Amana we didnt brak any NDA.. everything I posted was what I saw from the Wildstar team via Facebook. They have posted up two sets at least of beta patch notes. Please restore our posts.
Which means nothing. Best gear in game is achieved through hardcore raiding...PERIOD. And Carbine is not keeping it a secret. Your comment isn't even hyperbole but outright false.
And when the game opens up, and no one has any raid gear, who will be the 1st ones to get it?
The ones who got teh best that could be gotten by getting a leg up and a head start afforded by CREDD. And once they get their raid gear, who will be the one who have all the coveted progression raid slots? (Hint: see above answer)
And those who don't do progression raiding...the casuals will throw the same "It's not fair" temper tantrums they throw in every game with this kind of progression so you know they'll be screaming "P2W"
GW2 offers the ability to buy gems. I can convert that into gold. Take a brand new LVL1 toon and buy all the crafting mats with the gold and start crafting. From 1-400 in the 1st craft gets me 10 levels. Hey, good thing there are 8 crafts. I can go from 1...OK 2 or 3 depending. to 80 doing nothing but crafting off the gold I purchased. So I can in fact buy a level capped toon in GW2 with real money. OK, from there, I can also equip it with full exotics...even a legendary if I were so motivated. I cannot get full ascended gear. Why isn't that P2W? Because in GW2, there isn't really a vertical progression. But you can believe in any other MMORPG, that would be considered P2W. Hell, it was only a couple months ago everyone was screaming P2W at Rift for offering inferior gear in shop. And it was a long thread with lots of arguments back and forth. So, I guess it must really be subjective. But sorry, in Wildstar, this will be an advantage from the beginning so it's P2W.
Also, GW2 has no economy. nothing in the game has any value unless it's associated with precursors. There is no reason to craft, there is no real market trading done by players. All these meta-games are destroyed by Gems. Let's not even go into the RNG mechanics of the game.
So I guess, it's possible that WS could be like GW2 and not be P2W, but then you can bet it will be a shallow MMO with a vertical progression where if you aren't in combat, you aren't doing anything worthwhile.
When did WoW open a sanctioned gold market? I know I've been out of it for a while, but I didn't think they opened a full fledged cash shop or gold market
But to answer your question. How much P2W. Well, the less P2W Wildstar gets, the less meta-game it will have since it's currency will need to be devalued in order to not be P2W. But that's a different argument.
I like what I see so far so I would play it regardless of the Business Model, that would go for any new in development game. I am not sure that the Business model would matter to me. IMO.
Which means nothing. Best gear in game is achieved through hardcore raiding...PERIOD. And Carbine is not keeping it a secret. Your comment isn't even hyperbole but outright false.
And when the game opens up, and no one has any raid gear, who will be the 1st ones to get it?
The ones who got teh best that could be gotten by getting a leg up and a head start afforded by CREDD. And once they get their raid gear, who will be the one who have all the coveted progression raid slots? (Hint: see above answer)
And those who don't do progression raiding...the casuals will throw the same "It's not fair" temper tantrums they throw in every game with this kind of progression so you know they'll be screaming "P2W"
GW2 offers the ability to buy gems. I can convert that into gold. Take a brand new LVL1 toon and buy all the crafting mats with the gold and start crafting. From 1-400 in the 1st craft gets me 10 levels. Hey, good thing there are 8 crafts. I can go from 1...OK 2 or 3 depending. to 80 doing nothing but crafting off the gold I purchased. So I can in fact buy a level capped toon in GW2 with real money. OK, from there, I can also equip it with full exotics...even a legendary if I were so motivated. I cannot get full ascended gear. Why isn't that P2W? Because in GW2, there isn't really a vertical progression. But you can believe in any other MMORPG, that would be considered P2W. Hell, it was only a couple months ago everyone was screaming P2W at Rift for offering inferior gear in shop. And it was a long thread with lots of arguments back and forth. So, I guess it must really be subjective. But sorry, in Wildstar, this will be an advantage from the beginning so it's P2W.
Also, GW2 has no economy. nothing in the game has any value unless it's associated with precursors. There is no reason to craft, there is no real market trading done by players. All these meta-games are destroyed by Gems. Let's not even go into the RNG mechanics of the game.
So I guess, it's possible that WS could be like GW2 and not be P2W, but then you can bet it will be a shallow MMO with a vertical progression where if you aren't in combat, you aren't doing anything worthwhile.
When did WoW open a sanctioned gold market? I know I've been out of it for a while, but I didn't think they opened a full fledged cash shop or gold market
But to answer your question. How much P2W. Well, the less P2W Wildstar gets, the less meta-game it will have since it's currency will need to be devalued in order to not be P2W. But that's a different argument.
When the game 1st starts up there won't even be decent greens on the AH.
Besides, getting a leg up doesn't do you any good if you can't maintain pace.
Sanctioning gold selling or not is splitting hairs. Regardless, whether CREDD existed or not gold will be for sell on 3rd party sites.
There is no evidence this game is anymore P2W, then World of Warcraft is.
If you don't pay you lose because you aren't playing!
That isn't pay to win derp.
The game has a vertical progression with a channel to fund game currency with real cash.
P2W
Which means nothing. Best gear in game is achieved through hardcore raiding...PERIOD. And Carbine is not keeping it a secret. Your comment isn't even hyperbole but outright false.
What if you can call someone into the zone and trade the gear out of the box? EQ2 does this today and honestly I think it's on the fence P2W. The prices of gear in chat channel auctions can be insane when you get a couple whales who are willing to buy Krono's for real money to sell for plat going against each other. It's great when your a raider in a guild selling something and get a 5 figure plat split between 24 people it sucks when your trying to buy.
I think if they are going to do this if you are not in zone when the mob dies you can't loot anything out of the chest. That goes for both raid and small group content. But even than I remember selling spots in raids of "easy" content for our guild to people looking to get epic updates.
There is no evidence this game is anymore P2W, then World of Warcraft is.
If you don't pay you lose because you aren't playing!
That isn't pay to win derp.
The game has a vertical progression with a channel to fund game currency with real cash.
P2W
Which means nothing. Best gear in game is achieved through hardcore raiding...PERIOD. And Carbine is not keeping it a secret. Your comment isn't even hyperbole but outright false.
What if you can call someone into the zone and trade the gear out of the box? EQ2 does this today and honestly I think it's on the fence P2W. The prices of gear in chat channel auctions can be insane when you get a couple whales who are willing to buy Krono's for real money to sell for plat going against each other. It's great when your a raider in a guild selling something and get a 5 figure plat split between 24 people it sucks when your trying to buy.
I think if they are going to do this if you are not in zone when the mob dies you can't loot anything out of the chest. That goes for both raid and small group content. But even than I remember selling spots in raids of "easy" content for our guild to people looking to get epic updates.
Anarchy Online does this. Boss mobs do not "rot" for 30 min. During that time, they can invite anyone to join the raid. That person can loot the item. Even if he was not part of the kill or in the zone. Doesn't matter. The team can port anyone into the raid and anyone can loot any item. NODROP (soulbound) or not. This created a market for NODROP items. Any item in the game can be bought through "Services" When Anarchy implemented a Cash Shop they were very adamant about not selling "power" but they sold PVP tokens, and Mission Tokens that would and other items that were tradeable. So what did it matter that they didn't sell power outright? They sold methods to convert real money to currency. That made the game P2W overnight.
Anyone who doesn't think trading real money in an MMO isn't either P2W or in some other way isn't undermining the game itself, is fooling themselves. While I would not try to argue that GW2 is P2W, crafting and market trading was ruined by gold selling.
And Gold farming happens in all games. But the difference is how the developers at least try to handle it instead of making easier.
And the scale is much much smaller in other games. Many players who would buy in a game like GW2, didn't in WoW because it wasn't worth the risk of getting banned or hacked.
Short term? Yes. Long term? I highly doubt it, but I would love to be surprised. I wrote this up a couple of weeks ago on the current state of the P2P business model in the MMO landscape encompassing all subgenres minus FPS. There are only 7 games released prior to 2005 that still use the P2P business model exclusively; only 4 games released post 2006 that use P2P as their only source of revenue. Two of those are newcomers; one has been in maintenance mode for over two years now, leaving one game... in a period of 7 years.
What is the longevity of these games that choose to use the P2P model before converting? The last couple of years have shown that the current trend of making the transition to F2P is around the 6-12 month mark; nothing long term there if you ask me. Most either go F2P, F2P and P2W, and a few unfortunate ventures end up shutting down.
If I had to choose between Wildstar and ESO on who would last longer, I'd say Wildstar hands down. I just hope it can last at least a year (or more) before making the transition.
I play a f2p game with a cash shop right now. I can can tell you that in the first 6 months I have dropped down more money then probably I would spend in a whole year of a P2P game. Now I know that is on me, but that is probably the number 1 reason why I want to go back to a sub system.
The number 2 reason and probably almost as important as number one. Is that when you buy items from a cash shop you are stuck with that item for life. Even when they nerf it... And in the game I play now (Planetside 2 by SOE...) a weapon you purchase more then likely seems to get nerfed... So I am left with a average or below average gun that I spent 5 or more dollars on... That's not a good feeling.
------------------------------ You see, every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with their surrounding environment, but you humans do not. You spread to an area, and you multiply, and you multiply, until every natural resource is consumed. The only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet.-Mr.Smith
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And when the game opens up, and no one has any raid gear, who will be the 1st ones to get it?
The ones who got teh best that could be gotten by getting a leg up and a head start afforded by CREDD. And once they get their raid gear, who will be the one who have all the coveted progression raid slots? (Hint: see above answer)
And those who don't do progression raiding...the casuals will throw the same "It's not fair" temper tantrums they throw in every game with this kind of progression so you know they'll be screaming "P2W"
@Ariboresma:
GW2 offers the ability to buy gems. I can convert that into gold. Take a brand new LVL1 toon and buy all the crafting mats with the gold and start crafting. From 1-400 in the 1st craft gets me 10 levels. Hey, good thing there are 8 crafts. I can go from 1...OK 2 or 3 depending. to 80 doing nothing but crafting off the gold I purchased. So I can in fact buy a level capped toon in GW2 with real money. OK, from there, I can also equip it with full exotics...even a legendary if I were so motivated. I cannot get full ascended gear. Why isn't that P2W? Because in GW2, there isn't really a vertical progression. But you can believe in any other MMORPG, that would be considered P2W. Hell, it was only a couple months ago everyone was screaming P2W at Rift for offering inferior gear in shop. And it was a long thread with lots of arguments back and forth. So, I guess it must really be subjective. But sorry, in Wildstar, this will be an advantage from the beginning so it's P2W.
Also, GW2 has no economy. nothing in the game has any value unless it's associated with precursors. There is no reason to craft, there is no real market trading done by players. All these meta-games are destroyed by Gems. Let's not even go into the RNG mechanics of the game.
So I guess, it's possible that WS could be like GW2 and not be P2W, but then you can bet it will be a shallow MMO with a vertical progression where if you aren't in combat, you aren't doing anything worthwhile.
@JJ69:
When did WoW open a sanctioned gold market? I know I've been out of it for a while, but I didn't think they opened a full fledged cash shop or gold market
But to answer your question. How much P2W. Well, the less P2W Wildstar gets, the less meta-game it will have since it's currency will need to be devalued in order to not be P2W. But that's a different argument.
When the game 1st starts up there won't even be decent greens on the AH.
Besides, getting a leg up doesn't do you any good if you can't maintain pace.
Sanctioning gold selling or not is splitting hairs. Regardless, whether CREDD existed or not gold will be for sell on 3rd party sites.
What if you can call someone into the zone and trade the gear out of the box? EQ2 does this today and honestly I think it's on the fence P2W. The prices of gear in chat channel auctions can be insane when you get a couple whales who are willing to buy Krono's for real money to sell for plat going against each other. It's great when your a raider in a guild selling something and get a 5 figure plat split between 24 people it sucks when your trying to buy.
I think if they are going to do this if you are not in zone when the mob dies you can't loot anything out of the chest. That goes for both raid and small group content. But even than I remember selling spots in raids of "easy" content for our guild to people looking to get epic updates.
Anarchy Online does this. Boss mobs do not "rot" for 30 min. During that time, they can invite anyone to join the raid. That person can loot the item. Even if he was not part of the kill or in the zone. Doesn't matter. The team can port anyone into the raid and anyone can loot any item. NODROP (soulbound) or not. This created a market for NODROP items. Any item in the game can be bought through "Services" When Anarchy implemented a Cash Shop they were very adamant about not selling "power" but they sold PVP tokens, and Mission Tokens that would and other items that were tradeable. So what did it matter that they didn't sell power outright? They sold methods to convert real money to currency. That made the game P2W overnight.
Anyone who doesn't think trading real money in an MMO isn't either P2W or in some other way isn't undermining the game itself, is fooling themselves. While I would not try to argue that GW2 is P2W, crafting and market trading was ruined by gold selling.
And Gold farming happens in all games. But the difference is how the developers at least try to handle it instead of making easier.
And the scale is much much smaller in other games. Many players who would buy in a game like GW2, didn't in WoW because it wasn't worth the risk of getting banned or hacked.
Short term? Yes. Long term? I highly doubt it, but I would love to be surprised. I wrote this up a couple of weeks ago on the current state of the P2P business model in the MMO landscape encompassing all subgenres minus FPS. There are only 7 games released prior to 2005 that still use the P2P business model exclusively; only 4 games released post 2006 that use P2P as their only source of revenue. Two of those are newcomers; one has been in maintenance mode for over two years now, leaving one game... in a period of 7 years.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/394763/page/1
What is the longevity of these games that choose to use the P2P model before converting? The last couple of years have shown that the current trend of making the transition to F2P is around the 6-12 month mark; nothing long term there if you ask me. Most either go F2P, F2P and P2W, and a few unfortunate ventures end up shutting down.
If I had to choose between Wildstar and ESO on who would last longer, I'd say Wildstar hands down. I just hope it can last at least a year (or more) before making the transition.
I play a f2p game with a cash shop right now. I can can tell you that in the first 6 months I have dropped down more money then probably I would spend in a whole year of a P2P game. Now I know that is on me, but that is probably the number 1 reason why I want to go back to a sub system.
The number 2 reason and probably almost as important as number one. Is that when you buy items from a cash shop you are stuck with that item for life. Even when they nerf it... And in the game I play now (Planetside 2 by SOE...) a weapon you purchase more then likely seems to get nerfed... So I am left with a average or below average gun that I spent 5 or more dollars on... That's not a good feeling.
------------------------------
You see, every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with their surrounding environment, but you humans do not. You spread to an area, and you multiply, and you multiply, until every natural resource is consumed. The only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet.-Mr.Smith