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Primals video

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  • TorcipTorcip Sterling Heights, MIPosts: 669Member
    I thought primals were the traditional summons from previous games. Was Behemoth a traditional summon, I'm pretty sure he was always just an enemy. Ah well, he's still badass and looks like a challenge.
  • twruletwrule Daly City, CAPosts: 1,251Member
    Pretty sure he was always just an enemy, but maybe they consider him a primal in this game.
  • SephirosoSephiroso Marietta, GAPosts: 1,160Member

    primals are primals. they're not merely summons or merely enemies. in ffxi and in fact MANY ff games previous, a summoner would come across a primal, best it in combat, and then be able to summon it. behemoth was often used as a summon that summoners could summon, most often at end-game level.

     

    in the online games however certain summons were deigned 'elder primal' and as such would obviously be to powerful in a player character's hands(also doesn't make much sense since there can only be 1 in existence) so they're relegated to raid boss-status.

     

    its honestly a shame ffxiv is hand holding so damn much. i loved that feature of summoners in ffxi. you had to traverse the world and beat the summons to be able to have the right to summon them in combat. now you just level up and automatically get a carbuncle(are there even any different summons or is it just multi-color carbuncles) and thats all she wrote...

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  • RoinRoin Baltimore, MDPosts: 2,927Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Sephiroso

    primals are primals. they're not merely summons or merely enemies. in ffxi and in fact MANY ff games previous, a summoner would come across a primal, best it in combat, and then be able to summon it. behemoth was often used as a summon that summoners could summon, most often at end-game level.

     

    in the online games however certain summons were deigned 'elder primal' and as such would obviously be to powerful in a player character's hands(also doesn't make much sense since there can only be 1 in existence) so they're relegated to raid boss-status.

     

    its honestly a shame ffxiv is hand holding so damn much. i loved that feature of summoners in ffxi. you had to traverse the world and beat the summons to be able to have the right to summon them in combat. now you just level up and automatically get a carbuncle(are there even any different summons or is it just multi-color carbuncles) and thats all she wrote...

    It's not really hand holding. You are trying to imprint one game worlds rules on another. I love FFXI as much as anyone. There are plenty of things I would love to see from FFXI in FFXIV. But honestly at this point. I'd rather FFXIV just be FFXIV, and not FFXI wrapped in FFXIV.

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  • GormogonGormogon Waukegan, ILPosts: 188Member Uncommon

    Rundown of Behemoth(s) appearing in Final Fantasy games here:

     

    http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Behemoth

  • TorcipTorcip Sterling Heights, MIPosts: 669Member
    Originally posted by Sephiroso

    primals are primals. they're not merely summons or merely enemies. in ffxi and in fact MANY ff games previous, a summoner would come across a primal, best it in combat, and then be able to summon it. behemoth was often used as a summon that summoners could summon, most often at end-game level.

     

    in the online games however certain summons were deigned 'elder primal' and as such would obviously be to powerful in a player character's hands(also doesn't make much sense since there can only be 1 in existence) so they're relegated to raid boss-status.

     

    its honestly a shame ffxiv is hand holding so damn much. i loved that feature of summoners in ffxi. you had to traverse the world and beat the summons to be able to have the right to summon them in combat. now you just level up and automatically get a carbuncle(are there even any different summons or is it just multi-color carbuncles) and thats all she wrote...

    Summoners get different summons, but only aspects.  The actual primal summons are supposed to be reserved for free companies who managed to kill it, not sure really how ti works but I know Summoners don't actually summon primals.

    Besides, the carbuncle was a default summon obtained when getting summoner job, so it's no different there.  And also, we have no idea how Summoners get their new summons. They could have to do quests just like how Arcanists have to do a quest to get their topaz carbuncle. And Behemoth was never a summon in FFXI, unless it happened after I knew about it.

    http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Summoner

  • twruletwrule Daly City, CAPosts: 1,251Member
    Originally posted by Sephiroso

    primals are primals. they're not merely summons or merely enemies. in ffxi and in fact MANY ff games previous, a summoner would come across a primal, best it in combat, and then be able to summon it. behemoth was often used as a summon that summoners could summon, most often at end-game level.

     Pretty sure XIV is the first time the title 'primals' has been used for them, unless I missed something from an earlier game...and I've never seen Behemoth as a summon in any previous FF game, certainly not in FFXI, so I am not sure what you're talking about here...

    Apparently the only time he appears as a summon was in the Crystal Chronicles spin-off series. 

    http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Behemoth

    in the online games however certain summons were deigned 'elder primal' and as such would obviously be to powerful in a player character's hands(also doesn't make much sense since there can only be 1 in existence) so they're relegated to raid boss-status.

    In FFXI they were called 'Avatars' - elder primal is a new designation and so far only applies to Bahamut and I believe Midgardsormer. There can only be one of any primal in existence at a time, not just the elder primals, but as far as I can see there is nothing stopping the elder primals from regenerating if they are offered enough aether, just like the lesser primals do. 

    its honestly a shame ffxiv is hand holding so damn much. i loved that feature of summoners in ffxi. you had to traverse the world and beat the summons to be able to have the right to summon them in combat. now you just level up and automatically get a carbuncle(are there even any different summons or is it just multi-color carbuncles) and thats all she wrote...

    Lol what are you talking about - you got Carbuncle automatically as a level 1 summoner in FFXI; bad example. But yes, as far as I know you get 'EGI' of the other summons if you are a summoner (kind of like shadows of Ifrit or what not) by leveling up and some of them (or all of them, not sure) via class quests. So it's really not that different, you just can't go around getting them all at level 1, and the quests are probably less tedious. Scholar gets a fairy summon.

     

  • SephirosoSephiroso Marietta, GAPosts: 1,160Member
    Originally posted by Roin
    Originally posted by Sephiroso

    primals are primals. they're not merely summons or merely enemies. in ffxi and in fact MANY ff games previous, a summoner would come across a primal, best it in combat, and then be able to summon it. behemoth was often used as a summon that summoners could summon, most often at end-game level.

     

    in the online games however certain summons were deigned 'elder primal' and as such would obviously be to powerful in a player character's hands(also doesn't make much sense since there can only be 1 in existence) so they're relegated to raid boss-status.

     

    its honestly a shame ffxiv is hand holding so damn much. i loved that feature of summoners in ffxi. you had to traverse the world and beat the summons to be able to have the right to summon them in combat. now you just level up and automatically get a carbuncle(are there even any different summons or is it just multi-color carbuncles) and thats all she wrote...

    It's not really hand holding. You are trying to imprint one game worlds rules on another. I love FFXI as much as anyone. There are plenty of things I would love to see from FFXI in FFXIV. But honestly at this point. I'd rather FFXIV just be FFXIV, and not FFXI wrapped in FFXIV.

    look im not bashing ffxiv but to say its not handholding is just being ignorant. it is handholding. go back and play through any final fantasy game, the majority if not ALL final fantasy games, the summoner class had to best their summons in combat before they were allowed to summon them. it makes sense from a lore/gameplay wise aspect as well which is just a bonus.

     

    Final Fantasy 10 - Yuna had to go to the temples and fight the summons before she could summon them.

     

    Final Fantasy 9 - You had to go around and beat the summons before you could summon them.

     

    Final Fantasy 11- Summoners had to go around and through a quest also beat their summons to be able to summon them.

     

    Pretty much every FF game you had to go through this process. This is a Final Fantasy game so please don't give me that line about "you're trying to imprint another game worlds' rules onto FFXIV. It's the same series, the same general feel. The only thing thats differen't is this latest iteration is strong with needless hand holding. I'm not saying im not gonna play it, cause i am, but to say it isn't hand holding is to be ignorant.

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  • twruletwrule Daly City, CAPosts: 1,251Member
    Originally posted by Sephiroso
     The only thing thats differen't is this latest iteration is strong with needless hand holding. I'm not saying im not gonna play it, cause i am, but to say it isn't hand holding is to be ignorant.

    Firstly, you don't get to summon the original 'primals' or whatever you want to call them, in this game, where as in the previous games you did, you only get to summon aspects of them.

    Secondly, no one says there won't be class quests to unlock most of them.

    Thirdly, your personal evaluation is not fact and therefore to disagree with it is not 'ignorance'.

  • SephirosoSephiroso Marietta, GAPosts: 1,160Member
    Originally posted by twrule
    Originally posted by Sephiroso

    primals are primals. they're not merely summons or merely enemies. in ffxi and in fact MANY ff games previous, a summoner would come across a primal, best it in combat, and then be able to summon it. behemoth was often used as a summon that summoners could summon, most often at end-game level.

     Pretty sure XIV is the first time the title 'primals' has been used for them, unless I missed something from an earlier game...and I've never seen Behemoth as a summon in any previous FF game, certainly not in FFXI, so I am not sure what you're talking about here...

    Apparently the only time he appears as a summon was in the Crystal Chronicles spin-off series. 

    http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Behemoth

    in the online games however certain summons were deigned 'elder primal' and as such would obviously be to powerful in a player character's hands(also doesn't make much sense since there can only be 1 in existence) so they're relegated to raid boss-status.

    In FFXI they were called 'Avatars' - elder primal is a new designation and so far only applies to Bahamut and I believe Midgardsormer. There can only be one of any primal in existence at a time, not just the elder primals, but as far as I can see there is nothing stopping the elder primals from regenerating if they are offered enough aether, just like the lesser primals do. 

    its honestly a shame ffxiv is hand holding so damn much. i loved that feature of summoners in ffxi. you had to traverse the world and beat the summons to be able to have the right to summon them in combat. now you just level up and automatically get a carbuncle(are there even any different summons or is it just multi-color carbuncles) and thats all she wrote...

    Lol what are you talking about - you got Carbuncle automatically as a level 1 summoner in FFXI; bad example. But yes, as far as I know you get 'EGI' of the other summons if you are a summoner (kind of like shadows of Ifrit or what not) by leveling up and some of them (or all of them, not sure) via class quests. So it's really not that different, you just can't go around getting them all at level 1, and the quests are probably less tedious. Scholar gets a fairy summon.

     

    I don't really care if FFXIV is the first time they've called summons primals. Whether is primals, espers, summons, we all know what the fuck it is we're talking about, and that's the pets that a summoner uses to do battle with. HOWEVER, i actually just realized i've been confusing Behemoth with Bahamut, i apologize.

     

    Also yes, summoners got a carbuncle at level 1, so what? they have to start with something. That's understandable. But for every other summon that a summoner used in FFXI, they had to do battle with the summons in order to control/use them. Every single other FF game(at least every single one that i've played) you had to go through this process to collect a summoner's summons. But not in FFXIV.

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  • SephirosoSephiroso Marietta, GAPosts: 1,160Member
    Originally posted by twrule
    Originally posted by Sephiroso
     The only thing thats differen't is this latest iteration is strong with needless hand holding. I'm not saying im not gonna play it, cause i am, but to say it isn't hand holding is to be ignorant.

    Firstly, you don't get to summon the original 'primals' or whatever you want to call them, in this game, where as in the previous games you did, you only get to summon aspects of them.

    Secondly, no one says there won't be class quests to unlock most of them.

    Thirdly, your personal evaluation is not fact and therefore to disagree with it is not 'ignorance'.

    I never said anything about you summoning the 'original primals' in this game. I was saying you could in previous games(i was referencing the single player games for the most part cause in those games...its a single player game so it makes sense) it doesn't however make sense that every single player character can go around summoning Bahamut or Ifrit etc thus the avatars which aren't anywhere near as powerful as the actual Ifrit/Shiva/etc in FFXI.

     

    Yea, i get there will be class quests, but you miss my major point in that you don't do battle with the summons to gain mastery/control over them like you have in pretty much every previous iteration of final fantasy summoner class had to do.

     

    whether you want to be willfully ignorant is your own perogative, this game has plenty of hand holding, not limited to the summoner's just getting summons handed to them, and the soul crystal feature of the advanced 'jobs'

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  • TorcipTorcip Sterling Heights, MIPosts: 669Member
    Originally posted by Sephiroso

    I don't really care if FFXIV is the first time they've called summons primals. Whether is primals, espers, summons, we all know what the fuck it is we're talking about, and that's the pets that a summoner uses to do battle with. HOWEVER, i actually just realized i've been confusing Behemoth with Bahamut, i apologize.

     

    Also yes, summoners got a carbuncle at level 1, so what? they have to start with something. That's understandable. But for every other summon that a summoner used in FFXI, they had to do battle with the summons in order to control/use them. Every single other FF game(at least every single one that i've played) you had to go through this process to collect a summoner's summons. But not in FFXIV.

    Summoners do not summon primals in FFXIV, they summon Egis. It is currently unknown how summoners get Egis but if I were to guess they would be through quests just like FFXI where you have to fight a 4 man version of the primal. Primals in FFXIV have been said to be summonable by a free company after having defeated it. So what you are saying is incorrect as far as we know, stop being difficult. 

    You've managed to derail this thread from the lore of primals to how the game personally dissappoints you, please stop.

  • SephirosoSephiroso Marietta, GAPosts: 1,160Member
    Originally posted by Torcip
    Originally posted by Sephiroso

    I don't really care if FFXIV is the first time they've called summons primals. Whether is primals, espers, summons, we all know what the fuck it is we're talking about, and that's the pets that a summoner uses to do battle with. HOWEVER, i actually just realized i've been confusing Behemoth with Bahamut, i apologize.

     

    Also yes, summoners got a carbuncle at level 1, so what? they have to start with something. That's understandable. But for every other summon that a summoner used in FFXI, they had to do battle with the summons in order to control/use them. Every single other FF game(at least every single one that i've played) you had to go through this process to collect a summoner's summons. But not in FFXIV.

    Summoners do not summon primals in FFXIV, they summon Egis. It is currently unknown how summoners get Egis but if I were to guess they would be through quests just like FFXI where you have to fight a 4 man version of the primal. Primals in FFXIV have been said to be summonable by a free company after having defeated it. So what you are saying is incorrect as far as we know, stop being difficult.

    ok, so i used the politically incorrect term for summons in FFXIV. just replace where i said summoners summoning primals with the word Egis and there you go.

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  • TorcipTorcip Sterling Heights, MIPosts: 669Member
    Originally posted by Sephiroso
    Originally posted by Torcip
    Originally posted by Sephiroso

    I don't really care if FFXIV is the first time they've called summons primals. Whether is primals, espers, summons, we all know what the fuck it is we're talking about, and that's the pets that a summoner uses to do battle with. HOWEVER, i actually just realized i've been confusing Behemoth with Bahamut, i apologize.

     

    Also yes, summoners got a carbuncle at level 1, so what? they have to start with something. That's understandable. But for every other summon that a summoner used in FFXI, they had to do battle with the summons in order to control/use them. Every single other FF game(at least every single one that i've played) you had to go through this process to collect a summoner's summons. But not in FFXIV.

    Summoners do not summon primals in FFXIV, they summon Egis. It is currently unknown how summoners get Egis but if I were to guess they would be through quests just like FFXI where you have to fight a 4 man version of the primal. Primals in FFXIV have been said to be summonable by a free company after having defeated it. So what you are saying is incorrect as far as we know, stop being difficult.

    ok, so i used the politically incorrect term for summons in FFXIV. just replace where i said summoners summoning primals with the word Egis and there you go.

    No because that's incorrect, Egis are just representations of the primals. The primals are still summonable by free companies, from what we've been told.

  • twruletwrule Daly City, CAPosts: 1,251Member
    Originally posted by Sephiroso
    Originally posted by Torcip
    Originally posted by Sephiroso

    I don't really care if FFXIV is the first time they've called summons primals. Whether is primals, espers, summons, we all know what the fuck it is we're talking about, and that's the pets that a summoner uses to do battle with. HOWEVER, i actually just realized i've been confusing Behemoth with Bahamut, i apologize.

     

    Also yes, summoners got a carbuncle at level 1, so what? they have to start with something. That's understandable. But for every other summon that a summoner used in FFXI, they had to do battle with the summons in order to control/use them. Every single other FF game(at least every single one that i've played) you had to go through this process to collect a summoner's summons. But not in FFXIV.

    Summoners do not summon primals in FFXIV, they summon Egis. It is currently unknown how summoners get Egis but if I were to guess they would be through quests just like FFXI where you have to fight a 4 man version of the primal. Primals in FFXIV have been said to be summonable by a free company after having defeated it. So what you are saying is incorrect as far as we know, stop being difficult.

    ok, so i used the politically incorrect term for summons in FFXIV. just replace where i said summoners summoning primals with the word Egis and there you go.

    No, they are completely different types of beings, not just in name - that's what we've been trying to tell you.

    And we don't know whether we will have to fight the EGI's to gain control over them, so stop using that as a point against the game.

  • SephirosoSephiroso Marietta, GAPosts: 1,160Member
    Originally posted by Torcip
    Originally posted by Sephiroso
    Originally posted by Torcip
    Originally posted by Sephiroso

    I don't really care if FFXIV is the first time they've called summons primals. Whether is primals, espers, summons, we all know what the fuck it is we're talking about, and that's the pets that a summoner uses to do battle with. HOWEVER, i actually just realized i've been confusing Behemoth with Bahamut, i apologize.

     

    Also yes, summoners got a carbuncle at level 1, so what? they have to start with something. That's understandable. But for every other summon that a summoner used in FFXI, they had to do battle with the summons in order to control/use them. Every single other FF game(at least every single one that i've played) you had to go through this process to collect a summoner's summons. But not in FFXIV.

    Summoners do not summon primals in FFXIV, they summon Egis. It is currently unknown how summoners get Egis but if I were to guess they would be through quests just like FFXI where you have to fight a 4 man version of the primal. Primals in FFXIV have been said to be summonable by a free company after having defeated it. So what you are saying is incorrect as far as we know, stop being difficult.

    ok, so i used the politically incorrect term for summons in FFXIV. just replace where i said summoners summoning primals with the word Egis and there you go.

    No because that's incorrect, Egis are just representations of the primals. The primals are still summonable by free companies, from what we've been told.

    you're still missing the entire point of my post in the first place. and that's the hand holding that ffxiv has going on. nothing to do with if we can summon the actual primals or not

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  • TorcipTorcip Sterling Heights, MIPosts: 669Member
    Originally posted by Sephiroso
    Originally posted by Torcip
    Originally posted by Sephiroso
    Originally posted by Torcip
    Originally posted by Sephiroso

    I don't really care if FFXIV is the first time they've called summons primals. Whether is primals, espers, summons, we all know what the fuck it is we're talking about, and that's the pets that a summoner uses to do battle with. HOWEVER, i actually just realized i've been confusing Behemoth with Bahamut, i apologize.

     

    Also yes, summoners got a carbuncle at level 1, so what? they have to start with something. That's understandable. But for every other summon that a summoner used in FFXI, they had to do battle with the summons in order to control/use them. Every single other FF game(at least every single one that i've played) you had to go through this process to collect a summoner's summons. But not in FFXIV.

    Summoners do not summon primals in FFXIV, they summon Egis. It is currently unknown how summoners get Egis but if I were to guess they would be through quests just like FFXI where you have to fight a 4 man version of the primal. Primals in FFXIV have been said to be summonable by a free company after having defeated it. So what you are saying is incorrect as far as we know, stop being difficult.

    ok, so i used the politically incorrect term for summons in FFXIV. just replace where i said summoners summoning primals with the word Egis and there you go.

    No because that's incorrect, Egis are just representations of the primals. The primals are still summonable by free companies, from what we've been told.

    you're still missing the entire point of my post in the first place. and that's the hand holding that ffxiv has going on. nothing to do with if we can summon the actual primals or not

    You're post was about hand holding due to being just given summons as you level.  We've told you that that is incorrect, we do not know how Summoners get their egis, and we do know that when primals can be summoned they must be defeated by a guild.  If that was what your post was not about then correct me because that's what we have been arguing.

    If you have another reason for saying FFXIV has hand holding, put it in a different thread, this one is about primals.

  • twruletwrule Daly City, CAPosts: 1,251Member
    Originally posted by Sephiroso

    you're still missing the entire point of my post in the first place. and that's the hand holding that ffxiv has going on. nothing to do with if we can summon the actual primals or not

    So you don't actually want to talk about the primals at all, you just want to bash the game for perceived 'hand-holding'. Start a new thread if you must, this is not relevant to the topic of this thread.

  • SephirosoSephiroso Marietta, GAPosts: 1,160Member

    Originally posted by Torcip

    Originally posted by Sephiroso
    Originally posted by Torcip
    Originally posted by Sephiroso
    Originally posted by Torcip
    Originally posted by Sephiroso

    I don't really care if FFXIV is the first time they've called summons primals. Whether is primals, espers, summons, we all know what the fuck it is we're talking about, and that's the pets that a summoner uses to do battle with. HOWEVER, i actually just realized i've been confusing Behemoth with Bahamut, i apologize.

     

    Also yes, summoners got a carbuncle at level 1, so what? they have to start with something. That's understandable. But for every other summon that a summoner used in FFXI, they had to do battle with the summons in order to control/use them. Every single other FF game(at least every single one that i've played) you had to go through this process to collect a summoner's summons. But not in FFXIV.

    Summoners do not summon primals in FFXIV, they summon Egis. It is currently unknown how summoners get Egis but if I were to guess they would be through quests just like FFXI where you have to fight a 4 man version of the primal. Primals in FFXIV have been said to be summonable by a free company after having defeated it. So what you are saying is incorrect as far as we know, stop being difficult.

    ok, so i used the politically incorrect term for summons in FFXIV. just replace where i said summoners summoning primals with the word Egis and there you go.

    No because that's incorrect, Egis are just representations of the primals. The primals are still summonable by free companies, from what we've been told.

    you're still missing the entire point of my post in the first place. and that's the hand holding that ffxiv has going on. nothing to do with if we can summon the actual primals or not

    You're post was about hand holding due to being just given summons as you level.  We've told you that that is incorrect, we do not know how Summoners get their egis, and we do know that when primals can be summoned they must be defeated by a guild.  If that was what your post was not about then correct me because that's what we have been arguing.

    If you have another reason for saying FFXIV has hand holding, put it in a different thread, this one is about primals.

    how is it incorrect to say that arcanists are given their summons as we level? all we do is an easy class quest(that every single class has to do their own unique class quest) and you get rewarded with summon just like you get rewarded with some every other quest reward.

     

    go back to ffxi and any other final fantasy game and you see the mechanic when you have summoners, they have to defeat the summons before they're able to summon it. that's as true to the final fantasy world as it is Fire, Fira, and Firaga spells or Whitemage/Blackmage/etcetc classes.

     

    Initially i misused the word primals. In my mind it was as such, Primals = Summons. Elder primals = things like Ifrit where you obviously wouldn't have every single player character who was an arcanist able to summon such beings cause that would be stupid. Lesser primals = things like Carbuncle. In reality, Primals = things like Ifrit, and Egis = things like Carbuncle. I get that Free Companies will be able to defeat/summon the elder primals but that wasn't even the gist of my main point. It was my fault for not getting that through correctly from the beginning.

    Originally posted by twrule

    Originally posted by Sephiroso

    you're still missing the entire point of my post in the first place. and that's the hand holding that ffxiv has going on. nothing to do with if we can summon the actual primals or not

    So you don't actually want to talk about the primals at all, you just want to bash the game for perceived 'hand-holding'. Start a new thread if you must, this is not relevant to the topic of this thread.

    Re-read my first post. I'm not bashing the game. The game is hand-holding whether you want to call it that or not. My point had everything to do with the summons in the game thus i posted here, it was just my misunderstanding in calling carbuncle a primal(in my mind i viewd summons like carbuncle as lesser primals, and boss-greater summons like ifrit as elder primals.)

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  • twruletwrule Daly City, CAPosts: 1,251Member
    Originally posted by Sephiroso

    Re-read my first post. I'm not bashing the game. The game is hand-holding whether you want to call it that or not.

    I don't want to call it that, because I don't see it that way - whatever it is that you consider 'hand-holding'; and that rhetoric obviously has negative connotations, not to mention in your first post that you call it 'a shame'. In any case, this was hardly relevant to the thread topic.

    My point had everything to do with the summons in the game thus i posted here, it was just my misunderstanding in calling carbuncle a primal(in my mind i viewd summons like carbuncle as lesser primals, and boss-greater summons like ifrit as elder primals.)

    Your main point in your first post, as I understand it, was that XIV is 'hand-holding' because you supposedly don't have to go out and fight the summons to earn them as a summoner. But, as I've already pointed out, that is a baseless argument, because we don't actually know how you get the summoner summons. Perhaps you do fight the EGI to get them.

    Even if you don't fight them, that does not automatically make it 'hand-holding' as if the standard was always that you must fight each lesser pet you could summon. Hell, in a lot of FF games, many of the summons are outright handed to you. Was FF6 'hand-holding'? FF Tactics? And those were greater-level summons than what the XIV summoner can call. If you think of his abilities as more like conjuring an elemental, then there would be even less lore expectation that some fight or major trial needs to happen.

     

  • SephirosoSephiroso Marietta, GAPosts: 1,160Member
    Originally posted by twrule
    Originally posted by Sephiroso

    Re-read my first post. I'm not bashing the game. The game is hand-holding whether you want to call it that or not.

    I don't want to call it that, because I don't see it that way - whatever it is that you consider 'hand-holding'; and that rhetoric obviously has negative connotations, not to mention in your first post that you call it 'a shame'. In any case, this was hardly relevant to the thread topic.

    My point had everything to do with the summons in the game thus i posted here, it was just my misunderstanding in calling carbuncle a primal(in my mind i viewd summons like carbuncle as lesser primals, and boss-greater summons like ifrit as elder primals.)

    Your main point in your first post, as I understand it, was that XIV is 'hand-holding' because you supposedly don't have to go out and fight the summons to earn them as a summoner. But, as I've already pointed out, that is a baseless argument, because we don't actually know how you get the summoner summons. Perhaps you do fight the EGI to get them.

    Even if you don't fight them, that does not automatically make it 'hand-holding' as if the standard was always that you must fight each lesser pet you could summon. Hell, in a lot of FF games, many of the summons are outright handed to you. Was FF6 'hand-holding'? FF Tactics? And those were greater-level summons than what the XIV summoner can call. If you think of his abilities as more like conjuring an elemental, then there would be even less lore expectation that some fight or major trial needs to happen.

     

    FF3(first ff game to have summoner class) lower level summons were purchased in shops but higher level summons you had to go out and battle to control and summon them.

     

    FF4- the summons were found as enemy/boss drops and you could summon them.(lost access temporarily to summon some due to story reasons but yea)

     

    FF5 - Same as FF3, the lesser summons like carbuncle bought in shops, the main others were defeated in battle to summon them.

     

    FF6 - You went out to fight the summons(called espers this time) and they dropped magicite which allowed you to equip and summon them, though anyone could equip them and thus summon them.

     

    FF7- Same as FF6 except  instead of 'magicite' you got their 'materia'

     

    FF8- I didn't play this so idk

     

    FF9- Eidolons, they had to be learned from special gems that the summoner would equip and over the course of many battles they'd gain enough ability points with the summon that they would master it and be able to use the summons without having the gemstone equipped.

     

    FF10-Who can forget ff10, had to go around the temples and defeat the aeons so yuna could summon them.

     

    FF11- Every single avatar(i was corrected on the correct term in this course of this thread) that a summoner could summon bar Carbuncle you had to defeat in battle to summon them.

     

    FF12- Again, you had to defeat the espers in battle in order for the party(wasn't a single summoner class) to summon it.

     

    FF13-The Eidolons would appear i believe at plot-related times and you had to defeat them to be order to summon them(though again wasn't any 1 summoner class in this game)

     

    What does this show? Aside from a couple games where yes you could buy the lesser summons(i.e. carbuncle) from shops, you had to go out and defeat summons to be able to have the right to summon them. This has been the case in every single iteration of Final Fantasy that has had Summons in them bar 1, FF9, because you learned summons from gems that you could find anywhere.

     

    How I can say for certain that the trend of leveling up and getting handed our summons through class quest(that we would do regardless if we got a new summon from it or not) will continue? Topaz and Emerald Carbuncle may indeed be the same Carbuncle. But they are two entirely different summons.

     

    Topaz is a tank. Emerald is a caster(thus dps). Following this line of thought the next summon arcanist gets is either going to be another gem Carbuncle thats going to be relegated to support/control duty, or it will be a new summon but regardless, it's going to be given to us through class quest.

     

    We are not going to have to go out and search for them and defeat them in a hard fought battle that gave you a sense of accomplishment(and made fucking sense from a logical stand point).

     

    Us learning the Topaz carbuncle is the equivalent of us going to our guild master and her saying, Oh hey, i found this little stray bugger running around and he needs a new owner, be a doll and take good care of it okay?

     

     

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  • twruletwrule Daly City, CAPosts: 1,251Member
    Originally posted by Sephiroso

    What does this show? Aside from a couple games where yes you could buy the lesser summons(i.e. carbuncle) from shops, you had to go out and defeat summons to be able to have the right to summon them. This has been the case in every single iteration of Final Fantasy that has had Summons in them bar 1, FF9, because you learned summons from gems that you could find anywhere.

    In FF6 they literally handed you most of the magicite for most of the summons as you progressed through the game - you fought a small handful of them in not particularly difficult fights, as part of that story. In FF Tactics, you purchased all the summons with skill points that you got just by entering many battles with Summoner as your job, and you could save up to buy the biggest baddest summon you wanted first, if you were so inclined.

    I don't even know why we are arguing this, because every FF title reserves the right to be different, and has usually exercised that right with most things. There is no unbreakable or unbroken rule or precedent that you must fight the summons in every game in order to be able to use them.

    You know what else is different here? The summons are against you. Unlike the other games, they won't agree to give you their power just because you defeated them. If anything, the summoners in XIV are either mimicking or forcibly wresting small portions of the power of the primals, which would be fine in the lore to do from anywhere.

    How I can say for certain that the trend of leveling up and getting handed our summons through class quest(that we would do regardless if we got a new summon from it or not) will continue? Topaz and Emerald Carbuncle may indeed be the same Carbuncle. But they are two entirely different summons.

    Topaz is a tank. Emerald is a caster(thus dps). Following this line of thought the next summon arcanist gets is either going to be another gem Carbuncle thats going to be relegated to support/control duty, or it will be a new summon but regardless, it's going to be given to us through class quest.

    We are not going to have to go out and search for them and defeat them in a hard fought battle that gave you a sense of accomplishment(and made fucking sense from a logical stand point).

     I didn't follow that convoluted line of thought (and it sounds like you haven't even looked at the arcanist/summoner abilities), but let's say that it is through a class quest. How does that show we won't fight them, or that there won't be some kind of trial? You're assuming the class quests do not consist of such a trial. Why wouldn't it feel like an accomplishment to have gotten to that level and completed the class quest?

    Us learning the Topaz carbuncle is the equivalent of us going to our guild master and her saying, Oh hey, i found this little stray bugger running around and he needs a new owner, be a doll and take good care of it okay?

     I thought we covered that we were talking about higher summons here, not Carbuncle - at least, your argument hinges on that being the case...who says the other class/job quests are like that? And btw, even the early class quests when they are teaching you how to use a new summon like Topaz carbuncle are not exactly without challenge.

     

  • SephirosoSephiroso Marietta, GAPosts: 1,160Member
    Originally posted by twrule
    Originally posted by Sephiroso

    What does this show? Aside from a couple games where yes you could buy the lesser summons(i.e. carbuncle) from shops, you had to go out and defeat summons to be able to have the right to summon them. This has been the case in every single iteration of Final Fantasy that has had Summons in them bar 1, FF9, because you learned summons from gems that you could find anywhere.

    In FF6 they literally handed you most of the magicite for most of the summons as you progressed through the game - you fought a small handful of them in not particularly difficult fights, as part of that story. In FF Tactics, you purchased all the summons with skill points that you got just by entering many battles with Summoner as your job, and you could save up to buy the biggest baddest summon you wanted first, if you were so inclined.

    I don't even know why we are arguing this, because every FF title reserves the right to be different, and has usually exercised that right with most things. There is no unbreakable or unbroken rule or precedent that you must fight the summons in every game in order to be able to use them.

    You know what else is different here? The summons are against you. Unlike the other games, they won't agree to give you their power just because you defeated them. If anything, the summoners in XIV are either mimicking or forcibly wresting small portions of the power of the primals, which would be fine in the lore to do from anywhere.

    How I can say for certain that the trend of leveling up and getting handed our summons through class quest(that we would do regardless if we got a new summon from it or not) will continue? Topaz and Emerald Carbuncle may indeed be the same Carbuncle. But they are two entirely different summons.

    Topaz is a tank. Emerald is a caster(thus dps). Following this line of thought the next summon arcanist gets is either going to be another gem Carbuncle thats going to be relegated to support/control duty, or it will be a new summon but regardless, it's going to be given to us through class quest.

    We are not going to have to go out and search for them and defeat them in a hard fought battle that gave you a sense of accomplishment(and made fucking sense from a logical stand point).

     I didn't follow that convoluted line of thought (and it sounds like you haven't even looked at the arcanist/summoner abilities), but let's say that it is through a class quest. How does that show we won't fight them, or that there won't be some kind of trial? You're assuming the class quests do not consist of such a trial. Why wouldn't it feel like an accomplishment to have gotten to that level and completed the class quest?

    Us learning the Topaz carbuncle is the equivalent of us going to our guild master and her saying, Oh hey, i found this little stray bugger running around and he needs a new owner, be a doll and take good care of it okay?

     I thought we covered that we were talking about higher summons here, not Carbuncle - at least, your argument hinges on that being the case...who says the other class/job quests are like that? And btw, even the early class quests when they are teaching you how to use a new summon like Topaz carbuncle are not exactly without challenge.

     

    The summons in those games are definitely not necessarily against you. Take the aeons in FF10, the summoners just had to prove they were strong enough to command the aeons otherwise why should they give their strength to the summoner? This is how it was for pretty much all the games where you defeat the summons to control them.

     

    FF tactics is a different kind of rpg all together aside from the pure RPG FF games which is why i didn't even list it, even the mmorpgs ffxi/ffxiv fit in line with them because they are first and foremost an rpg, just they're online and have a lot of players in them. But alas i'll give you that, you raised the number of FF games that didn't require you to battle for the summons outside the initial low lvl ones up to the number of 2. Grats.

     

    You may call that a convoluted thought but fact remains. Topaz and Emerald Carbuncle are for all thoughts and purposes different summons. Starting with Emerald Carbuncle i have no qualms with that. Receiving Topaz Carbuncle from class quest shows we will recieve the rest of our summons from class quests. There is no question to that.

     

    Its like WoW. Emerald Carbuncle = Imp. Topaz Carbuncle = Voidwalker. (next summon you got was succubus, which is why im pretty sure next summon we get will be a control-type summon and if it ocntinues to follow the theme, its going to be another color carbuncle but its a 50/50 that it'll be that or a diff type of summon, but whats almost 100% assured is it will just be given to us from class quest regardless.

     

    If FFXIV was gonna follow the idea of we have to work for our summons, then we would have had to defeat the Topaz Carbuncle first and not just get it as a quest reward. I didn't say anything about higher summons only being the ones that you have to defeat. I said summons in general. Every single summon in FFX you had to defeat to obtain, every summon in FFXI (aside from starting with carbuncle) you had to defeat in order to obtain. I showed that this theme has been a central theme of FF ever since Final Fantasy 3 and the only game that didn't follow this mold was FF9.(And Tactics as you pointed out)

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  • twruletwrule Daly City, CAPosts: 1,251Member
    Originally posted by Sephiroso
    Originally posted by twrule
    Originally posted by Sephiroso

    What does this show? Aside from a couple games where yes you could buy the lesser summons(i.e. carbuncle) from shops, you had to go out and defeat summons to be able to have the right to summon them. This has been the case in every single iteration of Final Fantasy that has had Summons in them bar 1, FF9, because you learned summons from gems that you could find anywhere.

    In FF6 they literally handed you most of the magicite for most of the summons as you progressed through the game - you fought a small handful of them in not particularly difficult fights, as part of that story. In FF Tactics, you purchased all the summons with skill points that you got just by entering many battles with Summoner as your job, and you could save up to buy the biggest baddest summon you wanted first, if you were so inclined.

    I don't even know why we are arguing this, because every FF title reserves the right to be different, and has usually exercised that right with most things. There is no unbreakable or unbroken rule or precedent that you must fight the summons in every game in order to be able to use them.

    You know what else is different here? The summons are against you. Unlike the other games, they won't agree to give you their power just because you defeated them. If anything, the summoners in XIV are either mimicking or forcibly wresting small portions of the power of the primals, which would be fine in the lore to do from anywhere.

    How I can say for certain that the trend of leveling up and getting handed our summons through class quest(that we would do regardless if we got a new summon from it or not) will continue? Topaz and Emerald Carbuncle may indeed be the same Carbuncle. But they are two entirely different summons.

    Topaz is a tank. Emerald is a caster(thus dps). Following this line of thought the next summon arcanist gets is either going to be another gem Carbuncle thats going to be relegated to support/control duty, or it will be a new summon but regardless, it's going to be given to us through class quest.

    We are not going to have to go out and search for them and defeat them in a hard fought battle that gave you a sense of accomplishment(and made fucking sense from a logical stand point).

     I didn't follow that convoluted line of thought (and it sounds like you haven't even looked at the arcanist/summoner abilities), but let's say that it is through a class quest. How does that show we won't fight them, or that there won't be some kind of trial? You're assuming the class quests do not consist of such a trial. Why wouldn't it feel like an accomplishment to have gotten to that level and completed the class quest?

    Us learning the Topaz carbuncle is the equivalent of us going to our guild master and her saying, Oh hey, i found this little stray bugger running around and he needs a new owner, be a doll and take good care of it okay?

     I thought we covered that we were talking about higher summons here, not Carbuncle - at least, your argument hinges on that being the case...who says the other class/job quests are like that? And btw, even the early class quests when they are teaching you how to use a new summon like Topaz carbuncle are not exactly without challenge.

     

    The summons in those games are definitely not necessarily against you. Take the aeons in FF10, the summoners just had to prove they were strong enough to command the aeons otherwise why should they give their strength to the summoner? This is how it was for pretty much all the games where you defeat the summons to control them.

     I was saying in XIV they are against you, and pointing out that this breaks the precedent of the other games while also providing some lore backing for why we might not have to fight them to gain them. Thank you for agreeing with me.

    You may call that a convoluted thought but fact remains. Topaz and Emerald Carbuncle are for all thoughts and purposes different summons. Starting with Emerald Carbuncle i have no qualms with that. Receiving Topaz Carbuncle from class quest shows we will recieve the rest of our summons from class quests. There is no question to that.

    Its like WoW. Emerald Carbuncle = Imp. Topaz Carbuncle = Voidwalker. (next summon you got was succubus, which is why im pretty sure next summon we get will be a control-type summon and if it ocntinues to follow the theme, its going to be another color carbuncle but its a 50/50 that it'll be that or a diff type of summon, but whats almost 100% assured is it will just be given to us from class quest regardless.

     I was granting you that for the sake of argument. Getting them from a class quest doesn't necessarily mean that each one of them will be handed to use without having to go through any kind of challenge in said class quest though.

    If FFXIV was gonna follow the idea of we have to work for our summons, then we would have had to defeat the Topaz Carbuncle first and not just get it as a quest reward.

    That's a completely baseless statement. You assume based on 2 class quests that we will never have to fight a summon in any of the future class quests? Why should we have to fight carbuncle - the lore says that he is easy to command with novice powers - it does not say that about the other summons.

    Btw, even if didn't actually fight the summon, again, that doesn't mean there will be no challenge and associated sense of accomplishment in acquiring them, or finishing the class quests with which they are tied. Even though you get handed Topaz Carbuncle, the class quest associated with him, which is meant to teach you how to use him, can be challenging if you don't actually make good use of him. There's no reason to believe future class quests couldn't be equally or more challenging.

    I didn't say anything about higher summons only being the ones that you have to defeat.

    Erm, you did say that the precedent was that some games give you the lesser summons while you had to fight the greater ones to earn them - what makes you think XIV won't be like that?

    I said summons in general. Every single summon in FFX you had to defeat to obtain, every summon in FFXI (aside from starting with carbuncle) you had to defeat in order to obtain. I showed that this theme has been a central theme of FF ever since Final Fantasy 3 and the only game that didn't follow this mold was FF9.(And Tactics as you pointed out)

    You didn't have to defeat the majority of the summons in FFX to obtain them, but you mentioned the Trials earlier, so I'll assume you meant those. Again, appealing to tradition for particular mechanics in FF games is usually fruitless - they take free reign with each new game, and as I fan I appreciate that. I like the idea of actually fighting all the summons too, but the fact is that that isn't specifically necessary to feel accomplished in collecting all of them, nor is getting them in some other way than fighting them automatically 'hand-holding'.

    Whoof, I think I'm going to call it here - I'm not terribly invested in convincing you out of your opinion, and I'm getting tired. If you want to get upset about not being able to bash in poor little carbuncle's face in PvE, then I'll not keep you from it.

  • SephirosoSephiroso Marietta, GAPosts: 1,160Member
    Originally posted by twrule
    Originally posted by Sephiroso
    Originally posted by twrule
    Originally posted by Sephiroso

    What does this show? Aside from a couple games where yes you could buy the lesser summons(i.e. carbuncle) from shops, you had to go out and defeat summons to be able to have the right to summon them. This has been the case in every single iteration of Final Fantasy that has had Summons in them bar 1, FF9, because you learned summons from gems that you could find anywhere.

    In FF6 they literally handed you most of the magicite for most of the summons as you progressed through the game - you fought a small handful of them in not particularly difficult fights, as part of that story. In FF Tactics, you purchased all the summons with skill points that you got just by entering many battles with Summoner as your job, and you could save up to buy the biggest baddest summon you wanted first, if you were so inclined.

    I don't even know why we are arguing this, because every FF title reserves the right to be different, and has usually exercised that right with most things. There is no unbreakable or unbroken rule or precedent that you must fight the summons in every game in order to be able to use them.

    You know what else is different here? The summons are against you. Unlike the other games, they won't agree to give you their power just because you defeated them. If anything, the summoners in XIV are either mimicking or forcibly wresting small portions of the power of the primals, which would be fine in the lore to do from anywhere.

    How I can say for certain that the trend of leveling up and getting handed our summons through class quest(that we would do regardless if we got a new summon from it or not) will continue? Topaz and Emerald Carbuncle may indeed be the same Carbuncle. But they are two entirely different summons.

    Topaz is a tank. Emerald is a caster(thus dps). Following this line of thought the next summon arcanist gets is either going to be another gem Carbuncle thats going to be relegated to support/control duty, or it will be a new summon but regardless, it's going to be given to us through class quest.

    We are not going to have to go out and search for them and defeat them in a hard fought battle that gave you a sense of accomplishment(and made fucking sense from a logical stand point).

     I didn't follow that convoluted line of thought (and it sounds like you haven't even looked at the arcanist/summoner abilities), but let's say that it is through a class quest. How does that show we won't fight them, or that there won't be some kind of trial? You're assuming the class quests do not consist of such a trial. Why wouldn't it feel like an accomplishment to have gotten to that level and completed the class quest?

    Us learning the Topaz carbuncle is the equivalent of us going to our guild master and her saying, Oh hey, i found this little stray bugger running around and he needs a new owner, be a doll and take good care of it okay?

     I thought we covered that we were talking about higher summons here, not Carbuncle - at least, your argument hinges on that being the case...who says the other class/job quests are like that? And btw, even the early class quests when they are teaching you how to use a new summon like Topaz carbuncle are not exactly without challenge.

     

    The summons in those games are definitely not necessarily against you. Take the aeons in FF10, the summoners just had to prove they were strong enough to command the aeons otherwise why should they give their strength to the summoner? This is how it was for pretty much all the games where you defeat the summons to control them.

     I was saying in XIV they are against you, and pointing out that this breaks the precedent of the other games while also providing some lore backing for why we might not have to fight them to gain them. Thank you for agreeing with me.

    You may call that a convoluted thought but fact remains. Topaz and Emerald Carbuncle are for all thoughts and purposes different summons. Starting with Emerald Carbuncle i have no qualms with that. Receiving Topaz Carbuncle from class quest shows we will recieve the rest of our summons from class quests. There is no question to that.

    Its like WoW. Emerald Carbuncle = Imp. Topaz Carbuncle = Voidwalker. (next summon you got was succubus, which is why im pretty sure next summon we get will be a control-type summon and if it ocntinues to follow the theme, its going to be another color carbuncle but its a 50/50 that it'll be that or a diff type of summon, but whats almost 100% assured is it will just be given to us from class quest regardless.

     I was granting you that for the sake of argument. Getting them from a class quest doesn't necessarily mean that each one of them will be handed to use without having to go through any kind of challenge in said class quest though.

    If FFXIV was gonna follow the idea of we have to work for our summons, then we would have had to defeat the Topaz Carbuncle first and not just get it as a quest reward.

    That's a completely baseless statement. You assume based on 2 class quests that we will never have to fight a summon in any of the future class quests? Why should we have to fight carbuncle - the lore says that he is easy to command with novice powers - it does not say that about the other summons.

    Btw, even if didn't actually fight the summon, again, that doesn't mean there will be no challenge and associated sense of accomplishment in acquiring them, or finishing the class quests with which they are tied. Even though you get handed Topaz Carbuncle, the class quest associated with him, which is meant to teach you how to use him, can be challenging if you don't actually make good use of him. There's no reason to believe future class quests couldn't be equally or more challenging.

    I didn't say anything about higher summons only being the ones that you have to defeat.

    Erm, you did say that the precedent was that some games give you the lesser summons while you had to fight the greater ones to earn them - what makes you think XIV won't be like that?

    I said summons in general. Every single summon in FFX you had to defeat to obtain, every summon in FFXI (aside from starting with carbuncle) you had to defeat in order to obtain. I showed that this theme has been a central theme of FF ever since Final Fantasy 3 and the only game that didn't follow this mold was FF9.(And Tactics as you pointed out)

    You didn't have to defeat the majority of the summons in FFX to obtain them, but you mentioned the Trials earlier, so I'll assume you meant those. Again, appealing to tradition for particular mechanics in FF games is usually fruitless - they take free reign with each new game, and as I fan I appreciate that. I like the idea of actually fighting all the summons too, but the fact is that that isn't specifically necessary to feel accomplished in collecting all of them, nor is getting them in some other way than fighting them automatically 'hand-holding'.

    Whoof, I think I'm going to call it here - I'm not terribly invested in convincing you out of your opinion, and I'm getting tired. If you want to get upset about not being able to bash in poor little carbuncle's face in PvE, then I'll not keep you from it.

    First off i did not agree with your first point in anyway by saying that the summons aren't necessarily against us. Sure the PRIMALS are. But when i say summons i mean the summons the class that can summon them are able to use. Not talking about the Primal like Ifrit/Behemoth that are obviously against us.

     

    Also every class is going to do their class quest regardless. So it doesnt matter if class quest is challenging or not(and they most definitely are not, they are snooze-fest EZ mode) Because regardless every class is going to be doing them. Also stripping the feature that they've spent years and years building upon in FF that summoners are just handed their summons without fighting them first to prove they're worthy to summon them is my point, not that class quests we get them from are challenging or not, though i wouldn't complain so much if the class quests actually were challenging.

     

    What you should be asking instead is, why is Topaz Carbuncle even a fucking summon. It should have been an entirely different summon, not just another color of Carbuncle. The fact that our 2nd summon that has a completely different use from the first is still a Carbuncle leads one to believe that all Arcanists summons will merely be forms of Carbuncles. Also we already know that there are 2 ways for classes to get spells. You level up and you get a spell or you get a spell from class quest. We already saw all the spells in the spell/skill list that you get from leveling up. Everything you don't see is gained from class quest. Obviously the rest of the summons will be obtained from class quest rewards just like the Topaz Carbuncle. So no, i did not make a baseless statement.

     

    Yes actually i did mean the trials, as for some you're right you didn't have to defeat them but you had to pass the trials which which actually were pretty challenging and made you think. Thus the whole -not handholding- theme of every other FF game with summons. While you claim they take free reign to change mechanics here and there, established mechanics are not changed at the core. And the core of the summons is you go out and fight them or perform an equally difficult challenge to show you're worthy of them. That is not the case in FFXIV, the only games where this wasn't the case is FF9. (not even was this the case in FF tactics since you had to beat a tough battle to get access to the summons or long sidequest).

     

    I'll repeat myself. If the class quests were even remotely challenging i wouldn't really have even complained to begin with, but they are not. Also given that every class will be doing their class quests regardless, the act of the arcanist getting its' summons shouldn't really be tied to just getting a spell from class quest imo since it should be something of a choice for arcanists, not something forced unto them.

     

    I'm not upset that we can't bash in poor little Carbuncles face as you say, its merely the handholding that i find in distaste.

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