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Elder Scrolls Online: Subscription Model Announced

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  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,455Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by NBlitz
     

    I got my "really not made up facts" from a column WoW's former Team lead, Mark Kern, wrote a while ago.

    Mark Kern: MMO Development Needs Change

    It seems somewhat similar to what Sony is doing with Everquest Next. IN that they have this round table site as well as incorporating player made items from that "Minecraftesque" product (can't remember the name.)

  • nycdannycdan Thornwood, NYPosts: 11Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by NL-Rikkert
    And they just lost a large chunck of potential customers.. why would you pay monthly for a game when you have hundreds of alternatives. Was curious if they could bring the SP experience combined with friends and the best of MMOs, but I have lost all my interest now. Not everyone has money to spent these days. Sub will just not work for me atm.

     

    I think another intepretation is they lost a large chunk of non-paying customers in exchange for a smaller number of paying customers.  While I completely understand the disappointment of many who are limited to F2P, it's not unreasonable for a company to pick the subscription model if their forecasts deem it more likely to generate higher revenue. 

    I have dabbled in a number of F2P games, but the number I spend money on is much lower.  I'm actually more comfortable with the subscription model as I know that as long as I'm paying, I'm on equal footing with everyone else.   Going F2P at the start guarantees a much higher population but also a much higher number of bot accounts and all the trouble that brings. 

     

  • NadiaNadia Canonsburg, PAPosts: 11,866Member Common
    Originally posted by NBlitz

    I got my "really not made up facts" from a column WoW's former Team lead, Mark Kern, wrote a while ago.

    depends on the game and tech tools available

     

    here's commentary to the contrary

    http://eq2wire.com/2013/08/04/the-book-closes-on-another-soe-live/

    Demoed at the Art & Animation panel, EQ2′s new Terrain Editor allowed the creation of a large island zone in 10 HOURS.

    The zone was much more intricate and detailed, flora and landscape elements just looked so much better, and significantly improved pathing is built in as well. No more NPCs and characters flipping around at odd angles as non-flat surfaces are encountered.

    It was truly amazing and I can’t say enough about it. In the past, the Design team has had to ask the Art team for new zones 6-9 months in advance. Now, we’ll see zones rapidly prototyped and iterated so much faster that who knows, there might even be some time to goose up some older zones which are interesting lorewise but visually dull (like Thundering Steppes).

  • rojoArcueidrojoArcueid hell, NJPosts: 6,778Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by achesoma
    Originally posted by bdew

    So FFXIV, Wildstar and now TESO are all sub based, I can't be happier.

    So tired of all thos bullshit nickle-and-dime P2W cash shop crap.

    I have to agree. The phrase "free to play" is the biggest misnomer  in this genre. I also believe a lot of these F2P games will eventually crash and burn in the coming years. Reminds me of the old Dot Coms bubble burst in 2000. 

    probably the ones developed from the ground up as F2P which are made with even lower quality, those could crash and burn and i wouldnt mind. But the thing is. All these subscription games that keep crashing and burning, survive as a result of changing models. So, we have seen more sub based mmos crash and burn and be reborn as F2P or B2P with a sub option and at least prolonged their lifetime a bit more that they would with a sub only.

    And subscription fanatics say that they were bad games and this and that, trying to justify why their favorite model keeps making mediocre games that crash and burn because even themselves (sub fans) refuse to pay for. WHich doesnt change the fact that subscription mmos are coming with F2P quality in the last few years and every single one of them has been proof of that.

    image
  • mikelafalcemikelafalce Chicago, ILPosts: 13Member
    Why is $15/ month the magic go to subscription price? Even $10/month would rock the MMO market.
  • someforumguysomeforumguy HomePosts: 3,540Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by NBlitz
    Originally posted by someforumguy
    Originally posted by NBlitz
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by Gorwe
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by Gorwe
    The idea of paying for something that is ABSOLUTELY unnecessary(the sub) just abhors me. As was visible by games such as GW1, GW 2, LoL, DoTA 2, SMITE, TSW(you choose the game),... it is CLEARLY visible that there is NO need for subscriptions.

    You have no idea as to what is necessary or not.

    GW1 was b2p and slowly added a cash shop. GW 2 launched with a cash shop.

    I haven't played the others but do they have cash shops? can you buy things and spend money other than the purchase of the game.?

     

    As I said in another thread, these games need "x" amount of dollars to stay afloat. Period. Developers moved to f2p because, though it does lower the barrier to entry and keep a healthy (hopefully) churn going, it uncaps the amounts that players can spend and a certain demographic will spend quite a lot.

    But with that model, they don't know how much money they will rake in from month to month and they need to constantly monetize new aspcects of their game to keep money flowing.

    The amount of money that it takes to run these things (and I'm not talking about internet use) is still the same. All developres/producers have done is try to figure out a way to get more of it. If you aren't paying then I can assure you someone else is paying for you.

    Regardless if this bothers you or not the bill is being paid. And once they have sold as much as they can they will come up with new ways to make ends meet.

    Game costs for development and keeping the company afloat haven't magically gone away.

    Yes, they have costume or such cash shops. Similar to GW 1. But it DOES NOT bother me! It's not like the dreaded pay2win(which is a nonsense outside of TRUE f2ps-as long as it is obtainable within the game, it is not pay2win).

    And yes. It is 110% unnecessary. I can't see how have we returned from the Modern ages(B2P, Freemium) to the Middle ages(P2P). Is just...wrong. Heh it reminds me of Egypt and how they are regressing back what with salafists and all.

    (I blame the CIA! They are ALWAYS guilty xD )

    I'm not talking about pay to win. I'm talking about "games need x amount of dollars to stay afloat.

    You are essentially making a statement saying that games only need to charge for initial cost of the game and if they have a cosmetic shop then that's fine "no biggie".

    I'm saying that games need x amount of dollars and game companies need to make that money. If they charge a monthly fee they make x amount of dollars. If they get rid of that monthly fee they still need those dollars so they hope that they can make enough oncosmetics.

    And they constantly have to offer new cosmetics, I see a banker's gollum there and I wonder what else? Doesn't matter, they still need the money. "X" amount of dollars always needs to be made. And if they don't get it one way they get it another. So "no" you don't know what is needed to keep these games afloat. All you see is that "now" they get their money from others willing to pay it and it doesn't affect you as it once did.

    But yet you have no idea the costs these business still have to incur.

    Exactly what I was getting at earlier.

    Let's not forget that games are becoming more expensive to develop. On WoW it used to take them a week to create a new monster. Nowadays it can take anywhere from 4 to 6 weeks to complete. Add in several more weeks just to complete a boss creature.

    Larger feature sets. Graphics. Having to hit the ground running vs other titles already launched and beefed up with content.

    These developers are not running a charitable organization.

    The investors are not fooling around.

    I like it when someone comes up with cool hard and really not made up facts!

    I got my "really not made up facts" from a column WoW's former Team lead, Mark Kern, wrote a while ago.

    Mark Kern: MMO Development Needs Change

     

    Edit: derp, grammar.

    I guess Arenenet is running a charitable organization then with their B2P payment model.

  • HusvikHusvik Somewhere, ONPosts: 440Member
    Originally posted by TookyG
    Originally posted by r3t3

    Bookmark my words.


    They will launch suck up box sales on the shiny new factor, ride monthly subs until the novelty wears off, and once subs plummet, they will go F2P and then nickel dime you to death.

    It’s the “real” new pricing model. Watch and learn.

    You heard it here first, I’m so sure of this i would bet on it.

     

    Of course they will.  TESO won't have the draw to stay P2P.  Just the fact that they're launching with P2P, however, pleases me.

    This p!sses me of though as everyone is investing into a future which does not exist for this game.


    You blow 60+ on the entrance fee; then play for 2 to 3 months tops or until you realize it’s just another cookie cutter and or novelty wears off, and you’re out over a hundred bucks.

    A few months later everyone gets the game FREE and cost to them is NOTHING to play whenever they want. Then the people whom actually thought they were investing into a P2P atmosphere are royally PO’d because “it’s not that game anymore."

    ***NEW FLASH! They could not give a rats behind about you anymore as they got what they wanted from you, box sale and a monthly cash drip while they work on the F2P model, plus you’re no longer the majority voice anymore, simply the few diehards who stuck around too long hoping F2P would never come, F2P players are now your rulers.
     

  • IceAgeIceAge SomeWhere In ..Posts: 1,013Member Common
    Originally posted by Wighty

    Looks like 2013/2014 is going to be dark days for the leechers who feel it's their right and entitlement to not have to pay nor support the very entertainment they are so passionate about.

    Right there, just right there. To the cave with them..

    Also, to does with a crystal ball , I don't care if Wildstar, or FF XIV ( nor TESO ), will go F2P in 1-2 years. Because I'll have fun in this time, without leechers, cryers and alike. I had a blast in Aion for 2 years when it has P2P, and I am expecting the same for Wildstar or FF.

    So then, you should wait ...wait as much as you want until they go F2P, while I will enjoy them from the very first release day.

    Good luck.

    Reporter: What's behind Blizzard success, and how do you make your gamers happy?
    Blizzard Boss: Making gamers happy is not my concern, making money.. yes!

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,455Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by someforumguy
     

    I guess Arenenet is running a charitable organization then with their B2P payment model.

    No Arenanet is counting on the cash shop to make up the difference.

    They would be running a charitable organization if they just charged for the box, didn't have a cash shop and always took a loss but said "it's ok, as long as the gamers are happy".

  • rojoArcueidrojoArcueid hell, NJPosts: 6,778Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by someforumguy

     

    I guess Arenenet is running a charitable organization then with their B2P payment model.

    theres no charity in business. And GW2 is crearly very successful. But as you can see. Some other companies are still Pursuing WoW's numbers.

    image
  • mikelafalcemikelafalce Chicago, ILPosts: 13Member

     

    Posted by someone else, but take a look at how great B2P can be!

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,209Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by 9ineven

    Enjoy your P2P games guys. Won't be paying a sub for a game that they said themselves is not a MMO.

     

    They also said that statement was made so as not to scare off players who werent' mmo players. The experience they want to create, per their own interview, is an Elder Scrolls game that is online and you can play with friends or make new friends.

    In other words, They are trying to make it more of "an elder scrolls game" than an mmo. Which, is a change from what they initially claimed the game to be. It's still an mmo.

    In the German interview he specifically even said by yourself.  Who pays a sub-fee for a single player game?

    This is going to be great watching crash and burn.

  • MyrdynnMyrdynn Beaumont, CAPosts: 1,517Member Uncommon

    I used to be 100% pro sub

    until I played RIFT's f2p, and I love it and think every game should follow.

    sub games shouldnt have box prices though anymore either.

     

  • someforumguysomeforumguy HomePosts: 3,540Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by someforumguy
     

    I guess Arenenet is running a charitable organization then with their B2P payment model.

    No Arenanet is counting on the cash shop to make up the difference.

    They would be running a charitable organization if they just charged for the box, didn't have a cash shop and always took a loss but said "it's ok, as long as the gamers are happy".

    You are just making wild assumptions like the others here in this thread. You have no clue how much profit Arenanet gets from just the box sales and whether Zenimax could do with a B2P payment model.

    I do understand it is a business and as a business you try to maximize profit. It helps if you have a lot of support from your customers. Customers that will blindly believe P2P==better quality games. Maybe they should throw in some lifetime subs and pricy preorder boxes too? :p

    GW2 set the bar really high for quality content (not talking about preference). So, a boxprice+sub really has to deliver. We will see if TESO and Wildstar can. Also, a lot of ppl are assuming that TESO will not have a cash shop. I haven't seen that statement yet.

  • MardukkMardukk Posts: 1,556Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by r3t3
    Originally posted by TookyG
    Originally posted by r3t3

    Bookmark my words.


    They will launch suck up box sales on the shiny new factor, ride monthly subs until the novelty wears off, and once subs plummet, they will go F2P and then nickel dime you to death.

    It’s the “real” new pricing model. Watch and learn.

    You heard it here first, I’m so sure of this i would bet on it.

     

    Of course they will.  TESO won't have the draw to stay P2P.  Just the fact that they're launching with P2P, however, pleases me.

    This p!sses me of though as everyone is investing into a future which does not exist for this game.


    You blow 60+ on the entrance fee; then play for 2 to 3 months tops or until you realize it’s just another cookie cutter and or novelty wears off, and you’re out over a hundred bucks.

    A few months later everyone gets the game FREE and cost to them is NOTHING to play whenever they want. Then the people whom actually thought they were investing into a P2P atmosphere are royally PO’d because “it’s not that game anymore."

    ***NEW FLASH! They could not give a rats behind about you anymore as they got what they wanted from you, box sale and a monthly cash drip while they work on the F2P model, plus you’re no longer the majority voice anymore, simply the few diehards who stuck around too long hoping F2P would never come, F2P players are now your rulers.
     

    Yeah if you buy this game with the $60 entrance fee, you are just burning money for no reason.  Patience will pay off.

    I didn't see him say what the entrance/box price would be though.

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,455Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Torvaldr
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by 9ineven

    Enjoy your P2P games guys. Won't be paying a sub for a game that they said themselves is not a MMO.

     

    They also said that statement was made so as not to scare off players who werent' mmo players. The experience they want to create, per their own interview, is an Elder Scrolls game that is online and you can play with friends or make new friends.

    In other words, They are trying to make it more of "an elder scrolls game" than an mmo. Which, is a change from what they initially claimed the game to be. It's still an mmo.

    In the German interview he specifically even said by yourself.  Who pays a sub-fee for a single player game?

    This is going to be great watching crash and burn.

    but now you are just getting into the whole solo vs a group thing. At this point that's neither here nor there. It's still an mmo with group and solo offerings.

    If you want to argue that there's a thread for it but you will see it's long with opposing viewpoints on both sides and no one agreeing.

    Regardless of my feelings twoard Elder Scrolls Online (some good some bad) it's still an mmo, it feels like an mmo, you can do mmo things, you can play with groups/pvp with groups or do solo stuff just like most mmo's out there.

  • TimothyTierlessTimothyTierless Columnist M, ORPosts: 2,163Member Uncommon
    There is hope for this one yet.
  • BrooksTechBrooksTech Canton, ILPosts: 163Member
    The F2p trend is ending.  I am so happy about this.
  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,209Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Myrdynn

    I used to be 100% pro sub

    until I played RIFT's f2p, and I love it and think every game should follow.

    sub games shouldnt have box prices though anymore either.

    Rift's revenue model is great as is Tera and GW2.

    To me box fees are just another sort of micro-transaction.  You're paying for digital content.  I don't think games that require subs should be charging extra.  The game should charge what it wants for the sub to be successful.  So if they need $20 per month from x number of players to keep going and make new stuff then charge that.  Don't charge $15 and then $60 here and there for the actual content.

    We'll see if Matt Firor was just talking shit when it comes to a box, dlc, and xpac fees.  He said he doesn't want to gate the experience, but those are hard gates right there.  This is nothing more than a money grab on his part.  A few people will fall for it like they always do before the game goes sub-free.

  • NBlitzNBlitz ZwollePosts: 1,904Member
    Originally posted by someforumguy
    <>

    I guess Arenenet is running a charitable organization then with their B2P payment model.

    I don't know about ANet.

    I would wait for more of NCSOFT's Quarterly Earnings Reports before claiming anything else regarding ANet's B2P payment model. I take it you mean GW2 by this?

    It did work well for GW1 but GW1 was an entirely different game altogether with expansions and what not.

  • someforumguysomeforumguy HomePosts: 3,540Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by NBlitz
    Originally posted by someforumguy
    <>

    I guess Arenenet is running a charitable organization then with their B2P payment model.

    I don't know about ANet.

    I would wait for more of NCSOFT's Quarterly Earnings Reports before claiming anything else regarding ANet's B2P payment model. I take it you mean GW2 by this?

    It did work well for GW1 but GW1 was an entirely different game altogether with expansions and what not.

    Did you read the rest of that quoted thread? I was being sarcastic. Next time I will definately use /sarcasm ... /sarcasm off or something :/

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,455Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by someforumguy
    Originally posted by NBlitz
    Originally posted by someforumguy
    <>

    I guess Arenenet is running a charitable organization then with their B2P payment model.

    I don't know about ANet.

    I would wait for more of NCSOFT's Quarterly Earnings Reports before claiming anything else regarding ANet's B2P payment model. I take it you mean GW2 by this?

    It did work well for GW1 but GW1 was an entirely different game altogether with expansions and what not.

    Did you read the rest of that quoted thread? I was being sarcastic. Next time I will definately use /sarcasm ... /sarcasm off or something :/

    now now, sarcasm doesn't always come off well on forum threads. It's so easy to miss that unless it's over the top.

  • NadiaNadia Canonsburg, PAPosts: 11,866Member Common
    Originally posted by Torvaldr

    We'll see if Matt Firor was just talking shit when it comes to a box, dlc, and xpac fees.  He said he doesn't want to gate the experience, but those are hard gates right there.  This is nothing more than a money grab on his part.

    agree

    a good example is EVE, a sub game that doesnt charge for expansion content

  • HellidolHellidol TACOMA, WAPosts: 405Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by garrett

    At Gamescom this morning, Matt Firor, General Manager of ZeniMax Online, has revealed that Elder Scrolls Online will use the Subscription Model.  This has been confirmed on the Elder Scrolls Online Facebook Page.

    Matt is quoted as saying: 

    "We are creating a game that offers players the freedom to play alone or with friends for as long as they want. An extensive game with voice content, which from the beginning has hundreds of hours of gameplay and boasts a world-class customer support. A monthly fee, say a subscription model, allows us to precisely match the players experience to offer that we envision and expect above all our fans too. Another payment model would mean compromises and changes to which we just were not ready."

    The Elder Scrolls Online offers unlimited fun for the first 30 days after purchase. You can play as much as you like. Many hundreds of hours of game content, PvP, etc. - all this awaits the player with the purchase of the game. Who wants to continue playing beyond the first month, paid the usual fee."

    Maybe there will be discounts or similar later, but for now we are happy that we can finally announce our payment model. It is quite simple: The players pay once a month after the first 30 days and the full game is available to them."

    The full interview with Matt Firor can be found here. 

    YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, I am buying this game for sure woot I am really happy about this, play to win models opens it self up for to many unknowns. This is the best model by far for a solid MMO. Hats off to GM of ZeniMax and the rest of the team.

    image
  • someforumguysomeforumguy HomePosts: 3,540Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by someforumguy
    Originally posted by NBlitz
    Originally posted by someforumguy
    <>

    I guess Arenenet is running a charitable organization then with their B2P payment model.

    I don't know about ANet.

    I would wait for more of NCSOFT's Quarterly Earnings Reports before claiming anything else regarding ANet's B2P payment model. I take it you mean GW2 by this?

    It did work well for GW1 but GW1 was an entirely different game altogether with expansions and what not.

    Did you read the rest of that quoted thread? I was being sarcastic. Next time I will definately use /sarcasm ... /sarcasm off or something :/

    now now, sarcasm doesn't always come off well on forum threads. It's so easy to miss that unless it's over the top.

    Lol now now, there there tsk tsk.

    If he read my comments in that same thread, he would've understood that I was being sarcastic. He also wouldn't have to ask if we were talking about GW2. Which made it obvious that he took my last comment out of context.

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