think being made with WildStar is to return to 40 man raiding.  There simply is not and never will be enough people doing raids of that size to justify the amount of development or development efficiency (spending huge amounts of time developing content for an extreme minority is not efficient).  I personally can't stand 40 man - it's too big.  It's too difficult to maintain a guild that can do it.  You have to be too paramilitary to make it work.  Too much redundancy and repetition in roles, no intimacy, too many delays.  It was hard enough to do back in the day of classic WoW when WoW had next to no competition.  With the state of the MMORPG genre and player mentalities these days I think it will be miraculous for 40 man raids and guilds that can field 40 regularly to happen much at all.

     

    I also advocate more niche style MMORPGs - like ones that are more old school and feature more grouping, less solo, more challenge, less ez-mode.  Yet I don't think 40-man can ever have enough players to even be niche.  It's even more fringe than that.

    A strong raiding setup and progression are things I want to see.  But I want to be able to do it without joining the army.  I'm hardly casual when it comes to raiding but I do like a more intimate setting, raiding with people I know rather than a zerg, and I like for players to have impact and for content to demand all players be important.  You don't really get that in a 40 man where it's more zerg like and where any particular individual other than the raid leader is just an anonymous cog in a big machine.

     

    It's kind of like the difference between a rock band and an orchestra.  In a 4/5 piece rock band, if the drummer keels over during a song, you kind of notice that.  There's something significant missing.  It just isn't working any more.  In an orchestra one of the 10 violinists could bail and take a leak in the middle of a song and you'd never notice a difference in the music at all.

    In a lot of 10 man raiding losing 1 or 2 people is often a wipe, especially when you're breaking new content or doing hard modes where losing anybody is the difference between success and fail.  In a 40 man, there's so much redundancy and so much more margin for error it's just not the same.  If one of your 30 dps dies, no biggie.  It's nearly as bad with even 24 man, which is why most uber guilds that do progression do 24/20 man vs 10 man - it's easier.

     

    hi super elitest,

     

    so when they impliment the feature, dont use it, they have a looking for a dungeon feature so i dont see why they wouldn't.. stand aroudn and do whatever you do because your hardcore.. while i instantly get  my fun on...

     

    i dont have friiends playing all the time and not enough of them, so LFG function is exactly what every mmo needs

  • ZenMorphZenMorph St Albans, WVPosts: 9Member
    What LFR truly represents is a means to allow access to content that some groups of players wouldn't normally see. In that respect, it's not a big deal. That being said, WOW's LFR content is sleep-inducing.
  • jesusjuice69jesusjuice69 Route 69, NDPosts: 276Member
    Originally posted by dwarfkinglords
    Originally posted by Voqar

    Looking for raid is looking for fail.  No raid worth doing can be pugged by a random assortment of people just thrown together.  I mean, pugging some raids should be and has been doable in good raiding games over time, but there's a big difference between a leader with a clue putting together a pug raid with some known commodities, having everyone in VOIP, filling roles intelligently with appropriately geared and clued layers, and having some automated system just plucking X number of random people and dumping them into a raid.

     

    It works in WoW because they dumb the raids down to the point where they require no effort and are raids only in that there's a raid group.  Friends who still play WoW will be in those raids, afk, in vent talking to me while working or otherwise not doing anything much but autoattack, and telling me about epics they're getting while doing nothing.  That's not a quality raid experience.  That's DOODY (finder).  It's a joke.

     

    I'm sorry.  I think it's wise to make raid content more accessible and to get a larger percentage of people doing raiding, but the way to do it is not to dumb raiding down to where it's not even raiding.  The better solution for WoW was when raids shifted from stupidly large sizes (ahem, like 40) to something guilds could manage and continue easier (like 10, 20 at worst case) and when raids were setup to be large and offer a variety of challenge.  The bigger raids in WOTLK that offered both 10 and 20 (24, wtf-ever it was, it's been a few years) man, normal and hard modes, and which had wings that varied in difficulty (naxx and icc) was when raiding was most certainly at its peak in WoW - guilds of all kinds of variance in ability and size could raid.  Pugging was common but usually only got so far and you still had to have a clue.  You could be casual and low geared and still get some bosses down and feel involved.  Uber guilds could get firsts, do hard modes, and be challenged.  Raiding was common and there was raiding for just about everyone who was interested.  This, IMO, is how raiding should be.

     

    One critical mistake I think being made with WildStar is to return to 40 man raiding.  There simply is not and never will be enough people doing raids of that size to justify the amount of development or development efficiency (spending huge amounts of time developing content for an extreme minority is not efficient).  I personally can't stand 40 man - it's too big.  It's too difficult to maintain a guild that can do it.  You have to be too paramilitary to make it work.  Too much redundancy and repetition in roles, no intimacy, too many delays.  It was hard enough to do back in the day of classic WoW when WoW had next to no competition.  With the state of the MMORPG genre and player mentalities these days I think it will be miraculous for 40 man raids and guilds that can field 40 regularly to happen much at all.

     

    I also advocate more niche style MMORPGs - like ones that are more old school and feature more grouping, less solo, more challenge, less ez-mode.  Yet I don't think 40-man can ever have enough players to even be niche.  It's even more fringe than that.

    A strong raiding setup and progression are things I want to see.  But I want to be able to do it without joining the army.  I'm hardly casual when it comes to raiding but I do like a more intimate setting, raiding with people I know rather than a zerg, and I like for players to have impact and for content to demand all players be important.  You don't really get that in a 40 man where it's more zerg like and where any particular individual other than the raid leader is just an anonymous cog in a big machine.

     

    It's kind of like the difference between a rock band and an orchestra.  In a 4/5 piece rock band, if the drummer keels over during a song, you kind of notice that.  There's something significant missing.  It just isn't working any more.  In an orchestra one of the 10 violinists could bail and take a leak in the middle of a song and you'd never notice a difference in the music at all.

    In a lot of 10 man raiding losing 1 or 2 people is often a wipe, especially when you're breaking new content or doing hard modes where losing anybody is the difference between success and fail.  In a 40 man, there's so much redundancy and so much more margin for error it's just not the same.  If one of your 30 dps dies, no biggie.  It's nearly as bad with even 24 man, which is why most uber guilds that do progression do 24/20 man vs 10 man - it's easier.

     

    hi super elitest,

     

    so when they impliment the feature, dont use it, they have a looking for a dungeon feature so i dont see why they wouldn't.. stand aroudn and do whatever you do because your hardcore.. while i instantly get  my fun on...

     

    i dont have friiends playing all the time and not enough of them, so LFG function is exactly what every mmo needs

    Don't hold your breadth, they said with 100% certainty that they would not add LFR into the game.  Sorry, but if you need this crutch, then you better stick with WoW.

     

    It isn't a matter of 'don't like don't use it'.  It is a game breaking addition that essentially destroys the whole MMORPG.    The biggest mistake Blizzard ever made was inventing this feature.

  • RoxtarrRoxtarr Freeland, MI, MIPosts: 1,122Member
    The 4 dungeons, 6 adventures, battleground and arena PvP will all have a LFG finder. Raids will not. Raids will not be doable without a coordinated guild effort.

    If in 1982 we played with the current mentality, we would have burned down all the pac man games since the red ghost was clearly OP. Instead we just got better at the game.
    image

  • Sk1ppeRSk1ppeR PlovdivPosts: 511Member

    The only game I cared about raids was Lineage 2. Somehow I always managed to make a schedule for raiding. In a non-instanced open world pvp/pk game. Now that was fun :U Think i broke my keyboard once or twice at it :UUUUU. But yeah my point is, you don't really need some tool to make you look like a tool when hunting raids. 

     

    Reading more and more in this forum makes me think ... what happened with the loyalty of gamers? There were times when you join a guild and that's it, you get accepted to the pack, you show what you're worth and you move up the ranks and do stuff with the big boys, or you play long enough to become the "big boy in town" or your group is THE group. I'm doing the same in Gw2 and my group became THE group when it comes down to dungeoning or casual wvw fun (ganking people while naked etc) but I start to see this kind of behavior less and less nowadays :U I once was proud wearing a clan crest right next to my character's name :U everyone was. Now less and less people care for stuff like that ._. Just give them people raids and dungeons, countless of them so they can blow quick 20 minutes

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