The CREDD system in other games doesn't hurt them one bit. If you think that all the best items in the game will be for sale for gold then I'm glad you won't be playing this game.
Originally posted by Ezbee i really wish people knew what pay to win actually is.
Me too.
Cash for items is P2W.
It is simple.
No, pay to win is paying for an advantage that is not available to other players through normal gameplay.
& what is normal gameplay? coz if its hardcore players that can make ten time more progress per hour & play all day...thats not normal gameplay, its still pay to win
normal gameplay is anything available in the game through playing.
eg p2w = buying a gun with double the stats of the best one available through raiding, this gun is only able to be obtained by buying it.
I am very excited about this game. The subscription model is perfect for a game with this much content! The new combat systems classes and paths are worth the projected price and more. They didn't even need to build the C.R.E.D.D system in but they are making sure all sides are happy! That alone proves their credibility.
I am very excited about this game. The subscription model is perfect for a game with this much content! The new combat systems classes and paths are worth the projected price and more. They didn't even need to build the C.R.E.D.D system in but they are making sure all sides are happy! That alone proves their credibility.
I'm not really sure I would say they have "credability". Wildstar will be the first game developed by this studio so while we can cite the individual projects the dev team has worked on, we have yet to see a product by the team overall. Also, since the game is still under beta we can only speculate on how much content there really is. Sure the videos, devspeak and countless articles have given us an idea of what is in store but I would be cautious about taking all the promises as truth.
I'm interested in how Wildstar manages with a subscription model in a market that had continued to shift more and more toward a F2P/B2P market. The game itself looks interesting to say the least but I really doubt the subscription model as a continued practice. For larger studios I think B2P is probably the best route but given that this year we've seen two games both set their sights on subscriptions its an odd time in the market to say the least.
Originally posted by Ezbee i really wish people knew what pay to win actually is.
Me too.
Cash for items is P2W.
It is simple.
No, pay to win is paying for an advantage that is not available to other players through normal gameplay.
No, P2W is using real money to achieve your overall objectives in the game bypassing the content you'd normally have to work through in the 1st place.
I mean isn't that how we "win" in an mmo? Achieving our objectives? Being able to acquire real ingame currency is absolutely P2W. And the more vertical the progression model the game has, the more P2W it becomes.
I think the definition is fairly subjective (every poster on this page so far seems to have a slightly different take on what it means).
What winning means is also sort of subjective. Let's say I purchase a bunch of in game currency through legal channels (however the game sets it up). And then let's say I buy a bunch of progress (crafting mats, gear, etc). You're saying I won, but what did I actually win? Winning in a multiplayer environment implies a loser, so who lost when I bought the gear? It just depends on how the game is setup and how what that purchase affects others positively and negatively. How long term are any affects (both positive and negative).
I don't play EVE, but I would think being able to sell PLEX for a ton of Isk would give me quite an advantage versus others at my level, but from what I understand it doesn't actually make me better with using what I can buy. So while I could theoretically gain quite a bit of resource power, does it really end up being a huge in game advantage in the bigger picture?
In Rift what I buy would have very little affect on the overall game in the long run. Let's say I sold a REX for 1100 plat (Faeblight's going rate is 1050 - 1100 or so) and then bought a bunch of stuff with that. What sort of long term advantage does that give me? What does having a resource advantage even mean in that game?
One thing I find quite odd in these P2W discussion is no one ever seems to consider the bad side effects of allowing too much time currency to have an affect on the game. It's still considered a sacrosanct currency, but in many cases it has a worst effect on the game than actual cash currency does. In games like EVE where time currency is very powerful I would think players would be more concerned about that than if someone can pad their resource wallet. Yet, players are perfectly content living under the false illusion that they will ever catch up or equal the power of those who have come before them that have endless time. Time currency is a lot harder to deal with and control than cash-based input.
If we are talking subjectively, I could also make the argument that EVE is P2W. The difference is that it's structured differently. It's not like games where I can go buy an "Awesome Sword of Instant Death with a chance to proc a complete deletion of your account from the database", but there are advantages to be had that come from the infusion of real money into the game beyond the individual subs. This has created a situation where the economy and power-base has been expanded beyond what it would normally have been had each player been responsible for purchasing their own accounts. But here we have a clear advantage being gained in the form of multiple accounts. Just that CCP has made sure of who gets the advantage.The person paying, isn't the one "winning". But yeah, EVE is still pay to win.
If we are talking subjectively, I could also make the argument that EVE is P2W. The difference is that it's structured differently. It's not like games where I can go buy an "Awesome Sword of Instant Death with a chance to proc a complete deletion of your account from the database", but there are advantages to be had that come from the infusion of real money into the game beyond the individual subs. This has created a situation where the economy and power-base has been expanded beyond what it would normally have been had each player been responsible for purchasing their own accounts. But here we have a clear advantage being gained in the form of multiple accounts. Just that CCP has made sure of who gets the advantage.The person paying, isn't the one "winning". But yeah, EVE is still pay to win.
Maybe it needs a new term.
Pay to lose?
Pay to not win?
pay for someone else to win?
Oh, I know, how about "P4G" (Pay for Goons)?
I like arguing with you. Sometimes we don't think that differently. I've used EVE and PLEX as P2W in a discussion before. I don't always agree with you either, but it's usually fun and thought provoking.
Overall I think it's better to question things. If something is solid it can take inspection and come through on the other side. Like FFXIV - It's a pretty straight forward model and although they blur the line a bit with box fees and pre-order bonuses, it's still fairly simple. You either that or don't.
Wildstar and ESO on the other hand are saying one thing, in the case of ESO doing another, and both have made preparations for if their first plan doesn't work for them. It feels convoluted and to me sends this message - We couldn't come up with an honest payment model so we're going to try and squeeze as much out of you as we can and when that doesn't work we have other plans in place to keep squeezing you. It just feels like they're working harder on monetizing and maximizing than they are on making the best game they can and profiting from that.
You know, you are right about FF14. I just never looked at it like that. FF14's model is straight forward. So really the question is, "Does the game deserve the model?" But with FF14, I don't get the feeling they plan to pull a bait and switch if it doesn't wok out. ESO, I feel is a straight up cash grab. And Wild Star, I don't know. I get the impression Carbine would just prefer P2P but NCSoft wants more monetization and this is their compromise.
But ultimately, I've yet to see a game where infusing real money into the game's economy has not made drastic changes to that game's economic base. There's no way it can't.
Originally posted by Ezbee i really wish people knew what pay to win actually is.
Me too.
Cash for items is P2W.
It is simple.
No, pay to win is paying for an advantage that is not available to other players through normal gameplay.
& what is normal gameplay? coz if its hardcore players that can make ten time more progress per hour & play all day...thats not normal gameplay, its still pay to win
normal gameplay is anything available in the game through playing.
eg p2w = buying a gun with double the stats of the best one available through raiding, this gun is only able to be obtained by buying it.
Bullshit, just play Conquer Online. You can get everything by playing it but doing so means that the game has to become your new 24/7 life.
This is a very flawed payment model. It seems like it completely ignores the majority of MMO players today who are casual players and whom have decidedly left the subscription model behind. Many don't mind supporting a game from time to time via the cash shop. Some of them even end up spending an average per month on cash shop purchases greater than a typical sub fee. It's the lack of a sub-fee commitment that allows them to come and go as time and interest allows.
Those players aren't going to be able to Buy CREDD to "play for free".
How about Hard Core Players? Well, the players who blow through content and hog the largest percentage of server resources will be able to play for free. Great for them, right? Maybe even great for me personally. However, that has to be the most backwards business model I've ever seen. Casuals will pay $15/month for limited play, until they get sick of paying the fee and leave. The most dedicated players pay nothing. Gotcha. Makes perfect sense...um...well...no.
O.K., let's talk about Mr. Moneybags, who doesn't have a hard core amount of time, but want's to buy his way into better gear and more power. He can buy CREDD for $Cash at $20 a pop. He sells that CREDD for in game gold. He still needs to pay $15/month sub fee, he can't have his CREDD and use it too! During months he buys CREDD to sell to other players for Gold, he'll be spending $35+ for the month!
Casuals are expected to Subscribe, in an MMO market that has proven that requiring casuals to pay a sub fee equals a quick death for the game due to high rates of churn. Casuals who have deep pockets and want to hang with the big boys need to pay a sub fee and also take advantage of Pay to Win Cash to Gold to Power exchanges. When those players get disillusioned or burn out and realize how much money they've wasted, they never come back and usually spend the next six months trashing the game as vocally as possible. Hard Core? They get to play for free and there isn't even a cash shop where they can voluntarily spend money from time to time to support the game.
CREDD = FUBAR
The entire business model essentially writes off completely many casuals and those who prefer to support a game via a cash shop, rather than a sub fee. It allows the most hard core, resource sucking players to play 100% for free. It relies on people who want to pay for power they can't earn via hours played to support the game, but sets up a situation where there is guaranteed to be a growing resentment among those players and casuals foolish enough to pay a sub fee towards the hard core power players who will play for free.
TLDR;
They expect casuals to spend $15-$35+ per month, for limited play, in order to let the Hard Core players play mega-hours for free. Upside down, unsustainable business model designed for rapid implosion.
BTW, this doesn't even take into account the ways in which this system is guaranteed to breed resentment between friends and guild mates. It's not just a backwards business model fiscally, but it may prove to be very destructive to the community.
This is a very flawed payment model. It seems like it completely ignores the majority of MMO players today who are casual players and whom have decidedly left the subscription model behind. Many don't mind supporting a game from time to time via the cash shop. Some of them even end up spending an average per month on cash shop purchases greater than a typical sub fee. It's the lack of a sub-fee commitment that allows them to come and go as time and interest allows.
Those players aren't going to be able to Buy CREDD to "play for free".
How about Hard Core Players? Well, the players who blow through content and hog the largest percentage of server resources will be able to play for free. Great for them, right? Maybe even great for me personally. However, that has to be the most backwards business model I've ever seen. Casuals will pay $15/month for limited play, until they get sick of paying the fee and leave. The most dedicated players pay nothing. Gotcha. Makes perfect sense...um...well...no.
O.K., let's talk about Mr. Moneybags, who doesn't have a hard core amount of time, but want's to buy his way into better gear and more power. He can buy CREDD for $Cash at $20 a pop. He sells that CREDD for in game gold. He still needs to pay $15/month sub fee, he can't have his CREDD and use it too! During months he buys CREDD to sell to other players for Gold, he'll be spending $35+ for the month!
Casuals are expected to Subscribe, in an MMO market that has proven that requiring casuals to pay a sub fee equals a quick death for the game due to high rates of churn. Casuals who have deep pockets and want to hang with the big boys need to pay a sub fee and also take advantage of Pay to Win Cash to Gold to Power exchanges. When those players get disillusioned or burn out and realize how much money they've wasted, they never come back and usually spend the next six months trashing the game as vocally as possible. Hard Core? They get to play for free and there isn't even a cash shop where they can voluntarily spend money from time to time to support the game.
CREDD = FUBAR
The entire business model essentially writes off completely many casuals and those who prefer to support a game via a cash shop, rather than a sub fee. It allows the most hard core, resource sucking players to play 100% for free. It relies on people who want to pay for power they can't earn via hours played to support the game, but sets up a situation where there is guaranteed to be a growing resentment among those players and casuals foolish enough to pay a sub fee towards the hard core power players who will play for free.
TLDR;
They expect casuals to spend $15-$35+ per month, for limited play, in order to let the Hard Core players play mega-hours for free. Upside down, unsustainable business model designed for rapid implosion.
BTW, this doesn't even take into account the ways in which this system is guaranteed to breed resentment between friends and guild mates. It's not just a backwards business model fiscally, but it may prove to be very destructive to the community.
There is a simple explanation for WS not appealing to the majority.
A new Mercedes will cost you at least $60k. The price of a new Mercedes doesn't appeal to the majority of car buyers. Yet, they have their target audience, and they do well there. A business doesn't have to appeal to the majority to do well.
Carbine doesn't give two shits about those casual MMO Hoppers. That isn't the audience they are trying to attract. They want people with a little change in their pocket to pay a monthly fee each month, and plan to stick around for years. Ya, know REAL MMO players.
Now, with that said there is a lot of stuff for casuals to do in WS. This is likely one of the most single player friendly experiences in MMO history. It isn't all about hardcore raiders!
You don't have to buy CREDD as a casual player. That is Bullshit.
Most hardcore players won't get to play for Free. Again, utter Bullshit.
How does the system breed resentment between friends and family? I smell bovine excrement.
This is a very flawed payment model. It seems like it completely ignores the majority of MMO players today who are casual players and whom have decidedly left the subscription model behind. Many don't mind supporting a game from time to time via the cash shop. Some of them even end up spending an average per month on cash shop purchases greater than a typical sub fee. It's the lack of a sub-fee commitment that allows them to come and go as time and interest allows.
Those players aren't going to be able to Buy CREDD to "play for free".
How about Hard Core Players? Well, the players who blow through content and hog the largest percentage of server resources will be able to play for free. Great for them, right? Maybe even great for me personally. However, that has to be the most backwards business model I've ever seen. Casuals will pay $15/month for limited play, until they get sick of paying the fee and leave. The most dedicated players pay nothing. Gotcha. Makes perfect sense...um...well...no.
O.K., let's talk about Mr. Moneybags, who doesn't have a hard core amount of time, but want's to buy his way into better gear and more power. He can buy CREDD for $Cash at $20 a pop. He sells that CREDD for in game gold. He still needs to pay $15/month sub fee, he can't have his CREDD and use it too! During months he buys CREDD to sell to other players for Gold, he'll be spending $35+ for the month!
Casuals are expected to Subscribe, in an MMO market that has proven that requiring casuals to pay a sub fee equals a quick death for the game due to high rates of churn. Casuals who have deep pockets and want to hang with the big boys need to pay a sub fee and also take advantage of Pay to Win Cash to Gold to Power exchanges. When those players get disillusioned or burn out and realize how much money they've wasted, they never come back and usually spend the next six months trashing the game as vocally as possible. Hard Core? They get to play for free and there isn't even a cash shop where they can voluntarily spend money from time to time to support the game.
CREDD = FUBAR
The entire business model essentially writes off completely many casuals and those who prefer to support a game via a cash shop, rather than a sub fee. It allows the most hard core, resource sucking players to play 100% for free. It relies on people who want to pay for power they can't earn via hours played to support the game, but sets up a situation where there is guaranteed to be a growing resentment among those players and casuals foolish enough to pay a sub fee towards the hard core power players who will play for free.
TLDR;
They expect casuals to spend $15-$35+ per month, for limited play, in order to let the Hard Core players play mega-hours for free. Upside down, unsustainable business model designed for rapid implosion.
BTW, this doesn't even take into account the ways in which this system is guaranteed to breed resentment between friends and guild mates. It's not just a backwards business model fiscally, but it may prove to be very destructive to the community.
There is a simple explanation for WS not appealing to the majority.
A new Mercedes will cost you at least $60k. The price of a new Mercedes doesn't appeal to the majority of car buyers. Yet, they have their target audience, and they do well there. A business doesn't have to appeal to the majority to do well.
Carbine doesn't give two shits about those casual MMO Hoppers. That isn't the audience they are trying to attract. They want people with a little change in their pocket to pay a monthly fee each month, and plan to stick around for years. Ya, know REAL MMO players.
Now, with that said there is a lot of stuff for casuals to do in WS. This is likely one of the most single player friendly experiences in MMO history. It isn't all about hardcore raiders!
You don't have to buy CREDD as a casual player. That is Bullshit.
Most hardcore players won't get to play for Free. Again, utter Bullshit.
How does the system breed resentment between friends and family? I smell bovine excrement.
Well, a lot of Subscription MMOs WANTED what you say WS devs want, but most of those games have devolved into niche F2P titles. Besides, I don't think you actually have any clue what Carbine wants, so it's doubly moot.
If Most Hardcore Players won't be able to play for free, then what you are saying is the entire CREDD carrot is BS to make hardcore players think they will be able to play for free. Again, I don't think you are making a cogent argument. I chose to take the system and Carbine at face value and have evaluated that system as presented. I'm open to logical arguements that don't rely on mind reading and supposition.
I never said Casuals will have to buy CREDD. I said Casuals will have to pay a subscription fee and Casuals willing to trade $Cash for power will have to pay the subscription fee AND at least $20 on top of that, meaning that in months they buy CREDD, they will be dishing out $35+ to play the game.
As to your final counterpoint, I'm guessing you don't play MMOs with friends and guilds. Believe me, many people will be resentful that the hardcore players who already have the best of everything and time to play the game like a job will have a viable path to play for free, while they, the casuals, subsidize their game play with a $15/month fee, whether they play 40 hours a month or 4.
The model is worse than Pay to Play, which is already an outdated business model that has killed many MMOs in recent years that may have otherwise have been able to get their legs under them with a more progressive business model. Many defenders of P2P cite the level playing field and no want/need/ability to spend more than a flat fee each month as the appeal. This game is P2P, but it also allows players to buy power with $Cash, which will turn off many of the dwindling numbers of players who still prefer P2P.
It's ill conceived and likely to be detrimental to the game's chances at success. Carbine said they want to hear what players think, well, I think my opinion is clear and it's not to late to avoid a potential debacle that this business model could produce.
Well, a lot of Subscription MMOs WANTED what you say WS devs want, but most of those games have devolved into niche F2P titles. Besides, I don't think you actually have any clue what Carbine wants, so it's doubly moot.
If Most Hardcore Players won't be able to play for free, then what you are saying is the entire CREDD carrot is BS to make hardcore players think they will be able to play for free. Again, I don't think you are making a cogent argument. I chose to take the system and Carbine at face value and have evaluated that system as presented. I'm open to logical arguements that don't rely on mind reading and supposition.
I never said Casuals will have to buy CREDD. I said Casuals will have to pay a subscription fee and Casuals willing to trade $Cash for power will have to pay the subscription fee AND at least $20 on top of that, meaning that in months they buy CREDD, they will be dishing out $35+ to play the game.
As to your final counterpoint, I'm guessing you don't play MMOs with friends and guilds. Believe me, many people will be resentful that the hardcore players who already have the best of everything and time to play the game like a job will have a viable path to play for free, while they, the casuals, subsidize their game play with a $15/month fee, whether they play 40 hours a month or 4.
The model is worse than Pay to Play, which is already an outdated business model that has killed many MMOs in recent years that may have otherwise have been able to get their legs under them with a more progressive business model. Many defenders of P2P cite the level playing field and no want/need/ability to spend more than a flat fee each month as the appeal. This game is P2P, but it also allows players to buy power with $Cash, which will turn off many of the dwindling numbers of players who still prefer P2P.
It's ill conceived and likely to be detrimental to the game's chances at success. Carbine said they want to hear what players think, well, I think my opinion is clear and it's not to late to avoid a potential debacle that this business model could produce.
No, this is the 1st MMO since WoW that plans on making player retention their #1 priority.
The others tried to appeal to the masses!
Farming CREDD to play is like getting paid 30 cents an hour.
Most people, hardcore or not, aren't going to be willing to do that.
You don't know the game will sell power for cash.
There is no evidence of P2W.
Idk about him,but I have lots of friends, and none of them are that petty.
Best decision ever to go for a P2P business model and have an EvE-like system to buy gametime with ingame credits.
Difference is, you don't have to wait for the next content to have fun in Eve.
Eve online is a sandbox. The player creates the content so the more populated a world is, the better with large battles, war, conquest(territory control) or simply destroying the base of your enemies and you can do it over and over again, but the only repercussion are the other group of players that might turn against you. We call that Politic in a game.
Wild star will have none of that except the possibility to build houses for yourself and your friends.
What's the longterm gold of wildstar? Do you think players will keep playing after end game after all the manege or done?
Good thing with guild wars 2 is the fact that you only have to pay once, but once everything is done, you just have to buy the next expansion instead of paying an other 15$ when there's nothing new this month and nothing fun to end game except BG's with no politic when you can go play Battlefield 4 instead.
Best decision ever to go for a P2P business model and have an EvE-like system to buy gametime with ingame credits.
Difference is, you don't have to wait for the next content to have fun in Eve.
Eve online is a sandbox. The player creates the content so the more populated a world is, the better with large battles, war, conquest(territory control) or simply destroying the base of your enemies and you can do it over and over again, but the only repercussion are the other group of players that might turn against you. We call that Politic in a game.
Wild star will have none of that except the possibility to build houses for yourself and your friends.
What's the longterm gold of wildstar? Do you think players will keep playing after end game after all the manege or done?
Good thing with guild wars 2 is the fact that you only have to pay once, but once everything is done, you just have to buy the next expansion instead of paying an other 15$ when there's nothing new this month and nothing fun to end game except BG's with no politic when you can go play Battlefield 4 instead.
I agree to an extent.
The power of the Sandbox lies in "emergent content" and thus requires much less in the way of traditional content than a theme park style MMO.
However Wildstar has some areas that do lend themselves to emergent content. The first is warplots which seem to be an area owned and protected by a group of players (not necessarily in a guild). The second (and from what I understand this exists seperate from Warplots) are the floating guild fortresses than can be upgraded and used to battle other guilds via some sort of match making system. We may have to wait a bit for exact details on this but these both sound like systems that will add some end game life beyond the good old raid train.
That being said the payment model is disappointing. Carbine has cited that through subscriptions they can keep churning out enough content to keep the playerbase alive and happy. The issue I take with this is that past experience says otherwise, how many MMOs with subscriptions have failed because they could not keep up with the content locusts of countless other titles?
Time will tell if Carbine can survive in this market using what seems to be an outdated revenue model. That being said, maybe they will pull it off and the subscription model will flourish again. I can't help but think that that is both TESO and Wildstar thrive with their subscriptions the market will take this as a sign and we'll see a resurgence in subscription games.
A new Mercedes will cost you at least $60k. The price of a new Mercedes doesn't appeal to the majority of car buyers. Yet, they have their target audience, and they do well there. A business doesn't have to appeal to the majority to do well.
Your logic is so flawed that I got a headache over it.
If Mercedes sells a few cars then they got X times 60.000$
Those 60.000 being much more than what a regular car would cost so there is more profit in there for them, although they are selling less cars than the competition.
With the subscription model the company gets X times 15$. According to your logic they would have to charge like 30$ a month to make up for the fact that less people are still willing to pay a sub.
Anyone at this point who would stop and think for a moment would see that they are planning to drop the subscription after a year just like TSW and SWTOR did. Milking the die hard fans before they cater to the bigger masses.
A new Mercedes will cost you at least $60k. The price of a new Mercedes doesn't appeal to the majority of car buyers. Yet, they have their target audience, and they do well there. A business doesn't have to appeal to the majority to do well.
Your logic is so flawed that I got a headache over it.
If Mercedes sells a few cars then they got X times 60.000$
Those 60.000 being much more than what a regular car would cost so there is more profit in there for them, although they are selling less cars than the competition.
With the subscription model the company gets X times 15$. According to your logic they would have to charge like 30$ a month to make up for the fact that less people are still willing to pay a sub.
Anyone at this point who would stop and think for a moment would see that they are planning to drop the subscription after a year just like TSW and SWTOR did. Milking the die hard fans before they cater to the bigger masses.
Right but pretending that there isn't a decent market for people who want p2p for a good game is just as flawed.
Just because a game is p2p doesn't mean its good.
If this is a good p2p game then it will keep its market and do just fine.
There are people out there who don't bother with f2p games...and I don't get the need some people have to try to protest every single game into a f2p game...theres plenty of f2p games out there, and if these posts are any indication than you guys should be there playing those games...but your not...you are here...wanting a p2p game to go f2p...that itself speaks volumes.
You are right though, given the recent p2p flip flops...I don't trust this company yet in working through the initial decline without falling back to f2p...so I might wait a month or two on this one.
A new Mercedes will cost you at least $60k. The price of a new Mercedes doesn't appeal to the majority of car buyers. Yet, they have their target audience, and they do well there. A business doesn't have to appeal to the majority to do well.
Your logic is so flawed that I got a headache over it.
If Mercedes sells a few cars then they got X times 60.000$
Those 60.000 being much more than what a regular car would cost so there is more profit in there for them, although they are selling less cars than the competition.
With the subscription model the company gets X times 15$. According to your logic they would have to charge like 30$ a month to make up for the fact that less people are still willing to pay a sub.
Anyone at this point who would stop and think for a moment would see that they are planning to drop the subscription after a year just like TSW and SWTOR did. Milking the die hard fans before they cater to the bigger masses.
My logic isn't the least bit flawed champ.
The profit margin doesn't have to be greater for them just because they sell the car for 60k. In fact, it could even be lower. As long as they are making a profit it doesn't matter.
Where are you getting the supposed 'fact' that less people are willing to pay a sub? Ohh thats right, you pulled it out of your ass....
No, they don't have to double the sub fee. That makes no sense. They only need to make sure they are making a profit.
Stop and think.
I R O N Y!
This overwhelmingly huge asspull assumption is based on what exactly?
If this is a good p2p game then it will keep its market and do just fine.
Best decision ever to go for a P2P business model and have an EvE-like system to buy gametime with ingame credits.
I vehemently disagree.
It *would* be cool to be able to reduce or eliminate your sub cost via in game action but that should be something that's somewhat detrimental to the success of the game.
But not if it involves enabling cheaters - losers who want to buy their what thru the game with cash.
This is going to be a premium game with a premium box cost and premium monthly sub, not free to play shite.
This is just a punk move to try to jack a little extra cash out of players (because they will take a cut of these transactions) and makes no sense for a premium game. Premium games have GMS that remove cheaters from the game. You don't freaking facilitate cheating in the game itself. That's ridiculous.
Play to win. Not pay to win. That is what premium MMORPG gaming is all about.
RMT is cheating. The game company themselves facilitating currency for cash transactions is just completely idiotic.
It really makes me want to vomit that for one, so many people are willing to throw cash at games as a way to "achieve" in games, rather than play them. How about...just don't play? Do something else if you can't be bothered to actually play the game. And it makes me sick that so many people think this is ok. Grow a spine, develop some integrity. Cheating is never ok.
I think this game looks interesting but I won't even try it out as long as they plan to facilitate cheating in a supposedly premium game. I do not condone or accept cheating, and I don't want to be in a game world where I know there are lots of cheaters and people who think it's just peachy that there are cheaters everywhere. Nor do I really want anything to do with a developer who builds cheating into their game as a lame way to make a few extra bucks on top of premium pricing.
Premium MMORPGs do not feature built-in cheating via cash for gold pay 2 win. PLAY to win or don't play.
With so many casuals though, that could mean that the C.R.E.D.D.'s may be abundant .. GW2 was successful at getting people to spend $$ for cashshop gems, which could essentially be traded to other players for their in-game gold.
That is probably good news for B2P fans.
Idk, I know in Eve you have to work your ass off to get the 350m per month.
Seems like that is a recipe for extreme burn out. I know I won't be interested in doing that.
Been out of EVE for a few years? PLEX are 550m now! P:
Free to play = content updates for the cash shop. Buy to play = content updates for the cash shop. Subscription = Actual content updates!
RMT is cheating. The game company themselves facilitating currency for cash transactions is just completely idiotic.
I am amused that you find RMT to be cheating but not other things, like WoWhead.
This thread is discussing pricing for the game. I don't see how info sites play into it at all.
I also don't really see a comparison anyways. Learning how to do something or about game data doesn't give you nearly the same advantage or gain as just flat out buying the result without even putting in ANY effort.
Paying cash for thousands of game gold to buy a bunch of boe or crafted gear or crafting mats is quite a bit different from looking up how to do a slice of content that you still have to actually execute and beat or otherwise spend time doing.
You could look up where to find crafting mat X. Great. You could've asked someone in game and got the same result. You could've explored and found it. You still have to GO to that spot and spend time gathering that mat. That's worlds different from just throwing down some cash for game currency and buying the mats from the AH.
You could look up the strat for a boss. You could group with people who know the fight and teach you. You could wing it and figure it out thru trial and error. Not really that much of a difference between any of this - you still need to find a group - get into the instance - get thru the trash mobs and other bosses - and beat that boss you looked up. Chances are you still have to deal with loot tables and RNG to actually get the drop you want. You're still PLAYING the game.
If you buy game currency for cash and buy the bosses reward or something similar from the AH, you haven't played anything. Kind of a huge difference there.
RMT cheating eliminates the learning and the doing. It's just paying cash for rewards without doing anything. Big difference.
Not that this discussion was ever about any and all forms of cheating.
What it's about is this game having a premium pricing P2P model with a high box price, a sub, and on top of that, a sleazy way (that's typically associated with the worst of F2P) to try to skim a little extra cash by facilitating what is usually considered a TOS violation for cheating in any other premium P2P game.
The real question to me is, why does a game with premium pricing need to include currency exchange regardless of whether you consider it cheating or not? With a $60 box and a $15/mo sub, why do they need to skim slices of cash via hosting currency exchange on top of that? It's pretty weak.
Plus, one of the main reasons that I prefer sub-based is because it puts all players on the same footing. You all pay the same. You all have equal access to all content. You all have the same potential What determines your success is how much and/or how well you play. Your effort and skill determine your success. Not how much extra cash you're willing to throw at the game - THAT is the realm of F2P and low quality gaming. IMO, it demeans your accomplishments when you bust your ass in the game to play the game and some schmuck next to you has the same rewards - that he bought for cash.
Your opinion may vary, and that's fine, but I personally don't want to be in an online world with people who cheat at games or people who condone cheating, which is why this whole CRED thing turns me off of WildStar. The game is otherwise intriguing but the whole facilitated cheating bit makes it a no sale.
Most of my MMORPG friends are like me. They want a return to group-based and challenging gameplay, and the idea of allowing/condoning/facilitating cheating kind of goes against the whole concept of challenge. When I tell them about this CRED thing in WildStar, they all are immediately going, WTF?
I didn't buy D3 either. On top of forced online for single player games not being acceptable, I have no interest in games where cheating is built-in to the game (RMAH ... which .... they've now announced they're removing to enhance the quality of the game).
Premium MMORPGs do not feature built-in cheating via cash for gold pay 2 win. PLAY to win or don't play.
I find it kind of hypocritical, the f2p champions sit there and tell people that like p2p that f2p is the future, and how nothing else will come out that is p2p anymore, and they need to suck it up, evolve, accept it, and that the cash shops and f2p are a better model....Then someone announces a p2p game, with a sub buying/selling option that is no worse than any f2p game, and all of a sudden it is p2w, and the game sucks now, even after they had been a champion for it, since it is p2p....But when someone says they don't want to play a f2p game, people get called elitist jerks.
I do not know that I want to play Wildstar, as it looked like a lot of the same to me when I initially looked at it, but I have more interest in it then I did before this announcement.
I always prefer p2p, and no cash shop, but a p2p with this system, is better than a f2p with the average cash shop.
Correct me if I am wrong, but I think Rift is similar in some ways. I sub to it, but also drop some cash here and there for armor, weapons, mounts and extra experience if I feel like it.
Is this game going to be similar to Rift in payment methods?
Comments
The CREDD system in other games doesn't hurt them one bit. If you think that all the best items in the game will be for sale for gold then I'm glad you won't be playing this game.
normal gameplay is anything available in the game through playing.
eg p2w = buying a gun with double the stats of the best one available through raiding, this gun is only able to be obtained by buying it.
I am very excited about this game. The subscription model is perfect for a game with this much content!
The new combat systems classes and paths are worth the projected price and more.
They didn't even need to build the C.R.E.D.D system in but they are making sure all sides are happy!
That alone proves their credibility.
I'm not really sure I would say they have "credability". Wildstar will be the first game developed by this studio so while we can cite the individual projects the dev team has worked on, we have yet to see a product by the team overall. Also, since the game is still under beta we can only speculate on how much content there really is. Sure the videos, devspeak and countless articles have given us an idea of what is in store but I would be cautious about taking all the promises as truth.
I'm interested in how Wildstar manages with a subscription model in a market that had continued to shift more and more toward a F2P/B2P market. The game itself looks interesting to say the least but I really doubt the subscription model as a continued practice. For larger studios I think B2P is probably the best route but given that this year we've seen two games both set their sights on subscriptions its an odd time in the market to say the least.
Legend Gaming Website | Join Us
EinsamWulf- Legionnaire of Terminus
Best decision ever to go for a P2P business model and have an EvE-like system to buy gametime with ingame credits.
Shouldn't we wait for the game to be out before coming to that conclusion?
Legend Gaming Website | Join Us
EinsamWulf- Legionnaire of Terminus
If we are talking subjectively, I could also make the argument that EVE is P2W. The difference is that it's structured differently. It's not like games where I can go buy an "Awesome Sword of Instant Death with a chance to proc a complete deletion of your account from the database", but there are advantages to be had that come from the infusion of real money into the game beyond the individual subs. This has created a situation where the economy and power-base has been expanded beyond what it would normally have been had each player been responsible for purchasing their own accounts. But here we have a clear advantage being gained in the form of multiple accounts. Just that CCP has made sure of who gets the advantage.The person paying, isn't the one "winning". But yeah, EVE is still pay to win.
Maybe it needs a new term.
Pay to lose?
Pay to not win?
pay for someone else to win?
Oh, I know, how about "P4G" (Pay for Goons)?
You know, you are right about FF14. I just never looked at it like that. FF14's model is straight forward. So really the question is, "Does the game deserve the model?" But with FF14, I don't get the feeling they plan to pull a bait and switch if it doesn't wok out. ESO, I feel is a straight up cash grab. And Wild Star, I don't know. I get the impression Carbine would just prefer P2P but NCSoft wants more monetization and this is their compromise.
But ultimately, I've yet to see a game where infusing real money into the game's economy has not made drastic changes to that game's economic base. There's no way it can't.
Bullshit, just play Conquer Online. You can get everything by playing it but doing so means that the game has to become your new 24/7 life.
This is a very flawed payment model. It seems like it completely ignores the majority of MMO players today who are casual players and whom have decidedly left the subscription model behind. Many don't mind supporting a game from time to time via the cash shop. Some of them even end up spending an average per month on cash shop purchases greater than a typical sub fee. It's the lack of a sub-fee commitment that allows them to come and go as time and interest allows.
Those players aren't going to be able to Buy CREDD to "play for free".
How about Hard Core Players? Well, the players who blow through content and hog the largest percentage of server resources will be able to play for free. Great for them, right? Maybe even great for me personally. However, that has to be the most backwards business model I've ever seen. Casuals will pay $15/month for limited play, until they get sick of paying the fee and leave. The most dedicated players pay nothing. Gotcha. Makes perfect sense...um...well...no.
O.K., let's talk about Mr. Moneybags, who doesn't have a hard core amount of time, but want's to buy his way into better gear and more power. He can buy CREDD for $Cash at $20 a pop. He sells that CREDD for in game gold. He still needs to pay $15/month sub fee, he can't have his CREDD and use it too! During months he buys CREDD to sell to other players for Gold, he'll be spending $35+ for the month!
Casuals are expected to Subscribe, in an MMO market that has proven that requiring casuals to pay a sub fee equals a quick death for the game due to high rates of churn. Casuals who have deep pockets and want to hang with the big boys need to pay a sub fee and also take advantage of Pay to Win Cash to Gold to Power exchanges. When those players get disillusioned or burn out and realize how much money they've wasted, they never come back and usually spend the next six months trashing the game as vocally as possible. Hard Core? They get to play for free and there isn't even a cash shop where they can voluntarily spend money from time to time to support the game.
CREDD = FUBAR
The entire business model essentially writes off completely many casuals and those who prefer to support a game via a cash shop, rather than a sub fee. It allows the most hard core, resource sucking players to play 100% for free. It relies on people who want to pay for power they can't earn via hours played to support the game, but sets up a situation where there is guaranteed to be a growing resentment among those players and casuals foolish enough to pay a sub fee towards the hard core power players who will play for free.
TLDR;
They expect casuals to spend $15-$35+ per month, for limited play, in order to let the Hard Core players play mega-hours for free. Upside down, unsustainable business model designed for rapid implosion.
BTW, this doesn't even take into account the ways in which this system is guaranteed to breed resentment between friends and guild mates. It's not just a backwards business model fiscally, but it may prove to be very destructive to the community.
Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated
There is a simple explanation for WS not appealing to the majority.
A new Mercedes will cost you at least $60k. The price of a new Mercedes doesn't appeal to the majority of car buyers. Yet, they have their target audience, and they do well there. A business doesn't have to appeal to the majority to do well.
Carbine doesn't give two shits about those casual MMO Hoppers. That isn't the audience they are trying to attract. They want people with a little change in their pocket to pay a monthly fee each month, and plan to stick around for years. Ya, know REAL MMO players.
Now, with that said there is a lot of stuff for casuals to do in WS. This is likely one of the most single player friendly experiences in MMO history. It isn't all about hardcore raiders!
You don't have to buy CREDD as a casual player. That is Bullshit.
Most hardcore players won't get to play for Free. Again, utter Bullshit.
How does the system breed resentment between friends and family? I smell bovine excrement.
Well, a lot of Subscription MMOs WANTED what you say WS devs want, but most of those games have devolved into niche F2P titles. Besides, I don't think you actually have any clue what Carbine wants, so it's doubly moot.
If Most Hardcore Players won't be able to play for free, then what you are saying is the entire CREDD carrot is BS to make hardcore players think they will be able to play for free. Again, I don't think you are making a cogent argument. I chose to take the system and Carbine at face value and have evaluated that system as presented. I'm open to logical arguements that don't rely on mind reading and supposition.
I never said Casuals will have to buy CREDD. I said Casuals will have to pay a subscription fee and Casuals willing to trade $Cash for power will have to pay the subscription fee AND at least $20 on top of that, meaning that in months they buy CREDD, they will be dishing out $35+ to play the game.
As to your final counterpoint, I'm guessing you don't play MMOs with friends and guilds. Believe me, many people will be resentful that the hardcore players who already have the best of everything and time to play the game like a job will have a viable path to play for free, while they, the casuals, subsidize their game play with a $15/month fee, whether they play 40 hours a month or 4.
The model is worse than Pay to Play, which is already an outdated business model that has killed many MMOs in recent years that may have otherwise have been able to get their legs under them with a more progressive business model. Many defenders of P2P cite the level playing field and no want/need/ability to spend more than a flat fee each month as the appeal. This game is P2P, but it also allows players to buy power with $Cash, which will turn off many of the dwindling numbers of players who still prefer P2P.
It's ill conceived and likely to be detrimental to the game's chances at success. Carbine said they want to hear what players think, well, I think my opinion is clear and it's not to late to avoid a potential debacle that this business model could produce.
Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated
No, this is the 1st MMO since WoW that plans on making player retention their #1 priority.
The others tried to appeal to the masses!
Farming CREDD to play is like getting paid 30 cents an hour.
Most people, hardcore or not, aren't going to be willing to do that.
You don't know the game will sell power for cash.
There is no evidence of P2W.
Idk about him,but I have lots of friends, and none of them are that petty.
Difference is, you don't have to wait for the next content to have fun in Eve.
Eve online is a sandbox. The player creates the content so the more populated a world is, the better with large battles, war, conquest(territory control) or simply destroying the base of your enemies and you can do it over and over again, but the only repercussion are the other group of players that might turn against you. We call that Politic in a game.
Wild star will have none of that except the possibility to build houses for yourself and your friends.
What's the longterm gold of wildstar? Do you think players will keep playing after end game after all the manege or done?
Good thing with guild wars 2 is the fact that you only have to pay once, but once everything is done, you just have to buy the next expansion instead of paying an other 15$ when there's nothing new this month and nothing fun to end game except BG's with no politic when you can go play Battlefield 4 instead.
C:\Users\FF\Desktop\spin move.gif
I agree to an extent.
The power of the Sandbox lies in "emergent content" and thus requires much less in the way of traditional content than a theme park style MMO.
However Wildstar has some areas that do lend themselves to emergent content. The first is warplots which seem to be an area owned and protected by a group of players (not necessarily in a guild). The second (and from what I understand this exists seperate from Warplots) are the floating guild fortresses than can be upgraded and used to battle other guilds via some sort of match making system. We may have to wait a bit for exact details on this but these both sound like systems that will add some end game life beyond the good old raid train.
That being said the payment model is disappointing. Carbine has cited that through subscriptions they can keep churning out enough content to keep the playerbase alive and happy. The issue I take with this is that past experience says otherwise, how many MMOs with subscriptions have failed because they could not keep up with the content locusts of countless other titles?
Time will tell if Carbine can survive in this market using what seems to be an outdated revenue model. That being said, maybe they will pull it off and the subscription model will flourish again. I can't help but think that that is both TESO and Wildstar thrive with their subscriptions the market will take this as a sign and we'll see a resurgence in subscription games.
Legend Gaming Website | Join Us
EinsamWulf- Legionnaire of Terminus
Your logic is so flawed that I got a headache over it.
If Mercedes sells a few cars then they got X times 60.000$
Those 60.000 being much more than what a regular car would cost so there is more profit in there for them, although they are selling less cars than the competition.
With the subscription model the company gets X times 15$. According to your logic they would have to charge like 30$ a month to make up for the fact that less people are still willing to pay a sub.
Anyone at this point who would stop and think for a moment would see that they are planning to drop the subscription after a year just like TSW and SWTOR did. Milking the die hard fans before they cater to the bigger masses.
Right but pretending that there isn't a decent market for people who want p2p for a good game is just as flawed.
Just because a game is p2p doesn't mean its good.
If this is a good p2p game then it will keep its market and do just fine.
There are people out there who don't bother with f2p games...and I don't get the need some people have to try to protest every single game into a f2p game...theres plenty of f2p games out there, and if these posts are any indication than you guys should be there playing those games...but your not...you are here...wanting a p2p game to go f2p...that itself speaks volumes.
You are right though, given the recent p2p flip flops...I don't trust this company yet in working through the initial decline without falling back to f2p...so I might wait a month or two on this one.
My logic isn't the least bit flawed champ.
The profit margin doesn't have to be greater for them just because they sell the car for 60k. In fact, it could even be lower. As long as they are making a profit it doesn't matter.
Where are you getting the supposed 'fact' that less people are willing to pay a sub? Ohh thats right, you pulled it out of your ass....
No, they don't have to double the sub fee. That makes no sense. They only need to make sure they are making a profit.
Stop and think.
I R O N Y!
This overwhelmingly huge asspull assumption is based on what exactly?
If this is a good p2p game then it will keep its market and do just fine.
I vehemently disagree.
It *would* be cool to be able to reduce or eliminate your sub cost via in game action but that should be something that's somewhat detrimental to the success of the game.
But not if it involves enabling cheaters - losers who want to buy their what thru the game with cash.
This is going to be a premium game with a premium box cost and premium monthly sub, not free to play shite.
This is just a punk move to try to jack a little extra cash out of players (because they will take a cut of these transactions) and makes no sense for a premium game. Premium games have GMS that remove cheaters from the game. You don't freaking facilitate cheating in the game itself. That's ridiculous.
Play to win. Not pay to win. That is what premium MMORPG gaming is all about.
RMT is cheating. The game company themselves facilitating currency for cash transactions is just completely idiotic.
It really makes me want to vomit that for one, so many people are willing to throw cash at games as a way to "achieve" in games, rather than play them. How about...just don't play? Do something else if you can't be bothered to actually play the game. And it makes me sick that so many people think this is ok. Grow a spine, develop some integrity. Cheating is never ok.
I think this game looks interesting but I won't even try it out as long as they plan to facilitate cheating in a supposedly premium game. I do not condone or accept cheating, and I don't want to be in a game world where I know there are lots of cheaters and people who think it's just peachy that there are cheaters everywhere. Nor do I really want anything to do with a developer who builds cheating into their game as a lame way to make a few extra bucks on top of premium pricing.
Premium MMORPGs do not feature built-in cheating via cash for gold pay 2 win. PLAY to win or don't play.
I am amused that you find RMT to be cheating but not other things, like WoWhead.
http://chroniclesofthenerds.com/nerdfight/
Y U NO FLIP TABLE?!?!?!
Been out of EVE for a few years? PLEX are 550m now! P:
Free to play = content updates for the cash shop. Buy to play = content updates for the cash shop.
Subscription = Actual content updates!
This thread is discussing pricing for the game. I don't see how info sites play into it at all.
I also don't really see a comparison anyways. Learning how to do something or about game data doesn't give you nearly the same advantage or gain as just flat out buying the result without even putting in ANY effort.
Paying cash for thousands of game gold to buy a bunch of boe or crafted gear or crafting mats is quite a bit different from looking up how to do a slice of content that you still have to actually execute and beat or otherwise spend time doing.
You could look up where to find crafting mat X. Great. You could've asked someone in game and got the same result. You could've explored and found it. You still have to GO to that spot and spend time gathering that mat. That's worlds different from just throwing down some cash for game currency and buying the mats from the AH.
You could look up the strat for a boss. You could group with people who know the fight and teach you. You could wing it and figure it out thru trial and error. Not really that much of a difference between any of this - you still need to find a group - get into the instance - get thru the trash mobs and other bosses - and beat that boss you looked up. Chances are you still have to deal with loot tables and RNG to actually get the drop you want. You're still PLAYING the game.
If you buy game currency for cash and buy the bosses reward or something similar from the AH, you haven't played anything. Kind of a huge difference there.
RMT cheating eliminates the learning and the doing. It's just paying cash for rewards without doing anything. Big difference.
Not that this discussion was ever about any and all forms of cheating.
What it's about is this game having a premium pricing P2P model with a high box price, a sub, and on top of that, a sleazy way (that's typically associated with the worst of F2P) to try to skim a little extra cash by facilitating what is usually considered a TOS violation for cheating in any other premium P2P game.
The real question to me is, why does a game with premium pricing need to include currency exchange regardless of whether you consider it cheating or not? With a $60 box and a $15/mo sub, why do they need to skim slices of cash via hosting currency exchange on top of that? It's pretty weak.
Plus, one of the main reasons that I prefer sub-based is because it puts all players on the same footing. You all pay the same. You all have equal access to all content. You all have the same potential What determines your success is how much and/or how well you play. Your effort and skill determine your success. Not how much extra cash you're willing to throw at the game - THAT is the realm of F2P and low quality gaming. IMO, it demeans your accomplishments when you bust your ass in the game to play the game and some schmuck next to you has the same rewards - that he bought for cash.
Your opinion may vary, and that's fine, but I personally don't want to be in an online world with people who cheat at games or people who condone cheating, which is why this whole CRED thing turns me off of WildStar. The game is otherwise intriguing but the whole facilitated cheating bit makes it a no sale.
Most of my MMORPG friends are like me. They want a return to group-based and challenging gameplay, and the idea of allowing/condoning/facilitating cheating kind of goes against the whole concept of challenge. When I tell them about this CRED thing in WildStar, they all are immediately going, WTF?
I didn't buy D3 either. On top of forced online for single player games not being acceptable, I have no interest in games where cheating is built-in to the game (RMAH ... which .... they've now announced they're removing to enhance the quality of the game).
Premium MMORPGs do not feature built-in cheating via cash for gold pay 2 win. PLAY to win or don't play.
Correct me if I am wrong, but I think Rift is similar in some ways. I sub to it, but also drop some cash here and there for armor, weapons, mounts and extra experience if I feel like it.
Is this game going to be similar to Rift in payment methods?