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So..perma death MMO servers

naZchoconaZchoco athens, TNPosts: 82Member

Preface: Me and a buddy who have played/beta tested almost every MMO since 99' were just talking in mumble.

 

Question: Why has no game released a perma death server for us hard-core players? 

 

Opinion: I understand some games (most) are hurting for subscribers and it would be desolate. But a game like SWTOR when it first came out, or WoW (even now) releasing one, or any of the big titles like FFXIV.

You're going to get tons of publicity - which would usher in carebears to the softcore severs just by hearing about your game, and you would get tons of us hardcore players at least giving your game a shot if we hear you did it right.

 

We're basically talking the perfect hardcore players dream game..but with existing games that we all whine about. These games already have full foundations, most of them are great games in their own ways, but they just failed miserably with content and easy mode.

All you have to do is turn on an insta-death switch.

 

Now think a little bit harder about what this means...

 

All crafting is finally meaningful and therefore the auction houses are all constantly cycled, no stale moments. You constanlty have herbs and ore and cloth being farmed for potions, gems for sockets, armor. And you wouldn't be to hasty to level this up as they require you to go to dangerous places where normally you don't mind because you face rolled the content and geared out and then went back to these places fully equipped and got what you needed.

 

You would spend a full week on some dungeons just preparing. 

 

Raids would be the most incredible things every encountered because every single moment and potion and movement and preperation strategy counted.

 

You would form endless bounds with people like we did back in EQ because you would NEED groups, you would NEED communication, you would NEED partners in crafting. COMMUNITY.

 

PvP is another story - like I said we just started this discussion in mumble and haven't elaborated too much...

 

What do you guys think?

 

This isn't a flame thread. This is more of a well this WOULDN'T work , and this WOULD. Share your opinoins. Get this ball rolling. Who knows - if a developer is smart he is watchign these forums like a hawk. And this could spark some interest.

 

The closest thing we have right now is EQ which is my favorite MMO of all time - but outdated. And it's not permadeath it's just corpse runs. 

 

EvE is close. You lose your ship and such. Cargo bays.. etc. But PvE you get your stuff back. But for the most part you contain your clones and such.

 

Darkfall - just open loot.

 

 

We were just imaging a vanilla WoW server released like this. A SWTOR server like this. A FFXIV server such as this.

 

Our favorite part was talking about Age of Wushu and this idea. Phew. That would be insane lol. So i guess we touched on PvP :P

 

 

I just think it would be a great idea for new games releasing to incorporate. It wouldn't touch you care bears. And us hard core players would be all for trying it. And it's one server. It's not like if it fails the game fails - they would probably just leave the niche players there and let them be.

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Comments

  • kragekrage Miami, FLPosts: 419Member

    I would mess around on a perma-death server from time to time, probably would not main there though, too much stress to main there and play regularly to experience the full game lol.

     

    There should be perma-death, or hardcore death penalty play options on normal servers in instances, let people gamble the death penalty for better rewards imo. I would risk permadeath or a set amount of "lives" in certain PVE instances with a solid group of guildees and friends for the chance of getting legendary stuff.

     

    I would even love to see a highlander like server lol, everyone gets 1 life on the server with the goal of killing other players to harvest their powers. There can be only one! So the winner must be last man standing to receive an amazing reward, and can only get the reward be being the last one, if not server resets in time and starts a new  open world "tournament"

    Basically like your point, there needs to be some more experimentation with rulesets and variety, especially from games with one foot in the grave.

    image
  • rojoArcueidrojoArcueid hell, NJPosts: 6,787Member Uncommon

    there are not enough "hardcore" players that want perma death to maintain a perma deth-only server running. You know it will be an almost empty server and the company would feel its just a waste of money.

     

    In my personal opinion, If enough people demanded it and the company see they can benefit from it then they would add a separate server and set it to perma death.

    image
  • PapamacPapamac Winnipeg, MBPosts: 159Member
    Originally posted by naZchoco

     

    Question: Why has no game released a perma death server for us hard-core players? 

     

    Answer:  Because there is no profit in it. 

     

  • Panther2103Panther2103 Edmonds, WAPosts: 2,365Member Uncommon
    The problem with Perma-Death servers and games with Perma-Death in general is that it's fun in the beginning but becomes a problem later on. I'm all for having the option, but even games that did have it, like Diablo and things like that you notice a very downhill trend with the amount of people who actually do it. It starts out relatively high, 10k online on that specific type, then now I go on Diablo 3 and see maybe 1k people who are hardcore characters, and multiply that by a dozen or so for the normal servers. Now that would all be fine and dandy, but if you think about an actual MMORPG, and how many people it would require to do certain tasks, and how hard it is already if the game is hurting to find a group, the server would always be like that. There isn't enough players that would enjoy that to physically justify having a server like that. I guess if it was a super easy leveling system with super easy gear grinding, then maybe it would be okay, like Realm of the Mad God, but even then that game died off mainly because of lacking content. I feel like it would be something fun in the beginning but people get tired of doing the same thing over and over after dying. Especially a giant advancement system like in most MMORPG's.
  • RateroRatero Tallassee, ALPosts: 337Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by naZchoco

    Preface: Me and a buddy who have played/beta tested almost every MMO since 99' were just talking in mumble.

     

    Question: Why has no game released a perma death server for us hard-core players? 

    Answer:  If you want perma-death so much... just delete your character each and every time your character dies.

    Problem solved.

     

    Ratero.

  • Four0SixFour0Six Missoula, MTPosts: 1,181Member Uncommon

    Isn't there that DayZ mod or something?

     

    Meh, here is the same thing I say every time this pops up.

     

    You can't have serious "perma-death" until you can GUARENTEE connection. When I was playing DF:UW someone in the neighborhood was maybe stealing service, or who knows what, but for 2 weeks my net would drop 2-3 times a day. Cable company came, gave me a new router, all the jazz. Finally told me that there was static coming from somewhere within 2 blocks. No, they weren't intending to dig up all the line to find it. So yeah, bring on the "perma-death". Just fix that first, since the number 1 ticket support will receive on that server, is "connection lost, can I has character back?"

     

    My coppers

  • dorugudorugu falkenbergPosts: 166Member Uncommon
    y dont yu implement perma death on yur own? just delete th character tht died n bam yu have perma death n have to start from scratch again :)for i doubt theres enough ppl tht wants it to justify a server built around it after all the costs doesnt end with the servers they need techies and band with and so on as well
  • KwanseiKwansei HyogoPosts: 334Member

    EQ1 had a permadeath server back in the day. At first  was a bit ppopular then it died down.  I also think the MMO version of PC hit Wozardry also had permadeath. 

    edit Discord was he name of the server was PVP and permadeath. mages were king

  • kragekrage Miami, FLPosts: 419Member

    Deleting your character on death would be perma-death but its so one dimensional compared to the idea of risk vs reward...its all risk and no reward only inconvenience.

     

    They should just add a player set death penalty slider in games, wanna have nothing more than repair cost on death like the standard? Set it to zero! Want to suffer the pain of loss when your character breathes their last breathe because you didnt block, dodge, roll out of an attack? Set it to maximum.

     

    When at 0 you get 0 bonus to loot and no stat bonus

    When you set to max you get double or more bonus to loot drops and a minor or even major bonus to stats to make it worthwhile. 

     

    Cannot change the slider while in combat, and bam you have yourself a new form of hardcore magic find anywhere in the world lol

    image
  • DenambrenDenambren Montreal, QCPosts: 320Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Rhonen
    Originally posted by naZchoco

    Preface: Me and a buddy who have played/beta tested almost every MMO since 99' were just talking in mumble.

     

    Question: Why has no game released a perma death server for us hard-core players? 

    Answer:  If you want perma-death so much... just delete your character each and every time your character dies.

    Problem solved.

     

    Ratero.

    Spoken like someone who has no concept of the appeal of permadeath servers! Congrats!

     

    Let me help you out a little with a short explanation of how the multiplayer permadeath server philosophy works. However, it's still up to you to put the pieces together and figure it out. Good luck!

     

    So in a regular MMO where death has little meaning, people play out their characters with no fear for the consequences of their actions. Other player's deaths and their own deaths are meaningless. Your average player is fine with this, since they are just playing the game casually and having to walk back to their corpse can seem like a real pain in the butt. The fact you need to spend a minute or two to walk to your corpse in Warcraft can feel like punishment enough. The shame of dying in a group of players is sometimes punishment enough even if you get rezzed ten seconds after being killed. For a lot of players, this kind of death has enough punishment, and most of those players are happy with this kind of death penalty.

    And then you have players who imagine playing in a world where death has consequence, both for yourself and for other players. It's the kind of world where players are more cautious when running into each other in a PvP environment, and more cautious about preparing for group battles even in PvE. Players take hidden paths to move from place to place when they're unsure of what they might meet, and even players looking to grief other players in pvp tend to be more conservative when ganking weak-seeming targets, because they know they might get lured into a trap and be potentially ambushed and killed by unseen hunter players.

    So you see, playing in a normal server and erasing your character when you die does not achieve the desired effect, but thanks for trying to solve the problem with an arrogant dismissal.

  • RateroRatero Tallassee, ALPosts: 337Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Denambren
    Originally posted by Rhonen
    Originally posted by naZchoco

    Preface: Me and a buddy who have played/beta tested almost every MMO since 99' were just talking in mumble.

     

    Question: Why has no game released a perma death server for us hard-core players? 

    Answer:  If you want perma-death so much... just delete your character each and every time your character dies.

    Problem solved.

     

    Ratero.

    Spoken like someone who has no concept of the appeal of permadeath servers! Congrats!

     

    Let me help you out a little with a short explanation of how the multiplayer permadeath server philosophy works. However, it's still up to you to put the pieces together and figure it out. Good luck!

     

    So in a regular MMO where death has little meaning, people play out their characters with no fear for the consequences of their actions. Other player's deaths and their own deaths are meaningless. Your average player is fine with this, since they are just playing the game casually and having to walk back to their corpse can seem like a real pain in the butt. The fact you need to spend a minute or two to walk to your corpse in Warcraft can feel like punishment enough. The shame of dying in a group of players is sometimes punishment enough even if you get rezzed ten seconds after being killed. For a lot of players, this kind of death has enough punishment, and most of those players are happy with this kind of death penalty.

    And then you have players who imagine playing in a world where death has consequence, both for yourself and for other players. It's the kind of world where players are more cautious when running into each other in a PvP environment, and more cautious about preparing for group battles even in PvE. Players take hidden paths to move from place to place when they're unsure of what they might meet, and even players looking to grief other players in pvp tend to be more conservative when ganking weak-seeming targets, because they know they might get lured into a trap and be potentially ambushed and killed by unseen hunter players.

    So you see, playing in a normal server and erasing your character when you die does not achieve the desired effect, but thanks for trying to solve the problem with an arrogant dismissal.

    And here we go again... you can "imagine" all you like; so in your "own private Idaho", on death,  you can delete your characters to your hearts content and "Imagine" that I'm doing the same.  However, I won't be doing so since I prefer not to "imagine" playing in a perma-death game and thus I will not be deleting my character. 

    I love it when people say stuff like "Spoken like someone who has no concept of the appeal of permadeath servers!" like it takes a mental Giant to understand the concept of the UNappealing nature of permadeath games.  However, if you find it so appealing to play "hard core" perma-death games then load one up and play, or you can delete your characters on a normal server.  Now everyone is happy.

    From your posts, I think you'r trying to convince yourself on how great it is rather than convincing someone like me who would rather not play such a game.

    There are very few perma-death games out there... very few.  I wonder why that could be?

    Ratero.

  • naZchoconaZchoco athens, TNPosts: 82Member
    Originally posted by Denambren
    Originally posted by Rhonen
    Originally posted by naZchoco

    Preface: Me and a buddy who have played/beta tested almost every MMO since 99' were just talking in mumble.

     

    Question: Why has no game released a perma death server for us hard-core players? 

    Answer:  If you want perma-death so much... just delete your character each and every time your character dies.

    Problem solved.

     

    Ratero.

    Spoken like someone who has no concept of the appeal of permadeath servers! Congrats!

     

    Let me help you out a little with a short explanation of how the multiplayer permadeath server philosophy works. However, it's still up to you to put the pieces together and figure it out. Good luck!

     

    So in a regular MMO where death has little meaning, people play out their characters with no fear for the consequences of their actions. Other player's deaths and their own deaths are meaningless. Your average player is fine with this, since they are just playing the game casually and having to walk back to their corpse can seem like a real pain in the butt. The fact you need to spend a minute or two to walk to your corpse in Warcraft can feel like punishment enough. The shame of dying in a group of players is sometimes punishment enough even if you get rezzed ten seconds after being killed. For a lot of players, this kind of death has enough punishment, and most of those players are happy with this kind of death penalty.

    And then you have players who imagine playing in a world where death has consequence, both for yourself and for other players. It's the kind of world where players are more cautious when running into each other in a PvP environment, and more cautious about preparing for group battles even in PvE. Players take hidden paths to move from place to place when they're unsure of what they might meet, and even players looking to grief other players in pvp tend to be more conservative when ganking weak-seeming targets, because they know they might get lured into a trap and be potentially ambushed and killed by unseen hunter players.

    So you see, playing in a normal server and erasing your character when you die does not achieve the desired effect, but thanks for trying to solve the problem with an arrogant dismissal.

    ^ This.

     

     

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,680Member Uncommon

     

    Question: Why has no game released a perma death server for us hard-core players? 

     http://www.wizardrythegame.com

     

    All you have to do is turn on an insta-death switch.

    ...and support a separate branch of code, as it's more than just tripping a flag. It's also managing the other mechanics that would be unbalanced, broken or simply vestigial if left unchanged on the permadeath server.

    A dev now has to weigh the expense of maintaining the separate branch and cost of supporting the separate server against the return from it all.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • ropeniceropenice Lake Worth, FLPosts: 587Member Uncommon
    I can only see this working on easy content type games. In games like EQ, you died too often. You'd be lucky to get to level 10. And then there would be trains, LD, falling off something high and dying, etc. Probably would make people too cautious, as well. One idea, could be to lose a level every time you die, lose hp, spells, etc. That would still make it high risk but you could still progress. And if you fall lower than level 1, you perma-die. Not the same , but still pretty hard-core.
  • RaysheRayshe London, ONPosts: 1,284Member

    Permadeath creates order is basically what is being said, Which i do agree with.  I am a ex-Face of Mankind player, and in the situation where you have no clones left and there are people out to take you down. it creates a feeling unlike any other game puts out. Also the idea of Perma death in the beginning kept alot of people from just running around shooting everything that moves. cause at that point it only takes a moment of "was that 2 clones left or 1" and suddenly Poof. all the credits, gear, rank.. everything gone.

    This however changed after the milestone patch people realized how easy it was to keep your clones organized. Thus more people wanted to turn the game into a 24-7 DeathMatch.

     

    Permadeath is good. Simply Deleting your character after each death doesnt change how people play. However having perma death forcfully remove your character changes the eviroment around you.

    Because i can.
    I'm Hopeful For Every Game, Until the Fan Boys Attack My Games. Then the Knives Come Out.
    Logic every gamers worst enemy.

  • naZchoconaZchoco athens, TNPosts: 82Member
    Originally posted by Rhonen
    Originally posted by Denambren
    Originally posted by Rhonen
    Originally posted by naZchoco

    Preface: Me and a buddy who have played/beta tested almost every MMO since 99' were just talking in mumble.

     

    Question: Why has no game released a perma death server for us hard-core players? 

    Answer:  If you want perma-death so much... just delete your character each and every time your character dies.

    Problem solved.

     

    Ratero.

    Spoken like someone who has no concept of the appeal of permadeath servers! Congrats!

     

    Let me help you out a little with a short explanation of how the multiplayer permadeath server philosophy works. However, it's still up to you to put the pieces together and figure it out. Good luck!

     

    So in a regular MMO where death has little meaning, people play out their characters with no fear for the consequences of their actions. Other player's deaths and their own deaths are meaningless. Your average player is fine with this, since they are just playing the game casually and having to walk back to their corpse can seem like a real pain in the butt. The fact you need to spend a minute or two to walk to your corpse in Warcraft can feel like punishment enough. The shame of dying in a group of players is sometimes punishment enough even if you get rezzed ten seconds after being killed. For a lot of players, this kind of death has enough punishment, and most of those players are happy with this kind of death penalty.

    And then you have players who imagine playing in a world where death has consequence, both for yourself and for other players. It's the kind of world where players are more cautious when running into each other in a PvP environment, and more cautious about preparing for group battles even in PvE. Players take hidden paths to move from place to place when they're unsure of what they might meet, and even players looking to grief other players in pvp tend to be more conservative when ganking weak-seeming targets, because they know they might get lured into a trap and be potentially ambushed and killed by unseen hunter players.

    So you see, playing in a normal server and erasing your character when you die does not achieve the desired effect, but thanks for trying to solve the problem with an arrogant dismissal.

    And here we go again... you can "imagine" all you like; so in your "own private Idaho", on death,  you can delete your characters to your hearts content and "Imagine" that I'm doing the same.  However, I won't be doing so since I prefer not to "imagine" playing in a perma-death game and thus I will not be deleting my character. 

    I love it when people say stuff like "Spoken like someone who has no concept of the appeal of permadeath servers!" like it takes a mental Giant to understand the concept of the UNappealing nature of permadeath games.  However, if you find it so appealing to play "hard core" perma-death games then load one up and play, or you can delete your characters on a normal server.  Now everyone is happy.

    From your posts, I think you'r trying to convince yourself on how great it is rather than convincing someone like me who would rather not play such a game.

    There are very few perma-death games out there... very few.  I wonder why that could be?

    Ratero.

    Ratero. 

    Do you understand it's much more than the death? Because You do not have any concept of the appeal of permadeath if you are saying go delete your character once you die.

     

    It's called a monopoly effect. 

     

    Once you implement server perma death - you create a community.

    Crafting gets more valuable. Which means materials get more valuable. Which means trading becomes MUCH MORE ESSENTIAL to the game. You may even barter with a guy you see gathering certain herbs and make a deal and talk to him every day at the same time. Creating a friendship. (Just an example).

    You would sell your crafts which would be more valuable. People would see people wearing your armor. You would make a name for yourself and gain a list of pepole who would buy/sell to you.

    With perma-death mobs become more dangerous. As do areas.

    Meaning grouping becomes a lot more essential. Meaning you make friends. You create a community.

    Where as now you round around and do DEs and Fates and don't say a word to anyone else for the most part.

     

    Dungeons! DUNGEONS! 

    Imagine? The preparation. Meaning you would HAVE to join a guild. Or have friends. You would have to plan out which potions you would need in advance, the resistants you need (earth/wind/fire etc). prepartion creates community.

     

    So, should I keep going? Or are you still too stupid to see the point of what this could do? JUST DELETE YOUR CHARACTER... what an idiotic answer bro. I said discuss here. Don't put peple down and say stupid shit.

     

    Also - read my post. I said a server. Not a full out game like this. And i am POSITIVE 2000 people would want this. Remember how Everquest servers in 99' had 2k players and that was a full server? And there were plenty of groups everywhere. Plenty of trading. Community? Friends, family, guilds, community?

     

    Oh yeah.. so the server doesn't have to have 500k people. It's one server. Dedicated to hardcore. Just like EQ had PVP servers that were super low pop compared to PvE in the day.

    And what's the cost of adding one more server? I mean seriously. To make people happy and have a niche group playing for years - i think worth it.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,680Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by naZchoco

    So, should I keep going? Or are you still too stupid to see the point of what this could do? JUST DELETE YOUR CHARACTER... what an idiotic answer bro. I said discuss here. Don't put peple down and say stupid shit.

    Also - read my post. I said a server. Not a full out game like this. And i am POSITIVE 2000 people would want this. Remember how Everquest servers in 99' had 2k players and that was a full server? And there were plenty of groups everywhere. Plenty of trading. Community? Friends, family, guilds, community?

    Oh yeah.. so the server doesn't have to have 500k people. It's one server. Dedicated to hardcore. Just like EQ had PVP servers that were super low pop compared to PvE in the day.

    And what's the cost of adding one more server? I mean seriously. To make people happy and have a niche group playing for years - i think worth it.

    If you've got the data to support the highlighted items, hit up an MMO dev with it. You'd certainly have their attention.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • RateroRatero Tallassee, ALPosts: 337Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by naZchoco
    Originally posted by Rhonen
    Originally posted by Denambren
    Originally posted by Rhonen
    Originally posted by naZchoco

    Preface: Me and a buddy who have played/beta tested almost every MMO since 99' were just talking in mumble.

     

    Question: Why has no game released a perma death server for us hard-core players? 

    Answer:  If you want perma-death so much... just delete your character each and every time your character dies.

    Problem solved.

     

    Ratero.

    Spoken like someone who has no concept of the appeal of permadeath servers! Congrats!

     

    Let me help you out a little with a short explanation of how the multiplayer permadeath server philosophy works. However, it's still up to you to put the pieces together and figure it out. Good luck!

     

    So in a regular MMO where death has little meaning, people play out their characters with no fear for the consequences of their actions. Other player's deaths and their own deaths are meaningless. Your average player is fine with this, since they are just playing the game casually and having to walk back to their corpse can seem like a real pain in the butt. The fact you need to spend a minute or two to walk to your corpse in Warcraft can feel like punishment enough. The shame of dying in a group of players is sometimes punishment enough even if you get rezzed ten seconds after being killed. For a lot of players, this kind of death has enough punishment, and most of those players are happy with this kind of death penalty.

    And then you have players who imagine playing in a world where death has consequence, both for yourself and for other players. It's the kind of world where players are more cautious when running into each other in a PvP environment, and more cautious about preparing for group battles even in PvE. Players take hidden paths to move from place to place when they're unsure of what they might meet, and even players looking to grief other players in pvp tend to be more conservative when ganking weak-seeming targets, because they know they might get lured into a trap and be potentially ambushed and killed by unseen hunter players.

    So you see, playing in a normal server and erasing your character when you die does not achieve the desired effect, but thanks for trying to solve the problem with an arrogant dismissal.

    And here we go again... you can "imagine" all you like; so in your "own private Idaho", on death,  you can delete your characters to your hearts content and "Imagine" that I'm doing the same.  However, I won't be doing so since I prefer not to "imagine" playing in a perma-death game and thus I will not be deleting my character. 

    I love it when people say stuff like "Spoken like someone who has no concept of the appeal of permadeath servers!" like it takes a mental Giant to understand the concept of the UNappealing nature of permadeath games.  However, if you find it so appealing to play "hard core" perma-death games then load one up and play, or you can delete your characters on a normal server.  Now everyone is happy.

    From your posts, I think you'r trying to convince yourself on how great it is rather than convincing someone like me who would rather not play such a game.

    There are very few perma-death games out there... very few.  I wonder why that could be?

    Ratero.

    Ratero. 

    Do you understand it's much more than the death? Because You do not have any concept of the appeal of permadeath if you are saying go delete your character once you die.

    I do understand that it is much more than "death" and some people may actually find perma-death appealing.  I'm saying that on-line games of this type would be sparsely populated and most likely not cost effective to the Dev's creating such a game to support such a low population.  IF a well established game decided to allocate some server space to create a perma-death modeled world then it may be more cost effective since the other non-perma-death servers would have more people playing on them so the loss' would not be so bad.  Thus my comment on just deleting your character when it dies, if you are hard set on a perma-death character.  However, perma-death games tend to be initially popular and then dwindle down until they scrap the server / game.

     

    It's called a monopoly effect. 

     

    Once you implement server perma death - you create a community.

    You create a community on any game you play.  The community may be good / bad / indifferent but never-the-less it is a community all the same.

    Crafting gets more valuable. Which means materials get more valuable. Which means trading becomes MUCH MORE ESSENTIAL to the game. You may even barter with a guy you see gathering certain herbs and make a deal and talk to him every day at the same time. Creating a friendship. (Just an example).

    You would sell your crafts which would be more valuable. People would see people wearing your armor. You would make a name for yourself and gain a list of pepole who would buy/sell to you.

    Depending upon how you implement the perma-death construct you may find that no one could afford your "more valuable" crafted items since each and every time you died you lost what little money you had on your last character.  On perma-death servers when you died your character is normally gone from the game along with everything on it.  So unless you had a shared account bank stash then you would be reduced to what ever your brand new character could scrap up to purchase those "more valuable" items. 

    I seriously doubt that you could spot Player A walking in town and know who crafted their armor unless the armor itself had a crafters signature on the item itself and you could see it once you inspected that person.  Otherwise one armor of a certain type is the same as all armors of that same type.  I suppose you could dye the armor but there would be only so many dyes available to use.

    If a crafter requires items to be harvested to create items and if the harvesting requires a group of people to protect the crafter as they gather the materials then that will make for one LONG day for everyone standing around looking at the crafter mining his/her 100th Iron ore node of the day.  It would not be long until people either would not wish to 'guard' the crafter as they are hunting for nodes or the crafter would just stop playing due to the issues of obtaining the materials they need to make items.

    With perma-death mobs become more dangerous. As do areas.

    True enough and all the more reason that crafters would soon quit the game.  Who want's to be a crafter and work their skills to some decent level only to get slaughtered by an angry duck with a complex against crafters?

    Meaning grouping becomes a lot more essential. Meaning you make friends. You create a community.

    Initially forming a group so a crafter(s) could obtain materials may work but eventually everyone would get very tired of it.  People have a tendency to want to do things when they want to do them and when they have to wait long periods of time on others they get a bit annoyed.

    Where as now you round around and do DEs and Fates and don't say a word to anyone else for the most part.

    Sorry... I do not know what a "DE" or a "Fate" is.  I do know people were complaining about "Fates" a day or so ago in which they said it made leveling very easy.

    Dungeons! DUNGEONS! 

    Imagine? The preparation. Meaning you would HAVE to join a guild. Or have friends. You would have to plan out which potions you would need in advance, the resistants you need (earth/wind/fire etc). prepartion creates community.

    I don't know about how you go about conducting or participating in a Raid or doing Group content but I make sure I have everything I think I need prior to doing the event.

    Most people join a Guild when playing on-line games and those that do not should not have to feel obligated to do so.  If people are "required" to join a Guild and they do not wish to join one then that is all the more incentive for them to just leave the game due to them not liking the restrictions placed on them.  There are plenty of other games out there that they can play.  Those people who do leave under those circumstances are little packets of money flying out of the Dev's pockets and they are hard to recapture.

    So, should I keep going? Or are you still too stupid to see the point of what this could do? JUST DELETE YOUR CHARACTER... what an idiotic answer bro. I said discuss here. Don't put peple down and say stupid shit.

     Perhaps I need to re-read my posts but I do not recall trying to put people down.  I was just making an observation.  But I find it odd that you would say something like: "Don't put peple down and say stupid shit.", when in the same sentence you call me "stupid" and call my solution to your little problem an "idiotic answer".  So far, I have really not seen anything you mentioned that would entice me to think about playing a game with Perma-death.  However, you are still free to do so if you so desire.

    Also - read my post. I said a server. Not a full out game like this. And i am POSITIVE 2000 people would want this. Remember how Everquest servers in 99' had 2k players and that was a full server? And there were plenty of groups everywhere. Plenty of trading. Community? Friends, family, guilds, community?

    As I mentioned above, a Developer may institute a Perma-death server and the initial population may be quite large for all I know but eventually people will stop playing once the shiny wears off and they get tired of recreating their character for the 100th time.

    Oh yeah.. so the server doesn't have to have 500k people. It's one server. Dedicated to hardcore. Just like EQ had PVP servers that were super low pop compared to PvE in the day.

    And what's the cost of adding one more server? I mean seriously. To make people happy and have a niche group playing for years - i think worth it.

    It is all about the "Benjamins", would a Developer want to create a new server that may be used by a few players or use that same new server to be used by a much larger user base?  I'm certain that most games will have all sorts of different types of servers associated with them but few if any will have a dedicated perma-death server.

    Have a nice day.

     

    Ratero.

  • ray12kray12k riverside, CAPosts: 447Member
    Originally posted by rojo6934

    there are not enough "hardcore" players that want perma death to maintain a perma deth-only server running. You know it will be an almost empty server and the company would feel its just a waste of money.

     

    In my personal opinion, If enough people demanded it and the company see they can benefit from it then they would add a separate server and set it to perma death.

     

    This is bullcrap.... minecraft with over 30 million sold copies has one of the most harsh death penalties out there... Problem with current mmorpgs is the carebears cry the loudest as the average pvp'r actually plays the game rather then giving i hate pvp speeches in game forums. 

     

    To be honest I dont see how anyone can play a non pvp game in my opinion its like playing a single game player with interactive ai's,

  • MendelMendel Marietta, GAPosts: 931Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by naZchoco

    So, should I keep going? Or are you still too stupid to see the point of what this could do? JUST DELETE YOUR CHARACTER... what an idiotic answer bro. I said discuss here. Don't put peple down and say stupid shit.

    Also - read my post. I said a server. Not a full out game like this. And i am POSITIVE 2000 people would want this. Remember how Everquest servers in 99' had 2k players and that was a full server? And there were plenty of groups everywhere. Plenty of trading. Community? Friends, family, guilds, community?

    Oh yeah.. so the server doesn't have to have 500k people. It's one server. Dedicated to hardcore. Just like EQ had PVP servers that were super low pop compared to PvE in the day.

    And what's the cost of adding one more server? I mean seriously. To make people happy and have a niche group playing for years - i think worth it.

    If you've got the data to support the highlighted items, hit up an MMO dev with it. You'd certainly have their attention.

    To append to Loktofeit's comments.

    I wouldn't call the perma-death crowd a niche group.   They'd be more akin to a niche group of the PvP and/or RP niche groups.  I think the size of this niche group is being vastly overestimated by the OP and NaZchoco.

    For every 1,000 people in the PvP or RP niche groups, there could easily only be 10 to 15 in a Permadeath niche group.  You might be talking about a population willing to pay an inflated niche commodity price of $100 a month to play such a game and even with a development cost of $2,000,000 and a steady population of 2000 (and ignoring ongoing operational costs), a company would require 10 months to earn back the initial investment.

    I would expect that achieving a steady population would be incredibly difficult.   The frustration factor from dieing alone would drive away a large number of customers.   A permadeath game might start with 2000 players, but I would expect it would quickly dwindle to a small fraction of that base, perhaps 100 to 200 people.  So instead of a 10 month ROI, the company might be looking at a 100 month ROI.  An MMORPG developer with that kind of fiscal performance would find the doors closed in a great hurry.

    There is one common thing MMORPG developers do well.  They hire accountants.  A moderately competent accountant would kill such a project before it ever got off the ground.

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • RobokappRobokapp Dublin, OHPosts: 5,206Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Rhonen
    Originally posted by naZchoco

    Preface: Me and a buddy who have played/beta tested almost every MMO since 99' were just talking in mumble.

     

    Question: Why has no game released a perma death server for us hard-core players? 

    Answer:  If you want perma-death so much... just delete your character each and every time your character dies.

    Problem solved.

     

    Ratero.

    would your enemies behave as if its a perma-death server ?

     

    you do realise the excitement of playing on a perma-death realm comes from interactions with others, yes ?

     

    while alive, yes ?

    image

  • BetaguyBetaguy Halifax, NSPosts: 2,590Member
    WoW is releasing a hardcore permadeath server?

    image

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,680Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by ray12k
    Originally posted by rojo6934

    there are not enough "hardcore" players that want perma death to maintain a perma deth-only server running. You know it will be an almost empty server and the company would feel its just a waste of money.

    In my personal opinion, If enough people demanded it and the company see they can benefit from it then they would add a separate server and set it to perma death.

    This is bullcrap.... minecraft with over 30 million sold copies has one of the most harsh death penalties out there... Problem with current mmorpgs is the carebears cry the loudest as the average pvp'r actually plays the game rather then giving i hate pvp speeches in game forums. 

    To be honest I dont see how anyone can play a non pvp game in my opinion its like playing a single game player with interactive ai's,

    Minecraft servers are in a controlled environment often with a heavy hand to deal with people that don't follow the pack. They can do that because no revenue is riding on the line.

    Each Minecraft server has its own rules and mods. As a result, the most one can actually quantify is that 5-300 people like any one particular ruleset. A user base of 5-300 isn't a compelling number for someone looking to create a multimillion dollar sub-based MMO. 

     

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • STYNKFYSTSTYNKFYST Sacramento, CAPosts: 290Member

    You lost me @ carebears

    Try not to use such asshat terms if you are trying to make a point. Just makes you seem superficial.

  • STYNKFYSTSTYNKFYST Sacramento, CAPosts: 290Member
    Originally posted by ray12k
    Originally posted by rojo6934

    there are not enough "hardcore" players that want perma death to maintain a perma deth-only server running. You know it will be an almost empty server and the company would feel its just a waste of money.

     

    In my personal opinion, If enough people demanded it and the company see they can benefit from it then they would add a separate server and set it to perma death.

     

    This is bullcrap.... minecraft with over 30 million sold copies has one of the most harsh death penalties out there... Problem with current mmorpgs is the carebears cry the loudest as the average pvp'r actually plays the game rather then giving i hate pvp speeches in game forums. 

     

    To be honest I dont see how anyone can play a non pvp game in my opinion its like playing a single game player with interactive ai's,

    PvPers cry the loudest. There's PvP in most MMOs...so are you talking about SP games being so SP like? Or is it you have an opinion on what games "truly have PvP"? Sounds like you should stick to CoD or Counterstrike to me.

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