What has my comment got anything do with crystal ball? Two MMOS with sub models doesn't mean several MMOS.
Originally posted by Doogiehowser
I know you want to beat your chest and show it to all that P2P is making a huge comeback but trust me it is not now.
Got a crystal ball that can predict that future so surely?
Like i said; i certainly don't need a crystal ball to tell you that couple of MMOS releasing with P2P model doesn't mean that P2P is making a comeback. All you need is a common sense.
The real question here is how long before these MMOS will go F2P especially ESO with sub + cash shop.
"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.' -Jesse Schell
"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid." -Luke McKinney
"For Blizzard it makes sense [to go free-to-play] at some point," Chilton told Polygon. "But a lot of the risk is in making that transition. You hear stories about developers going free-to-play and getting double the number of players, but you don't always know it works out that way and how long it stays that way."
"The fear may be warranted, but the switch to free-to-play has benefited a number of games. Revenue in Star Wars: The Old Republic doubled after the F2P switch, while DC Universe Online went up sevenfold."
Of course games not going 8 years strong, often 1 too 3 years might validate going F2P. But do people honostly believe there will not be a uproar from people playing WoW for over 8 years paying a sub and the game would go free to play?
They might atract allot of new players but I feel they gonna loose even more.
Of course I could be wrong but this is what my feeling is telling me.
Even if it does go F2P I still won't go back to it or anything else Blizzard ever puts out again so they can do whatever they like, makes no difference to me.
Originally posted by Wylf Nonsense. Since several MMO's that are coming out are going back to subscriptions, coupled with the fact that like it or not WoW is still the reigning champion of all MMO's with 7 million plus subscribers, it does not appear that now is the time for Wow to go F2P.
Three MMOS are several now? out which one isn't even a pure sub model since it offers CREDDS and we don't even have full detail of ESO.
I know you want to beat your chest and show it to all that P2P is making a huge comeback but trust me it is not now.
That's what 'several' means. More than two but not many. The dictionary is an amazing tool.
So is reading. I clearly mentioned that ESO (sub + cash shop) and FFXIV are the only two MMOS to follow sub model. I don't consider Wildstar to be in same category because they offer Credds for those who don't want to opt for monthly sub. Big difference there.
So yes it is still two..not three or several. If Wildstar is sub model then lets start counting every MMO like EQ2, EVE and SWTOR which gives sub as an option.
Nice try.
Wulf said several MMOs are coming out with subs and you said ,"Three MMOs are several now?"
Why yes Doogie, three MMOs do constitute 'several'.
I read that pretty clearly. If you're looking for telepathy in your readers, you're going to be sorely disappointed.
Originally posted by Wylf Nonsense. Since several MMO's that are coming out are going back to subscriptions, coupled with the fact that like it or not WoW is still the reigning champion of all MMO's with 7 million plus subscribers, it does not appear that now is the time for Wow to go F2P.
Yeah because it's not like we've ever seen an mmo launch p2p and then go f2p within a year or anything....
WoW is nine years old! That is frankly an amazing run at the top, and yet it still has more paying subscriptions/players than many if not all games that are so called F2P. In no way am I claiming Wow is perfect, or the end all be all of games, but the idea that now is the time for it to switch to F2P is ludicrous. Well at least that is IMHO.
If you ment that wow has more players than all f2p games combined I don't believe you even have the slightest idea how many players are in the f2p market. Not to mention that f2p market actually makes more money than p2p one.
The fact that some games are going out as p2p doesn't mean a thing because we've all seen that train ride and how it wrecked in the past years. Also, I think they never said "NOW" is the time.. They said "somewhere in the future".
"Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life." -------------------------------
Originally posted by Wylf Nonsense. Since several MMO's that are coming out are going back to subscriptions, coupled with the fact that like it or not WoW is still the reigning champion of all MMO's with 7 million plus subscribers, it does not appear that now is the time for Wow to go F2P.
And yet every MMO released post WoW have all gone F2P or B2P that are themepark in nature, some games are in a different league like EVE. I'll be really surprised if ESO or Wildstar will be any different. FF XIV might pull it off since they have a major dedicated fan base in Japan and fans of the FF series.
And 7 million subs are utter BS. The States we only 2.something mill and that was years ago, Europe was less than 2 mill at that time also. All those "numbers" are grossly inflated by the Asian accounts that don't pay subs.
WoW will eventually have the same fate as EQ1 and EQ2, doubtful anytime soon but eventually it will have that fate. Perhaps when they release "Titan" or do a WoW reboot. I just hope if they go reboot the get rid of GC.
lol, when will you P2P haters learn? Ok so let's say WoW goes F2P , what then? They get 40 million people jump in to play, out of the 40 million, how many will actually play more then 10 hours a month? You need to understand, going F2P doesn't mean chicken breast. What good is F2P if the extra people you attract barely play the game? The point of F2P is hoping that the playerbase spends money on the cash shop, if not then the game will sooner or later fail with no updates done to it anymore since they can't afford anyone to update the game in the first place. F2P is way more of a risky business then P2P, CCP with EVE-Online have the most advanced servers in the world when it comes to MMO gaming and they barely got 1 million subs. Now what if EVE online would of been F2P since it's release? Do you really think EVE-Online would be where it is today? I think not, since the vast majority of players who play F2P don't put a dime on the game. So in the end my friends, we end up with 40-50 MMO releases a year, which 98% are F2P and all look a like and cry that the game sucks.
"For Blizzard it makes sense [to go free-to-play] at some point," Chilton told Polygon. "But a lot of the risk is in making that transition. You hear stories about developers going free-to-play and getting double the number of players, but you don't always know it works out that way and how long it stays that way."
"The fear may be warranted, but the switch to free-to-play has benefited a number of games. Revenue in Star Wars: The Old Republic doubled after the F2P switch, while DC Universe Online went up sevenfold."
I'm betting Blizz has an ace up their sleeve too. I'd be willing to bet that we'll see "Legacy Servers" before we see F2P
Originally posted by Wylf Nonsense. Since several MMO's that are coming out are going back to subscriptions, coupled with the fact that like it or not WoW is still the reigning champion of all MMO's with 7 million plus subscribers, it does not appear that now is the time for Wow to go F2P.
And yet every MMO released post WoW have all gone F2P or B2P that are themepark in nature, some games are in a different league like EVE. I'll be really surprised if ESO or Wildstar will be any different. FF XIV might pull it off since they have a major dedicated fan base in Japan and fans of the FF series.
And 7 million subs are utter BS. The States we only 2.something mill and that was years ago, Europe was less than 2 mill at that time also. All those "numbers" are grossly inflated by the Asian accounts that don't pay subs.
WoW will eventually have the same fate as EQ1 and EQ2, doubtful anytime soon but eventually it will have that fate. Perhaps when they release "Titan" or do a WoW reboot. I just hope if they go reboot the get rid of GC.
The US has more players than that, because the largest market is the US, then followed by the EU and finally China (Netease). It's more like 4mil in the US, 3 mil EU and the remaining 700k with China (it's really a smaller share. Just looking at the revenues grossed so far this quarter will prove that):
Form 10-Q Quarterly Report
Filed Aug 1, 2013
Geographic region net revenues:
North America: 560,000,000
EU: 402,000,000
Asia Pacific (Oceanic): 86,000,000
So your premise about "grossly inflated" China accounts is totally wrong. Just read those numbers for proof.
WoW will go Free 2 Play sooner rather than later. The reason is Wall Street. Every quarter the number of subs and revenue from WoW goes down. Although Blizzard is certainly not losing money far from it but their long term revenue is going down. That is a big problem as far as Wall Street is concerned. Nobody wants to invest money in a company that is in decline. The investors will demand a return to growth. They may have been able to off-set some of the lost WoW subs with revenue from D3 but Diablo has run its course at this point. The CEO won't be able stay the course for much longer. There a few alternative to Free 2 Play such as doing mass layoffs and going into maintenance mode. Ultimately Blizzard will have to restore growth at some point. The only business model that has proven to increase revenue in older games is going Free 2 Play.
WoW is fast food now... it's bargain-bin gaming. No longer premium.
I've never wanted to play a free game... they are never worth my time, nor my money...
No.
None of these other MMOs has the production values. None. Don't care how new, what pay scheme and where it came from, none.
Why? Blizzard buys the top talent. What will separate EQN and WoW? It's not innovation, it's animators. None of these other MMOs has Disney school animations. The super realistic models? Visual, animation wise just call them anime style (missing keyframes to reduce lag).
GC isn't what makes WoW special, it's their art teams. Seaming is smooth. Animations flow. Getting the most visual appeal without lag.
That takes talent. There's only 2 game companies that can hire them, EA and Activision-Blizzard. Who wants to work for less money and without the better tools?
That's why WoW is premium and will remain premium if Blizzard doesn't neglect the game (which they're doing, and I suspect I know why too).
"For Blizzard it makes sense [to go free-to-play] at some point," Chilton told Polygon. "But a lot of the risk is in making that transition. You hear stories about developers going free-to-play and getting double the number of players, but you don't always know it works out that way and how long it stays that way."
"The fear may be warranted, but the switch to free-to-play has benefited a number of games. Revenue in Star Wars: The Old Republic doubled after the F2P switch, while DC Universe Online went up sevenfold."
NOOO Don't go F2P, what DC universe online and or Star Wars The Old Republic does not have is 7.7 million subscriber.
Well currently it makes sense for any P2P MMO to go F2P at some point. For any particular MMO that could be six months to several years down the line after launch. So not sure your will be playing WoW for free just yet Nari, maybe next year.
They still have so many subscribers right now I doubt it will go F2P anytime soon. People are happily being fleeced $15 a month + whatever a couple of expansions costs each year. Aside from CoD activision doesnt have much else in its stable really so they need that monthly sub revenue.
None of these other MMOs has the production values. None. Don't care how new, what pay scheme and where it came from, none.
Why? Blizzard buys the top talent. What will separate EQN and WoW? It's not innovation, it's animators. None of these other MMOs has Disney school animations. The super realistic models? Visual, animation wise just call them anime style (missing keyframes to reduce lag).
GC isn't what makes WoW special, it's their art teams. Seaming is smooth. Animations flow. Getting the most visual appeal without lag.
Hate to break it to you but there is nothing special about WoW's animators. Visual lag was a problem in 2004 not in 2013 when most gamers have computers that can handle realistic visuals without lag. It is NOT graphics that is keeping those 7 million subs still paying. Whatever is keeping them paying is all in the past though. The current trend has WoW bleeding out subs. Losing 4 million subs from their 11 million sub high is nothing to be proud of. If anything it proves the WoW model is no longer working. The market has WoW fatigue.
None of these other MMOs has the production values. None. Don't care how new, what pay scheme and where it came from, none.
Why? Blizzard buys the top talent. What will separate EQN and WoW? It's not innovation, it's animators. None of these other MMOs has Disney school animations. The super realistic models? Visual, animation wise just call them anime style (missing keyframes to reduce lag).
GC isn't what makes WoW special, it's their art teams. Seaming is smooth. Animations flow. Getting the most visual appeal without lag.
Hate to break it to you but there is nothing special about WoW's animators. Visual lag was a problem in 2004 not in 2013 when most gamers have computers that can handle realistic visuals without lag. It is NOT graphics that is keeping those 7 million subs still paying. Whatever is keeping them paying is all in the past though. The current trend has WoW bleeding out subs. Losing 4 million subs from their 11 million sub high is nothing to be proud of. If anything it proves the WoW model is no longer working. The market has WoW fatigue.
Hate to break it to you, you know nothing about game design.
First, visual lag even happens now on these 2k dollar rigs. In WoW, GOAK causes lag (well that lag is how that NPC is designed in what it does, with critical frames lost to position it to begin with).
Favorite way to reduce lag (oh it's very real in MMOs even with 100mbit connections and 2k computers) is reducing keyframes. 120fps animations in a raid, for example, with 25 players -- yeah -- it's going to hurt. When keyframes are reduced improperly you'll see funky results, that make them appear much like anime toons. RIFT is a game plagued by this. Was looking at the trailers for Star Citizen, yep, it's there too.
You don't see that at all in WoW with any of their animations. Be it characters; NPCs; Pets; companions and wildlife. Smooth framerates. You can get the mod to check them and will see why, keying is very tight and smooth. They reduced to what is needed following the Disney like method.
How does that matter? You spend many hours in a game day in and day out interacting with those animations. When they're off you'll notice. Subconsciously it's a negative even if you don't understand it, it's odd, and it stacks up with other negatives. Enough negatives you'll leave to return to the nest.
The little things matter and you don't even realize it, and it's influence on what you'll even play.
"For Blizzard it makes sense [to go free-to-play] at some point," Chilton told Polygon. "But a lot of the risk is in making that transition. You hear stories about developers going free-to-play and getting double the number of players, but you don't always know it works out that way and how long it stays that way."
"The fear may be warranted, but the switch to free-to-play has benefited a number of games. Revenue in Star Wars: The Old Republic doubled after the F2P switch, while DC Universe Online went up sevenfold."
Revenue for SWTOR did double with F2P because the game was a flop and people did leave in masses. Btw did double from which stanpoint, after release or in comparison when the game was dying already. F2P is probably worth it for such games who did not good or offer low quality content.
WoW is fast food now... it's bargain-bin gaming. No longer premium.
I've never wanted to play a free game... they are never worth my time, nor my money...
No.
None of these other MMOs has the production values. None. Don't care how new, what pay scheme and where it came from, none.
Why? Blizzard buys the top talent. What will separate EQN and WoW? It's not innovation, it's animators. None of these other MMOs has Disney school animations. The super realistic models? Visual, animation wise just call them anime style (missing keyframes to reduce lag).
GC isn't what makes WoW special, it's their art teams. Seaming is smooth. Animations flow. Getting the most visual appeal without lag.
That takes talent. There's only 2 game companies that can hire them, EA and Activision-Blizzard. Who wants to work for less money and without the better tools?
That's why WoW is premium and will remain premium if Blizzard doesn't neglect the game (which they're doing, and I suspect I know why too).
[mod edit]
[mod edit]
Secondly, WoW graphics ,etc are smooth, because they are severely outdated and most middle-class household now have a decent video card. Nothing you said is a boon for Blizzard, because it's true elsewhere.
[mod edit]
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
Revenue for SWTOR did double with F2P because the game was a flop and people did leave in masses. Btw did double from which stanpoint, after release or in comparison when the game was dying already. F2P is probably worth it for such games who did not good or offer low quality content.
Quality is subjective.
YOu didn't see the hate towards wow here? Some here may claim wow has low quality content.
Personally i think wow has high quality, but tired (since i played for a while before) content. So i won't pay for it again.
But f2P, may be i willl take a look. May be not. Depends on what other entertainment alternatives i have (which is usually plenty including posting here).
LOL^You don't seem to know much about anything dude. Read my post history.Secondly, WoW graphics ,etc are smooth, because they are severely outdated and most middle-class household now have a decent video card. Nothing you said is a boon for Blizzard, because it's true elsewhere.Who r u trying to kid, ...kid?
Originally posted by UNATCOII Originally posted by PhelcherLOL^You don't seem to know much about anything dude. Read my post history.Secondly, WoW graphics ,etc are smooth, because they are severely outdated and most middle-class household now have a decent video card. Nothing you said is a boon for Blizzard, because it's true elsewhere.Who r u trying to kid, ...kid?
Work for Blizzard? Sure look like it.
I don't understand what you want to say with this video? There will always be people you don't necessary like in the workplace, especially if it is a rather big company.
Not happening. It makes sense for blizzard to do what it wants to. It makes sense not to trash thier game by going f2p. It makes sense because they are still top dog and tye ball is still in thier court.
Comments
Like i said; i certainly don't need a crystal ball to tell you that couple of MMOS releasing with P2P model doesn't mean that P2P is making a comeback. All you need is a common sense.
The real question here is how long before these MMOS will go F2P especially ESO with sub + cash shop.
"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
-Jesse Schell
"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
-Luke McKinney
Of course games not going 8 years strong, often 1 too 3 years might validate going F2P. But do people honostly believe there will not be a uproar from people playing WoW for over 8 years paying a sub and the game would go free to play?
They might atract allot of new players but I feel they gonna loose even more.
Of course I could be wrong but this is what my feeling is telling me.
Nice try.
Wulf said several MMOs are coming out with subs and you said ,"Three MMOs are several now?"
Why yes Doogie, three MMOs do constitute 'several'.
I read that pretty clearly. If you're looking for telepathy in your readers, you're going to be sorely disappointed.
If you ment that wow has more players than all f2p games combined I don't believe you even have the slightest idea how many players are in the f2p market. Not to mention that f2p market actually makes more money than p2p one.
The fact that some games are going out as p2p doesn't mean a thing because we've all seen that train ride and how it wrecked in the past years. Also, I think they never said "NOW" is the time.. They said "somewhere in the future".
"Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life."
-------------------------------
And yet every MMO released post WoW have all gone F2P or B2P that are themepark in nature, some games are in a different league like EVE. I'll be really surprised if ESO or Wildstar will be any different. FF XIV might pull it off since they have a major dedicated fan base in Japan and fans of the FF series.
And 7 million subs are utter BS. The States we only 2.something mill and that was years ago, Europe was less than 2 mill at that time also. All those "numbers" are grossly inflated by the Asian accounts that don't pay subs.
WoW will eventually have the same fate as EQ1 and EQ2, doubtful anytime soon but eventually it will have that fate. Perhaps when they release "Titan" or do a WoW reboot. I just hope if they go reboot the get rid of GC.
I'm betting Blizz has an ace up their sleeve too. I'd be willing to bet that we'll see "Legacy Servers" before we see F2P
The US has more players than that, because the largest market is the US, then followed by the EU and finally China (Netease). It's more like 4mil in the US, 3 mil EU and the remaining 700k with China (it's really a smaller share. Just looking at the revenues grossed so far this quarter will prove that):
Form 10-Q
Quarterly Report
Filed Aug 1, 2013
Geographic region net revenues:
North America: 560,000,000
EU: 402,000,000
Asia Pacific (Oceanic): 86,000,000
So your premise about "grossly inflated" China accounts is totally wrong. Just read those numbers for proof.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
Lets take a modern Free to play MMO like Neverwinter.
Nope.
WoW is fast food now... it's bargain-bin gaming. No longer premium.
I've never wanted to play a free game... they are never worth my time, nor my money...
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
-Nariusseldon
No.
None of these other MMOs has the production values. None. Don't care how new, what pay scheme and where it came from, none.
Why? Blizzard buys the top talent. What will separate EQN and WoW? It's not innovation, it's animators. None of these other MMOs has Disney school animations. The super realistic models? Visual, animation wise just call them anime style (missing keyframes to reduce lag).
GC isn't what makes WoW special, it's their art teams. Seaming is smooth. Animations flow. Getting the most visual appeal without lag.
That takes talent. There's only 2 game companies that can hire them, EA and Activision-Blizzard. Who wants to work for less money and without the better tools?
That's why WoW is premium and will remain premium if Blizzard doesn't neglect the game (which they're doing, and I suspect I know why too).
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
NOOO Don't go F2P, what DC universe online and or Star Wars The Old Republic does not have is 7.7 million subscriber.
Blizzard suck em dry!!
They still have so many subscribers right now I doubt it will go F2P anytime soon. People are happily being fleeced $15 a month + whatever a couple of expansions costs each year. Aside from CoD activision doesnt have much else in its stable really so they need that monthly sub revenue.
The day that wow goes f2p will be the darkest day in the mmo genre.
From then on out, It will be standard practice to have flashy pop ups everywhere in game trying to nickle and dime you for everything.
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
Hate to break it to you but there is nothing special about WoW's animators. Visual lag was a problem in 2004 not in 2013 when most gamers have computers that can handle realistic visuals without lag. It is NOT graphics that is keeping those 7 million subs still paying. Whatever is keeping them paying is all in the past though. The current trend has WoW bleeding out subs. Losing 4 million subs from their 11 million sub high is nothing to be proud of. If anything it proves the WoW model is no longer working. The market has WoW fatigue.
Hate to break it to you, you know nothing about game design.
First, visual lag even happens now on these 2k dollar rigs. In WoW, GOAK causes lag (well that lag is how that NPC is designed in what it does, with critical frames lost to position it to begin with).
Favorite way to reduce lag (oh it's very real in MMOs even with 100mbit connections and 2k computers) is reducing keyframes. 120fps animations in a raid, for example, with 25 players -- yeah -- it's going to hurt. When keyframes are reduced improperly you'll see funky results, that make them appear much like anime toons. RIFT is a game plagued by this. Was looking at the trailers for Star Citizen, yep, it's there too.
You don't see that at all in WoW with any of their animations. Be it characters; NPCs; Pets; companions and wildlife. Smooth framerates. You can get the mod to check them and will see why, keying is very tight and smooth. They reduced to what is needed following the Disney like method.
How does that matter? You spend many hours in a game day in and day out interacting with those animations. When they're off you'll notice. Subconsciously it's a negative even if you don't understand it, it's odd, and it stacks up with other negatives. Enough negatives you'll leave to return to the nest.
The little things matter and you don't even realize it, and it's influence on what you'll even play.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
Revenue for SWTOR did double with F2P because the game was a flop and people did leave in masses. Btw did double from which stanpoint, after release or in comparison when the game was dying already. F2P is probably worth it for such games who did not good or offer low quality content.
[mod edit]
[mod edit]
Secondly, WoW graphics ,etc are smooth, because they are severely outdated and most middle-class household now have a decent video card. Nothing you said is a boon for Blizzard, because it's true elsewhere.
[mod edit]
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
-Nariusseldon
Quality is subjective.
YOu didn't see the hate towards wow here? Some here may claim wow has low quality content.
Personally i think wow has high quality, but tired (since i played for a while before) content. So i won't pay for it again.
But f2P, may be i willl take a look. May be not. Depends on what other entertainment alternatives i have (which is usually plenty including posting here).
Work for Blizzard? Sure look like it.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
Work for Blizzard? Sure look like it.
I don't understand what you want to say with this video? There will always be people you don't necessary like in the workplace, especially if it is a rather big company.