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Your life changed, why should the genre?

IfrianMMOIfrianMMO BarcelonaPosts: 212Member

This question is directed to all those older players that support the "casualization" of the genre because their lives changed and they no longer have as much time to dedicate to games and mmorpgs in particular.

I know not all older players and casuals support mmoprgs becoming easier, this question however, is directed to the ones that do believe and support it.

So the question is as follows :

 

Why do you insist, agree and celebrate on the casualization of the genre simply because you cannot fulfill it´s demands anymore?

 

You admit that you used to love the older games, and that you had many good memories and good times as you spent a lot of time, effort and dedication on your nostalgic mmo of choice, so why should the newer generations and those that still have the time, renounce to their turn to enjoy the genre as it was, simply because you can´t do it anymore?

 

Why should an entire genre adapt to your new and busy life instead of you finding a genre or type of game that you can actually afford and enjoy?

 

And if you really MUST play mmorpgs, why not accept that you will no longer be the big cheese and pursue a more casual and humble approach instead of demanding for the games to transform themselves into something you can play?

 

And as a side question, why is it that many of you insist on that anyone with the time, will and dedication to play mmos as you used to, is a basement dwelling,  nolifer loser that is bad and should feel bad, and does not think of married players?

Were you thinking of your own generation of busy players when you played mmo´s "hardcore"?

 

 

 

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Comments

  • DrakephireDrakephire Fontana, CAPosts: 445Member Uncommon

    Money talks. Casual mmo players didn't form a gang and demand at gunpoint that all future MMOs be casual. You fundamentally misunderstand the laws of supply and demand if you think that.

     

    There was demand for more casual MMOs which developers exploited to make more money.  Said developers can make more money because casual players require less resources to satisfy since they don't consume content at the same rate as hardcore players. This is on top of the market itself being at least an order of magnitude more populous (ie, millions of casual gamers compared to hundreds of thousands of hardcore).

     

     

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer ChairPosts: 5,587Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by IfrianMMO

    This question is directed to all those older players that support the "casualization" of the genre because their lives changed and they no longer have as much time to dedicate to games and mmorpgs in particular.

    I know not all older players and casuals support mmoprgs becoming easier, this question however, is directed to the ones that do believe and support it.

    So the question is as follows :

     

    Why do you insist, agree and celebrate on the casualization of the genre simply because you cannot fulfill it´s demands anymore?

     

    You admit that you used to love the older games, and that you had many good memories and good times as you spent a lot of time, effort and dedication on your nostalgic mmo of choice, so why should the newer generations and those that still have the time, renounce to their turn to enjoy the genre as it was, simply because you can´t do it anymore?

     

    Why should an entire genre adapt to your new and busy life instead of you finding a genre or type of game that you can actually afford and enjoy?

     

    And if you really MUST play mmorpgs, why not accept that you will no longer be the big cheese and pursue a more casual and humble approach instead of demanding for the games to transform themselves into something you can play?

     

    And as a side question, why is it that many of you insist on that anyone with the time, will and dedication to play mmos as you used to, is a basement dwelling,  nolifer loser that is bad and should feel bad, and does not think of married players?

    Were you thinking of your own generation of busy players when you played mmo´s "hardcore"?

     

     

     

    Because people grew up, got real jobs, make more money and the game publishers want it.

  • twruletwrule Daly City, CAPosts: 1,251Member

    I am apparently not precisely the audience you mean to address this to - I have a busy schedule and game casually, but I'm not going around disparaging anyone for playing more than me, nor do I seek to be the 'big cheese' of any game community, nor am I so nostalgic about the older games that I can't see their flaws now.

    The simple causal answer is that no one 'demanded' it, at least not directly. The genre changed because the market changed, the market changed because consumer lifestyles changed - hence the genre changed because people's lifestyles changed.

    But you asked why one might embrace this now. Why wouldn't they? I liked some things about some old-school games, but the fact that they necessitated larger per-session time investments was not necessarily among them. The sooner that myth is dispelled - the sooner we might find ourselves playing the same games, which are accessible to those with 'casual' play-time commitments.

  • muchavezmuchavez asdf, VAPosts: 200Member
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer
    Originally posted by IfrianMMO

    This question is directed to all those older players that support the "casualization" of the genre because their lives changed and they no longer have as much time to dedicate to games and mmorpgs in particular.

    I know not all older players and casuals support mmoprgs becoming easier, this question however, is directed to the ones that do believe and support it.

    So the question is as follows :

     

    Why do you insist, agree and celebrate on the casualization of the genre simply because you cannot fulfill it´s demands anymore?

     

    You admit that you used to love the older games, and that you had many good memories and good times as you spent a lot of time, effort and dedication on your nostalgic mmo of choice, so why should the newer generations and those that still have the time, renounce to their turn to enjoy the genre as it was, simply because you can´t do it anymore?

     

    Why should an entire genre adapt to your new and busy life instead of you finding a genre or type of game that you can actually afford and enjoy?

     

    And if you really MUST play mmorpgs, why not accept that you will no longer be the big cheese and pursue a more casual and humble approach instead of demanding for the games to transform themselves into something you can play?

     

    And as a side question, why is it that many of you insist on that anyone with the time, will and dedication to play mmos as you used to, is a basement dwelling,  nolifer loser that is bad and should feel bad, and does not think of married players?

    Were you thinking of your own generation of busy players when you played mmo´s "hardcore"?

     

     

     

    Because people grew up, got real jobs, make more money and the game publishers want it.

    Pretty much that.

    OP,

    Married people don't send encrypted emails to each other plotting the demise of hardcore gaming while supporting / lobbying for the 'casual game market'.  Its much more simple than that

    I don't have time to do 20 daily quests every day and 6 hour long raids twice a week.  So I pick a game that I can play.  Developers notice this and develop more games catered to us because we have more money than you, and they can live better / make more money catering to us.

    I have bad news for you.

    Its only going to get worse.

    Back in the 90s the majority of people playing online games were young kids.  Those kids grew up and gave their kids games, then those kids grew up and so on and so on.  Every year you have more and more adults with jobs playing MMOs.  Which means less 6 hour raids, and more insta join WvWvW type games.

  • DrakephireDrakephire Fontana, CAPosts: 445Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by muchavez
     

    Back in the 90s the majority of people playing online games were young kids.  Those kids grew up and gave their kids games, then those kids grew up and so on and so on.  Every year you have more and more adults with jobs playing MMOs.  Which means less 6 hour raids, and more insta join WvWvW type games.

     

    Very true.  While the market grows by adding newer young players, the market is sustained by those younger players getting older and remaining gamers.

     

    It's the same reason advertisers seek 18-30 something market. If they can hook a young person on their product, they have a better chance of retaining that person for life. That is how one continually grows a brand.

     

    There is a market for the types of games the OP desires, but it's a smaller market, and thus will only attract smaller development companies with smaller budgets.

  • RocknissRockniss Youngstown, OHPosts: 1,034Member
    Isn't the fact that your able to stereotype so many people enough justification? If your a dev, do you want to make a game that potentially 5 people will play or 5 million? Since most peoples lives have changed and priority has shifted, yes the genre should evolve with them. If it doesn't its going to miss out on it's main body.
  • xevanonxevanon Montreal, QCPosts: 76Member
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer
    Originally posted by IfrianMMO

    This question is directed to all those older players that support the "casualization" of the genre because their lives changed and they no longer have as much time to dedicate to games and mmorpgs in particular.

    I know not all older players and casuals support mmoprgs becoming easier, this question however, is directed to the ones that do believe and support it.

    So the question is as follows :

     

    Why do you insist, agree and celebrate on the casualization of the genre simply because you cannot fulfill it´s demands anymore?

     

    You admit that you used to love the older games, and that you had many good memories and good times as you spent a lot of time, effort and dedication on your nostalgic mmo of choice, so why should the newer generations and those that still have the time, renounce to their turn to enjoy the genre as it was, simply because you can´t do it anymore?

     

    Why should an entire genre adapt to your new and busy life instead of you finding a genre or type of game that you can actually afford and enjoy?

     

    And if you really MUST play mmorpgs, why not accept that you will no longer be the big cheese and pursue a more casual and humble approach instead of demanding for the games to transform themselves into something you can play?

     

    And as a side question, why is it that many of you insist on that anyone with the time, will and dedication to play mmos as you used to, is a basement dwelling,  nolifer loser that is bad and should feel bad, and does not think of married players?

    Were you thinking of your own generation of busy players when you played mmo´s "hardcore"?

     

     

     

    Because people grew up, got real jobs, make more money and the game publishers want it.

    +2

    Right on!

  • GormogonGormogon Waukegan, ILPosts: 188Member Uncommon
    Because progress.
  • DrakynnDrakynn The Pas, MBPosts: 2,030Member

    I am a former "Hardcore" MMORPG player who grew up and doesn't have the time to be that anymore.

    But I don't require that games become more casual for me.I'm happy to play them at my own  pace and with people who have similar time and agendas.

    All i require is that the game keeps me entertained and busy,I no longer have to get server firsts or the best gear before everyone else or access to everything as soon as possible.

    Unfortunately even going at my casual pace I run out of interesting things to do in MMORPG's these days and get bored.

    So I don't understand why others in my situation like the state of MMOPRGs these days or feel entitled to have everything instantly  that people who  can dedicate lots of time to a game earn.

  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 19,989Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Drakephire

    Originally posted by muchavez
     

    Back in the 90s the majority of people playing online games were young kids.  Those kids grew up and gave their kids games, then those kids grew up and so on and so on.  Every year you have more and more adults with jobs playing MMOs.  Which means less 6 hour raids, and more insta join WvWvW type games.

     

    Very true.  While the market grows by adding newer young players, the market is sustained by those younger players getting older and remaining gamers.

     

    It's the same reason advertisers seek 18-30 something market. If they can hook a young person on their product, they have a better chance of retaining that person for life. That is how one continually grows a brand.

     

    There is a market for the types of games the OP desires, but it's a smaller market, and thus will only attract smaller development companies with smaller budgets.

     

    These posts make me wonder if you two were even there in the late 90s and early 2000s for the first MMOS. They were predominately played by working adults, primarily because they ran on expensive PC hardware that was more complicated to operate. Children were actually quite rare and those people raiding for 6 hours were in there 20s and 30s, usually pre-children actually.

    Wasn't until WOW came along and would run on lower end PCs that were more often than not their parents "old" hardware that we saw the entry of not only children, but the casual console players who also typically did not invest on high end gaming hardware.

    I was in my 40s when I started,always managed to fit gaming in my schedule, but its true, I didn't do high end, long hour raid content, but the games I favored (L1,L2, DAOC,Shadowbane etc) did not require it to have fun in the game.

    For some reason many of todays gamers feel they are entitled to experience all of the game content. They are not, wasn't true when I first started playing, isn't true today though game develops sure seem to bend over backwards to accommodate them.

    Can't even understand why as most of them show no loyalty and are gone in a short time complaining about a lack of content, but hey they got exactly what they asked for, not sure why they complain.

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  • DrCokePepsiDrCokePepsi Boston, MAPosts: 158Member


    Originally posted by IfrianMMO
    This question is directed to all those older players that support the "casualization" of the genre because their lives changed and they no longer have as much time to dedicate to games and mmorpgs in particular.I know not all older players and casuals support mmoprgs becoming easier, this question however, is directed to the ones that do believe and support it.So the question is as follows : Why do you insist, agree and celebrate on the casualization of the genre simply because you cannot fulfill it´s demands anymore? You admit that you used to love the older games, and that you had many good memories and good times as you spent a lot of time, effort and dedication on your nostalgic mmo of choice, so why should the newer generations and those that still have the time, renounce to their turn to enjoy the genre as it was, simply because you can´t do it anymore? Why should an entire genre adapt to your new and busy life instead of you finding a genre or type of game that you can actually afford and enjoy? And if you really MUST play mmorpgs, why not accept that you will no longer be the big cheese and pursue a more casual and humble approach instead of demanding for the games to transform themselves into something you can play? And as a side question, why is it that many of you insist on that anyone with the time, will and dedication to play mmos as you used to, is a basement dwelling,  nolifer loser that is bad and should feel bad, and does not think of married players?Were you thinking of your own generation of busy players when you played mmo´s "hardcore"?   
    Well, i totally agree with you, over time this is unfortunately how the community eventually molded the genre and it's a shame. I totally agree :/
  • GinazGinaz Calgary, ABPosts: 1,731Member Uncommon
    Because catering your game to people who have the time to play 8 hours+ a day is dumb.  If it requires playing that much to "get to the top" then your game is bad.

    image

    Is a man not entitled to the herp of his derp?

    Remember, I live in a world where juggalos and yugioh players are real things.

  • NaughtyPNaughtyP Edmonton, ABPosts: 793Member
    I would say most older players I've met don't want casual games, they want thought-provoking ones. So I have no idea who you are talking to... sorry?

    Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.

  • Mtibbs1989Mtibbs1989 Fredericksburg, VAPosts: 2,920Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Drakephire

    Money talks. Casual mmo players didn't form a gang and demand at gunpoint that all future MMOs be casual. You fundamentally misunderstand the laws of supply and demand if you think that.

     

    There was demand for more casual MMOs which developers exploited to make more money.  Said developers can make more money because casual players require less resources to satisfy since they don't consume content at the same rate as hardcore players. This is on top of the market itself being at least an order of magnitude more populous (ie, millions of casual gamers compared to hundreds of thousands of hardcore).

     

     

     If they don't consume more content than "hardcore" customers then why have all of the new MMOs that have recently released become ghost towns after the release of the games? Essentially forcing the companies to turn them into F2P models.

    image

    Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer ChairPosts: 5,587Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Originally posted by Drakephire
    Originally posted by muchavez
     

    Back in the 90s the majority of people playing online games were young kids.  Those kids grew up and gave their kids games, then those kids grew up and so on and so on.  Every year you have more and more adults with jobs playing MMOs.  Which means less 6 hour raids, and more insta join WvWvW type games.

     

    Very true.  While the market grows by adding newer young players, the market is sustained by those younger players getting older and remaining gamers.

     

    It's the same reason advertisers seek 18-30 something market. If they can hook a young person on their product, they have a better chance of retaining that person for life. That is how one continually grows a brand.

     

    There is a market for the types of games the OP desires, but it's a smaller market, and thus will only attract smaller development companies with smaller budgets.

     

    These posts make me wonder if you two were even there in the late 90s and early 2000s for the first MMOS. They were predominately played by working adults, primarily because they ran on expensive PC hardware that was more complicated to operate. Children were actually quite rare and those people raiding for 6 hours were in there 20s and 30s, usually pre-children actually. Wasn't until WOW came along and would run on lower end PCs that were more often than not their parents "old" hardware that we saw the entry of not only children, but the casual console players who also typically did not invest on high end gaming hardware. I was in my 40s when I started,always managed to fit gaming in my schedule, but its true, I didn't do high end, long hour raid content, but the games I favored (L1,L2, DAOC,Shadowbane etc) did not require it to have fun in the game. For some reason many of todays gamers feel they are entitled to experience all of the game content. They are not, wasn't true when I first started playing, isn't true today though game develops sure seem to bend over backwards to accommodate them. Can't even understand why as most of them show no loyalty and are gone in a short time complaining about a lack of content, but hey they got exactly what they asked for, not sure why they complain.

    For me the pendulum swung the other way. Back in the early days of MMOs my kids were really little and OMG the WAGRO i'd pull when I tried to play my games. HAHA. Now they are in high school. I have a lot more time. (And money)

  • MibletMiblet BognerPosts: 333Member
    Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
    Originally posted by Drakephire

    Money talks. Casual mmo players didn't form a gang and demand at gunpoint that all future MMOs be casual. You fundamentally misunderstand the laws of supply and demand if you think that.

     

    There was demand for more casual MMOs which developers exploited to make more money.  Said developers can make more money because casual players require less resources to satisfy since they don't consume content at the same rate as hardcore players. This is on top of the market itself being at least an order of magnitude more populous (ie, millions of casual gamers compared to hundreds of thousands of hardcore).

     

     

     If they don't consume more content than "hardcore" customers then why have all of the new MMOs that have recently released become ghost towns after the release of the games? Essentially forcing the companies to turn them into F2P models.

    Could be many reasons...

    -Budgets of games have become insanely inflated and thus require more people than ever before to even break even.  EQ had fewer players than SWToR, yet also needed far fewer players to survive and flourish.

    -Perception of success has changed.  People used to see 200k players as a successful MMO, now MMOs can have a million and be seen as a failure because people (and the companies producing the titles) deep down expect WoW level numbers and nobody wants to play a 'failing' game in much the same way that there are people whose taste in music is determined by the top 10 charts.

    -New games just aren't always that good.

     

    There are lots more too.  It isn't a simple issue, moreso when tastes are so varied.

    It also doesn't help that people can't really agree on what is hardcore and casual.

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,316Member Uncommon
    It doesn't have to change unless it wants to keep those players and players like them. Which they do.

    And casual doesn't mean easier.

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,316Member Uncommon
    They haven't become ghost towns. They don't have as many as on release, but keeping that many is not realistic. They di have the same ir higher populations as old games. Were they ghost towns?

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,316Member Uncommon
    They haven't become ghost towns. They don't have as many as on release, but keeping that many is not realistic. They di have the same ir higher populations as old games. Were they ghost towns?

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • spizzspizz BlackForrestPosts: 2,587Member
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Originally posted by Drakephire
    Originally posted by muchavez
     

    Back in the 90s the majority of people playing online games were young kids.  Those kids grew up and gave their kids games, then those kids grew up and so on and so on.  Every year you have more and more adults with jobs playing MMOs.  Which means less 6 hour raids, and more insta join WvWvW type games.

     

    Very true.  While the market grows by adding newer young players, the market is sustained by those younger players getting older and remaining gamers.

     

    It's the same reason advertisers seek 18-30 something market. If they can hook a young person on their product, they have a better chance of retaining that person for life. That is how one continually grows a brand.

     

    There is a market for the types of games the OP desires, but it's a smaller market, and thus will only attract smaller development companies with smaller budgets.

     

    These posts make me wonder if you two were even there in the late 90s and early 2000s for the first MMOS. They were predominately played by working adults, primarily because they ran on expensive PC hardware that was more complicated to operate. Children were actually quite rare and those people raiding for 6 hours were in there 20s and 30s, usually pre-children actually. Wasn't until WOW came along and would run on lower end PCs that were more often than not their parents "old" hardware that we saw the entry of not only children, but the casual console players who also typically did not invest on high end gaming hardware. I was in my 40s when I started,always managed to fit gaming in my schedule, but its true, I didn't do high end, long hour raid content, but the games I favored (L1,L2, DAOC,Shadowbane etc) did not require it to have fun in the game. For some reason many of todays gamers feel they are entitled to experience all of the game content. They are not, wasn't true when I first started playing, isn't true today though game develops sure seem to bend over backwards to accommodate them. Can't even understand why as most of them show no loyalty and are gone in a short time complaining about a lack of content, but hey they got exactly what they asked for, not sure why they complain.

    This is true. The kids didnt learn that much about PC and Windows, many schools still had old equipment. In addition to that a k56 modem Internet connection was expensive in this time and there were no Internet Flats for a certain time. You did pay per minute plus a monthly base fee. The Internet was very new and it was not natural to have Internet in your house.

     

    To say that in this time the majority of online gamers were kids/teenagers is just bullshit, they did not have the money to go online to play games.

     

    The market did actually change and there is an  influence towards the youngsters, especially the teenagers up to the mid twens. Those which are the most manipulable and uncritical consumers.

  • Po_ggPo_gg Twigwarren, WestfarthingPosts: 2,715Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by IfrianMMO

    Why should an entire genre adapt to your new and busy life instead of you finding a genre or type of game that you can actually afford and enjoy?

    Drakephire already gave the short summary right in the 2nd post: You fundamentally misunderstand the laws of supply and demand...

    Former players have only a little influence onto the course of the industry, simply because they're just the minority among the playerbase. And there are no veteran player lobbyists at the publishers to urge them making shorter, more casual games :)

  • GrayKodiakGrayKodiak Nada, FLPosts: 576Member

    People seem to be under the impression that there is this massive horde of spammers going after devs to make less hard core games.

    This is probably not true.

    Some people also equate stupid old mechanics, that we didn't even like back in the day, with hard core...and that also isn't true.

    Heck, I am a full on PvP, full equipment durability decay over time, sandbox, player housing, main city invasion kind of player... I just had my mining barge shot out from under me in Eve and had to crawl back to my warehouse which was 20 minutes away on autopilot to grab another one just to go back out and potentially have it done again, while you were writing junk about how easy things are on this forum.....but that does not mean I agree with a lot of what you people call hard core... I do not agree that having 16 versions of the same skill on seperate cool downs...or one more slightly powerful than the other, is hard core...in fact it is stupid, it always has been stupid.

    You want hard core? Go play gemstone IV and get your experience knocked down by WEEKS if you die several times in a row, and wait a month between levels..and then MAYBE get a skill because you only get one every 5 levels or so...ONE..and then try and get one of three epic bows in the entire game world, from the hands of a player who isn't going to give it up for less than $1000 dollars.

    But I don't agree that you being level 50 makes you immune to lower level mobs or players is hard core, it isn't it is asinine. Defeats the whole purpose of an army if one guy is functionally immune to a thousand. Those stupid little dungeons that you can replay over and over and over again until you get it right? Not hard core, the fact that once you figure it out you have to run it again and again and again to get tokens or "gear sets" or some random chance at some loot...also not hard core it is just a time sink plain and simple by the time you are farming it the dungeon represents no more of a problem to you than a level 1 kobold back in goldshire...it just take 100 times the investment in your time. Hard Core is the NPC disarming you taking your tier six sword and beating you upside the head with it, then running away after you die.

     

    I think what I am trying to say is, I do not have a problem with hard core, I just have a problem with a lot of peoples definition of it.

  • DavisFlightDavisFlight Talahasee, FLPosts: 2,556Member
    Originally posted by Drakephire

    Money talks.

     

    More accurately, WoW talks. Almost all the other casual AAA games were huge failures and barely anyone played them for long.

  • GinazGinaz Calgary, ABPosts: 1,731Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Mtibbs1989

     

     If they don't consume more content than "hardcore" customers then why have all of the new MMOs that have recently released become ghost towns after the release of the games? Essentially forcing the companies to turn them into F2P models.

    Maybe because the games weren't that good?  Not being "hardcore" enough had nothing to do with it.  "Hardcore" doesn't automatically equal being good.

    image

    Is a man not entitled to the herp of his derp?

    Remember, I live in a world where juggalos and yugioh players are real things.

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