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Originally posted by boxsnd Originally posted by velmax I don't think this was the best decision, but i guess i'm the minority.
You are in the majority. The pro-P2P players are a vocal minority, that's why every MMO that comes out as P2P in the last 8 years fails.
If you think games fail because of their business model, I don't know what to say.
No one says "I quit SWTOR because of the subscription cost". They say "I quit SWTOR because of the lack of endgame" or something else.
It is all about the game. Business model doesn't matter. Good games will succeed. Bad games will not. F2P bad games will fail.
I don't think P2P is the "minority" by any means. The most popular MMO in the West is still WoW.
Originally posted by Alders Originally posted by doodphace Originally posted by GeezerGamer Originally posted by DAOWAce RIP Wildstar. It looked like an MMORPG that should've been made a few years ago, now it's confirmed to use a subscription model like games years ago. This will die faster than SWTOR, and that was carried by the fact it was, you know, Star Wars. Now I wonder how long FFXIV will last. Probably indefinitely, because of how long FFXI has been going on with a low, niche playerbase. I just do not see how you can offer a subscription based game in present time anymore.
It's quite simple actually. All you need to do to successfully offer a subscription based game, is to offer a game worth subscribing to. That's what you just do not see in present time anymore. Well, at least I see one anyway, and this one isn't it.
Show me an MMO released in the last 8 years that had PVE content that took people months of literally dedicating their lives to it (16 hours a day) to clear. Offer an MMO with the same amound of endgame content, and it will be able o keep its subscription model.
Hammerknell took months for guilds to clear in Rift.
Unfortunately it also killed off 50% of the raiding guilds in the process.
From Voodoo's interview about their world first clear of it, specifially the last boss:
"3 weeks ago he had a 15 minute enrage timer (instead of 20), and required about 25 minutes to actually kill. The week after that we struggled with tidal waves coming from four different directions, two of which came through the boss’ model/tentacles and were extremely difficult (near impossible) for melee and the tank to see. Then the week after that Cerebral Bore was bugged (?) and one-shotting people as soon as it went out. We spent several nights trying all sorts of wild strategy theories to deal with it, but after exhausting all options we were forced to just wait for another round of hotfixes."
Thats why it took so long, and thats also why raiders left in droves.
If you compare that to lets say, WoWs current tier. Not only did it take over a month for Method to clear it while raiding 16+ hours a day non stop, their interview was much diff, claiming that the fights and mechanic were perfectly balanced. Wildstar needs that type of raid polish to survivie as P2P.
Please stop referring to the 30 days of play time that comes with the initial 60 dollar purchase as a"free 30 days". It's not free. You pay 60 dollars to get the first 30 days. The ability to play for 30 days is he ONLY thing you get for your initial purchase. So it's actually an extremely expensive 30 days of play.
It's as if the grocery store offered "free steak" but you have to pay twenty bucks for the plastic wrapper.
Doesn't matter, tho. There simply aren't enough people out there who will pay a hefty box price plus sub for an unknown game by an unknown company based on an original IP. This pay scheme will fail bigtime.
Originally posted by GeezerGamer Originally posted by Muntz Originally posted by GeezerGamer Originally posted by DAOWAce RIP Wildstar. It looked like an MMORPG that should've been made a few years ago, now it's confirmed to use a subscription model like games years ago. This will die faster than SWTOR, and that was carried by the fact it was, you know, Star Wars. Now I wonder how long FFXIV will last. Probably indefinitely, because of how long FFXI has been going on with a low, niche playerbase. I just do not see how you can offer a subscription based game in present time anymore.
Sure, simple. Each individual customer is going to decide what is worth subscribing to. That will be based on what is being offered not just in this game but in every game that is out and every game that will come out. The comparison was small in the distant past.
Somewhere between WoW TBC and WoW Wrath, there was a focus change. The games began to focus on the reward instead of the content.
For those of us who played MMOs before then.....think back to your most fond memories of accomplishments in MMOs. I'mm willing to bet tha tfor the most of us, they revolved around doing the very things players had bitched about and got removed.
Back in the TBC days, I remember leveling my hunter through Outland. I remember doing the long quest chain in BEM to get that blue neck item. I remember doing the long ass quest chain starting in Nagrand that lead through dungeons and ended with a 5 man team quest in SMV to get the Sunfury Leggings. I remember grinding my ass off doing dailys to get Don Santos Rifle on my Hunter. I remember busint my ass to get LW to 375 and Dragonscale LW so I could create the Ebon Netherscale Armor set. I remember getting Legacy out of Kara.
Now, Ask me if I can tell you what my Death Knight wore.
See old MMOs were never about "What does the player want to do" but rather, they were about "What is the player willing to go through to get what they want"?
Modern players don't like that system. But yet, it kept 12M players logging back in every month. Soon as Blizz changed that focus they started bleeding.
I never played WoW. I did play AO. It had that system but I don't remember it half as fondly. I look at many of those accomplishments as a big waste of time that really wasn't that fun. That is my perspective of the past. I suppose for some I'm part of the problem. I just don't want to play a game design like that. If that is your idea of fun and this or another game provides it, I won't be playing but I hope you enjoy it. I think for the most parts games get judged by their peers and the future and not the past. With so many games coming out that can be difficult to keep up with.
Originally posted by sirchive Please stop referring to the 30 days of play time that comes with the initial 60 dollar purchase as a"free 30 days". It's not free. You pay 60 dollars to get the first 30 days. The ability to play for 30 days is he ONLY thing you get for your initial purchase. So it's actually an extremely expensive 30 days of play. It's as if the grocery store offered "free steak" but you have to pay twenty bucks for the plastic wrapper.
anyway i dont care if wildstar's payment method is p2p or p2win. i think that in the current mmo market, with so many descent f2p/b2p games and many more coming in the near future, like eq next and archeage, Wildstar will be R.I.P.2P
Originally posted by Greyed Huge mistake. Number of AAA MMOs released in the latter half of the naughties that have survived on that model. 0. The player base has voted with their wallets, they prefer the B2P or F2P models.
Speak for your self!
-Massive-Industries- Heavy Duty
Originally posted by Jinxys Good call Carbine/NC . I am glad you decided to go the P2P route. If your game is as good as it looks and sounds, which I think it might be. Then it will still get the numbers and people will not hesitate to sub. The P2P subscription model is FAR from dead. I'm elated you decided not to go with a Cashshop/F2P/B2P
no cash shop? hmmmm, wait a bit m8 and you will see one in game at launch
Originally posted by Muntz Originally posted by GeezerGamer Originally posted by Muntz Originally posted by GeezerGamer Originally posted by DAOWAce RIP Wildstar. It looked like an MMORPG that should've been made a few years ago, now it's confirmed to use a subscription model like games years ago. This will die faster than SWTOR, and that was carried by the fact it was, you know, Star Wars. Now I wonder how long FFXIV will last. Probably indefinitely, because of how long FFXI has been going on with a low, niche playerbase. I just do not see how you can offer a subscription based game in present time anymore.
This is where we get different tastes I guess. I was a huge fan of AO. Just not as many people played it back then so I don't use it as a reference. But to me, Yeah, AO fit's, I loved it. I
I will comment short and sweet, seeing there is a sea of replies already.
I applaud them for deciding to stick to the subscription model. I prefer to sub. to a game if the content and quality is there. This brings me to my next thought.... I for one do not find much interest in this game. It reminds me of WoW and I am one gamer that is done with the WoW type games. I do like their concept on housing though.
My sub. dollars will be going to FFXIV right now. I have played all the betas and with much improvement, I am hooked. I am one of those MMOers that like story content (great story content) in my MMO. SE has done a great job of reviving the 1.0 model and bringing it back to what I see as one of the greatest MMOs of 2013!
Originally posted by BillMurphy I'm surprised there's so little talk about the 2014 release date delay...
stay on topic!
My problem is mostly the Price... it might not be that much for most people but there's a thing that kinda disgusts me. This Models smells like this for me:
"-Umm yea... the game is released we put so much money in it so lets just have it back fast okay?
-Well, of course we can sell the game for money... lets make it 60 bucks!
-Yea that's fine but more money would be nicer!
-Well... make it 120 then
-Naaah thats too much!
- Well some games charge player for playing the game monthly!
-Cool do that aswell!"
What i mean is there are B2P games cheaper/same box price as this ... and there are P2P games withouth a box price/lower box price and they're GOOD games... but paying the price for the game AND then paying monthly? (and i dont care what people say, after you payed 60 bucks for the first month (not the game, you dont get the game since if you stop paying you cant play it) 15 is a tad too much IMO). If it would be B2P with the same price or P2P with the same monthly fee without the box price, i think it would be fine... but both at the same time? Sounds a bit greedy for me. Well it really doesnt matter for me i'm waiting on EQn and even more on ESO, but it would've been nice to try Wildstar... not at this cost:S (And stop saying that 60 + monthly15 bucks is nothing, it might be in some countries but you forget, they sell it for the same price in countries where people get much less money for their job)
Originally posted by kaz350 I'm SHOCKED at the amount of people that would perfer F2P over a sub...for $15 you get the ENTIRE GAME !! You dont have to pay for your helmet show/not show your last name visable Special story quest mounts compainions flavor gear bag space bank bag space pets clearly P2W style enchants Passes to PVP Passes to Dungeons Passes to Raid Dyes for gear items to change your gear to other looks Need I go on? You people are INSANE!!!
This is absolutely ridiculous. You're trying to paint the whole f2p market with a broad brush. Just because that's swtor's model, doesn't mean it's like that for all mmos. Rift is one example where the f2p model is executed really well. (the only complaint i have about it, is that pre-raid gear is p2w)
Originally posted by observer I'm surprised some of you are praising the subscription model. You're deluding yourselves if you think a sub. game gives more quality. Tell me this, how many mmos have you quit within the first mmo of trying them out? Did you complain about end-game? If so, shouldn't the subscription model provide the quality for end-game? Exactly.
The delusion comes from those who expect something for nothing. A steady revenue stream helps the company project its needs into the future, and thus allows better content generation. Notice I said *allows*, not mandates. Yoshi P made a very compelling argument in favor of subscriptions.
As for the other, if you have nothing invested in a game, its a lot easier to just leave and chase after the next F2P shiny that comes along (and the next, and the next, and the next...). But given the current ADD generation and its well known short attention span, and thus low skill ceiling, thats only to be expected. But lets not encourage such antics, when it can be avoided.
Originally posted by Wraithone Originally posted by observer I'm surprised some of you are praising the subscription model. You're deluding yourselves if you think a sub. game gives more quality. Tell me this, how many mmos have you quit within the first mmo of trying them out? Did you complain about end-game? If so, shouldn't the subscription model provide the quality for end-game? Exactly.
Here here! What he said.
There goes all my interest for the game!!
Guess Carbine DOES want that embarrassing countdown to F2P conversion. Sad.
Wild Star isn't going for a steady revenue stream. They are trying to go for a cash grab.
a B2P boxed fee
a P2P subscription Fee
a real money transaction option
Talk about double dipping.
They probably know all to well, they can't sustain that indefinitely. and will alter the boxed fee or the sub fee or implement a Cash Shop at some point.
If this game turns out to have an awesome endgame, I'd be willing to pay the $60, I'd pay the $15/mo. But I pull the breaks on RMT.
People on this topic generally comment based on their own personal preferences for the type of pay model. This varies widely of course but it really not very important.
The important thing is that it is almost impossible to imagine that a somewhat odd looking game from an generally unknown developer based on an original IP is going to be able to attract a lot of people willing to pay a hefty box price plus a monthly sub.
When was the last time a game with an unknown IP succeeded with this pay model, even for the short term? City of Heroes? That was 8 years ago. A lot has changed since then. There are a LOT more gaming options out there, many at very low prices.
The Wildstar developers are delusional. They seem to think they are Blizzard circa 2005.
A little extra time spent on development if the Game needs it won't go a miss. I guess the we want it now crowd will whine , and it gives the why isn't it using the imaginary free to pay/play model.
Good games especially MMOs are far and few between these days so if they can pack in some extra content or improved game play elements then it can only benefit the game overall.
________________________________________________________Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
Originally posted by Scalpless Interesting. I must say I still don't see the target audience of this game. People who want a WoW-that's-not-WoW? Is there enough of them? Personally, I attribute WoW's decline in subs to people getting tired of the whole model, not the game itself. I thought they were going to make a sub-free WoW with some nice additional features, but I guess not. Maybe I'm just not interested in the whole "quest to endgame and raid" model and don't understand what the people who are want, but... eh. Right now FFXIV seems to be a better choice for group-focused content, unless you're someone who loves raiding.
Add to that:
Wildstar is Sci-fi, not fantasy (ffivx is)
Wildstar has more action based combat compared to ffivx having the old tab target with 2.5 gcd.
There are more reasons I am sure, but I don't see the difference being raiding or not.
MMO Vet since AOL Neverwinter Nights circa 1992. My MMO beat up your MMO. =S