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Why did MMOs become about the money and numbers?
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The MMOs being complained about here are regular MMOs, which are reasonably profitable. Players are apparently criticizing them for trying to make money, implying they should make less money, and no longer be profitable.
So as I said, the players here are essentially saying, "starve for me, artists!"
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I'm pretty sure it was always about the money, we were just a little more naive back then.
I don't think so, corporate giants had not eaten up every last MMO and cherry picked every small gaming company by the late 90's, early 00's. This has always been happening of course, it did not suddenly start, but I think there was a tipping point which started as we moved into the 00's and became more apparent with each passing year. New small gaming companies still emerge but far fewer than back then, the start up costs are just too prohibitive now. We do have a lot of new indie companies emerging but they are producing games which are seriously graphically behind the giants.
The days are gone when 2 guys can create one of the most advanced graphical games for the times (Elite). Many of the old entrepreneurs who produced MMO's in particular were gaming enthusiasts. Today it seems that when you are looking for a new CEO your first port of call is big corporate companies. Not former game producers or designers, not even executives working in the entertainment industry. Pepsi Cola is deemed a better source of executives for the gaming industry than those in the entertainment industry.
Today it is all about the money.
Never fear, your dream MMO will be here....
just give me a decade or two to finely hone my Game development
and design abilities as well as start a Game Design Studio.
Thank you for your patience.
Never fear, your dream MMO will be here....
just give me a decade or two to finely hone my Game development
and design abilities as well as start a Game Design Studio.
Thank you for your patience.
Never fear, your dream MMO will be here....
just give me a decade or two to finely hone my Game development
and design abilities as well as start a Game Design Studio.
Thank you for your patience.
Because development companies turned into corporations and publishers and at the end of the day what matters is the bottom line. This applies to more than just MMO's or gaming in general however.
We could sit here and blame developers and their publishers all day but at the end of the day it is the people who support these games that are the cause of the problem. If the masses buy into a game and subscribe, the company makes money and they are incentivised to continue making more games that don't have any love, vision or passion behind them.
But it's hard to derail the masses from buying something that has been built from the ground up to appeal to them and leech of their wallets rather than go after a project that tries to provide quality or just be different.
At least there are a few main stream games that are trying to be different and do their own thing now to a degree, but the vast majority of MMO's out there still feel like they were made with the exact same cookie cutter. Makes it hard to care about them really.
Kingdom of Knights - Community Manager
No, because it is ridiculous. How are they getting money if they aren't making MMOs that people feel are good enough to pay for?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Yet, you post something so incredibly naive...or just flawed at best.
It was ALWAYS about the money, just now there are larger sums in play because of production costs.
And why the hell would anyone want a game designer for CEO of +200 employee company?!
Games are produced by same enthusiasts as always, you are just wearing epic rose tinted glasses of nostalgy. Back then, most of the games were crap as so is today.
Would you care to provide an example of developers lying to customers? Being swayed by hype and being lied to are two entirely different things.
A lot of companies make their money off of gamers who buy a game based just on hype because they want to be one of the first people to play it right away, and then said game ends up disappointing. But this is something that could be easily avoided if people were more patient and waited for games to be released and thoroughly reviewed before buying them, or if gamers were just easier to please in general.
People enjoying a game and find it worth their money is a problem? People liking something else than you do is a problem?
No, that isn't a problem of anyone else but you, and with all respect, no one cares.
Well, those statements are true. The core MMORPG crowd, by and large, never went over to WoW. WoW found its market with the casual gamers and RTS players who liked Blizzard lore. They were the first big name game company to make an MMO, and the first one to support it with a 1 year long multi million dollar ad campaign. When they announced beta it was in every website and magazine available at the time. They were the first to hit true mainstream, and their momentum has kept them going ever since, with very little to do with the actual game mechanics, which are objectively poor.
Naw. The core MMORPG crowd jumped to wow too.
EA's SimCity? Goggle 'EA SimCity Lies'
That should help you out.
"Back then, most of the games were crap as so is today." If I read this right, you are wrong. Most games ten to twenty years ago were not crap. I am not sure you could say they are today. But there is a far higher volume of games being released today partly because players are more open to international markets and the advent of indie games. So it is far harder with such a large volume for me to confidently say you are wrong.
As to my point about how gaming background is important for CEO's, here is a table from a study showing the main areas of experience of Japanese gaming CEO's. Each CEO picked their three main areas. The link is below.
Table 21: CEO main areas of experience Share of CEO with significant experience from the area (%)
Production (e.g. game producer) 63.4
Design and Story (e.g. game designer) 43.7
Animation 0
Creative direction 40.8
Technology and programming (e.g. lead programmer, technical director). 21.1
Financial and administrative services 18.3
Marketing and sales 35.2
Human resources 8.5
http://www.gdconf.com/news/2012/02/16/Survey/Survey%20Report%20February%202012.pdf
As you can see gaming background is still seen as more important than business background. My argument is that over the past twenty years the importance of gaming background has been denigrated. It is still seen as important but a big business background can be a trump card. Maybe the Japanese are still getting it right and the West has gone of course? Also, I am cognisant that the study I showed depended on the answers of CEO's, who may well have massaged them a bit.
Unfortunately, data like you see in that link is rare, doing a comparative study going back twenty years is not easy.
Sure they were(crap being a market/business success, not some silly arbitrary personally biased qualifiers).
Only thing that has changed is that the market is much bigger these days thus you subjectively feel there is less good games while in fact, the choice is just broader - there is a number of good games that are not your cup of tea.
And then...
First you complain that Pepsi Cola is perceived as better source of executives, now you argue that it isn't a case?
You just twist and misuse facts to fit your already made up, invalid tho, conclusions.
Sorry, it's time to deal with reality.
Naw. The core MMORPG crowd jumped to wow too.
It's not like that was a big deal. The "core" MMORPG crowd was a tiny part of the market.
But really, when people are talking about the "core" MMORPG crowd, who are they talking about? Are they just talking about the people who played UO? What about EQ? Wouldn't the core crowd be the people who play MMORPGs, regardless of which ones they are? For instance, the "core" crowd would be someone who came into the genre when WoW released, but right now they are playing The Secret World, Rift or FF. They haven't stopped playing MMORPGs, they're just not playing the MMORPG that they started with, or one of the MMORPGs that kicked things off way back when.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Exactly. Thats why when ever anyone makes such a rediculous game like, Real MMogamers, or the core gamers or even, most gamers from back then, I feel the imperative to make the reverse argument with just as much back up
Well I am not even sure now of what you were getting at with the remark about crap games. My own position is that there are good games out there, too many brands, but still good games. Sometimes they don't make them like they used to, sometimes they make them far better.
I do think the gaming industry has fallen prey to the idea that a big executive name is more important than gaming industry experience, how do you think Riccitiello got to be CEO of EA? No design experience whatsoever and they put him in charge? This has been a feature of the gaming industry in the 00's.
Indeed, that study I put up showed a healthy number of CEO's with what I would consider the right kind of background. My argument is not that every CEO is now a suit, just that is the way its heading. But yes, if you had asked me to forecast that study I would have not thought things were as good as they seem to be. Good to see that they are not.
Have you some how missed the increasing corporate attitude of gaming companies, the priority of branding and so on? To deny that gaming companies have become more corporate is rather hard to do. And part of that process is putting executives in charge.
Nothing is falling, it is an inevitable consequence of increased production costs, the companies grew bigger, hence you need skilled executives who can run mid/large size company. There is no harm there.
Your arguments are inconsistent and contradictory.
First you say that MMO market is somewhat getting eaten up by corporations and that it "hurts" games at the end. You demonstrate with comment above and how CEOs are no longer "gamers" but suits - which you happen to provide evidence that is supposedly to claim otherwise.
In the same breath you say that all is fine, big-small, good-bad, all sort of games are being produced as ever. So where is the harm you speak of?
Note: That study is worthless piece of internetz. The response rate of the "survey" is 25%, basically it has same value as polls on these boards.
25% is not bad in my estimation, we don't exactly hear CEO's talking about these sort of issues all the time. Next time I will remember to only link anything that absolutely supports my view as we clearly need to think in just black and white here.
The harm is coming from the brands and the non gaming ethos that has taken over gaming studios. That is not to say they cannot produce a good game, let me give you a couple of examples. Dragon Age, great game; DA2, appalling milk it for all it is worth sequel. The milking of the Mass Effect series.
The harm is also more obvious to spot after a gaming company is bought out by a larger company like what happened to Turbine. Lotro before and after they were bought out by Times-Warner shows what happens when the corporate mentality takes priority over making a fine game.
Of course great games are still being made, you are trying to foster an opinion on me I do not have.
You talk about the "inevitable" consequences of gaming companies getting larger, there is some truth here. I am sorry but I am not going to paint this issue black and white, it is more complex than that. Many early gaming companies promoted from within their ranks, they gave those without much business experience senior executive positions. Now some claim that was why many folded and there is some truth there, but many were going to fold anyway, that's the sort of market gaming was and still is. You still see those with a developer background being promoted into the most senior positions and I presume doing fine as they stay there. So the issue is not that clear cut, but I lean on the side that this eventually caused more problems than it solved. What is more clear cut is the effect corporate mentality has on the gaming ethos of the company.
When it comes to how a business ethos takes over a gaming ethos, then you have to look no further than the bragging of Riccitiello once he got into EA. He was crowing about how he had designers thinking of cost first. Now of course a gaming company must think of cost, but that's an executives job, to reign in creation and design when they go too far. The creative team should not be counting pennies before something gets to the white board.
The branding of games, the big titles which get a new one in the series every year is another example of how corporate ethos comes before gaming ethos. You have a cash cow and you milk it. But how much space does that leave for anything that is not a brand name getting a chance? This has created a narrowing of opportunity for anything new coming out. When a takeover occurs a few titles are cheery picked and the rest go to the wind. Oh and some of those brand games are among my favs, mostly big funding has meant a better game. But some are rather creaky and showing their seams, big funding is not a guaranteed success.
I am not saying that a gaming company should not act and think as a company, business ethos is important. But just like any company, once you always put business ethos before a creative and quality ethos, there will be problems ahead. Simcity anyone?
Some did, most didn't. Sub charts back that up. The big dips in population for games like DAoC didn't happen until Trials of Atlantis and New Frontiers/Catacombs. Or SWG's NGE. WoW was mocked by the core MMO crowd, by and large.