Many of the posters have made the assumption that F2P = cheating (it's even in the thread title). That's what triggered my reaction. Someone sees a forest fire and know that campers use fires to cook doesn't imply that campers are arsonists. Just because A = B and C = D doesn't mean that A = D. There's just not enough information to know.
I don't anyone here has proven anything about F2P & cheating except mouthing off their opinion or describe anecdotal examples which are not proved of anything general.
It's only common sense that a game without consquences is going to have more cheaters, gold sellers and the like. They're bad enough on P2P.
Didn't you know common sense is a super power?
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
There is nothing free about f2p game, it is business and it is set to profit just like every other model.
If a free to play game gets released, it has few objectives that need to be fulfilled. It needs to get back all the money that were spent in production, and then it needs to sustain itself by covering regular expenses such as server cost, and of course earn some money for the people that are behind it. It is not only about getting it to 0, it needs to bring profit. You don't just leave a game and say, ahh screw it, we don't need money. They try as hard to maintain their game, because they want profit as much as companies that use subscription model. Why do you asume it is some kind of charity, where someone creates a game and doesn't give a f*ck after that? The whole argument that companies that use f2p don't care is bs in this light.
And that players cheat more in f2p is still just an opinion. There is nothing to back it up.
Many of the posters have made the assumption that F2P = cheating (it's even in the thread title). That's what triggered my reaction. Someone sees a forest fire and know that campers use fires to cook doesn't imply that campers are arsonists. Just because A = B and C = D doesn't mean that A = D. There's just not enough information to know.
I don't anyone here has proven anything about F2P & cheating except mouthing off their opinion or describe anecdotal examples which are not proved of anything general.
It's only common sense that a game without consquences is going to have more cheaters, gold sellers and the like. They're bad enough on P2P.
Ohh, someone used the common sense power...
So it is possible that people could cheat more, because there is no money involved and nothing to loose. Now... given that opportunity, would you cheat in a game that is crap, and has little popularity? You can't enjoy it yourself and you can't make any real profit from your cheating since the low interest.
Would it matter to you if the game you hack was f2p or p2p, if you could earn ten times more than subscription costs by gold selling?
Originally posted by Mr.Kujo And that players cheat more in f2p is still just an opinion. There is nothing to back it up.
Nothing except human nature, which is a powerful argument in and of itself. While there is no direct corelation, f2p certainly sets up the potential for more cheating, due to the lack of consequences and/or personal investment, and that kind of potential is rarely left unfulfilled. It may not quite be automatic, but it happens enough that it functionally may as well be.
Many of the posters have made the assumption that F2P = cheating (it's even in the thread title). That's what triggered my reaction. Someone sees a forest fire and know that campers use fires to cook doesn't imply that campers are arsonists. Just because A = B and C = D doesn't mean that A = D. There's just not enough information to know.
I don't anyone here has proven anything about F2P & cheating except mouthing off their opinion or describe anecdotal examples which are not proved of anything general.
It's only common sense that a game without consquences is going to have more cheaters, gold sellers and the like. They're bad enough on P2P.
Ohh, someone used the common sense power...
So it is possible that people could cheat more, because there is no money involved and nothing to loose. Now... given that opportunity, would you cheat in a game that is crap, and has little popularity? You can't enjoy it yourself and you can't make any real profit from your cheating since the low interest.
Would it matter to you if the game you hack was f2p or p2p, if you could earn ten times more than subscription costs by gold selling?
The difference is that in a p2p game, it's actually takes effort, intent, and willingness to face potential consequences; this keeps it from running too rampant even if it doesn't remove it entirely. It remains limited to a few dedicated, and usually large, operations that even if they aren't removed, can be reasonably easy to contain; in some cases, the people running the operation will even do the containment themselves to avoid too large of a backlash. F2p has no such concerns making it less protitable for the big buys to do it,but much easier for the average player, making it not only harder to control, because instead of having to monitor 2 or 3 big, obvious operations, you have to monitor thousands of individuals and their individual actions, but also harder to stop, because even if you catch it, there usually isn't as much you can do about it. Also, because it's more likely to be smaller scale, individual actions causing the problem, the people doing them are far less likely to notice or care enough to self police themselves to contain the worst of the abuses.
Many of the posters have made the assumption that F2P = cheating (it's even in the thread title). That's what triggered my reaction. Someone sees a forest fire and know that campers use fires to cook doesn't imply that campers are arsonists. Just because A = B and C = D doesn't mean that A = D. There's just not enough information to know.
I don't anyone here has proven anything about F2P & cheating except mouthing off their opinion or describe anecdotal examples which are not proved of anything general.
It's only common sense that a game without consquences is going to have more cheaters, gold sellers and the like. They're bad enough on P2P.
Ohh, someone used the common sense power...
So it is possible that people could cheat more, because there is no money involved and nothing to loose. Now... given that opportunity, would you cheat in a game that is crap, and has little popularity? You can't enjoy it yourself and you can't make any real profit from your cheating since the low interest.
Would it matter to you if the game you hack was f2p or p2p, if you could earn ten times more than subscription costs by gold selling?
Lol, it is common sense no matter how you look at it. If your game has a good reason to cheat and you have no means control the players because they have no personal investment your going to have cheaters and the like.
How many man hours is your company going to spend stopping gold spammers and cheaters who are just a new email account from coming back?
I know a group of people on another floor, that for years.. every so many months they pic a new F2P game and go grief noobs, etc.. why not, there is zero cost to them.
Much more bang for the buck than actually playing..
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
I know a group of people on another floor, that for years.. every so many months they pic a new F2P game and go grief noobs, etc.. why not, there is zero cost to them.
Much more bang for the buck than actually playing..
that is not because its a F2P game. That is the exact reason why i now only play on PvE servers in P2P games, because the same griefers plague the PvP servers and "noobs" cant level in peave or fight enemy players around their same levels in peace.
I know a group of people on another floor, that for years.. every so many months they pic a new F2P game and go grief noobs, etc.. why not, there is zero cost to them.
Much more bang for the buck than actually playing..
that is not because its a F2P game. That is the exact reason why i now only play on PvE servers in P2P games, because the same griefers plague the PvP servers and "noobs" cant level in peave or fight enemy players around their same levels in peace.
?^
They play all of them eventually and not all Free games are PvP. Not all games have levels either..
U r just venting. Plus anyone who wants in ur face PvP should be playing BF3 (&4), or planetside, not an high-fantasy roleplaying game.
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
I've cheated/hacked/exploited in almost every F2P games I played. I didn't care if I got ban. No problem, I can make new account and continue. The sad story was I never get banned. The more sadest story is - 99% people I knew or met in-game were doing the same or worse. If you think it's not fair play, think twice. You're just minority in world full of "hackers". Everyone would do anything just to get some items for free from cash shop. If you not agree, well there is always door to publisher/devs forum for QQ.
Yeah ok F2P is easier to get accounts but it still does not mean that P2P does not have cheaters as well.
No one said they don't exist in P2P games. The amount of bots playing in WoW's BGs can attest to it alone.
But if you found who was using those bots and banned them, they would be quite upset. Not only because they bought those bots, but they lost all their money and time.
No commitment = zero consequence = don't care = F2P model.
Devs that push the F2P model are showing they only care about the money. Not a quality product, because a quality product would remove the players that spoil the game from those who do pay and not cheat (and there's more that don't cheat than do, and it's not just because of losing accounts, it's because if you cheat why even play games? There's god modes in offline games for just that).
The real underlining issue is the guys that were once practicing piracy can't these days. So the dudes that did are looking for ways to play equally free. You'll notice they don't know beans about quality production values as they're used to cracked games (which are buggy). They just want what they want for free and zero commitments. They get into games and piss and crap in them. They then find the various exploits to make sure they're in god mode in an online game. If they are banned, they're used to it, since they're used to buggy cracked offline games.
So gamers are faced twofold with two problems: greedy game companies and greedy gamers. Both exploiting each other, and in return the average not cheating and paying gamer gets the crap from both ends. This is why I'm getting more turned off on games in general these days. The publishers don't seem to care but for their profits, and gamers don't care because things now are free and practically worthless in what they offer.
WTB a publisher that cares anymore about what they craft, not claim they do and play with gamers who'd actually play not bot or buy their way to OMG levels in MMORPGs.
OP, F2P gaming by itself has nothing to do with the increased popularity of cheats and hacks in games. It is directly related to the personal character of the player base. From my perspective we live in a time where the basic idea seems to be that you can do anything you want as long as you can get away with it and you will be rewarded for doing so. The needed tools for hacking and cheating various games are far more commonly available on the internet than at any other time in history and since the typical development team's objective (be they in on it or not) is to make money for some one rather than insuring integrity of play it is tolerated and slap on wrist punished to keep dollars flowing in. Why is this a surprise to anyone? It will occur in any game business model. The growing popularity of P2W is an acknowledgement of the fact that it has become accepted in the industry.
Originally posted by Crazy_Stick OP, F2P gaming by itself has nothing to do with the increased popularity of cheats and hacks in games. It is directly related to the personal character of the player base. From my perspective we live in a time where the basic idea seems to be that you can do anything you want as long as you can get away with it and you will be rewarded for doing so. The needed tools for hacking and cheating various games are far more commonly available on the internet than at any other time in history and since the typical development team's objective (be they in on it or not) is to make money for some one rather than insuring integrity of play it is tolerated and slap on wrist punished to keep dollars flowing in. Why is this a surprise to anyone? It will occur in any game business model. The growing popularity of P2W is an acknowledgement of the fact that it has become accepted in the industry.
False.
Gamers cheated from the bad old days, too. Before you cheated to feel powerful, to have fun racing through the roadblocks and play with dev tools. Didn't hurt anything as it was just you goofing off.
MMORPGs for example exploiting and cheating hurts the game and players, as it's not about you anymore.
There's a severe disconnect between offline goofing off and onlining it. Like people can't distinguish right from wrong. No morals (and by how too many gamers behave and talk, I would say they were raised in barns too). It's "gimme gimme gimme" and that's that hardcore gamer to the n00b. There's no distinction in an industry that the gamer will even protect on moral issues itself (do you truly think negative environments don't affect people? But no, don't regulate this industry over it, because my "fun" will be taken away. What fun? Pulling wings off of flies? Destroying things other people build because a game is labeled "PvP"?). Yeah, it's a lot of problems looking for easy scapegoats.
This isn't exactly cheating but another excellent example of the combination of f2p and lack of policing are mobas. The most disgusting example of this is lol of course. Wanting you to go broke over every new skin that comes out every 3 days all the while being so damn lazy they ask other players to take care of issues. You are asked to agree to a "summoners Code" and yet it apparently has no meaning.(Unless of course they want to make an example out of a pro just to make it look like thr staff doesn't just sit at desks twiddling their thumbs)
Originally posted by lasttime This isn't exactly cheating but another excellent example of the combination of f2p and lack of policing are mobas. The most disgusting example of this is lol of course. Wanting you to go broke over every new skin that comes out every 3 days all the while being so damn lazy they ask other players to take care of issues. You are asked to agree to a "summoners Code" and yet it apparently has no meaning.(Unless of course they want to make an example out of a pro just to make it look like thr staff doesn't just sit at desks twiddling their thumbs)
EvE is an example of a P2W game. As a company CCP has it's needs to make money. So they figured out some ways. The memo explaining this scheme was leaked, and the players staged an ingame riot over it and started to unsub. CCP almost lost the farm, having to fire employees due to it all, to stay afloat.
Now CCP isn't innocent. Like EQII the devs were ingame helping certain corps (guilds) with special things that no one else had or had access too. Pure favoritism. After that staged protest, CCP had to make some decisions. Continue making EvE or shutting it down as they no longer had control of the design process anymore. They decided to continue making the game. The result is EvE is tailored around one main corp and how it plays because not only is it one of the largest in the game (it's offsite community is fairly large), it's because of the $$$$$ it pumps into the game monthly. Parasitic relationship (the CSM is a joke, it's full of paid for Goons, literally). Those playing for PLEX don't care. Those n00bs starting the game are unaware what they gotten themselves into. CCP is still in business. Goons have their bragging rights.
Gamers, and MMO players especially, have always had a good percentage of cheaters, exploiters, players who seek out bugs or even use hacks to gain advantage in the game. With developers always having to create new mechanics to stop them, or police the game. But it seems with the recent surge in F2P games that this is changing.
Now it would seem the cheaters are the majority, look in any forum or chat complaining about exploits and invariably the attitude isn't "damn those cheaters are ruining the game" it's "damn, I wish I could have cheated too!". In fact the developers of these F2P games seem to actually be embracing the cheaters, so long as it gets them more money. The most recent example being Neverwinter (again, and it should be noted that in that instance very few of the exploiters actually had any action taken against them beyond the rollback itself). And the developers do the absolute minimum to combat these cheaters now, because that costs development time/money. To the point now where they're congratulating them.
Now I really don't care about the impact of the exploit, in this case maybe it will hurt the game economy in the long run, and maybe it diminishes the "achievement" of having gotten that mount legitimately. But what it does show is how quickly the players rush to exploit any bug found in these games. And it's no longer just the few cheaters anymore, it's nearly every player. When someone says they didn't exploit it, even though being able to, they're met with incredulity, "why not??".
And I have to ask myself. Why not? The fact is these "free" to play games create a situation where it's players vs. developers. With the developers trying to spend as little as they possibly can creating the game while squeezing every penny out of the players for the entertainment their game provides. And the players trying to squeeze every bit of entertainment out of the game at the minimal cost to them. It's adversarial, and it's destroying any sense of acheivement left to gaming, in my opinion.
There's no joy to working hard and having fun with friends, or even strangers, to achieve some game goal anymore, it's just a race to see who can get to the goal fastest, whether by purchase or by cheat.
F2P games not only create a "free to cheat players" they create a "throw away mentality", always looking for the next game in short time aka game hopper.
F2P games create aswell more "an anonymous community" and such a business modell actually destroys the quality of a long term community. Because with a non existing subscription a lot of players are attracted which in the end do not identify that much with the game and community.
It is similar in the FPS genre, on public servers there is less teamplay, less communication and less identification with the teammates in comparison if they all belong to a squad/guild. There is a diffference in the quality of the community and a difference in gameplay quality.
Nothing except human nature, which is a powerful argument in and of itself. While there is no direct corelation, f2p certainly sets up the potential for more cheating, due to the lack of consequences and/or personal investment, and that kind of potential is rarely left unfulfilled. It may not quite be automatic, but it happens enough that it functionally may as well be.
A potential is not a fact, yet people in this thread try to convice everyone that it is, because of their mirco experiences like "my friend", or "everyone I know".. someone must know many millions of people to do such bold statements.
In real world, not imagination, I don't see any relation, WoW, a subscription game is probably the most cheated one I ever saw because of it's popularity and payment system never mattered to anyone. Since the beginning internet was full of bots for this game, never seen so many different bots and gold selling for any other game.
Size of the game and popularity is what matters. Even with the mentality that I can do it so I will do it, you won't waste your effort to hack a game just for the heck of it and if you do, it is a rare case and you aren't really breaking anyone's game with it.
It's like giving two options for a thief - you can go to a place, where entrance fee is 15$ but you can steal a cake over there, or you can go to a place with no entrance fee to steal a piece of crap that is laying there. What will logic say now?
Originally posted by sunshadow21
The difference is that in a p2p game, it's actually takes effort, intent, and willingness to face potential consequences; this keeps it from running too rampant even if it doesn't remove it entirely. It remains limited to a few dedicated, and usually large, operations that even if they aren't removed, can be reasonably easy to contain; in some cases, the people running the operation will even do the containment themselves to avoid too large of a backlash. F2p has no such concerns making it less protitable for the big buys to do it,but much easier for the average player, making it not only harder to control, because instead of having to monitor 2 or 3 big, obvious operations, you have to monitor thousands of individuals and their individual actions, but also harder to stop, because even if you catch it, there usually isn't as much you can do about it. Also, because it's more likely to be smaller scale, individual actions causing the problem, the people doing them are far less likely to notice or care enough to self police themselves to contain the worst of the abuses.
Since no one reads what I write here anyway, and people keep placing arguments I already countered, instead of trying to counter my counter-arguments, so TLDR; POPULARITY is bigger factor than the fact "I'll cheat because I can".
Cheaters always pick a popular game first, no matter payment method. There is little satisfaction in achieving something by cheating, it is all about showing off, when you cheat, process doesn't matter, just the fact that you going to be better than anyone else with no effort. And you pick the biggest community to show off in, not the one that is easier to hack.
Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal
Lol, it is common sense no matter how you look at it. If your game has a good reason to cheat and you have no means control the players because they have no personal investment your going to have cheaters and the like.
How many man hours is your company going to spend stopping gold spammers and cheaters who are just a new email account from coming back?
Common sense is that you don't steal a piece of crap because it is there and no one is watching, you go for the cake. And the second sentence could mean p2p company as well.
Originally posted by Arthasm I've cheated/hacked/exploited in almost every F2P games I played. I didn't care if I got ban. No problem, I can make new account and continue. The sad story was I never get banned. The more sadest story is - 99% people I knew or met in-game were doing the same or worse. If you think it's not fair play, think twice. You're just minority in world full of "hackers". Everyone would do anything just to get some items for free from cash shop. If you not agree, well there is always door to publisher/devs forum for QQ.
You are the problem here, why are you complaining? Start from yourself. 99% of people you know, oh my good thats about 500k worth of subs! You do realise that whether you like it or not, it is in your nature, to gather people with the same interest around you. It is not conscious decision, you are doing it instinctively.
Originally posted by spizz
F2P games not only create a "free to cheat players" they create a "throw away mentality", always looking for the next game in short time aka game hopper.
Ok, I'm going to actually back my opinions up with some proff, not just my imagination like everyone else here.
Just type random stuff in google, like cheating forum pve pvp etc. Pick any site, and see it there is any discrimination between payment systems... most popular two games are mostly the P2P WoW and B2P GW2 which is pretty ironic seeing this thread.
Also take into account that there are gazillions of F2P games and much less P2P.
Sorry man, you are totally discounting the financial benefits to cheating in "F2P" games, in ways that are not even possible in P2P games.
As I mentioned before, people hacked/exploited the hell out of PS2 and NWO, both recently released games by more or less mainstream studios. They did it to make money (by selling exploited currency for real money and for getting free stuff from the cash shop), sometimes a lot of money. Why? Because the cash shop and RL currency buying systems made it possible,
And with a "F2P" game, there was no use banning people, because they popped right back. Even when the companies bothered to ban anyone, which was practically never.
And there are tons of other F2P games, both Asian imports and not, with the same exact problems. (AoW was also bad)
And that does not even touch on the bots/goldspamming problems, which are FAR worse in F2P games.
Sure, that stuff shows up in P2P games too, but not nearly as much and people there actually get banned (because the CS is usually better), and with a client to buy, it slows them down.
You can have your own opinion, but you can't have your own facts. And the facts are that there is simply more of the "bad behaviors" in F2P games because: more people play them, there is no meaningful penalty for getting caught cheating, there are financial incentives to cheating in F2P games with cash shops that are not there in P2P games, and in general, P2P game companies run a tighter ship and do better CS to combat all that stuff.
Sorry if I don't believe cheating is as bad or worse in P2Ps than F2Ps, because that has not been the case in every single MMO I have ever played.
I would add that the real connection is that F2P are better suited to "novice" hackers as a way to learn how to cheat as a platform to -reach- better "paying" game markets such as P2P or the larger F2P games.
Since in the end a real hacker wants to earn burn or spurn. Earn being the 1st.
Look at it from a buisness model stand point. 1st you need to make a market (earn)then that market becomes flooded and less can be made(burn) then one needs to usher the "farm animals" to the next game(spurn) or create a new untapped market
Essentially, a lot of F2P games are pay2cheat to begin with. So it isn't really strange that those games turn people into cheaters. They are simply designed to make people want to cheat. Of course, you don't call it cheating as it is embarrassing. I mean, just imagine if cashshops instead of listing "1000 gold", more correctly listed "Cheat Code: 1000 gold". Imagine the outrage among all the closet cheaters.
And unfortunately it has been spreading somewhat to the B2P and P2P games as well. But it isn't really a gaming phenomena alone. The acceptance of cheating has exploded in the last 20 years. I would say that social acceptance of cheating is at an 80+ year high in the West.
F2P games create aswell more "an anonymous community" and such a business modell actually destroys the quality of a long term community. Because with a non existing subscription a lot of players are attracted which in the end do not identify that much with the game and community.
Yeah.
Lucky for me. I am not looking for a long term community in games.
Comments
Didn't you know common sense is a super power?
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
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Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/If a free to play game gets released, it has few objectives that need to be fulfilled. It needs to get back all the money that were spent in production, and then it needs to sustain itself by covering regular expenses such as server cost, and of course earn some money for the people that are behind it. It is not only about getting it to 0, it needs to bring profit. You don't just leave a game and say, ahh screw it, we don't need money. They try as hard to maintain their game, because they want profit as much as companies that use subscription model. Why do you asume it is some kind of charity, where someone creates a game and doesn't give a f*ck after that? The whole argument that companies that use f2p don't care is bs in this light.
And that players cheat more in f2p is still just an opinion. There is nothing to back it up.
Ohh, someone used the common sense power...
So it is possible that people could cheat more, because there is no money involved and nothing to loose. Now... given that opportunity, would you cheat in a game that is crap, and has little popularity? You can't enjoy it yourself and you can't make any real profit from your cheating since the low interest.
Would it matter to you if the game you hack was f2p or p2p, if you could earn ten times more than subscription costs by gold selling?
Nothing except human nature, which is a powerful argument in and of itself. While there is no direct corelation, f2p certainly sets up the potential for more cheating, due to the lack of consequences and/or personal investment, and that kind of potential is rarely left unfulfilled. It may not quite be automatic, but it happens enough that it functionally may as well be.
The difference is that in a p2p game, it's actually takes effort, intent, and willingness to face potential consequences; this keeps it from running too rampant even if it doesn't remove it entirely. It remains limited to a few dedicated, and usually large, operations that even if they aren't removed, can be reasonably easy to contain; in some cases, the people running the operation will even do the containment themselves to avoid too large of a backlash. F2p has no such concerns making it less protitable for the big buys to do it,but much easier for the average player, making it not only harder to control, because instead of having to monitor 2 or 3 big, obvious operations, you have to monitor thousands of individuals and their individual actions, but also harder to stop, because even if you catch it, there usually isn't as much you can do about it. Also, because it's more likely to be smaller scale, individual actions causing the problem, the people doing them are far less likely to notice or care enough to self police themselves to contain the worst of the abuses.
Lol, it is common sense no matter how you look at it. If your game has a good reason to cheat and you have no means control the players because they have no personal investment your going to have cheaters and the like.
How many man hours is your company going to spend stopping gold spammers and cheaters who are just a new email account from coming back?
I know a group of people on another floor, that for years.. every so many months they pic a new F2P game and go grief noobs, etc.. why not, there is zero cost to them.
Much more bang for the buck than actually playing..
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
-Nariusseldon
Payment models have nothing to do with cheaters. Cheaters will cheat whenever they can exploit something regardless of payment model.
Now, Pay to Win is legal cheating and must be eradicated along with any company that insist on supporting it.
that is not because its a F2P game. That is the exact reason why i now only play on PvE servers in P2P games, because the same griefers plague the PvP servers and "noobs" cant level in peave or fight enemy players around their same levels in peace.
?^
They play all of them eventually and not all Free games are PvP. Not all games have levels either..
U r just venting. Plus anyone who wants in ur face PvP should be playing BF3 (&4), or planetside, not an high-fantasy roleplaying game.
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
-Nariusseldon
No one said they don't exist in P2P games. The amount of bots playing in WoW's BGs can attest to it alone.
But if you found who was using those bots and banned them, they would be quite upset. Not only because they bought those bots, but they lost all their money and time.
No commitment = zero consequence = don't care = F2P model.
Devs that push the F2P model are showing they only care about the money. Not a quality product, because a quality product would remove the players that spoil the game from those who do pay and not cheat (and there's more that don't cheat than do, and it's not just because of losing accounts, it's because if you cheat why even play games? There's god modes in offline games for just that).
The real underlining issue is the guys that were once practicing piracy can't these days. So the dudes that did are looking for ways to play equally free. You'll notice they don't know beans about quality production values as they're used to cracked games (which are buggy). They just want what they want for free and zero commitments. They get into games and piss and crap in them. They then find the various exploits to make sure they're in god mode in an online game. If they are banned, they're used to it, since they're used to buggy cracked offline games.
So gamers are faced twofold with two problems: greedy game companies and greedy gamers. Both exploiting each other, and in return the average not cheating and paying gamer gets the crap from both ends. This is why I'm getting more turned off on games in general these days. The publishers don't seem to care but for their profits, and gamers don't care because things now are free and practically worthless in what they offer.
WTB a publisher that cares anymore about what they craft, not claim they do and play with gamers who'd actually play not bot or buy their way to OMG levels in MMORPGs.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
I don't understand what the purpose of this thread is supposed to be.
Does the OP wish to eliminate all f2p games? If so, the cheaters are just going to live in the p2p space and cheat there.
If you don't like cheaters in f2p games. Don't play them. Personally, cheaters have zero effect on me in the games that I play.
False.
Gamers cheated from the bad old days, too. Before you cheated to feel powerful, to have fun racing through the roadblocks and play with dev tools. Didn't hurt anything as it was just you goofing off.
MMORPGs for example exploiting and cheating hurts the game and players, as it's not about you anymore.
There's a severe disconnect between offline goofing off and onlining it. Like people can't distinguish right from wrong. No morals (and by how too many gamers behave and talk, I would say they were raised in barns too). It's "gimme gimme gimme" and that's that hardcore gamer to the n00b. There's no distinction in an industry that the gamer will even protect on moral issues itself (do you truly think negative environments don't affect people? But no, don't regulate this industry over it, because my "fun" will be taken away. What fun? Pulling wings off of flies? Destroying things other people build because a game is labeled "PvP"?). Yeah, it's a lot of problems looking for easy scapegoats.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
EvE is an example of a P2W game. As a company CCP has it's needs to make money. So they figured out some ways. The memo explaining this scheme was leaked, and the players staged an ingame riot over it and started to unsub. CCP almost lost the farm, having to fire employees due to it all, to stay afloat.
Now CCP isn't innocent. Like EQII the devs were ingame helping certain corps (guilds) with special things that no one else had or had access too. Pure favoritism. After that staged protest, CCP had to make some decisions. Continue making EvE or shutting it down as they no longer had control of the design process anymore. They decided to continue making the game. The result is EvE is tailored around one main corp and how it plays because not only is it one of the largest in the game (it's offsite community is fairly large), it's because of the $$$$$ it pumps into the game monthly. Parasitic relationship (the CSM is a joke, it's full of paid for Goons, literally). Those playing for PLEX don't care. Those n00bs starting the game are unaware what they gotten themselves into. CCP is still in business. Goons have their bragging rights.
It's still sleazy.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
F2P games not only create a "free to cheat players" they create a "throw away mentality", always looking for the next game in short time aka game hopper.
F2P games create aswell more "an anonymous community" and such a business modell actually destroys the quality of a long term community. Because with a non existing subscription a lot of players are attracted which in the end do not identify that much with the game and community.
It is similar in the FPS genre, on public servers there is less teamplay, less communication and less identification with the teammates in comparison if they all belong to a squad/guild. There is a diffference in the quality of the community and a difference in gameplay quality.
A potential is not a fact, yet people in this thread try to convice everyone that it is, because of their mirco experiences like "my friend", or "everyone I know".. someone must know many millions of people to do such bold statements.
In real world, not imagination, I don't see any relation, WoW, a subscription game is probably the most cheated one I ever saw because of it's popularity and payment system never mattered to anyone. Since the beginning internet was full of bots for this game, never seen so many different bots and gold selling for any other game.
Size of the game and popularity is what matters. Even with the mentality that I can do it so I will do it, you won't waste your effort to hack a game just for the heck of it and if you do, it is a rare case and you aren't really breaking anyone's game with it.
It's like giving two options for a thief - you can go to a place, where entrance fee is 15$ but you can steal a cake over there, or you can go to a place with no entrance fee to steal a piece of crap that is laying there. What will logic say now?
Since no one reads what I write here anyway, and people keep placing arguments I already countered, instead of trying to counter my counter-arguments, so TLDR; POPULARITY is bigger factor than the fact "I'll cheat because I can".
Cheaters always pick a popular game first, no matter payment method. There is little satisfaction in achieving something by cheating, it is all about showing off, when you cheat, process doesn't matter, just the fact that you going to be better than anyone else with no effort. And you pick the biggest community to show off in, not the one that is easier to hack.
Common sense is that you don't steal a piece of crap because it is there and no one is watching, you go for the cake. And the second sentence could mean p2p company as well.
You are the problem here, why are you complaining? Start from yourself. 99% of people you know, oh my good thats about 500k worth of subs! You do realise that whether you like it or not, it is in your nature, to gather people with the same interest around you. It is not conscious decision, you are doing it instinctively.
Ok, I'm going to actually back my opinions up with some proff, not just my imagination like everyone else here.
Just type random stuff in google, like cheating forum pve pvp etc. Pick any site, and see it there is any discrimination between payment systems... most popular two games are mostly the P2P WoW and B2P GW2 which is pretty ironic seeing this thread.
Also take into account that there are gazillions of F2P games and much less P2P.
Sorry man, you are totally discounting the financial benefits to cheating in "F2P" games, in ways that are not even possible in P2P games.
As I mentioned before, people hacked/exploited the hell out of PS2 and NWO, both recently released games by more or less mainstream studios. They did it to make money (by selling exploited currency for real money and for getting free stuff from the cash shop), sometimes a lot of money. Why? Because the cash shop and RL currency buying systems made it possible,
And with a "F2P" game, there was no use banning people, because they popped right back. Even when the companies bothered to ban anyone, which was practically never.
And there are tons of other F2P games, both Asian imports and not, with the same exact problems. (AoW was also bad)
And that does not even touch on the bots/goldspamming problems, which are FAR worse in F2P games.
Sure, that stuff shows up in P2P games too, but not nearly as much and people there actually get banned (because the CS is usually better), and with a client to buy, it slows them down.
You can have your own opinion, but you can't have your own facts. And the facts are that there is simply more of the "bad behaviors" in F2P games because: more people play them, there is no meaningful penalty for getting caught cheating, there are financial incentives to cheating in F2P games with cash shops that are not there in P2P games, and in general, P2P game companies run a tighter ship and do better CS to combat all that stuff.
Sorry if I don't believe cheating is as bad or worse in P2Ps than F2Ps, because that has not been the case in every single MMO I have ever played.
I would add that the real connection is that F2P are better suited to "novice" hackers as a way to learn how to cheat as a platform to -reach- better "paying" game markets such as P2P or the larger F2P games.
Since in the end a real hacker wants to earn burn or spurn. Earn being the 1st.
Look at it from a buisness model stand point. 1st you need to make a market (earn)then that market becomes flooded and less can be made(burn) then one needs to usher the "farm animals" to the next game(spurn) or create a new untapped market
Essentially, a lot of F2P games are pay2cheat to begin with. So it isn't really strange that those games turn people into cheaters. They are simply designed to make people want to cheat. Of course, you don't call it cheating as it is embarrassing. I mean, just imagine if cashshops instead of listing "1000 gold", more correctly listed "Cheat Code: 1000 gold". Imagine the outrage among all the closet cheaters.
And unfortunately it has been spreading somewhat to the B2P and P2P games as well. But it isn't really a gaming phenomena alone. The acceptance of cheating has exploded in the last 20 years. I would say that social acceptance of cheating is at an 80+ year high in the West.
Yeah.
Lucky for me. I am not looking for a long term community in games.
Well, technically it is not the F2P that creates cheating.
It is the cash shops attached to the F2P model. If F2P games were completely free very few people would bother cheating.
If F2P games were completely free, no company would make or release them.