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What does hardcore mean to you?

cowboyonicowboyoni Bellevue, NEPosts: 36Member

I have seen a lot of people on here complain that EQN looks like it will cater to casual players and ignore the hardcore crowd. This honestly kinda confuses me. SF4 (street fighter 4) and it's various editions is considered a hardcore fighting game. People from around the world compete in various SF4 tournaments and it takes a long time to become good in that game. That being said you can be a casual player of that game. I am one of these casual players. I loose most my online matches but still enjoy popping the game in from time to time.

 

Yet when I look threw this board I seem to see a common sentiment that hardcore means there are aspects of the game that makes casual players not want to play the game.  I really can't see a dev team sitting around going "Hey I got a great idea that is sure to make a bunch of people quit our game". I guess what I'm saying is I don't see why a game can't satisfy both the hardcore audience and casual audience at the same time.

 

All that being said, MMOs and fighting games are very different. Eve online is a notoriously difficult mmo to get into but it also has been successful and has a strong fan base.  So maybe I'm wrong. Maybe for an mmo to be fun for the hardcore crowd it has to be generally not fun for the casual players.

 

So I say again, what does hardcore mean to you :) 

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Comments

  • DzoneDzone bowling green, KYPosts: 351Member Uncommon

    Hardcore to me means:

     

    Plays at least 16 hrs a day

    7 days a week

    Very rarely AFK time

    Only take like a 10 minute breaks every 2 hours to get up to use the bathroom, stretch legs

    Take a 30 minute break like every 6 hours to eat, then back to game

    Always running around doing something, wether its farming, questing, pvping

     

    Now if a player could play like that with 1 game for years to come and never run outa stuff to do... well that will prolly never happen.

  • RusqueRusque Las Vegas, NVPosts: 2,229Member Uncommon

    Hardcore is usually considered one of three things:

    1. Harsh penalties for some part of the gameplay (on death, on territory loss . . . etc)

    2. Time required for advancement , often tedious and repetitious.

    3. Unrestricted open PvP.

     

    I don't necessarily agree with those sentiments defining hardcore, but generally speaking that's what self proclaimed hardcore players look at.

    What you're saying (OP) about SF4 is that players who are extremely dedicated and put in a great deal of effort are hardcore, and that's what I would agree with. You can play Super Mario Bros in a hardcore manner (speed runs, 100%'ing, 0 deaths, so on), but in the end it's still an extremely accessible game that many of us beat when we were six years old - so it's very casual at the same time.

     

    I personally don't care for open world PvP in MMO's and have been called a carebear casual for that on various occasions, but at the same time I'm pretty hardcore into Dota 2 which isn't exactly for the faint of heart as it requires a lot of dedication and practice along with in-game knowledge.

     

    I guess we can boil it down to hardcore game = a game that requires more of it's players. More attention, more time, more effort. That's doesn't always equate to better, it just means more.

    It's also a barrier to entry which is why I think people want to see it so that they can keep other players out of their level via artificial means. If a game requires 3 years to reach level cap, even if it means grinding really easy to kill mobs, most players won't have the time or patience to do that. And those who do will enjoy feeling smug knowing that others couldn't hack it.

     

  • AldersAlders Jack Burton'sPosts: 1,857Member Uncommon

    What it means to me:  number crunching, build testing, being extremely knowledgeable, dedicated, and great at my class.

    What it seems to mean to many: playing 12+ hours a day.

     

  • sanshi44sanshi44 BrisbanePosts: 1,088Member Uncommon

    Just wants a game that doesnt hand you everything on a silver platter and feeds it to you while the game plays itselfs with mods while yo usit back and watch it.

    Most people seem to consider a game that does this as hardcore.

  • VassagoMaelVassagoMael Covington, LAPosts: 555Member
    Harder than softcore but softer than deathcore.

    Free to play = content updates for the cash shop. Buy to play = content updates for the cash shop.
    Subscription = Actual content updates!

  • RorrinRorrin Waxahachie, TXPosts: 29Member Common

    01) xp loss on death

    02) average 12 months to reach max level

    03) no mini-map

    04) no map period

    05) advancement only via group reliance

    06) spawn camping for rarest items

    07) no quest markers or quest log

    08) 40+ person raids

    09) open world conflict, either through pvp or mob tagging, kill stealing

    10) requires 8+ hour gaming sessions to progress

    11) requires min-maxing to shine and really stand out above your peers

    12) possibility of losing corpse on death, corpse dragging

    13) dungeons you can get lost in

    14) no sparkly trail showing you where to run to next

    15) guild membership mandatory to succeed

    16) class and role reliance to succeed

    17) minimal, and meaningful, fast travel - fast travel is a privilege, not a right mentality

    18) non-instanced dungeons

    19) willing to gear up others before yourself to progress

    20) mobs that can 2-shot you are in every zone

  • AeliousAelious Portland, ORPosts: 2,854Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by cowboyoni

    I have seen a lot of people on here complain that EQN looks like it will cater to casual players and ignore the hardcore crowd. This honestly kinda confuses me. SF4 (street fighter 4) and it's various editions is considered a hardcore fighting game. People from around the world compete in various SF4 tournaments and it takes a long time to become good in that game. That being said you can be a casual player of that game. I am one of these casual players. I loose most my online matches but still enjoy popping the game in from time to time.

     

    Yet when I look threw this board I seem to see a common sentiment that hardcore means there are aspects of the game that makes casual players not want to play the game.  I really can't see a dev team sitting around going "Hey I got a great idea that is sure to make a bunch of people quit our game". I guess what I'm saying is I don't see why a game can't satisfy both the hardcore audience and casual audience at the same time.

     

    All that being said, MMOs and fighting games are very different. Eve online is a notoriously difficult mmo to get into but it also has been successful and has a strong fan base.  So maybe I'm wrong. Maybe for an mmo to be fun for the hardcore crowd it has to be generally not fun for the casual players.

     

    So I say again, what does hardcore mean to you :) 

     

    You bring up a great point and I think, like the term "sandbox", the definition is in the opinion of the speaker.  Not only that the term can change a bit depending on what it's being compared to.  If someone compares hardcore to casual I think hardcore then means that the content takes a long time to complete in one sitting, since to me casual means a short amount of time is needed.  If content takes a lot of work over a period of weeks that is still content for casual players, it just may take longer overall.  I do think people mistakenly interchange the terms in order to make a point against a game or players.

     

    I'm in agreement with you that no matter how hardcore a game is it should still be accessible to casual players if speaking about hard content.  In fact, I'm hoping that EQN has a lot of content that is "hardcore" as it relates to difficulty since it adds a sense of worth to what you accomplishing.  That said I'm family man that can only spend a few hours a night tops so I'm not hardcore.

     

    In most cases I don't think the two terms are comparable.

  • donpopukidonpopuki Dearborn, MIPosts: 591Member
    The following equation

    H = x + y + z

    Where x is the complexity of the game
    y is the difficultly
    and z is average time invested
    Gives you rating of hardcore.
  • cowboyonicowboyoni Bellevue, NEPosts: 36Member

    Just realized I didn't say what I considered to be hardcore. 

    So what I consider hardcore is how many levels of depth or complexity there is to a game.  So for example a board game like chess would be on one end of the spectrum and a game like tic-tac-toe would be on the other.  Things like, how long it takes to hit lvl cap or how harsh is the death penalty, imo have nothing to do with how hardcore the game is. These are just aspects of the game that people either enjoy or don't enjoy.

     

    I't what interest me about being able to mix and mash 40 different classes in the game on your character and the removal of the traditional taunt/aggro system. This could lead to not only a lot of complexity in building your character but also a lot of depth to party setups. Though I will concede that if executed poorly these things could lead to everyone basically doing a dps role and zerg attacking all the content in the game.

  • Univers0Univers0 SydneyPosts: 29Member
    If this game would reward not how much you play but how well you play, it would be truly revolutionary.  A hardcore player is one who puts in the effort which is beyond passing interest.  If the game rewards them to camp a rare drop or if it rewards inventing a new way to tackle an impossible task, then hardcore player will do it.  Hopefully, it is the latter.
  • AstraeisAstraeis AmsterdamPosts: 331Member Uncommon
    Hardcore is a word used by mmo forum trolls as flame bait. Less effective than words like carebear or looser.

    It takes one to know one.

  • KingsFieldKingsField Beverly Hills, CAPosts: 37Member
    'Hardcore' is a marketing buzzword that means nothing to me. Those of us who were around for UO and EverQuest never used that word to describe what we were playing. We might have used words like 'good' or 'bad', but those words don't have much weight on a spreadsheet in a corporate boardroom.
  • Greymantle4Greymantle4 Posts: 803Member Uncommon
    Now a days most would say its hardcore if they die as they level. :P
  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCPosts: 5,616Member Uncommon

    "Hardcore" is the belief system that MMORPGs should not be about having fun but instead they should be about pain and suffering because, they say, it is only rewarding to win if you lost a lot before the win.

    The pain and suffering part can be anything from the lack of convenience features (no map or minimap as someone said above) to forced grouping and stacked mob pseudo AI.

    It's the gaming equivalent of "no gain without pain" or "life is hard and then you die."

    [mod edit]

  • DeivosDeivos Mountain View, CAPosts: 1,796Member Uncommon
    Going longer than four hours without contacting a physician.

    "The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners."
    - Thomas B. Macaulay

  • simmihisimmihi -Posts: 613Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Iselin

    "Hardcore" is the belief system that MMORPGs should not be about having fun but instead they should be about pain and suffering because, they say, it is only rewarding to win if you lost a lot before the win.

    The pain and suffering part can be anything from the lack of convenience features (no map or minimap as someone said above) to forced grouping and stacked mob pseudo AI.

    It's the gaming equivalent of "no gain without pain" or "life is hard and then you die."

    [mod edit]

    Awesome answer. Post of the day for me.

  • OzivoisOzivois Phoenix, AZPosts: 598Member

    Hardcore example: the game employs a high level of danger and penalties when doing dungeon crawls. The rewards to get to the boss at the end of the dungeon crawl are great, but a high level of skill is required to both get there and then defeat the Named. The boss has a long respawn timer and the good drops are rare. Quick respawning of "trash" mobs, naked corpse retrievals and a long crawl are important obstacles. If the group wipes, you are basically starting all over again. The existence of these hard-to-get-to bosses don't take away from the rest of the game play environment so you can employ hardcore dungeons like this without upsetting casual players. The large amount of time taken to complete this kind of adventure prevent loot from being farmed.

    Another example: Named mobs that drop the best items have extremely long respawn timers, so players need to camp the placeholders for hours and hours. Not unlike real-life fishing/hunting. Casual players don't have the time for this. But these kind of camps allow players the opportunity to earn gear they can wear or wield proudly because others know what a pain it is to obtain them.

    A final example: raids take at least 4 hours. Most normal players can't spare that very often so only hardcore players get to do them.

  • georgatos7georgatos7 RPosts: 54Member

    For me hardcore means.

     

    - Freedom but real consequencies for every action (good or bad).

    - Complex mechanics that reward the smart and the knowledgeable (crafting, skill weaknesses, politics etc).

    - Real depth in guild politics and meaningful social aspects of the game. (ex. Need for good relations with good player merchats, crafters or knowledgeable players in general)

    - Player skilled combat that needs good reaction times, good aim and movement, good decision making and good and everchanging team tactics.

    - A dangerous world. No easy mode no matter the level.

    - Real consequences in case of death.

    - Dynamic systems that doesnt hand you everything on a silver platter as Sanshi44 said.

     

    Lets be honest.

    Ability spamming easy mode for 15 hours in the same strategic terms and without consequences other than the time lost in case of failure/death and with no real challenge is a wrong perception of hardcore.

    That's carebear grind.

  • DeolusDeolus DoncasterPosts: 392Member

    Hardcore to me never meant difficulty or inconvenience or downtime or anything to do with PvP. It was simply the amount of time you could invest playing the game. I.e. at least 3 evenings doing 6 hour raids and 20+ hrs doing other things I would say was the low end of hardcore.

    I usually spend a lot of time in my games, not as much these days but at least 6 hrs a day was the norm. I would never have considered myself a hardcore gamer.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member

    Warning: This is a very generalized paintbrush, and applied quite broadly. If you consider yourself 'hardcore' you may want to skip reading the following, rather than reaching for your report button. It is only personal opinon. Thank you.

    "Hardcore: Willing to self-appoint myself to the position, and eager to tell everyone who might listen how badass I am at every possible opportunity."

    Sure, that's not very flattering. But I've been watching the forum antics for about three decades now. To me; "hardcore" is a synonym for "poseur". Self-aggrandizement addicts. Hubris huggers. MMOsochists.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • DamonVileDamonVile Vancouver, BCPosts: 4,818Member

    I'm always surprised there are so many "hardcore" players. Considering the inability to procreate is one of the key factors in being hardcore you'd think they'd be a dieing breed.

    It sort of flies in the face of the laws of nature.

  • ArconaArcona VanlosePosts: 1,185Member
    Originally posted by Iselin

    "Hardcore" is the belief system that MMORPGs should not be about having fun but instead they should be about pain and suffering because, they say, it is only rewarding to win if you lost a lot before the win.

    The pain and suffering part can be anything from the lack of convenience features (no map or minimap as someone said above) to forced grouping and stacked mob pseudo AI.

    It's the gaming equivalent of "no gain without pain" or "life is hard and then you die."

    The proponents of this game style derive a lot of self-satisfaction from their ability to withstand pain and suffering and are openly contemptuous of any players that don't share their masochistic preference.


    Yeah, the first mmorpgs were a pain to play, no minimap, almost no quests so you had to grind, extremely slow leveling, etc

    But the the computers were slow and the developers had few resources.

    With the technology today we can have more realistic setbacks instead of making you run to your corpse for 10 minutes.

    Everquest Next you can spend two months building a city, and then watch it be taken apart by a Orc invasion.

    Now that is hardcore.

  • General-ZodGeneral-Zod Zod, CAPosts: 743Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by georgatos7

    For me hardcore means.

     

    - Freedom but real consequencies for every action (good or bad).

    - Complex mechanics that reward the smart and the knowledgeable (crafting, skill weaknesses, politics etc).

    - Real depth in guild politics and meaningful social aspects of the game. (ex. Need for good relations with good player merchats, crafters or knowledgeable players in general)

    - Player skilled combat that needs good reaction times, good aim and movement, good decision making and good and everchanging team tactics.

    - A dangerous world. No easy mode no matter the level.

    - Real consequences in case of death.

    - Dynamic systems that doesnt hand you everything on a silver platter as Sanshi44 said.

     

    Lets be honest.

    Ability spamming easy mode for 15 hours in the same strategic terms and without consequences other than the time lost in case of failure/death and with no real challenge is a wrong perception of hardcore.

    That's carebear grind.

    The only person that got it right....

    image
  • AnthurAnthur StolbergPosts: 686Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Iselin

    "Hardcore" is the belief system that MMORPGs should not be about having fun but instead they should be about pain and suffering because, they say, it is only rewarding to win if you lost a lot before the win.

    The pain and suffering part can be anything from the lack of convenience features (no map or minimap as someone said above) to forced grouping and stacked mob pseudo AI.

    It's the gaming equivalent of "no gain without pain" or "life is hard and then you die."

    [mod edit]

    "Hardcore" is the opposite of the belief system that MMORPGs should be only about having fun but instead they should also be about effort and challenge because, they say, it is not rewarding to play if you gain everything without even trying.


    The gain everything without even trying can be anything from super radar maps with gps systems and auto navigation to complete ability to solo any content, no requirement to communicate with anyone and total lack of mob AI.


    It's not the gaming equivalent of "gain everything without even trying" or "life is easy and everyone will get to paradise."
     

  • coretex666coretex666 PraguePosts: 1,934Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Rusque

    Hardcore is usually considered one of three things:

    1. Harsh penalties for some part of the gameplay (on death, on territory loss . . . etc)

    2. Time required for advancement , often tedious and repetitious.

    3. Unrestricted open PvP.

     

    I don't necessarily agree with those sentiments defining hardcore, but generally speaking that's what self proclaimed hardcore players look at.

    What you're saying (OP) about SF4 is that players who are extremely dedicated and put in a great deal of effort are hardcore, and that's what I would agree with. You can play Super Mario Bros in a hardcore manner (speed runs, 100%'ing, 0 deaths, so on), but in the end it's still an extremely accessible game that many of us beat when we were six years old - so it's very casual at the same time.

     

    I personally don't care for open world PvP in MMO's and have been called a carebear casual for that on various occasions, but at the same time I'm pretty hardcore into Dota 2 which isn't exactly for the faint of heart as it requires a lot of dedication and practice along with in-game knowledge.

     

    I guess we can boil it down to hardcore game = a game that requires more of it's players. More attention, more time, more effort. That's doesn't always equate to better, it just means more.

    It's also a barrier to entry which is why I think people want to see it so that they can keep other players out of their level via artificial means. If a game requires 3 years to reach level cap, even if it means grinding really easy to kill mobs, most players won't have the time or patience to do that. And those who do will enjoy feeling smug knowing that others couldn't hack it.

     

    Nicely summed up in 3 points. I completely agree.

    I want my future MMORPG to include all of them.

    Originally posted by Rorrin

    01) xp loss on death

    02) average 12 months to reach max level

    03) no mini-map

    04) no map period

    05) advancement only via group reliance

    06) spawn camping for rarest items

    07) no quest markers or quest log

    08) 40+ person raids

    09) open world conflict, either through pvp or mob tagging, kill stealing

    10) requires 8+ hour gaming sessions to progress

    11) requires min-maxing to shine and really stand out above your peers

    12) possibility of losing corpse on death, corpse dragging

    13) dungeons you can get lost in

    14) no sparkly trail showing you where to run to next

    15) guild membership mandatory to succeed

    16) class and role reliance to succeed

    17) minimal, and meaningful, fast travel - fast travel is a privilege, not a right mentality

    18) non-instanced dungeons

    19) willing to gear up others before yourself to progress

    20) mobs that can 2-shot you are in every zone

    Some nice points here either. I agree with most of them.

     

    Waiting for L2 EU Classic

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