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So..perma death MMO servers
naZchoco
Member Posts: 82
Preface: Me and a buddy who have played/beta tested almost every MMO since 99' were just talking in mumble.
Question: Why has no game released a perma death server for us hard-core players?
Opinion: I understand some games (most) are hurting for subscribers and it would be desolate. But a game like SWTOR when it first came out, or WoW (even now) releasing one, or any of the big titles like FFXIV.
You're going to get tons of publicity - which would usher in carebears to the softcore severs just by hearing about your game, and you would get tons of us hardcore players at least giving your game a shot if we hear you did it right.
We're basically talking the perfect hardcore players dream game..but with existing games that we all whine about. These games already have full foundations, most of them are great games in their own ways, but they just failed miserably with content and easy mode.
All you have to do is turn on an insta-death switch.
Now think a little bit harder about what this means...
All crafting is finally meaningful and therefore the auction houses are all constantly cycled, no stale moments. You constanlty have herbs and ore and cloth being farmed for potions, gems for sockets, armor. And you wouldn't be to hasty to level this up as they require you to go to dangerous places where normally you don't mind because you face rolled the content and geared out and then went back to these places fully equipped and got what you needed.
You would spend a full week on some dungeons just preparing.
Raids would be the most incredible things every encountered because every single moment and potion and movement and preperation strategy counted.
You would form endless bounds with people like we did back in EQ because you would NEED groups, you would NEED communication, you would NEED partners in crafting. COMMUNITY.
PvP is another story - like I said we just started this discussion in mumble and haven't elaborated too much...
What do you guys think?
This isn't a flame thread. This is more of a well this WOULDN'T work , and this WOULD. Share your opinoins. Get this ball rolling. Who knows - if a developer is smart he is watchign these forums like a hawk. And this could spark some interest.
The closest thing we have right now is EQ which is my favorite MMO of all time - but outdated. And it's not permadeath it's just corpse runs.
EvE is close. You lose your ship and such. Cargo bays.. etc. But PvE you get your stuff back. But for the most part you contain your clones and such.
Darkfall - just open loot.
We were just imaging a vanilla WoW server released like this. A SWTOR server like this. A FFXIV server such as this.
Our favorite part was talking about Age of Wushu and this idea. Phew. That would be insane lol. So i guess we touched on PvP :P
I just think it would be a great idea for new games releasing to incorporate. It wouldn't touch you care bears. And us hard core players would be all for trying it. And it's one server. It's not like if it fails the game fails - they would probably just leave the niche players there and let them be.
Comments
I would mess around on a perma-death server from time to time, probably would not main there though, too much stress to main there and play regularly to experience the full game lol.
There should be perma-death, or hardcore death penalty play options on normal servers in instances, let people gamble the death penalty for better rewards imo. I would risk permadeath or a set amount of "lives" in certain PVE instances with a solid group of guildees and friends for the chance of getting legendary stuff.
I would even love to see a highlander like server lol, everyone gets 1 life on the server with the goal of killing other players to harvest their powers. There can be only one! So the winner must be last man standing to receive an amazing reward, and can only get the reward be being the last one, if not server resets in time and starts a new open world "tournament"
Basically like your point, there needs to be some more experimentation with rulesets and variety, especially from games with one foot in the grave.
there are not enough "hardcore" players that want perma death to maintain a perma deth-only server running. You know it will be an almost empty server and the company would feel its just a waste of money.
In my personal opinion, If enough people demanded it and the company see they can benefit from it then they would add a separate server and set it to perma death.
Answer: Because there is no profit in it.
Answer: If you want perma-death so much... just delete your character each and every time your character dies.
Problem solved.
Ratero.
Isn't there that DayZ mod or something?
Meh, here is the same thing I say every time this pops up.
You can't have serious "perma-death" until you can GUARENTEE connection. When I was playing DF:UW someone in the neighborhood was maybe stealing service, or who knows what, but for 2 weeks my net would drop 2-3 times a day. Cable company came, gave me a new router, all the jazz. Finally told me that there was static coming from somewhere within 2 blocks. No, they weren't intending to dig up all the line to find it. So yeah, bring on the "perma-death". Just fix that first, since the number 1 ticket support will receive on that server, is "connection lost, can I has character back?"
My coppers
EQ1 had a permadeath server back in the day. At first was a bit ppopular then it died down. I also think the MMO version of PC hit Wozardry also had permadeath.
edit Discord was he name of the server was PVP and permadeath. mages were king
Deleting your character on death would be perma-death but its so one dimensional compared to the idea of risk vs reward...its all risk and no reward only inconvenience.
They should just add a player set death penalty slider in games, wanna have nothing more than repair cost on death like the standard? Set it to zero! Want to suffer the pain of loss when your character breathes their last breathe because you didnt block, dodge, roll out of an attack? Set it to maximum.
When at 0 you get 0 bonus to loot and no stat bonus
When you set to max you get double or more bonus to loot drops and a minor or even major bonus to stats to make it worthwhile.
Cannot change the slider while in combat, and bam you have yourself a new form of hardcore magic find anywhere in the world lol
Spoken like someone who has no concept of the appeal of permadeath servers! Congrats!
Let me help you out a little with a short explanation of how the multiplayer permadeath server philosophy works. However, it's still up to you to put the pieces together and figure it out. Good luck!
So in a regular MMO where death has little meaning, people play out their characters with no fear for the consequences of their actions. Other player's deaths and their own deaths are meaningless. Your average player is fine with this, since they are just playing the game casually and having to walk back to their corpse can seem like a real pain in the butt. The fact you need to spend a minute or two to walk to your corpse in Warcraft can feel like punishment enough. The shame of dying in a group of players is sometimes punishment enough even if you get rezzed ten seconds after being killed. For a lot of players, this kind of death has enough punishment, and most of those players are happy with this kind of death penalty.
And then you have players who imagine playing in a world where death has consequence, both for yourself and for other players. It's the kind of world where players are more cautious when running into each other in a PvP environment, and more cautious about preparing for group battles even in PvE. Players take hidden paths to move from place to place when they're unsure of what they might meet, and even players looking to grief other players in pvp tend to be more conservative when ganking weak-seeming targets, because they know they might get lured into a trap and be potentially ambushed and killed by unseen hunter players.
So you see, playing in a normal server and erasing your character when you die does not achieve the desired effect, but thanks for trying to solve the problem with an arrogant dismissal.
And here we go again... you can "imagine" all you like; so in your "own private Idaho", on death, you can delete your characters to your hearts content and "Imagine" that I'm doing the same. However, I won't be doing so since I prefer not to "imagine" playing in a perma-death game and thus I will not be deleting my character.
I love it when people say stuff like "Spoken like someone who has no concept of the appeal of permadeath servers!" like it takes a mental Giant to understand the concept of the UNappealing nature of permadeath games. However, if you find it so appealing to play "hard core" perma-death games then load one up and play, or you can delete your characters on a normal server. Now everyone is happy.
From your posts, I think you'r trying to convince yourself on how great it is rather than convincing someone like me who would rather not play such a game.
There are very few perma-death games out there... very few. I wonder why that could be?
Ratero.
^ This.
Question: Why has no game released a perma death server for us hard-core players?
http://www.wizardrythegame.com
All you have to do is turn on an insta-death switch.
...and support a separate branch of code, as it's more than just tripping a flag. It's also managing the other mechanics that would be unbalanced, broken or simply vestigial if left unchanged on the permadeath server.
A dev now has to weigh the expense of maintaining the separate branch and cost of supporting the separate server against the return from it all.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Permadeath creates order is basically what is being said, Which i do agree with. I am a ex-Face of Mankind player, and in the situation where you have no clones left and there are people out to take you down. it creates a feeling unlike any other game puts out. Also the idea of Perma death in the beginning kept alot of people from just running around shooting everything that moves. cause at that point it only takes a moment of "was that 2 clones left or 1" and suddenly Poof. all the credits, gear, rank.. everything gone.
This however changed after the milestone patch people realized how easy it was to keep your clones organized. Thus more people wanted to turn the game into a 24-7 DeathMatch.
Permadeath is good. Simply Deleting your character after each death doesnt change how people play. However having perma death forcfully remove your character changes the eviroment around you.
Because i can.
I'm Hopeful For Every Game, Until the Fan Boys Attack My Games. Then the Knives Come Out.
Logic every gamers worst enemy.
Ratero.
Do you understand it's much more than the death? Because You do not have any concept of the appeal of permadeath if you are saying go delete your character once you die.
It's called a monopoly effect.
Once you implement server perma death - you create a community.
Crafting gets more valuable. Which means materials get more valuable. Which means trading becomes MUCH MORE ESSENTIAL to the game. You may even barter with a guy you see gathering certain herbs and make a deal and talk to him every day at the same time. Creating a friendship. (Just an example).
You would sell your crafts which would be more valuable. People would see people wearing your armor. You would make a name for yourself and gain a list of pepole who would buy/sell to you.
With perma-death mobs become more dangerous. As do areas.
Meaning grouping becomes a lot more essential. Meaning you make friends. You create a community.
Where as now you round around and do DEs and Fates and don't say a word to anyone else for the most part.
Dungeons! DUNGEONS!
Imagine? The preparation. Meaning you would HAVE to join a guild. Or have friends. You would have to plan out which potions you would need in advance, the resistants you need (earth/wind/fire etc). prepartion creates community.
So, should I keep going? Or are you still too stupid to see the point of what this could do? JUST DELETE YOUR CHARACTER... what an idiotic answer bro. I said discuss here. Don't put peple down and say stupid shit.
Also - read my post. I said a server. Not a full out game like this. And i am POSITIVE 2000 people would want this. Remember how Everquest servers in 99' had 2k players and that was a full server? And there were plenty of groups everywhere. Plenty of trading. Community? Friends, family, guilds, community?
Oh yeah.. so the server doesn't have to have 500k people. It's one server. Dedicated to hardcore. Just like EQ had PVP servers that were super low pop compared to PvE in the day.
And what's the cost of adding one more server? I mean seriously. To make people happy and have a niche group playing for years - i think worth it.
If you've got the data to support the highlighted items, hit up an MMO dev with it. You'd certainly have their attention.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Have a nice day.
Ratero.
This is bullcrap.... minecraft with over 30 million sold copies has one of the most harsh death penalties out there... Problem with current mmorpgs is the carebears cry the loudest as the average pvp'r actually plays the game rather then giving i hate pvp speeches in game forums.
To be honest I dont see how anyone can play a non pvp game in my opinion its like playing a single game player with interactive ai's,
To append to Loktofeit's comments.
I wouldn't call the perma-death crowd a niche group. They'd be more akin to a niche group of the PvP and/or RP niche groups. I think the size of this niche group is being vastly overestimated by the OP and NaZchoco.
For every 1,000 people in the PvP or RP niche groups, there could easily only be 10 to 15 in a Permadeath niche group. You might be talking about a population willing to pay an inflated niche commodity price of $100 a month to play such a game and even with a development cost of $2,000,000 and a steady population of 2000 (and ignoring ongoing operational costs), a company would require 10 months to earn back the initial investment.
I would expect that achieving a steady population would be incredibly difficult. The frustration factor from dieing alone would drive away a large number of customers. A permadeath game might start with 2000 players, but I would expect it would quickly dwindle to a small fraction of that base, perhaps 100 to 200 people. So instead of a 10 month ROI, the company might be looking at a 100 month ROI. An MMORPG developer with that kind of fiscal performance would find the doors closed in a great hurry.
There is one common thing MMORPG developers do well. They hire accountants. A moderately competent accountant would kill such a project before it ever got off the ground.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Minecraft servers are in a controlled environment often with a heavy hand to deal with people that don't follow the pack. They can do that because no revenue is riding on the line.
Each Minecraft server has its own rules and mods. As a result, the most one can actually quantify is that 5-300 people like any one particular ruleset. A user base of 5-300 isn't a compelling number for someone looking to create a multimillion dollar sub-based MMO.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
You lost me @ carebears
Try not to use such asshat terms if you are trying to make a point. Just makes you seem superficial.
PvPers cry the loudest. There's PvP in most MMOs...so are you talking about SP games being so SP like? Or is it you have an opinion on what games "truly have PvP"? Sounds like you should stick to CoD or Counterstrike to me.
This would be fun if I were unemployed and got to live with my mom - at 43 this might be unreasonable. Perhaps you were aiming for a <18 age group? But even school can really slow gaming down.
Would be fun though - I admit. I would love to see if people would take PVP more seriously and how that might return these hopping silly pvp battleground type players to a Dark Age of Camelot model where team is everything.