Why do people keep insisting in singling out B2P as a model separate from F2P?
B2P in GW2 is just F2P + an entry fee.
It's not like you buy it and then all the content is free - it isn't. You still have an in-game cash shop and the chest + key gambling mini game that all F2P games have.
By your ridiculous definition everything is free,
P2P in WoW is just F2P + a monthly fee.
Seriously? Do you not understand the definition of the word 'free'?
What he's saying is the day to day experience in a F2P and a B2P is going to be roughly the same, as well as further revenue will be gained in the same manner between both systems, the only overall difference is an entry fee. It's not rocket science to figure this out
Box sales are not a long term revenue stream...
Ok, so what you are saying he is doesn't know the definition of the word 'free' & he doesn't understand the basics of business. Gotcha.
There is a vast difference in quality from a B2P game, and a game that launches F2P.
His example of Rift is one of the few MMOs that was able to sustain the P2P model for a substantial period of time.
Box sales are a long term revenue stream, if you can keep your game interesting, and thus new players coming in. Do you think the current 8 million people still enjoying WoW have been there from the beginning? No. WoW is probably the best selling box in gaming history. There is a constant flux of people quitting, and new players buying the game.
I'm curious...do you have tourettes? Despite having basically nothing intelligent to say, you can't pass up an opportunity to say something in an aggressive, dismissive and condescending way....and when someone does it to you, you just whine about "personal attacks."
In your first sentence you say I don't understand "free" and then in your 2nd one you switch to talking about "quality" Wtf does quality have to do with financial model when the point I made is so simple a child could understand it: GW is very similar to any F2P game with respect to their in-game marketing... quality has sweet F all to do with it.
Are you even aware of what comes out of your mouth?
I never attacked you personally. I commented on the facts of your post.
You said F2P = B2P.
Thus clearly, you don't understand the definition of 'free'.
The difference between the quality is the defining difference between B2P and F2P. A quality product is worth money, and Free product isn't.
GW having keys or whatever proves nothing, even if we were limiting the discussion to GW. However, this is about B2P v/s F2P, and your ridiculous comment that they are the same, based on your comparison between two games (neither of which were F2P).
umm ... sorry i honestly don't trust anyone from here. The only source I trust is gameindustry.biz. It is only game industry professionals there. Only professionals can comment. It isn't littered with bickering and crap. While not all of us see eye to eye sometimes, we never let it go out in a war like how it happens here.
Also, the people there are actual game developers like myself. You always tend to get a very good idea of what is going on in the industry if you pay close attention to that site. It's also how I look for jobs in some cases. :P
Edit: Ok I take that back, they are bickering about it too. XD One person even said "I would expect a little more support on this site given we're all supposed to be industry professionals. Those whining about it not being free sound more like poor jobless gamers."
Too funny. Though, again no one was asking for it for free .. but still really funny.
It's not a matter of trust or faith. Just pointing out that someone else who spends a lot of time watching the MMO world. thinks like I do: B2P is a F2P variant with differences that are hardly worth emphasizing.
As to developers... my son is also a developer. He comes to me for advice about MMOs. Developing is just a job-- a nice one, but that's all it is. No guarantee that they're any more knowledgeable about the ins and outs of MMOs than anyone else.
I take opinions at face value... credentials don't impress me a whole bunch.
That guy is an idiot. If SWTOR had been B2P, then EA would have lost millions upon millions of dollars. Lets just say I am not shocked you value his opinion....
Why do people keep insisting in singling out B2P as a model separate from F2P?
B2P in GW2 is just F2P + an entry fee.
It's not like you buy it and then all the content is free - it isn't. You still have an in-game cash shop and the chest + key gambling mini game that all F2P games have.
By your ridiculous definition everything is free,
P2P in WoW is just F2P + a monthly fee.
Seriously? Do you not understand the definition of the word 'free'?
What he's saying is the day to day experience in a F2P and a B2P is going to be roughly the same, as well as further revenue will be gained in the same manner between both systems, the only overall difference is an entry fee. It's not rocket science to figure this out
Box sales are not a long term revenue stream...
Ok, so what you are saying he is doesn't know the definition of the word 'free' & he doesn't understand the basics of business. Gotcha.
There is a vast difference in quality from a B2P game, and a game that launches F2P.
His example of Rift is one of the few MMOs that was able to sustain the P2P model for a substantial period of time.
Box sales are a long term revenue stream, if you can keep your game interesting, and thus new players coming in. Do you think the current 8 million people still enjoying WoW have been there from the beginning? No. WoW is probably the best selling box in gaming history. There is a constant flux of people quitting, and new players buying the game.
I'm curious...do you have tourettes? Despite having basically nothing intelligent to say, you can't pass up an opportunity to say something in an aggressive, dismissive and condescending way....and when someone does it to you, you just whine about "personal attacks."
In your first sentence you say I don't understand "free" and then in your 2nd one you switch to talking about "quality" Wtf does quality have to do with financial model when the point I made is so simple a child could understand it: GW is very similar to any F2P game with respect to their in-game marketing... quality has sweet F all to do with it.
Are you even aware of what comes out of your mouth?
I never attacked you personally. I commented on the facts of your post.
You said F2P = B2P.
Thus clearly, you don't understand the definition of 'free'.
The difference between the quality is the defining difference between B2P and F2P. A quality product is worth money, and Free product isn't.
GW having keys or whatever proves nothing, even if we were limiting the discussion to GW. However, this is about B2P v/s F2P, and your ridiculous comment that they are the same, based on your comparison between two games (neither of which were F2P).
umm ... sorry i honestly don't trust anyone from here. The only source I trust is gameindustry.biz. It is only game industry professionals there. Only professionals can comment. It isn't littered with bickering and crap. While not all of us see eye to eye sometimes, we never let it go out in a war like how it happens here.
Also, the people there are actual game developers like myself. You always tend to get a very good idea of what is going on in the industry if you pay close attention to that site. It's also how I look for jobs in some cases. :P
Edit: Ok I take that back, they are bickering about it too. XD One person even said "I would expect a little more support on this site given we're all supposed to be industry professionals. Those whining about it not being free sound more like poor jobless gamers."
Too funny. Though, again no one was asking for it for free .. but still really funny.
It's not a matter of trust or faith. Just pointing out that someone else who spends a lot of time watching the MMO world. thinks like I do: B2P is a F2P variant with differences that are hardly worth emphasizing.
As to developers... my son is also a developer. He comes to me for advice about MMOs. Developing is just a job-- a nice one, but that's all it is. No guarantee that they're any more knowledgeable about the ins and outs of MMOs than anyone else.
I take opinions at face value... credentials don't impress me a whole bunch.
As to developers... my son is also a developer. He comes to me for advice about MMOs. Developing is just a job-- a nice one, but that's all it is. No guarantee that they're any more knowledgeable about the ins and outs of MMOs than anyone else.
That comment makes no sense at all, if he is one he would know the ins and out alot more, i'm a gamer and then become DEV , I thought I knew it all as a gamer and realized real fast I didn't know jack shit.. I see the work that is put in to games and the time it takes and the bullshit we have to deal with.... Yes he should come to you with questions , like what do you like in a game etc , but no one person likes the same game, and it shouldn't be justa job to him, if thats the case he is in the wrong field.
Most gamer's turned DEVS do it because they love what they do and make what they make because they love it, work at a job you hate its the same if I hated a game I was working on , which I have AAA company and left, went to indies and have not turned back since.
Why do people keep insisting in singling out B2P as a model separate from F2P?
B2P in GW2 is just F2P + an entry fee.
It's not like you buy it and then all the content is free - it isn't. You still have an in-game cash shop and the chest + key gambling mini game that all F2P games have.
By your ridiculous definition everything is free,
P2P in WoW is just F2P + a monthly fee.
Seriously? Do you not understand the definition of the word 'free'?
What he's saying is the day to day experience in a F2P and a B2P is going to be roughly the same, as well as further revenue will be gained in the same manner between both systems, the only overall difference is an entry fee. It's not rocket science to figure this out
Box sales are not a long term revenue stream...
Ok, so what you are saying he is doesn't know the definition of the word 'free' & he doesn't understand the basics of business. Gotcha.
There is a vast difference in quality from a B2P game, and a game that launches F2P.
His example of Rift is one of the few MMOs that was able to sustain the P2P model for a substantial period of time.
Box sales are a long term revenue stream, if you can keep your game interesting, and thus new players coming in. Do you think the current 8 million people still enjoying WoW have been there from the beginning? No. WoW is probably the best selling box in gaming history. There is a constant flux of people quitting, and new players buying the game.
I'm curious...do you have tourettes? Despite having basically nothing intelligent to say, you can't pass up an opportunity to say something in an aggressive, dismissive and condescending way....and when someone does it to you, you just whine about "personal attacks."
In your first sentence you say I don't understand "free" and then in your 2nd one you switch to talking about "quality" Wtf does quality have to do with financial model when the point I made is so simple a child could understand it: GW is very similar to any F2P game with respect to their in-game marketing... quality has sweet F all to do with it.
Are you even aware of what comes out of your mouth?
I never attacked you personally. I commented on the facts of your post.
You said F2P = B2P.
Thus clearly, you don't understand the definition of 'free'.
The difference between the quality is the defining difference between B2P and F2P. A quality product is worth money, and Free product isn't.
GW having keys or whatever proves nothing, even if we were limiting the discussion to GW. However, this is about B2P v/s F2P, and your ridiculous comment that they are the same, based on your comparison between two games (neither of which were F2P).
umm ... sorry i honestly don't trust anyone from here. The only source I trust is gameindustry.biz. It is only game industry professionals there. Only professionals can comment. It isn't littered with bickering and crap. While not all of us see eye to eye sometimes, we never let it go out in a war like how it happens here.
Also, the people there are actual game developers like myself. You always tend to get a very good idea of what is going on in the industry if you pay close attention to that site. It's also how I look for jobs in some cases. :P
Edit: Ok I take that back, they are bickering about it too. XD One person even said "I would expect a little more support on this site given we're all supposed to be industry professionals. Those whining about it not being free sound more like poor jobless gamers."
Too funny. Though, again no one was asking for it for free .. but still really funny.
It's not a matter of trust or faith. Just pointing out that someone else who spends a lot of time watching the MMO world. thinks like I do: B2P is a F2P variant with differences that are hardly worth emphasizing.
As to developers... my son is also a developer. He comes to me for advice about MMOs. Developing is just a job-- a nice one, but that's all it is. No guarantee that they're any more knowledgeable about the ins and outs of MMOs than anyone else.
I take opinions at face value... credentials don't impress me a whole bunch.
As to developers... my son is also a developer. He comes to me for advice about MMOs. Developing is just a job-- a nice one, but that's all it is. No guarantee that they're any more knowledgeable about the ins and outs of MMOs than anyone else.
That comment makes no sense at all, if he is one he would know the ins and out alot more, i'm a gamer and then become DEV , I thought I knew it all as a gamer and realized real fast I didn't know jack shit.. I see the work that is put in to games and the time it takes and the bullshit we have to deal with.... Yes he should come to you with questions , like what do you like in a game etc , but no one person likes the same game, and it shouldn't be justa job to him, if thats the case he is in the wrong field.
Most gamer's turned DEVS do it because they love what they do and make what they make because they love it, work at a job you hate its the same if I hated a game I was working on , which I have AAA company and left, went to indies and have not turned back since.
And you develop what type of game exactly? There are a lot of sub-genres within the broad category of "games developer." Just because you know something about how one particular type is put together doesn't mean anything about your knowledge of genres you don't work in. It's like expecting a podiatrist to know about brain surgery.
The poster I was responding to just threw out the developer card to try to give some extra weight to his opinion. My response was directed at that.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Originally posted by cybersrs Guild Wars 2 made a good profit with B2P model and they still making new content.
Is subscription really necessary? Is it because they are planning to make a lot of new content? Or something else?
That may be because GW 2 is still selling copies and are rolling in it with box sales. No matter how great the game is they will need to start to rely on cash shops to keep going.
It's not a matter of trust or faith. Just pointing out that someone else who spends a lot of time watching the MMO world. thinks like I do: B2P is a F2P variant with differences that are hardly worth emphasizing.
As to developers... my son is also a developer. He comes to me for advice about MMOs. Developing is just a job-- a nice one, but that's all it is. No guarantee that they're any more knowledgeable about the ins and outs of MMOs than anyone else.
I take opinions at face value... credentials don't impress me a whole bunch.
Ya, well I would think most people would take others opinions at face value. Even when someone has credentials and opinion is still only an opinion. However, when you start looking at statistics, is when you really should not take it as face value. Basically if someone states an opinion, but has some proof to back it up, is when a person should start considering that this person might be right.
As for B2P is a F2P variant? I guess if you really want to put it that way, that is fine. Just keep in mind that B2P, F2P, and P2P describes the business model, and not what the game feels like or plays like. Which is pretty much what I am trying to point out. You can say a B2P feels like a F2P that you paid a box price for, but you really can't say B2P is literally F2P. Saying B2P is a F2P variant is stating a fact, which makes you wrong. Saying a B2P feels like a F2P variant is an opinion. However, maybe I am just being too picky?
I personally have worked on an MMORPG in the past, not a very popular one and I only worked on it for a short period of time as a temp dev I suppose you could say. It's a free to play, 100%. No cash shop, no catches. Though the game sucks rofl. I stopped helping with development is it felt like it wasn't going any where. It's still in alpha and believe it's been over 20 years -.- It had a very mature player base, mostly all role players.
I try not to post any of the games I work on. It becomes to much of a hassle when people start asking question XD.
Though I can tell ya, I started off in the modding community. Mostly Half-Life and counter-strike mapping. Then of course started working on the source engine when half-life 2 was released. Eventually I decided to go to college. They teach a lot about every aspect of developing a game at the art institute. So I learned aspects of development that I personally don't even work in.
As for it being just a job for me? Naaa, I do it for fun. I made more money in my last profession in Telecommunications. Being a game dev though is a lot more fun, and a lot less stressful. Just that makes it worth it.
Ugh, please no. No F2P game with a cash shop and a box price to boot.
If they do go the B2P route it better be in the form of no cash shop and DLC content.
Much rather have Box+Sub and nothing else to worry about.
My only fear these days is a p2p mmorpg going f2p...they typically kick you in the face if you were a past paid member and make you rebuy the game in the cash shop like with SWTOR...rather than thanking you for supporting tem in the past like TERA did.
Payment model is important to me for mmorpgs. Im fully a steam junky now, and floating around with games gets me distracted, having a sub keeps me grounded and into that one game.
With every f2p game any distraction is reason to stop playing and forget about the mmorpg (mostly because most single player games offer better content, though limited in content and playtime) but its very easy to just forget about that free mmo...not to mention the quality is always vastly lower (don't care about your counter arguments its an opinion)
So yeah Stick with Sub or B2P+DLC content like TES games currently do. No more of this GW2 crap item mall with a box price. Such a model seems to focus in on wallet raping early before people get bored and leave, such as what happened with Gw2 (heard they were down to only 4 servers which speaks volumes on retaining players)
i think the GW2 model would fit this game perfectly specially since it stays true to the TES franchise model. But i might try it if they dont add a cash shop. I'll have a hard time alternating my one and only subscription between WoW, XIV, and WildStar(if they allow me to turn off telegraphs).
Ugh, please no. No F2P game with a cash shop and a box price to boot.
If they do go the B2P route it better be in the form of no cash shop and DLC content.
Much rather have Box+Sub and nothing else to worry about.
My only fear these days is a p2p mmorpg going f2p...they typically kick you in the face if you were a past paid member and make you rebuy the game in the cash shop like with SWTOR...rather than thanking you for supporting tem in the past like TERA did.
Payment model is important to me for mmorpgs. Im fully a steam junky now, and floating around with games gets me distracted, having a sub keeps me grounded and into that one game.
With every f2p game any distraction is reason to stop playing and forget about the mmorpg (mostly because most single player games offer better content, though limited in content and playtime) but its very easy to just forget about that free mmo...not to mention the quality is always vastly lower (don't care about your counter arguments its an opinion)
So yeah Stick with Sub or B2P+DLC content like TES games currently do. No more of this GW2 crap item mall with a box price. Such a model seems to focus in on wallet raping early before people get bored and leave, such as what happened with Gw2 (heard they were down to only 4 servers which speaks volumes on retaining players)
51 Servers and going to china soon....tired of this crap.
"As you read these words, a release is seven days or less away or has just happened within the last seven days those are now the only two states youll find the world of Tyria."...Guild Wars 2
Ugh, please no. No F2P game with a cash shop and a box price to boot.
If they do go the B2P route it better be in the form of no cash shop and DLC content.
Much rather have Box+Sub and nothing else to worry about.
My only fear these days is a p2p mmorpg going f2p...they typically kick you in the face if you were a past paid member and make you rebuy the game in the cash shop like with SWTOR...rather than thanking you for supporting tem in the past like TERA did.
Payment model is important to me for mmorpgs. Im fully a steam junky now, and floating around with games gets me distracted, having a sub keeps me grounded and into that one game.
With every f2p game any distraction is reason to stop playing and forget about the mmorpg (mostly because most single player games offer better content, though limited in content and playtime) but its very easy to just forget about that free mmo...not to mention the quality is always vastly lower (don't care about your counter arguments its an opinion)
So yeah Stick with Sub or B2P+DLC content like TES games currently do. No more of this GW2 crap item mall with a box price. Such a model seems to focus in on wallet raping early before people get bored and leave, such as what happened with Gw2 (heard they were down to only 4 servers which speaks volumes on retaining players)
51 Servers and going to china soon....tired of this crap.
he doesnt play the game. He just follow the "im so cool bro" hater fanclub wagon on the forums. Also look at his post, he doesnt want a B2P model with decent cash shop. But he totally wants a P2P with box price and cash shop. No sense at all.
Originally posted by rojo6934 i think the GW2 model would fit this game perfectly specially since it stays true to the TES franchise model. But i might try it if they dont add a cash shop. I'll have a hard time alternating my one and only subscription between WoW, XIV, and WildStar(if they allow me to turn off telegraphs).
This right here.
I think B2P allows for people to at least purchase your game.
P2P will always have to potential of simply being a 30day free trial. With B2P, if people hate your game at one point, they can always come back and check it out, making each significant patch a chance to rehook people.
And what hurts more is even if you are a great P2P game, you have to compete with other subscriptions, which doesn't make any sense to me.
In short, B2P allows the merits of the game to be the sole measure of retention after entry without need for a pay wall.
I really hope ESO does well, and I'm sure it will. I just feel that P2P is a huge risk with a huge reward, but an even bigger potential downfall.
"As you read these words, a release is seven days or less away or has just happened within the last seven days those are now the only two states youll find the world of Tyria."...Guild Wars 2
One thing Blizzard did at the start of WOW was to allow skill respecs for ridiculously small amounts of game coin because they realized respecing was essential to game play.I remember the early days of DAoC, before WoW, and many were supremely pissed at the lack of respecs. Some people were like, "What the fuck is going on? This game is called Camelot and I'm a 50 Albion Armsman specced full Poleman and my spec is gimped? WTF? And worse, I cannot respec?"
And the idea of rerolling on DAoC was absurd since levelling to 50 was insanely difficult. My most memorable accomplishment ever in gaming is crystal clear, it was levelling my first level 50 in DAoC on Andred the PvP, FFA server. I remember when the server opened, it was like being in India: there was not one square inch of the map you could go without seeing other players, and on a FFA server that was nuts.
However, if someone wants a name change then, I agree, that's a different story. I have my personal collection of character names that I've built up over the years. They are original, rp, cool sounding, but most importantly, as unnoticeable as a tree in a forest. If some asshole choses a name like "Carebear" or "Legolaslol" and gets gang pk'd a thousand times, then maybe he or she SHOULD pay to have it changed.
I remember sitting in Wintergrasp one time on Tichondrius server in WoW watching some morons on Celestial Steed mounts, which could only be obtained by paying $25 at the cash shop. At the time I thought, "that's wild that someone could actually sell pixels that artistically didn't look that good, really they looked like shit, but sell probably hundreds for $25 each. That's crazy easy money." But never did I think Blizzard should not do it, I mean c'mon, it wasn't my fuckin game. Besides, it didn't affect my game experience one bit, imo all the in game mounts were better.
I would encourage Zen to make as much money as possible because I don't want GW2 patches with shit content, I want DAoC patches and WoW patches with real content. The last complete game M. Firor was associated with was DAoC so he definitely deserves this chance.
It's not a matter of trust or faith. Just pointing out that someone else who spends a lot of time watching the MMO world. thinks like I do: B2P is a F2P variant with differences that are hardly worth emphasizing.
As to developers... my son is also a developer. He comes to me for advice about MMOs. Developing is just a job-- a nice one, but that's all it is. No guarantee that they're any more knowledgeable about the ins and outs of MMOs than anyone else.
I take opinions at face value... credentials don't impress me a whole bunch.
Ya, well I would think most people would take others opinions at face value. Even when someone has credentials and opinion is still only an opinion. However, when you start looking at statistics, is when you really should not take it as face value. Basically if someone states an opinion, but has some proof to back it up, is when a person should start considering that this person might be right.
Statistics...that I would love to see and discuss. Especially with all the people in this and similar threads who assume P2P is a greedy cash grab decision.
I know, I know...companies play games with reports of MMO revenues and the F2P transition of an already declining game gives it a temporary boost. Still, there are all kinds of reports that seem to indicate that if maximizing profits is what you want, F2P is the way to go - not P2P. I'm sure $OE has done its market research and are going that route with EQN for the usual $OE reasons.
Matt Firor stated that the main reason for their decision to go P2P is immersion. Now, most opinionated cynical "experts" on Reddit dismiss that as propaganda... but just stop and think for a second, which is more immerssive, an in-game cash shop or the lack of one?
Why do we hate gold selling spammers in games? It's their half-assed marketing spam that fills up the chat and our mailbox... but F2P games all have official company spam... other than better English, how is it different from a spam and annoyance point of view?
So...bring on whatever statistics you have. Let's see if you can convince me that a) F2P is not more profitable and b) the in-game marketing is not annoying.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
It's not a matter of trust or faith. Just pointing out that someone else who spends a lot of time watching the MMO world. thinks like I do: B2P is a F2P variant with differences that are hardly worth emphasizing.
As to developers... my son is also a developer. He comes to me for advice about MMOs. Developing is just a job-- a nice one, but that's all it is. No guarantee that they're any more knowledgeable about the ins and outs of MMOs than anyone else.
I take opinions at face value... credentials don't impress me a whole bunch.
Ya, well I would think most people would take others opinions at face value. Even when someone has credentials and opinion is still only an opinion. However, when you start looking at statistics, is when you really should not take it as face value. Basically if someone states an opinion, but has some proof to back it up, is when a person should start considering that this person might be right.
Statistics...that I would love to see and discuss. Especially with all the people in this and similar threads who assume P2P is a greedy cash grab decision.
I know, I know...companies play games with reports of MMO revenues and the F2P transition of an already declining game gives it a temporary boost. Still, there are all kinds of reports that seem to indicate that if maximizing profits is what you want, F2P is the way to go - not P2P. I'm sure $OE has done its market research and are going that route with EQN for the usual $OE reasons.
Matt Firor stated that the main reason for their decision to go P2P is immersion. Now, most opinionated cynical "experts" on Reddit dismiss that as propaganda... but just stop and think for a second, which is more immerssive, an in-game cash shop or the lack of one?
Why do we hate gold selling spammers in games? It's their half-assed marketing spam that fills up the chat and our mailbox... but F2P games all have official company spam... other than better English, how is it different from a spam and annoyance point of view?
So...bring on whatever statistics you have. Let's see if you can convince me that a) F2P is not more profitable and b) the in-game marketing is not annoying.
Actually, no, I agree with those statistics and never said I didn't lol.
F2P most certainly does earn a company more money. Heck, I think for the most part B2P would earn them more money as well. Which is why I think it's crazy they decided on P2P.
That has been my whole argument the entire time.
My other argument is that P2P is dead. The model sucks. You want a P2P game, but that model causes the game to go F2P eventually, so it defeats the entire purpose in my opinion.
The truth of the matter is, a newer model needs to be developed.
However, for the time being, I think the B2P model works and prevents the game ever going entirely F2P.
It's not a matter of trust or faith. Just pointing out that someone else who spends a lot of time watching the MMO world. thinks like I do: B2P is a F2P variant with differences that are hardly worth emphasizing.
As to developers... my son is also a developer. He comes to me for advice about MMOs. Developing is just a job-- a nice one, but that's all it is. No guarantee that they're any more knowledgeable about the ins and outs of MMOs than anyone else.
I take opinions at face value... credentials don't impress me a whole bunch.
Ya, well I would think most people would take others opinions at face value. Even when someone has credentials and opinion is still only an opinion. However, when you start looking at statistics, is when you really should not take it as face value. Basically if someone states an opinion, but has some proof to back it up, is when a person should start considering that this person might be right.
Statistics...that I would love to see and discuss. Especially with all the people in this and similar threads who assume P2P is a greedy cash grab decision.
I know, I know...companies play games with reports of MMO revenues and the F2P transition of an already declining game gives it a temporary boost. Still, there are all kinds of reports that seem to indicate that if maximizing profits is what you want, F2P is the way to go - not P2P. I'm sure $OE has done its market research and are going that route with EQN for the usual $OE reasons.
Matt Firor stated that the main reason for their decision to go P2P is immersion. Now, most opinionated cynical "experts" on Reddit dismiss that as propaganda... but just stop and think for a second, which is more immerssive, an in-game cash shop or the lack of one?
Why do we hate gold selling spammers in games? It's their half-assed marketing spam that fills up the chat and our mailbox... but F2P games all have official company spam... other than better English, how is it different from a spam and annoyance point of view?
So...bring on whatever statistics you have. Let's see if you can convince me that a) F2P is not more profitable and b) the in-game marketing is not annoying.
Actually, no, I agree with those statistics and never said I didn't lol.
F2P most certainly does earn a company more money. Heck, I think for the most part B2P would earn them more money as well. Which is why I think it's crazy they decided on P2P.
That has been my whole argument the entire time.
My other argument is that P2P is dead. The model sucks. You want a P2P game, but that model causes the game to go F2P eventually, so it defeats the entire purpose in my opinion.
The truth of the matter is, a newer model needs to be developed.
However, for the time being, I think the B2P model works and prevents the game ever going entirely F2P.
I know you haven't but "greedy cash grab" is the most common anti-P2P comment I see.
And to be honest, Wilodstar and ESO going the P2P route was also a surprise to me. I've seen the same trends and was fully expecting all 3, EQN, ESO and Wildstar to be B2P..the trend seemed inevitable.
But I'm actually glad they went this way and will stay this way for at least a couple of years--Rift, a good but predictable WOW clone lasted more than 2 years before making the switch - I can't see ESO transitioning faster unless it really sucks.
I just do not like to be marketed and sold at in subtle and not so subtle ways inside the game... hate it as a matter of fact. And I know, not all B2P or F2P games are equally blatant or have outrageous prices like Neverwinter does. But the little reminders are unavoidable even if rare.
Everything in the real world is "buy me!", "you need me!" who needs that crap in a fantasy game world?
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
It's not a matter of trust or faith. Just pointing out that someone else who spends a lot of time watching the MMO world. thinks like I do: B2P is a F2P variant with differences that are hardly worth emphasizing.
As to developers... my son is also a developer. He comes to me for advice about MMOs. Developing is just a job-- a nice one, but that's all it is. No guarantee that they're any more knowledgeable about the ins and outs of MMOs than anyone else.
I take opinions at face value... credentials don't impress me a whole bunch.
Ya, well I would think most people would take others opinions at face value. Even when someone has credentials and opinion is still only an opinion. However, when you start looking at statistics, is when you really should not take it as face value. Basically if someone states an opinion, but has some proof to back it up, is when a person should start considering that this person might be right.
Statistics...that I would love to see and discuss. Especially with all the people in this and similar threads who assume P2P is a greedy cash grab decision.
I know, I know...companies play games with reports of MMO revenues and the F2P transition of an already declining game gives it a temporary boost. Still, there are all kinds of reports that seem to indicate that if maximizing profits is what you want, F2P is the way to go - not P2P. I'm sure $OE has done its market research and are going that route with EQN for the usual $OE reasons.
Matt Firor stated that the main reason for their decision to go P2P is immersion. Now, most opinionated cynical "experts" on Reddit dismiss that as propaganda... but just stop and think for a second, which is more immerssive, an in-game cash shop or the lack of one?
Why do we hate gold selling spammers in games? It's their half-assed marketing spam that fills up the chat and our mailbox... but F2P games all have official company spam... other than better English, how is it different from a spam and annoyance point of view?
So...bring on whatever statistics you have. Let's see if you can convince me that a) F2P is not more profitable and b) the in-game marketing is not annoying.
Actually, no, I agree with those statistics and never said I didn't lol.
F2P most certainly does earn a company more money. Heck, I think for the most part B2P would earn them more money as well. Which is why I think it's crazy they decided on P2P.
That has been my whole argument the entire time.
My other argument is that P2P is dead. The model sucks. You want a P2P game, but that model causes the game to go F2P eventually, so it defeats the entire purpose in my opinion.
The truth of the matter is, a newer model needs to be developed.
However, for the time being, I think the B2P model works and prevents the game ever going entirely F2P.
I know you haven't but "greedy cash grab" is the most common anti-P2P comment I see.
And to be honest, Wilodstar and ESO going the P2P route was also a surprise to me. I've seen the same trends and was fully expecting all 3, EQN, ESO and Wildstar to be B2P..the trend seemed inevitable.
But I'm actually glad they went this way and will stay this way for at least a couple of years--Rift, a good but predictable WOW clone lasted more than 2 years before making the switch - I can't see ESO transitioning faster unless it really sucks.
I just do not like to be marketed and sold at in subtle and not so subtle ways inside the game... hate it as a matter of fact. And I know, not all B2P or F2P games are equally blatant or have outrageous prices like Neverwinter does. But the little reminders are unavoidable even if rare.
Everything in the real world is "buy me!", "you need me!" who needs that crap in a fantasy game world?
ehhh ... I am going to be honest. I personally don't see it lasting over a year. I think it will go F2P by the end of 2014.
We have all seen this before. It has become the common business model for new release MMORPGs. They all release with a box / download fee, a cash shop, and an associated subscription fee to cash in for as much upfront money as they can garner during the initial launch phase when the hype is strong and everyone and their brother is trying out the game. Then, when the herd plays through and moves on to the next big game soon to release on their interest list in three months the game goes either free to play or buy to play with a yet greedier cash shop to stay relevant while most of the original design team is fired or move on to another internal project. We don't need to call Jesse Venture hare guys its all in the open and has happened before with every game we talk about on these forums released over the past few years.
Comments
That guy is an idiot. If SWTOR had been B2P, then EA would have lost millions upon millions of dollars. Lets just say I am not shocked you value his opinion....
As to developers... my son is also a developer. He comes to me for advice about MMOs. Developing is just a job-- a nice one, but that's all it is. No guarantee that they're any more knowledgeable about the ins and outs of MMOs than anyone else.
That comment makes no sense at all, if he is one he would know the ins and out alot more, i'm a gamer and then become DEV , I thought I knew it all as a gamer and realized real fast I didn't know jack shit.. I see the work that is put in to games and the time it takes and the bullshit we have to deal with.... Yes he should come to you with questions , like what do you like in a game etc , but no one person likes the same game, and it shouldn't be justa job to him, if thats the case he is in the wrong field.
Most gamer's turned DEVS do it because they love what they do and make what they make because they love it, work at a job you hate its the same if I hated a game I was working on , which I have AAA company and left, went to indies and have not turned back since.
And you develop what type of game exactly? There are a lot of sub-genres within the broad category of "games developer." Just because you know something about how one particular type is put together doesn't mean anything about your knowledge of genres you don't work in. It's like expecting a podiatrist to know about brain surgery.
The poster I was responding to just threw out the developer card to try to give some extra weight to his opinion. My response was directed at that.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
That may be because GW 2 is still selling copies and are rolling in it with box sales. No matter how great the game is they will need to start to rely on cash shops to keep going.
Ya, well I would think most people would take others opinions at face value. Even when someone has credentials and opinion is still only an opinion. However, when you start looking at statistics, is when you really should not take it as face value. Basically if someone states an opinion, but has some proof to back it up, is when a person should start considering that this person might be right.
As for B2P is a F2P variant? I guess if you really want to put it that way, that is fine. Just keep in mind that B2P, F2P, and P2P describes the business model, and not what the game feels like or plays like. Which is pretty much what I am trying to point out. You can say a B2P feels like a F2P that you paid a box price for, but you really can't say B2P is literally F2P. Saying B2P is a F2P variant is stating a fact, which makes you wrong. Saying a B2P feels like a F2P variant is an opinion. However, maybe I am just being too picky?
I personally have worked on an MMORPG in the past, not a very popular one and I only worked on it for a short period of time as a temp dev I suppose you could say. It's a free to play, 100%. No cash shop, no catches. Though the game sucks rofl. I stopped helping with development is it felt like it wasn't going any where. It's still in alpha and believe it's been over 20 years -.- It had a very mature player base, mostly all role players.
I try not to post any of the games I work on. It becomes to much of a hassle when people start asking question XD.
Though I can tell ya, I started off in the modding community. Mostly Half-Life and counter-strike mapping. Then of course started working on the source engine when half-life 2 was released. Eventually I decided to go to college. They teach a lot about every aspect of developing a game at the art institute. So I learned aspects of development that I personally don't even work in.
As for it being just a job for me? Naaa, I do it for fun. I made more money in my last profession in Telecommunications.
Being a game dev though is a lot more fun, and a lot less stressful. Just that makes it worth it.
Ugh, please no. No F2P game with a cash shop and a box price to boot.
If they do go the B2P route it better be in the form of no cash shop and DLC content.
Much rather have Box+Sub and nothing else to worry about.
My only fear these days is a p2p mmorpg going f2p...they typically kick you in the face if you were a past paid member and make you rebuy the game in the cash shop like with SWTOR...rather than thanking you for supporting tem in the past like TERA did.
Payment model is important to me for mmorpgs. Im fully a steam junky now, and floating around with games gets me distracted, having a sub keeps me grounded and into that one game.
With every f2p game any distraction is reason to stop playing and forget about the mmorpg (mostly because most single player games offer better content, though limited in content and playtime) but its very easy to just forget about that free mmo...not to mention the quality is always vastly lower (don't care about your counter arguments its an opinion)
So yeah Stick with Sub or B2P+DLC content like TES games currently do. No more of this GW2 crap item mall with a box price. Such a model seems to focus in on wallet raping early before people get bored and leave, such as what happened with Gw2 (heard they were down to only 4 servers which speaks volumes on retaining players)
Where is all this crap coming from...seriously.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/World
51 Servers and going to china soon....tired of this crap.
"As you read these words, a release is seven days or less away or has just happened within the last seven days those are now the only two states youll find the world of Tyria."...Guild Wars 2
he doesnt play the game. He just follow the "im so cool bro" hater fanclub wagon on the forums. Also look at his post, he doesnt want a B2P model with decent cash shop. But he totally wants a P2P with box price and cash shop. No sense at all.
This right here.
I think B2P allows for people to at least purchase your game.
P2P will always have to potential of simply being a 30day free trial. With B2P, if people hate your game at one point, they can always come back and check it out, making each significant patch a chance to rehook people.
And what hurts more is even if you are a great P2P game, you have to compete with other subscriptions, which doesn't make any sense to me.
In short, B2P allows the merits of the game to be the sole measure of retention after entry without need for a pay wall.
I really hope ESO does well, and I'm sure it will. I just feel that P2P is a huge risk with a huge reward, but an even bigger potential downfall.
"As you read these words, a release is seven days or less away or has just happened within the last seven days those are now the only two states youll find the world of Tyria."...Guild Wars 2
Why must this thread continue......it should of simply ended with this, the 4th post
I'll add to it really quick
- P2P usually has potential on doing good and having that money to make it even BETTER......toward an expansion maybe
- If 15 a month is that big of a deal to you or to much.....for shaaaame
One thing Blizzard did at the start of WOW was to allow skill respecs for ridiculously small amounts of game coin because they realized respecing was essential to game play.I remember the early days of DAoC, before WoW, and many were supremely pissed at the lack of respecs. Some people were like, "What the fuck is going on? This game is called Camelot and I'm a 50 Albion Armsman specced full Poleman and my spec is gimped? WTF? And worse, I cannot respec?"
And the idea of rerolling on DAoC was absurd since levelling to 50 was insanely difficult. My most memorable accomplishment ever in gaming is crystal clear, it was levelling my first level 50 in DAoC on Andred the PvP, FFA server. I remember when the server opened, it was like being in India: there was not one square inch of the map you could go without seeing other players, and on a FFA server that was nuts.
However, if someone wants a name change then, I agree, that's a different story. I have my personal collection of character names that I've built up over the years. They are original, rp, cool sounding, but most importantly, as unnoticeable as a tree in a forest. If some asshole choses a name like "Carebear" or "Legolaslol" and gets gang pk'd a thousand times, then maybe he or she SHOULD pay to have it changed.
I remember sitting in Wintergrasp one time on Tichondrius server in WoW watching some morons on Celestial Steed mounts, which could only be obtained by paying $25 at the cash shop. At the time I thought, "that's wild that someone could actually sell pixels that artistically didn't look that good, really they looked like shit, but sell probably hundreds for $25 each. That's crazy easy money." But never did I think Blizzard should not do it, I mean c'mon, it wasn't my fuckin game. Besides, it didn't affect my game experience one bit, imo all the in game mounts were better.
I would encourage Zen to make as much money as possible because I don't want GW2 patches with shit content, I want DAoC patches and WoW patches with real content. The last complete game M. Firor was associated with was DAoC so he definitely deserves this chance.
Statistics...that I would love to see and discuss. Especially with all the people in this and similar threads who assume P2P is a greedy cash grab decision.
The MMO revenue statistics I have seen published all indicate that there is more money being spent on F2P MMOs than P2P... like this report for example: http://www.newzoo.com/press-releases/free-to-play-mmo-game-spending-increases-24-to-1-2bn-dollar-in-u-s/
And that was based off 2011 numbers.
Then there's this statistic: The free-to-play model has driven Tera’s revenues up three-fold compared to its subscription era http://venturebeat.com/2013/03/20/tera-mmo-has-more-subscribers-as-a-free-to-play-game-than-when-it-required-a-subscription/
And this one: Since Star Wars: The Old Republic added a free-to-play option in November, monthly average revenue has doubled http://www.gamespot.com/news/the-old-republic-monthly-revenue-has-doubled-since-free-to-play-switch-6408053
I know, I know...companies play games with reports of MMO revenues and the F2P transition of an already declining game gives it a temporary boost. Still, there are all kinds of reports that seem to indicate that if maximizing profits is what you want, F2P is the way to go - not P2P. I'm sure $OE has done its market research and are going that route with EQN for the usual $OE reasons.
Matt Firor stated that the main reason for their decision to go P2P is immersion. Now, most opinionated cynical "experts" on Reddit dismiss that as propaganda... but just stop and think for a second, which is more immerssive, an in-game cash shop or the lack of one?
Why do we hate gold selling spammers in games? It's their half-assed marketing spam that fills up the chat and our mailbox... but F2P games all have official company spam... other than better English, how is it different from a spam and annoyance point of view?
So...bring on whatever statistics you have. Let's see if you can convince me that a) F2P is not more profitable and b) the in-game marketing is not annoying.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Actually, no, I agree with those statistics and never said I didn't lol.
F2P most certainly does earn a company more money. Heck, I think for the most part B2P would earn them more money as well. Which is why I think it's crazy they decided on P2P.
That has been my whole argument the entire time.
My other argument is that P2P is dead. The model sucks. You want a P2P game, but that model causes the game to go F2P eventually, so it defeats the entire purpose in my opinion.
The truth of the matter is, a newer model needs to be developed.
However, for the time being, I think the B2P model works and prevents the game ever going entirely F2P.
I know you haven't but "greedy cash grab" is the most common anti-P2P comment I see.
And to be honest, Wilodstar and ESO going the P2P route was also a surprise to me. I've seen the same trends and was fully expecting all 3, EQN, ESO and Wildstar to be B2P..the trend seemed inevitable.
But I'm actually glad they went this way and will stay this way for at least a couple of years--Rift, a good but predictable WOW clone lasted more than 2 years before making the switch - I can't see ESO transitioning faster unless it really sucks.
I just do not like to be marketed and sold at in subtle and not so subtle ways inside the game... hate it as a matter of fact. And I know, not all B2P or F2P games are equally blatant or have outrageous prices like Neverwinter does. But the little reminders are unavoidable even if rare.
Everything in the real world is "buy me!", "you need me!" who needs that crap in a fantasy game world?
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
ehhh ... I am going to be honest. I personally don't see it lasting over a year. I think it will go F2P by the end of 2014.