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My one big fear
Gnostik
Member Posts: 47
I've been playing this genre since Meridian 59 in the mid-90s. When I hear Dave Georgeson open his talk by pointing out that we've essentially been playing "a LOT of Dungeons and Dragons" I get excited.
These guys get it. The genre is stale.
Because I can tell that they're bored with the genre, just like many of us veterans are, I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt on a lot of the stuff that's still under wraps. But there's one area where I can see them potentially making a big mistake, largely because a lot of games have recently done so. That mistake is offering too much freedom in swapping your character's classes and abilities.
Now I know that more freedom almost always sounds like a good thing at first blush, but it can often backfire. One way is that it can destroy any sense of character continuity. Let me illustrate what I mean with a few examples. (Please bear with me for using WoW as one of them; other examples follow.)
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Examples:
With WoW's multi-spec system, I could level a fierce Paladin who wields 2-handed weapons to the max level (90), and then, by simply clicking a button, "respec" into a healer Paladin who uses magic almost exclusively and wields a sword-and-board for defensive purposes. This despite the fact that I may have never played this role for even a single minute prior to level 90.
My character's specialization in Rift was essentially a temporary and meaningless convenience. After selecting my basic archetype at character creation, I quickly learned all the sub-types and could swap them around at will. So whatever abilities my character may have been using at a given time were no indication at all of that character's history or past. No continuity.
Finally, consider Spore, a game from a totally different genre that nonetheless illustrates the point well. Whenever I went into the species editor in Spore, I had complete freedom to change my creature around in any way I chose - and this was terrible. Complete freedom meant that my creature need bear no resemblance whatsoever to what went before. Each iteration was completely independent from the previous one, if I wanted it to be. For a game based around the concept of evolution, this was a baffling design choice.
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Now, in each case the lack of continuity had varying effects. The specifics of the game matter here. WoW's error (if I can call it that) was minor in that class uniqueness was still fairly well-preserved, and the extra spec solved a major problem that resulted from the game's design. I think a lot of people liked Rift's flexible system, but I'm sure I'm not the only one for whom it killed any sense of character development outside of a gear treadmill. And as for Spore, well, I don't think I've ever felt so let down by a game, and the total lack of continuity was the main factor. I wanted to be constrained, but I wasn't.
As I said, I'm more than willing to give this team the benefit of the doubt. I just felt obliged to point out how more freedom isn't always a good thing; there are other factors to consider.
My worst case scenario would be the possibility of learning all ~40 classes and swapping between high level abilities on any of them at any time. If my character has been casting spells and playing a magical DPS for several weeks, he should not be able to suddenly become a fearsome warrior on a whim, simply because he "picked up" those skills a year ago. I'm really hoping you can't maintain every class at a high level, that there's some sort of skill decay, or at least a time delay between drastically changing your character's role.
Thanks for reading.
Comments
I have a good amount of faith in the fact that what you continue to play will be what will be most powerful for your character, but not from a 'time' metric. More of a faction/experience metric. I believe the 'live of consequence' section of the game will account for these kind of holes in gameplay.
With that said, they did say they don't want you to be inhibited when a friend leaves the game. So, let's say two character level a healer spec and a tank-ish spec to the highest tiers (and whatever else they have planned for vertical progression). Now, lets say character 1 plays for 5 months as a healer (specialize in skills that heal), and character 2 plays a more tank-ish role (heavy armor, evasive skills) for 5 months. Character 2 quits, or unexpectedly leaves the game. I see little to no downtime between the transition of character 1 to a tank, based on what they have said. They want you to continue playing ... so this leads me to believe that skills will always be available as long as they match up with your playstyle. IE: the paladin vs. shadowknight example.
I think you may be disappointed as so far they've described multi-classing to be pretty much what you don't want.
From what I've seen, you can learn all 40+ classes and besides having to find/unlock them through travelling the world, there aren't a lot of restrictions. My guess is that we will earn "progress points" to apply to classes to progress them up the Tiers (4 so far). Most likely something similar to GW2 where you get experience for doing almost anything in the game.
They've even said that you could play a Mage and apply the points you earned to a Warrior. To me this sounds like you could have a Tier 4 Mage and continue to play as one, while dumping points into a Warrior. So essentially you wouldn't even have to play a Warrior from Tier 1-4 if you put enough time into the Mage.
Class switching will be on the fly and out of combat. Templates can be saved and named unique class titles. Assuming you'll just access a Class Panel and choose one of many templates and all your gear/skills will change instantly.
While they've said you can't be working on becoming a paladin and shadowknight at the same time due to actions you'll need to complete for both, I'm not sure we will see a lot restrictions or requirements for the majority of them. Given enough time, I'm assuming it will be possible to switch from a Necro to Paladin to a Shadowknight to a Cleric without any further steps needed.
I personally like what I've heard, but can see how many want some sort of history for their character. I'm just interpreting what I've seen so far and could be way off, but hopefully we get more details soon.
"Because I can tell that they're bored with the genre, just like many of us veterans are"
Huh?
Thanks for the extra info guys. However, Allein, you wrote:
"They've even said that you could play a Mage and apply the points you earned to a Warrior. To me this sounds like you could have a Tier 4 Mage and continue to play as one, while dumping points into a Warrior. So essentially you wouldn't even have to play a Warrior from Tier 1-4 if you put enough time into the Mage."
I just watched a video yesterday where Georgeson said the XP you earned as a Rogue could be applied only to the Rogue classes (but to any of them, yes.) At least I'm 99% sure that's what he said. If I can find it again I'll post it.
Anyway, I hope I didn't give the impression that I think total continuity is necessary or even desirable. But if a character can simply "find" and learn all the classes to max tier, save a few Paladin/Shadowknight type restrictions, doesn't that sound like a very bland and homogenous class system? Eventually every character could do pretty much everything. Why even play an RPG at that point? "Yeah, I'm a mage/warrior/paladin/druid/archer/cleric depending on my mood and the needs of the moment."
The more I think about it, there must be some limit to the number of classes a single character can master. There has to be....
Hmm, I can't remember where I saw it myself, but I believe it was the opposite. Maybe the Class Panel from SOE Live?
One thing they could do is limit the total number of "Progress Points" you could have overall.
Example: Tier 1 = 5 pts, Tier 2 = 10, Tier 3 = 20, Tier 4 = 50.
You only have a max of 1000 total points. So you have to decide where they are put and if you want a Tier 4 Warrior or a Tier 3 Mage, Rogue and Tier 2 Bard. But I'm doubting it.
Multi-Classing is part of their idea of being a "sandbox" and having freedom to play what and how you want without having an army of alts to experience the whole game. Not being an alt fan myself, I'm excited.
They have actually said that EQN should be its own genre. So while we might put it under the mmorpg umbrella, it could be considered something unique that doesn't put a lot of focus on a single R in RPG and more on multiple R's.
They seem to be going the route of "too easy" to swap instead of too hard, I share some of your concern....I hope at least you have to run back to town...
That being said a lot of it is going to come to inventory control, which is a fine way of doing it. This is how Eve does it and it works in eve only because the inventory system in eve is not "universal", for instance my main eve character is a miner/covert ops/ drone operator...these are my three main skill sets some of them overlap but most dont.
But even though I have all these skills active at all times, I can not employ them at all times because they require a certain type of ship to be used. The mining skills obviously requires a ship dedicated to that, with the right lasers to mine with and either mining drones or combat drones for defense....now if I am tooling around in my mining barge I can not just decide to cloak go off into a pvp scenario and launch drones and missles at my opponents because obvioulsy my mining ship can not do that.
From what they have described you can swap classes but skills are going to be equipment dependent (more so than just having the right weapon in your hand) the question is...How hard is it to go back and pick up your "healing set" how much inventory space will we have...
If you can swap super fast, and have access to all your gear at all times, I agree with the OP it might actually hurt the game more than help.
I just watched the part about the multiclassing in the reveal video again. Dave Georgeson says: "And as you find these classes, you can play any of them at any time, and you can mix and match the different character abilities to create a class that is exactly what you wanna play. It think that pretty much what you describe. The character will bound to any class anymore.
I feel very strange about this idea too. It pretty much kills any sense of continuity and immersion that comes from being a particular class. It makes the character a blank slate. You cant say anymore: "My character is a ...". He is everything and nothing at any times.
Sure, EQN will add new tings that define the character, what standing he has with different factions and races for example. But this can't make up for the fact that you can't say anymore what job someone has or what his abilities he has. "Here comes Dave the warrior, he has be wrestling bears in the wild since the age of 10. Oh, I have to correct myself, here comes Dave the mage, who spent his entire youth in a poorly lit laboratory.
Ok, you can imagine that this ot that class actually is the "real" class of your character, and you probably don't even have to pick up any other class. But that would only mean gimping yourself, and take away the possibility to customize your character.
I don't even see why this is necessary. What is wrong with rolling an alt if you want to play a different character. It seems to be just a convenience thing. It is for players that want to try everything without putting any commitment into a particular class. They probably also wanted to cater to the MOBA crowd, where you can pick a new toon with every new match.
That is why, like in many games, I will have themed characters. My wizard character will only use arcane caster types of abilities, except for some monk stuff as my PnP character was training in Bojutsu.
I will have a a bard swashbuckler type of rogue, an assassin type, a paladin knight type and a druid ranger type for other characters. Since they will not get the same leveling experience as I play them, I shouldn't get burned out.
I don't agree with this at all,
I think hard locked classes from D&D are less realistic "Oh hey I am Dave the rogue, and no matter how hard I try I am too stupid to learn to fit into a suit of plate armor and wear it around, I am a well and true idiot". Now in D&D you would actually be able to multiclass to escape from this absurd idea but MMO's have lost that bit for awhile now.
Also,
I have played many games now without hard class locks, The Secret World for instance, I have no fear people can play what they want even given the option to play whatever they want....I know people in the secret world who are ranged mages and some who are healers and some who are tanks, and some who just use guns, and some who like to get up close and smack you with a hammer in the face, sure they can do whatever but this is what they choose to do and it is how I know them. They have already said you can play whatever you want while leveling whatever you want, just like the secret world and its AP system, so if I do need some off skill to compliment my vision of "the perfect me" I don't have to stop being a blood mage to get them.
A better example would probably be Eve,
My character in Eve is an industrious solo tramp, That is how I view him....I started with mining which you could consider a class....I was a miner, but I quickly picked up drone skills to offer better protection for my ship, I even learned to fly a few combat ships to help clear out the mining belts of any threats before mining it., though most of the time my drones do fine. He learned to fly industrial transport ships around (which could be viewed as another class) because sometimes the best prices are "over there" and I needed something to move a lot of goods fast.
The Cover Ops ship would definately be considered a different class than a miner, but for me it was a logical extension of the character.....it allows him to scout out new systems, including extremely dangerous ones, with a better chance of not being seen or destroyed. It is also useful for launching probes and finding hidden astroids to mine. Sure it has combat utility but as an extension of a mining character its actual uses are very different than someone who is using it as an extension of a group combat specialist.
So he is still a miner, he mines....he just has a lot more utility than someone starting out because over time I have expanded his core persona...not replaced it but expanded it.
In a more character locked mode, If I went the industrial route...I could get good at mining and there would probably be advanced skills that I would have to take...maybe it would go into crafting from there or be a part of the class from the start. But If I wanted to be good at drone combat I would probably have to pick that class, or pick the "sneak" class for covert ops...I would need an alt for each when that is not what I wanted at all...I wanted a miner who was good at his job and maybe he isn't as specialized as someone who maxes out all the mining skills and all the manufacturing skills but his is what I enjoy playing....I shouldn't have to make new characters I should be able to make the character into what I want to play, within the bounds of game balance.
Once upon a time....
agreed.
I played TSW. Got all Skills. Assault Rifle was one of the kings for DPS or Soloing stuff. But i didnt liked it. So, i didnt used it. And thats how it is. The player is the one who should decide the identity of the Charakter not the developer.
And by demanding restrictions, you hurt the other side who want always the ability to be the jack-of-all-trades, the swiss army knife.
It is instead a player thing. You want to be restricted. Restrict yourself! so easy. And if you cant maintain it, ask yourself. Do you realy want the restriction in the first place? Or are you only used to it?
I for myself plan to go on a shadowknight/spellblade like charakter. If archer class is best at that, or rouge best at that is for me not important. I will play what i want to play. And exactly that is what SOE promised.
My big fear was that Everquest would be turned into a commercial product and not have it's own unique identity anymore. Sadly, that's what's happened.
Might be a very good game but they have definitely bent over and given in to the commercial trends rather than work off their own initiative and general love for fantasy.
yeah, making a f4p game and doing stuff that is always wanted to be done be developers but never done(destructability), becaus its to risky for the money ,is purely the biggest point to be out for commercial gain. /sarcsm out
And as a player i hope they achieve some commercial use to develope and maintain the game.
I don't see this at all. Why a rogue couldn't wear plate had nothing to do with intelligence, but had to do with his attributes and training. He was a rogue because he was dextrous (and not too big or strong, so he trained his whole life to be the best as a rogue. So you are saying it is believable that he could fight in plate mail when he isn't strong enough to move well in plate, nor has he spent his life training for combat in armored plate. Thats the point, the reason a rpg character is special as he dedicated his life to training to be better than regular people at his chosen role/profession. If you ignore the role play part of a game, it stops being a character in a fantasy world and becomes just a toon in a video game. I'm not sure if you played D&D, but the role was a big part of what made him special and not just another guy who could change into anything anytime. Even with multi-classing you were limited by your attributes, races, etc. The limitations are almost as important as their strengths, as overcoming the flaws using strategy makes for more interesting combat and character play.
Anyway, I believe a better way to handle having different skills for class would have been to have multiple builds for each class. Since they have 40 classes, instead have 10 classes with different paths to handle different roles. That way a ranger would be a ranger regardless if he was specced or equipped to be tank, support/cc or heal. It would still give class identity, but not limit if you need a certain role for the group.
You are what I call.. an MMO fan.. not a fantasy fan.
..and I wasn't talking about features, I was talking about style. It's like.. making the next season of Game of Thrones a cartoon. Changes everything to do with the fantasy... the story might be just as good.. but everything would just feel completely different.
He probably meant the cartoon art style, everyone do anything class system and GW2/neverwinter combat. And i don't see how destructibility is risky. It's a great addition to any mmo world. As well as some of their other interesting ideas. Yes, their implementation of these ideas will show how well it will work, but i don't see it as risky to add some great features.
And the f2p part is their worst idea, as it will make for a horrible community and they will be tempted to have gameplay options geared to getting us into the CS. Inventory slots for all the extra gear you'll need to switch classes.
and i thought this is mmoprg.com and not fantasyfan.com
OP I agree with you completely, a valid fear which has ruined many potential gaming experiences myself included.
I feel the logic is rather simple, unless core mechanics are designed by the development team with strong interdependency of specific roles/classes, the game becomes a grind for the most OP build, abilities, spec or whatever you'd like to call it.
I steer clear of these games that tout "class freedom" because I have found this consistently results in everyone running around as the flavor of the month from patch to patch, as opposed to various structured roles with different responsibilities and gameplay styles.
I think you are talking about something different. What you ask for is customisation. I completely agree with you on this point. To put the character in a pigeon hole is no good Idea. I agree, everyone should be able to learn everything as long as there are no logical or lore reasons that speak against it.
But to change the character class on the fly is something different. This basically means to take your character sheet and erase your class and abilities to write in new ones. I think the gamemaster would be quite upset if you do that. You suddenly loose the ability to hold a sword but now you can cast magic. This does make absolutely no sense within the game universe. I have no problem with someone getting any ability he wants. But he shouldn't be able to change them every five minutes.
Your character in Eve actually is consistent. The guy himself can theoretical use all his abilities all the time. He does not lose his abilities to control drones if he's in a cargo ship. There are simply no drones on the ship. Eve is a special case because the character always is an a ship of some kind. You can change your ship, but in EQN its just the guy by himself. You can't switch out your body or your personal abilities. Why do you lose the ability to wear plate mail if you switch to a mage? The mage class is not like a vehicle you embark, that has no plate armour build into it.
Pathetic reply. Anything to try get one up eh? You know my point.. and you probably understand it. But you'll still keep saying silly stuff right?
Oh, i understand perfectly. But the Problem is not SOE or EQN or the change of Art style. But what you(the collective you) ignorantly blend out.
For one. Some people say the stylizied look aims for mainstream. is that so? Look at games of the last years and year to come:
Honestly, I never understood why mages couldn't wear plate armor anyway, I guess you will just have to go back to the old D&D standby of "metal messes with magic" It continues to this day because if mages could wear plate why would they ever wear robes? It is more of a game balance issue than a homage to fantasy themes I believe.
We really don't know how "on the fly" EQN is going to allow character class changes, will it be as simple as pulling up your UI? Which the secret world allows, or will you have to go back to town? The secret world has a pretty big inventory but even in that one having multiple sets of gear for multiple load outs pretty much cramps your ability to carry anything else.
This is why I have said, and will continue to say, we do not know enough at this point to really have an opinion on a lot of this information. If your bag can not hold 4 different weapons and 8 different pieces of armor (I believe they said armor will be in 4 slots)...then you will not be able to drastically change your class on the fly and that is only TWO classes. To have three classes (say a figher, sneak, mage) you would need 12 pieces of armor in your bag, 8 weapons and any other "utility slots" they may or may not have in this game....IF you add in this complex customized weapon sub parts they keep talking about, and they take up inventory space...
you may very well be able to change on the fly and not be able to loot anything.
I'm sure the CS will alleviate this problem with extra space available. They should have weight encumbrance if they want to keep from switching too easy, but doubt they will.