OP simply put who cares? Do you even ever play in a Massively online game, by which basically you'd have to always be in a 40 person raid. No most people play with a small group of friends and that's just fine. In big guilds your just a number. A brick in the wall.
I don't need to wait in line to finally get a shot at a Boss spawn or feel the secret lost dungeon I am in is grand central station to have fun. I'd bet most people if they are honest with themselves don't need that either and don't want that. So LoL at Diablo where you can play with 4 friends at a time. ( Which is probably more then +50% of online gamers can generally get together at time reasonably) We'll have fun playing with friends and you can have fun fighting the literal term of MMO and being the term police.
Clearly, the game was a financial disaster and never was "massively" (or massive if you insist that's the right grammar) from the beginning. There were only 5 servers at the time of launch. If my memory serves typical AOL server capacity for games in the 1990s was 50. It gradually raised to 100 at the end of the millennium when Anarchy and RuneScape and a small handful of MMORPGs started to turn the world alive.So here you go, M59 supported 250 or 500 concurrent users top. Your first ever "Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game" or 3DO's "Large-N-Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game" never got off the commercial ground. It didn't even make enough to cover a tiny server cost.
Massively or Massive? It doesn't matter to me as I am not a grammar police. I will gladly take QQ Moar, TL;DR and XOXOXO as modern Cyber-English any day as long as the crowd are happy with their usages, spelling and meanings. Qualifier or Quantifier? it may be a moot point to many, but to me it is just a Beautifier.
Whether it made enough money to get off the commercial ground is irrelevant. Whether the game was a success is irrelvant.
What matters is, was it (or possible if it never made it off the ground would it) have been able to host more than a traditional multiplayer.
If the traditional multiplayer at the time was 50, and m59 could host 100, or later 250-500 concurrent users well that is more than 50, which was ore than the traditional mutliplayer, therefore it was massively multiplayer.
You are going back to the same question asked by many posters on this thread that have yet to be answered. What is the "traditional multiplayer" now? 1,000? 10,000? 100,000? 1 million?
To answer the question on topic. what exactly is the meaning of "massive" is the key point and even if you avoid using M59's definition of "large-n multiplayer rpg" you still have to explain where you pulled your definition of "massiveness" in term of "traditional multiplayer" from.
Unfortunatley thats all your going to get. Massive or massively is not a specific number, it is a term that is relative to something else. In this case that other part is multiplayer, so massively mutliplayer has to have more than traditional multiplayer. Thats it, thats all.
How many does multiplayer traditionally have? No idea anymore. It may not even mean anything really becaues multiplayer games have also become very big.
In my opinion if any game is capable of hosting hundreds to thousands on a single server, it's an MMO.
If tradtional muliplayer was 50, anything more is massive. Last I heard (a number of years ago now) it was around 250, so anything more than that is massive. Now games like Lol and defiance have blurred the lines, and can hold thousands - making them MMO's. So one of the terms either mutliplayer or Massively Multiplayer became absorbed.
That means you are trying to make a weight measurement without a scale. You can use your guesstimation or eyeball tests but nothing is verifiable, let alone precise and fair judgement.
Since different people make different guesses and eyeball tests they will never arrive at the same conclusion. In the absence of anything that can precisely tell the "massiveness" of an MMORPG there is no way to disprove whether a game is an MMORPG or not, hence there should not be any arguments for anybody whatsoever if they think MMORPGs don't have to be massive.
Originally posted by AysonoI really hate to say that word again, but "AGAIN", it is your opinion and interpretation. I don't mean your opinion is 100% right or wrong. Unless we can identify the origin of MMORPG, there is no official definition of that word, let alone whether "Massively" is used to describe the "Multiplayer Online Game" or just the "Multiplayer" aspect of the "Online Game".As long as it remains a Probatio Diabolica, neither arguments can be proven incorrect or correct. The term "MMORPG" was coined by Richard Garriott. Safko, Ron; Brake, David (2009). The Social Media Bible: Tactics, Tools, and Strategies for Business Success. Wiley. ISBN 0-470-41155-4. He used the term to describe Ultima Online. So, whatever Ultima Online was when it launched is what the term meant. Since he followed UO with Tabula Rasa, and used the term there too, we can assume that it would include whatever was included with Tabula Rasa as well. ** The original press release for UO does mention "thousands" of people playing simultaneously. Are you with us? Experience real-time social interaction with thousands of people in the same exciting game world. meet new friends and foes, engage in group combat, venture off to uncharted lands, or visit a tavern and chat with players from around the world. It's an ongoing, ever-changing world of adventure. Mass player engine allows thousands of real people to play simultaneously. Day and night effects, 3-D terrain and 16-bit color SVGA graphics. Customize your onscreen characters, including gender, skin tone, clothing and hairstyle. Detailed character-defining systems and fully simulated virtual ecology. Real-time combat, adventuring and social interaction.
Really? I didn't read his book so no argument on if he actually used the word MMORPG for UO.Assuming Lord British was the originator of MMORPG and starting using it on UO then logically UO should be officially called the first ever MMORPG. How come everybody said Meridian 59 was the first MMORPG?
Richard Garriott coined the term, but he didn't create the first game it could be applied to. Kind of like EQ and then later WoW, he saw features that could be implemented in a different way and work better.
Taking this from the wikipedia:Prior to its release, the term "massively multiplayer" and the acronym "MMPRPG",[1] "Massively Multi-Player Role-Playing Game", emerged in meetings within 3DO (beating out other monikers such as "large-n game"), as did the now-ubiquitous monthly subscription model. At the time, AOL was still charging per minute, though a change to flat fees was anticipated. The game received multiple awards, including the fantasy-role-playing game of the year for 1996. It also has had various updates throughout its life, each adding new monsters, spells, and areas. In its early years it was commonly conceived of as a graphical MUD,[2] though this term, and M59's preferred "MMPRPG", was eventually displaced by the now-ubiquitous Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game, a term coined by Richard Garriott of Ultima Online in 1997.[3]^ Meridian 59's History". In Mulligan, Jessica; Patrovsky, Bridgette. Developing Online Games: An Insider's Guide. New Riders. pp. 363371. ISBN1-59273-000-0.I didn't read the publication but if it was true "Massively Multi-Player Role-Playing Game" wasn't coined by Garriott, only that 3DO called it MMPRGP instead of MMORPG. Also please note that MUDs were also categorized as MMORPGs too and there were a lot of MUDs before M59.
Now that's interesting. I'm not that familiar with Meridian 59 at all, other than it existed, it had ugly skeletons and it's considered an MMORPG. Keep in mind that we're talking about specific terms here. Richard Garriott did coin the term, "MMORPG" and the first game it was applied to was Ultima Online. MMRPG is a different term, doesn't look like it was used publicly, and nobody outside of 3DO used it. That does not mean Richard Garriott created the genre. He just coined the term, and was successful enough with UO to get the genre on the map. Any use of the term to refer to MUDs or anything else happened after Richard Garriott coined the term. I only brought this up because people were arguing about what the term means, and what it meant. We know what it meant. It meant Ultima Online.
The focal point is not MMORPG or MPPRPG. It is "massively". Isn't "massive" the key point of discussion here? Can't you see 3DO was the first to describe on online game with "massively"?
Perhaps, but it doesn't really matter, since their definition never made it beyond their boardroom. It was never used to describe the genre, only that one game, and only privately. "MMORPG" not only got past Origin's boardroom, it is used publicly to describe an entire genre and it started with something that we can describe in a fair amount of detail.
"Massively", as part of "MMORPG" was used to describe Ultima Online, which allowed "thousands" of players into the same persistent world at the same time. There may be some quibbling over what "thousands" means, but it sets a fairly definite idea and lower bound on what "massively" means in relation to MMORPGs.
**
My stance on 3DO and "massively" could probably be explained better. It would be more likely to find the meaning in the term he coined and used to describe Ultima Online, not the term 3DO used, since the term Richard Garriott used is the one used to describe the genre.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
What a simple way to start a thread that will generate a great amount of traffic. Just start an argument about a subject that nobody can agree on. Bravo!
I recon Nari keeps throwing this one into the ring to try and get featured thread of the month under his belt.
Originally posted by AysonoI really hate to say that word again, but "AGAIN", it is your opinion and interpretation. I don't mean your opinion is 100% right or wrong. Unless we can identify the origin of MMORPG, there is no official definition of that word, let alone whether "Massively" is used to describe the "Multiplayer Online Game" or just the "Multiplayer" aspect of the "Online Game".As long as it remains a Probatio Diabolica, neither arguments can be proven incorrect or correct. The term "MMORPG" was coined by Richard Garriott. Safko, Ron; Brake, David (2009). The Social Media Bible: Tactics, Tools, and Strategies for Business Success. Wiley. ISBN 0-470-41155-4. He used the term to describe Ultima Online. So, whatever Ultima Online was when it launched is what the term meant. Since he followed UO with Tabula Rasa, and used the term there too, we can assume that it would include whatever was included with Tabula Rasa as well. ** The original press release for UO does mention "thousands" of people playing simultaneously. Are you with us? Experience real-time social interaction with thousands of people in the same exciting game world. meet new friends and foes, engage in group combat, venture off to uncharted lands, or visit a tavern and chat with players from around the world. It's an ongoing, ever-changing world of adventure. Mass player engine allows thousands of real people to play simultaneously. Day and night effects, 3-D terrain and 16-bit color SVGA graphics. Customize your onscreen characters, including gender, skin tone, clothing and hairstyle. Detailed character-defining systems and fully simulated virtual ecology. Real-time combat, adventuring and social interaction.
Really? I didn't read his book so no argument on if he actually used the word MMORPG for UO.Assuming Lord British was the originator of MMORPG and starting using it on UO then logically UO should be officially called the first ever MMORPG. How come everybody said Meridian 59 was the first MMORPG?
Richard Garriott coined the term, but he didn't create the first game it could be applied to. Kind of like EQ and then later WoW, he saw features that could be implemented in a different way and work better.
Taking this from the wikipedia:Prior to its release, the term "massively multiplayer" and the acronym "MMPRPG",[1] "Massively Multi-Player Role-Playing Game", emerged in meetings within 3DO (beating out other monikers such as "large-n game"), as did the now-ubiquitous monthly subscription model. At the time, AOL was still charging per minute, though a change to flat fees was anticipated. The game received multiple awards, including the fantasy-role-playing game of the year for 1996. It also has had various updates throughout its life, each adding new monsters, spells, and areas. In its early years it was commonly conceived of as a graphical MUD,[2] though this term, and M59's preferred "MMPRPG", was eventually displaced by the now-ubiquitous Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game, a term coined by Richard Garriott of Ultima Online in 1997.[3]^ Meridian 59's History". In Mulligan, Jessica; Patrovsky, Bridgette. Developing Online Games: An Insider's Guide. New Riders. pp. 363–371. ISBN1-59273-000-0.I didn't read the publication but if it was true "Massively Multi-Player Role-Playing Game" wasn't coined by Garriott, only that 3DO called it MMPRGP instead of MMORPG. Also please note that MUDs were also categorized as MMORPGs too and there were a lot of MUDs before M59.
Now that's interesting. I'm not that familiar with Meridian 59 at all, other than it existed, it had ugly skeletons and it's considered an MMORPG. Keep in mind that we're talking about specific terms here. Richard Garriott did coin the term, "MMORPG" and the first game it was applied to was Ultima Online. MMRPG is a different term, doesn't look like it was used publicly, and nobody outside of 3DO used it. That does not mean Richard Garriott created the genre. He just coined the term, and was successful enough with UO to get the genre on the map. Any use of the term to refer to MUDs or anything else happened after Richard Garriott coined the term. I only brought this up because people were arguing about what the term means, and what it meant. We know what it meant. It meant Ultima Online.
The focal point is not MMORPG or MPPRPG. It is "massively". Isn't "massive" the key point of discussion here? Can't you see 3DO was the first to describe on online game with "massively"?
Perhaps, but it doesn't really matter, since their definition never made it beyond their boardroom. It was never used to describe the genre, only that one game, and only privately. "MMORPG" not only got past Origin's boardroom, it is used publicly to describe an entire genre and it started with something that we can describe in a fair amount of detail.
"Massively", as part of "MMORPG" was used to describe Ultima Online, which allowed "thousands" of players into the same persistent world at the same time. There may be some quibbling over what "thousands" means, but it sets a fairly definite idea and lower bound on what "massively" means in relation to MMORPGs.
**
My stance on 3DO and "massively" could probably be explained better. It would be more likely to find the meaning in the term he coined and used to describe Ultima Online, not the term 3DO used, since the term Richard Garriott used is the one used to describe the genre.
The usage of "Massively Multiplayer Online" is similar to "Truly Free(TM)", "Made From The Best Stuff On Earth" or "Double A (beep beep) MCO".
Aion is not absolutely, totally or completely "free". Snapple is made from mostly the same "Best Stuff On Earth" every other similar beverage is made from. AAMCO is not Double-A-BEEP-BEEP-M-C-O.
I don't think anybody can argue "Truly", "Best" and "Beep Beep" are not used in their normal ways in these examples but good slogans are always palatable to consumers. They serve their products very well.
If 3DO trademarked "Massively Multiplayer" it would be a very good slogan or catch phrase for its product or array of products but for the whole online game genre to attempt to stereotype such an ambiguous phrase is not a good idea. You want to catch the attention of the audience, not to confuse them.
Originally posted by Aysono The usage of "Massively Multiplayer Online" is similar to "Truly Free(TM)", "Made From The Best Stuff On Earth" or "Double A (beep beep) MCO".Aion is not absolutely, totally or completely "free". Snapple is made from mostly the same "Best Stuff On Earth" every other similar beverage is made from. AAMCO is not Double-A-BEEP-BEEP-M-C-O.I don't think anybody can argue "Truly", "Best" and "Beep Beep" are not used in their normal ways in these examples but good slogans are always palatable to consumers. They serve their products very well.If 3DO trademarked "Massively Multiplayer" it would be a very good slogan or catch phrase for its product or array of products but for the whole online game genre to attempt to stereotype such an ambiguous phrase is not a good idea. You want to catch the attention of the audience, not to confuse them.
This website is called "MMORPG.com", not "MMRPG.com" or any other variation of those words. "MMORPG" is the phrase that matters because it's the one that's used. The phrase started with Richard Garriott and his usage of it. It doesn't really matter what anyone else did, because their terms fell out of use or never made it to the public to begin with. In short, Richard Garriott and Origin succeeded where others failed.
It is easy to see what he meant by "MMORPG", because he made a bullet list of the features he was including in the definition for "MMORPG". It was the feature list for Ultima Online. It's easy to see what people saw when they saw "MMORPG" because what they saw was Ultima Online. After UO, it was pretty easy to apply the term to other games. When people saw "MMORPG", they had an idea of what they were getting into. Shared world, thousands of people online at the same time.
The idea that the history of the term is somehow mysterious or unknowable is just silly. There may be slight variations on the interpretation, but the meaning of the term from the start is very clear.
What it means now is much less clear, however, the idea of thousands of concurrent players still persists, even if it isn't universal. The phrase "many players" or a "massive number of" players is sometimes used. Still, "thousands" comes up regularly.
http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/M/MMORPG.html Short for massively multiplayer online role-playing game it is a type of game genre. MMORPGs are online role-playing multiplayer games which allow thousands of gamers to play in the game's evolving virtual world at the same time via the Internet.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massively_multiplayer_online_role-playing_game Massively multiplayer online role-playing game (MMORPG) is a genre of role-playing video games or web browser based games in which a very large number of players interact with one another within a virtual game world. ... In many MMORPGs the number of players in one world is often limited to around a few thousand
http://geekdictionary.computing.net/define/mmorpg MMORPG is an acronym for Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game. These are role-playing games where thousands of gamers play online in a virtual and persistent environment on the Internet.
What a simple way to start a thread that will generate a great amount of traffic. Just start an argument about a subject that nobody can agree on. Bravo!
I recon Nari keeps throwing this one into the ring to try and get featured thread of the month under his belt.
Yeah .. it works pretty well. There won't be much discussion if people can agree on things.
In fact, are you new? You don't know that any topic that calls into question of the definition of MMORPGs will get more traffic than the SF bay bridge during rush hour?
My stance on 3DO and "massively" could probably be explained better. It would be more likely to find the meaning in the term he coined and used to describe Ultima Online, not the term 3DO used, since the term Richard Garriott used is the one used to describe the genre.
wow ... people are still trying to interpret the words? Apparently when these websites categorize MMORPGs, they don't really care about what Richard Garriott has to say.
My stance on 3DO and "massively" could probably be explained better. It would be more likely to find the meaning in the term he coined and used to describe Ultima Online, not the term 3DO used, since the term Richard Garriott used is the one used to describe the genre.
wow ... people are still trying to interpret the words? Apparently when these websites categorize MMORPGs, they don't really care about what Richard Garriott has to say.
This website doesnt categorize all these games as MO's they have an online function. and for this website to function it needs moneys. Advertising and having links to those games brings in moneys. More then if they would just be about MMORPG's so there is your awnser. The genre is stil defined as it always has been. It is just wrong usage of the term by people (the mmorpg team consists of people like any of us).
Same goes for the other websites. its all about money.
How is this even a discussion? The word "Massive" is the first word in the acronym 'MMO'. It is used to denote a game that has hundreds to thousands of concurrent players on one shard, and most true MMOs have multiple shards with hundreds to thousands of players online concurrently per shard. League of Legends is not an MMO, sure it has millions of players, but it is a lobby game, and it has its own genre, MOBA (Multiplayer online battle arena) World of Tanks is another lobby game in the same vein.
Just because a game has a lot of players does not make it an MMO. Halo had/has millions of players and it was and still never will be considered an MMO because it has it's own genre. Just because a website generally dedicated to MMOs puts a game on their gamelist doesn't make it an MMO, it could just be a really popular game.
Simply put, MMOs must be massive because the word massive is the first word in the acronym. L2ClassifyGenres.
Comments
OP simply put who cares? Do you even ever play in a Massively online game, by which basically you'd have to always be in a 40 person raid. No most people play with a small group of friends and that's just fine. In big guilds your just a number. A brick in the wall.
I don't need to wait in line to finally get a shot at a Boss spawn or feel the secret lost dungeon I am in is grand central station to have fun. I'd bet most people if they are honest with themselves don't need that either and don't want that. So LoL at Diablo where you can play with 4 friends at a time. ( Which is probably more then +50% of online gamers can generally get together at time reasonably) We'll have fun playing with friends and you can have fun fighting the literal term of MMO and being the term police.
That means you are trying to make a weight measurement without a scale. You can use your guesstimation or eyeball tests but nothing is verifiable, let alone precise and fair judgement.
Since different people make different guesses and eyeball tests they will never arrive at the same conclusion. In the absence of anything that can precisely tell the "massiveness" of an MMORPG there is no way to disprove whether a game is an MMORPG or not, hence there should not be any arguments for anybody whatsoever if they think MMORPGs don't have to be massive.
Perhaps, but it doesn't really matter, since their definition never made it beyond their boardroom. It was never used to describe the genre, only that one game, and only privately. "MMORPG" not only got past Origin's boardroom, it is used publicly to describe an entire genre and it started with something that we can describe in a fair amount of detail.
"Massively", as part of "MMORPG" was used to describe Ultima Online, which allowed "thousands" of players into the same persistent world at the same time. There may be some quibbling over what "thousands" means, but it sets a fairly definite idea and lower bound on what "massively" means in relation to MMORPGs.
**
My stance on 3DO and "massively" could probably be explained better. It would be more likely to find the meaning in the term he coined and used to describe Ultima Online, not the term 3DO used, since the term Richard Garriott used is the one used to describe the genre.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I recon Nari keeps throwing this one into the ring to try and get featured thread of the month under his belt.
The usage of "Massively Multiplayer Online" is similar to "Truly Free(TM)", "Made From The Best Stuff On Earth" or "Double A (beep beep) MCO".
Aion is not absolutely, totally or completely "free". Snapple is made from mostly the same "Best Stuff On Earth" every other similar beverage is made from. AAMCO is not Double-A-BEEP-BEEP-M-C-O.
I don't think anybody can argue "Truly", "Best" and "Beep Beep" are not used in their normal ways in these examples but good slogans are always palatable to consumers. They serve their products very well.
If 3DO trademarked "Massively Multiplayer" it would be a very good slogan or catch phrase for its product or array of products but for the whole online game genre to attempt to stereotype such an ambiguous phrase is not a good idea. You want to catch the attention of the audience, not to confuse them.
This website is called "MMORPG.com", not "MMRPG.com" or any other variation of those words. "MMORPG" is the phrase that matters because it's the one that's used. The phrase started with Richard Garriott and his usage of it. It doesn't really matter what anyone else did, because their terms fell out of use or never made it to the public to begin with. In short, Richard Garriott and Origin succeeded where others failed.
It is easy to see what he meant by "MMORPG", because he made a bullet list of the features he was including in the definition for "MMORPG". It was the feature list for Ultima Online. It's easy to see what people saw when they saw "MMORPG" because what they saw was Ultima Online. After UO, it was pretty easy to apply the term to other games. When people saw "MMORPG", they had an idea of what they were getting into. Shared world, thousands of people online at the same time.
The idea that the history of the term is somehow mysterious or unknowable is just silly. There may be slight variations on the interpretation, but the meaning of the term from the start is very clear.
What it means now is much less clear, however, the idea of thousands of concurrent players still persists, even if it isn't universal. The phrase "many players" or a "massive number of" players is sometimes used. Still, "thousands" comes up regularly.
**
This is my favorite definition.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Yeah .. it works pretty well. There won't be much discussion if people can agree on things.
Given the volume of post, i would say many here.
In fact, are you new? You don't know that any topic that calls into question of the definition of MMORPGs will get more traffic than the SF bay bridge during rush hour?
wow ... people are still trying to interpret the words? Apparently when these websites categorize MMORPGs, they don't really care about what Richard Garriott has to say.
This website doesnt categorize all these games as MO's they have an online function. and for this website to function it needs moneys. Advertising and having links to those games brings in moneys. More then if they would just be about MMORPG's so there is your awnser. The genre is stil defined as it always has been. It is just wrong usage of the term by people (the mmorpg team consists of people like any of us).
Same goes for the other websites. its all about money.
How is this even a discussion? The word "Massive" is the first word in the acronym 'MMO'. It is used to denote a game that has hundreds to thousands of concurrent players on one shard, and most true MMOs have multiple shards with hundreds to thousands of players online concurrently per shard. League of Legends is not an MMO, sure it has millions of players, but it is a lobby game, and it has its own genre, MOBA (Multiplayer online battle arena) World of Tanks is another lobby game in the same vein.
Just because a game has a lot of players does not make it an MMO. Halo had/has millions of players and it was and still never will be considered an MMO because it has it's own genre. Just because a website generally dedicated to MMOs puts a game on their gamelist doesn't make it an MMO, it could just be a really popular game.
Simply put, MMOs must be massive because the word massive is the first word in the acronym. L2ClassifyGenres.
Because MMORPG websites are ignoring the word "massive" in their categorization? Let me demonstrate:
http://www.whatmmorpg.com/fantasy-mmorpg-games.php
Note that on top .. it says "fantasy MMORPGs". Note that there are many categories listed on the left .. and "fantasy MMORPG" is only one.
Note that under this category, the game DDO, LoL and NWO are listed. They are arguably NOT massive.
Now .. tell us how you disagree with these websites and how you are going to make them admit their errors and repent to the "true" (TM) MMORPG gods.