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  • caetftlcaetftl Los Angeles, CAPosts: 358Member
    Originally posted by Amjoco
    Originally posted by caetftl
    Originally posted by laokoko
    Originally posted by observer
    Originally posted by caetftl
    Originally posted by Slappy1

    All I'm seeing here is damage control by the same people

    The numbers are out and they were worded to give GW2 a sales number advantage.WoW sold more in 8 month's in a time that had less than a quarter of the people playing mmo's as today

    The server capacity can be lowered just as easily as raised.You have proof they continue too raise them?

    It's been known for like over 6 month's that servers show a total of the the characters on that server,not just logged in,Anet said it a long time ago in the forums.

    But yea,let's just keep spewing this pro GW2 propaganda too try and keep the game in the headlines.

     

    Nice try!

    You make a very good point, I actually remember them talking about servers showing total characters and not just logged on.

    Why don't you two find a link and quote, so we can all see it.  Then this issue will be settled.

    You want to know the truth, Those thing beside server listing means precisely nothing.  And it will always remain nothing unless Anet disclose the truth.

    And why won't Anet disclose the truth?  Because of people like caetftl.  They want to nit picking on anything.

    If GW2 is so bad, how many better games are out there?  Thats the truth right?  There isn't even that many mmorpg with higher population than GW2.  Not only that GW2 is B2P.  Suddenly a very bargain game for people without that much money get dumped down just because they loss 20% sales.

    Actually they don't disclose the truth, because they aren't honest.  They would like to manipulate things, and make carefully worded statements (intended to mislead) to make their game look better than it is, so that more people give them money.  They did this on the chinese website (native speakers pointed out how misleading it was in how it was worded) and they did it with the manifesto.

    You can tell when a game is doing well, because for them honesty actually helps them grow.  Just look at league of legends, it is more than happy to tell you how many active players/accounts it has, because all of the stats are superb. 

    Anet knows they can't be transparent, because things aren't as great as they project... the moment they start giving real numbers, it starts making it easy to paint a picture on how the game is doing. 

    I can tell you that sales dropping by 20% is NEVER a good thing, it is NEVER a sign that things are improving. 

    Of course "sales" are going to drop, the box isn't selling as much. Profit is what counts and that comes from folks playing and buying in the trading post. The company is doing very well without having to let any employees go after the first year. That is pretty much unheard of in the industry. That fact alone means that someone is making money enough to pay the bills, and keep employees and fans happy. 

    But you don't know how much profit they are making...... For example if they are only making 500k profit a month, that wouldn't be a worthwhile investment to ncsoft long term.  The change in direction, the 20% drop in sales, the PR blitz in response to all of that, these are all indicative of a company trying to right a sinking ship.  You don't change directions, if the direction you were going in was successful. 

  • MeowheadMeowhead New Carlisle, INPosts: 3,716Member
    Originally posted by caetftl

    But you don't know how much profit they are making...... For example if they are only making 500k profit a month, that wouldn't be a worthwhile investment to ncsoft long term.  The change in direction, the 20% drop in sales, the PR blitz in response to all of that, these are all indicative of a company trying to right a sinking ship.  You don't change directions, if the direction you were going in was successful. 

    ... were you supposing that GW2 would continue selling new copies at an increasing rate, forever?

    Nobody thought that.  Ever.

    EVERYBODY with the faintest bit of common sense knew that as time goes on, the money coming in would drop, because they get their biggest hit of money from box sales.  Even if the incoming people outstripped the leaving people, that's still a normal projection.

    You baffle me.  It's pretty self-explanatory logic.

    You still seem to think GW2 has a sub.  Or that it's a F2P game where the only money they make is from the cash shop.

    You're not taking into account that box sales will drop naturally as the amount of people who haven't bought it who wanted to decreases.  This is perfectly normal for the VAST majority of video games, even most successful titles.

    Even WoW follows the exact same drop in income.  Yes, they make a ton of money, but they make even MORE on the quarter when the boxes first sell.

  • caetftlcaetftl Los Angeles, CAPosts: 358Member
    Originally posted by Meowhead
    Originally posted by caetftl

    But you don't know how much profit they are making...... For example if they are only making 500k profit a month, that wouldn't be a worthwhile investment to ncsoft long term.  The change in direction, the 20% drop in sales, the PR blitz in response to all of that, these are all indicative of a company trying to right a sinking ship.  You don't change directions, if the direction you were going in was successful. 

    ... were you supposing that GW2 would continue selling new copies at an increasing rate, forever?

    Nobody thought that.  Ever.

    EVERYBODY with the faintest bit of common sense knew that as time goes on, the money coming in would drop, because they get their biggest hit of money from box sales.  Even if the incoming people outstripped the leaving people, that's still a normal projection.

    You baffle me.  It's pretty self-explanatory logic.

    You still seem to think GW2 has a sub.  Or that it's a F2P game where the only money they make is from the cash shop.

    You're not taking into account that box sales will drop naturally as the amount of people who haven't bought it who wanted to decreases.  This is perfectly normal for the VAST majority of video games, even most successful titles.

    Even WoW follows the exact same drop in income.  Yes, they make a ton of money, but they make even MORE on the quarter when the boxes first sell.

    Can you show me where i supposed that gw2 would continue selling new copies at an increasing rate?  Can you prove that the majority of their revenue is from box sales in q2 at all? 

    NCsoft must not have any common sense by your logic, because i'm pretty sure their goal was for the game to be so successful that it reached critical mass and would increase from quarter to quarter after the initial boom and drop, because at critical mass their cash shop would be utilized by more and more people.  I'm pretty sure cash shop games try to increase revenue over time through getting more people to spend in their cash shop. 

    I can only tell you that your logic is flawed.

    Can you show me where i said anything that implied that i think gw2 has a sub?  Or where I implied that I think it is a game that only makes money from cash shop? 

    I've most definitely taken into account that the popularity of the game would taper off, as i've indicated in countless posts. 

    I think what you don't realize about WoW is how rapidly it grew, it made money from initial box sales but it actually kept growing and making more and more money, it didn't have ANY drop off until the second expansion.  So no, wow doesn't follow the EXACT same drop in income, it actually took its own very unique path, which is why it is WoW. 

  • MeowheadMeowhead New Carlisle, INPosts: 3,716Member
    Originally posted by caetftl

    Can you show me where i supposed that gw2 would continue selling new copies at an increasing rate?  Can you prove that the majority of their revenue is from box sales in q2 at all? 

    NCsoft must not have any common sense by your logic, because i'm pretty sure their goal was for the game to be so successful that it reached critical mass and would increase from quarter to quarter after the initial boom and drop, because at critical mass their cash shop would be utilized by more and more people.  I'm pretty sure cash shop games try to increase revenue over time through getting more people to spend in their cash shop. 

    I can only tell you that your logic is flawed.

    Can you show me where i said anything that implied that i think gw2 has a sub?  Or where I implied that I think it is a game that only makes money from cash shop? 

    I've most definitely taken into account that the popularity of the game would taper off, as i've indicated in countless posts. 

    I think what you don't realize about WoW is how rapidly it grew, it made money from initial box sales but it actually kept growing and making more and more money, it didn't have ANY drop off until the second expansion.  So no, wow doesn't follow the EXACT same drop in income, it actually took its own very unique path, which is why it is WoW. 

    WoW didn't have a drop off in profit because sub.

    GW2 has a fairly non-invasive cash shop.  Lots of people playing don't buy anything.

    WoW DID have a drop off in box sales.  It went up, peaked, started dropping.  It's not like they sold 1 million boxes the first quarter, 1.5 million the next, 2 million the next, 2.5 million the one after that.

    You really like conjecture though, and dealing with it as facts.  I'm pretty much finished here.  I'm smart enough to realize that we don't have enough information to be able to accurately gauge what's going on, you insist you know exactly what it means.  More power to you.  You like putting your own spin on the numbers, and that makes you happy, so have fun with it.

    And you want me to point out where you said that stuff?  It's the only way that your evidence is proof.  I assumed since you seemed to think you were proving things, you were internally consistent and just ignorant.  Since it's a cash shop, it's just guesses, but you are happy with that.  Just stop saying you're proving anything because you're just guessing.

  • AmjocoAmjoco Layton, UTPosts: 4,779Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by caetftl
    Originally posted by Amjoco
    Originally posted by caetftl
    Originally posted by laokoko
    Originally posted by observer
    Originally posted by caetftl
    Originally posted by Slappy1

    All I'm seeing here is damage control by the same people

    The numbers are out and they were worded to give GW2 a sales number advantage.WoW sold more in 8 month's in a time that had less than a quarter of the people playing mmo's as today

    The server capacity can be lowered just as easily as raised.You have proof they continue too raise them?

    It's been known for like over 6 month's that servers show a total of the the characters on that server,not just logged in,Anet said it a long time ago in the forums.

    But yea,let's just keep spewing this pro GW2 propaganda too try and keep the game in the headlines.

     

    Nice try!

    You make a very good point, I actually remember them talking about servers showing total characters and not just logged on.

    Why don't you two find a link and quote, so we can all see it.  Then this issue will be settled.

    You want to know the truth, Those thing beside server listing means precisely nothing.  And it will always remain nothing unless Anet disclose the truth.

    And why won't Anet disclose the truth?  Because of people like caetftl.  They want to nit picking on anything.

    If GW2 is so bad, how many better games are out there?  Thats the truth right?  There isn't even that many mmorpg with higher population than GW2.  Not only that GW2 is B2P.  Suddenly a very bargain game for people without that much money get dumped down just because they loss 20% sales.

    Actually they don't disclose the truth, because they aren't honest.  They would like to manipulate things, and make carefully worded statements (intended to mislead) to make their game look better than it is, so that more people give them money.  They did this on the chinese website (native speakers pointed out how misleading it was in how it was worded) and they did it with the manifesto.

    You can tell when a game is doing well, because for them honesty actually helps them grow.  Just look at league of legends, it is more than happy to tell you how many active players/accounts it has, because all of the stats are superb. 

    Anet knows they can't be transparent, because things aren't as great as they project... the moment they start giving real numbers, it starts making it easy to paint a picture on how the game is doing. 

    I can tell you that sales dropping by 20% is NEVER a good thing, it is NEVER a sign that things are improving. 

    Of course "sales" are going to drop, the box isn't selling as much. Profit is what counts and that comes from folks playing and buying in the trading post. The company is doing very well without having to let any employees go after the first year. That is pretty much unheard of in the industry. That fact alone means that someone is making money enough to pay the bills, and keep employees and fans happy. 

    But you don't know how much profit they are making...... For example if they are only making 500k profit a month, that wouldn't be a worthwhile investment to ncsoft long term.  The change in direction, the 20% drop in sales, the PR blitz in response to all of that, these are all indicative of a company trying to right a sinking ship.  You don't change directions, if the direction you were going in was successful. 

    You are going off speculations as am I. I just go by history, and in this market they shut down servers, and start cutting employees when things start going wrong. Neither of these have happened.

    The 20% drop was because they aren't selling the boxes like they did with the first 2-3 million, of course the profit is going down. McDonalds isn't making money from opening ten thousand new stores (boxes) this year, they make the money from the stores (trading post) they have open. Give the players the game (store) and let them line your pocket with profit from the cash shop.

    Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.

  • Gaia_HunterGaia_Hunter BristolPosts: 2,818Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by caetftl

     It was the chinese publisher of GW2, people that anet are in business with, people that are directly tied to the chinese release of gw2.  The 2.5million logins a week was very telling though... based on common mmo habits that puts the game at approximately 300-600k active players, which basically matches up with what my sources have told me. 

    Actually the NCSoft deals with the Chinese publisher.

    And if you don't know to release a MMORPG in China there are some strict constraints, including who can publish it - that is why NCSoft or Blizzard don;t publish their own games directly in China.

    Second, what sources do you have? Who are you? Without credentials your sources are worth 0.

    Of course you believe GW2 has retention rate of 10% based on third party tools that you believe are accurate.

    I hope you aren't talking about tools like XFire that show WoW lost some 80% of its players in the last 2 years or show that GW2 has around half of the players of WoW (which would mean something like 1.5-2 million players) or 4 times the players of EVE (which would make mean GW2 had something like 1.6-2 million players).

    Or tools like Raptr that show that Rift is bigger than WoW (lol at that).

     

    It is also interesting that somehow GW2 is a dishonest company that doesn't release number of players, but somehow it gave the numbers to the Chinese publishers that were so impressed with what apparently is 300K-600K active players, based on some formula that tells how many times a person logs in a game.

    It is also very interesting that all the other translated bits by google translator seem fine and even ?????? translate as weekly active users, but the ?? that translate as people by the same google translator is wrong and someone said it was "hits" instead.

     

    Currently playing: GW2
    Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders

  • FaelsunFaelsun Brandon, MSPosts: 492Member
    Originally posted by Meowhead
    Originally posted by Faelsun
    Well according to press releases and financial statements, after the initial sales Lineage 2 is outselling GW2 in Asian Markets and GW2 sales dropped so much in NM that L2 also is making more profit than GW2. Lets see L2 has a population of  a little under a million players. So let me take a wild guess and say GW2 is dealing with less than half that. 

    Uh.

    GW2 isn't being sold in Asian markets at all.  EVERY game that's being sold in Asian markets is outselling GW2 there. :B

    Also, Lineage and LIneage 2 aren't actually the same game.  Lineage is the one that has more total sales than GW2.  It is the biggest MMORPG in Korea, and a big game in Asia in general. 

    If it's true that Lineage 2 has a population of a little under a million players, using your own math, GW2's profits of over double means that GW2 would be dealing with around 2 million players.  I find that math dubious anyway since they're not using the same kind of pricing model, but hey.  That was YOUR logic, not mine. :)

    No I am not doing cash shop math you are even with tthat  2 million is an overestimation by a long shot. As of Q1 13 GW2 accounted for 21 percent of profits 16 percent was AION and     38 percent was L1. As for Q2

    http://mmofallout.com/ncsoft-q2-2013-finances/

     

    So yes by my logic and ability to look at financial statements GW2 has less players than both Lineage games and maybe even AION at this point. 

     

  • caetftlcaetftl Los Angeles, CAPosts: 358Member
    Originally posted by Meowhead
    Originally posted by caetftl

    Can you show me where i supposed that gw2 would continue selling new copies at an increasing rate?  Can you prove that the majority of their revenue is from box sales in q2 at all? 

    NCsoft must not have any common sense by your logic, because i'm pretty sure their goal was for the game to be so successful that it reached critical mass and would increase from quarter to quarter after the initial boom and drop, because at critical mass their cash shop would be utilized by more and more people.  I'm pretty sure cash shop games try to increase revenue over time through getting more people to spend in their cash shop. 

    I can only tell you that your logic is flawed.

    Can you show me where i said anything that implied that i think gw2 has a sub?  Or where I implied that I think it is a game that only makes money from cash shop? 

    I've most definitely taken into account that the popularity of the game would taper off, as i've indicated in countless posts. 

    I think what you don't realize about WoW is how rapidly it grew, it made money from initial box sales but it actually kept growing and making more and more money, it didn't have ANY drop off until the second expansion.  So no, wow doesn't follow the EXACT same drop in income, it actually took its own very unique path, which is why it is WoW. 

    WoW didn't have a drop off in profit because sub.

    GW2 has a fairly non-invasive cash shop.  Lots of people playing don't buy anything.

    WoW DID have a drop off in box sales.  It went up, peaked, started dropping.  It's not like they sold 1 million boxes the first quarter, 1.5 million the next, 2 million the next, 2.5 million the one after that.

    You really like conjecture though, and dealing with it as facts.  I'm pretty much finished here.  I'm smart enough to realize that we don't have enough information to be able to accurately gauge what's going on, you insist you know exactly what it means.  More power to you.  You like putting your own spin on the numbers, and that makes you happy, so have fun with it.

    And you want me to point out where you said that stuff?  It's the only way that your evidence is proof.  I assumed since you seemed to think you were proving things, you were internally consistent and just ignorant.  Since it's a cash shop, it's just guesses, but you are happy with that.  Just stop saying you're proving anything because you're just guessing.

    WoW didn't have a drop off because the game kept growing.  It didn't get to 13million by having dropoffs, and it started off with less than a million. 

     

    GW2 cash shop being non-invasive is subjective, lots of people buy stuff.

     

    When did wow have a drop off in box sales?  Cataclysm?  Pandaria?  The first expansions were breaking sales records.  WoW kept growing for a long time, it didn't have a drop off until many many years after launch. 

    Again I ask you, can you show me where I said things that implied all the assumptions you claim about my stance on things?  It shouldn't be hard to prove, if I really said such things.  The reality is that I haven't, that is why you haven't been able to provide any quotes to prove things you assume about my stance.

    Also please refrain from the ad hominem attacks. 

    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
    Originally posted by caetftl

     It was the chinese publisher of GW2, people that anet are in business with, people that are directly tied to the chinese release of gw2.  The 2.5million logins a week was very telling though... based on common mmo habits that puts the game at approximately 300-600k active players, which basically matches up with what my sources have told me. 

    Actually the NCSoft deals with the Chinese publisher.

    And if you don't know to release a MMORPG in China there are some strict constraints, including who can publish it - that is why NCSoft or Blizzard don;t publish their own games directly in China.

    Second, what sources do you have? Who are you? Without credentials your sources are worth 0.

    Of course you believe GW2 has retention rate of 10% based on third party tools that you believe are accurate.

    I hope you aren't talking about tools like XFire that show WoW lost some 80% of its players in the last 2 years or show that GW2 has around half of the players of WoW (which would mean something like 1.5-2 million players) or 4 times the players of EVE (which would make mean GW2 had something like 1.6-2 million players).

    Or tools like Raptr that show that Rift is bigger than WoW (lol at that).

     

    Do you have any actual proof that ncsoft is the one dealing with the publisher?  You can't have it both ways, you can't argue that NCsoft has a very hands off approach to gw2, and then just assume that ncsoft is behind anything shady related to the game.  Was ncsoft also responsible for the manifesto? 

    Why would I compromise my sources?  No one with any integrity compromises such things... All I can do is put information out there, people will either absorb it, look at the evidence, and get a better understanding of how things actually are, or they will ignore things and have their own inaccurate perception of how things are.

    300-600k is 10-20% retention rate, please don't talk in hyperbole and just assume the worst number.  My sources are people... not "tools" the third party tools that people use to evaluate mmo popularity, just happen to line up with what is being said, which isn't surprising, because those tools are more often than not, pretty accurate at gauging the health of an mmo. 

    GW2 could very well have half of the players that WoW has, in the west, where Xfire is used.  Most of wow's players are in asia right now. 

     

    Rift had a promotion with raptr.  But anyway, your examples are true in what they say, but obviously subject to interpretation... Anything is subject to interpretation, it just depends how realistic you want to be.  A 20% drop in sales from q1 to q2 is not a good thing... you can interpret it as one, or try to find some convoluted theory as to why it might be a good thing, but the reality of it is that it is NEVER a good thing. 

  • stevebombsquadstevebombsquad Orlando, FLPosts: 842Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by caetftl
    Originally posted by Meowhead
    Originally posted by caetftl

    Can you show me where i supposed that gw2 would continue selling new copies at an increasing rate?  Can you prove that the majority of their revenue is from box sales in q2 at all? 

    NCsoft must not have any common sense by your logic, because i'm pretty sure their goal was for the game to be so successful that it reached critical mass and would increase from quarter to quarter after the initial boom and drop, because at critical mass their cash shop would be utilized by more and more people.  I'm pretty sure cash shop games try to increase revenue over time through getting more people to spend in their cash shop. 

    I can only tell you that your logic is flawed.

    Can you show me where i said anything that implied that i think gw2 has a sub?  Or where I implied that I think it is a game that only makes money from cash shop? 

    I've most definitely taken into account that the popularity of the game would taper off, as i've indicated in countless posts. 

    I think what you don't realize about WoW is how rapidly it grew, it made money from initial box sales but it actually kept growing and making more and more money, it didn't have ANY drop off until the second expansion.  So no, wow doesn't follow the EXACT same drop in income, it actually took its own very unique path, which is why it is WoW. 

    WoW didn't have a drop off in profit because sub.

    GW2 has a fairly non-invasive cash shop.  Lots of people playing don't buy anything.

    WoW DID have a drop off in box sales.  It went up, peaked, started dropping.  It's not like they sold 1 million boxes the first quarter, 1.5 million the next, 2 million the next, 2.5 million the one after that.

    You really like conjecture though, and dealing with it as facts.  I'm pretty much finished here.  I'm smart enough to realize that we don't have enough information to be able to accurately gauge what's going on, you insist you know exactly what it means.  More power to you.  You like putting your own spin on the numbers, and that makes you happy, so have fun with it.

    And you want me to point out where you said that stuff?  It's the only way that your evidence is proof.  I assumed since you seemed to think you were proving things, you were internally consistent and just ignorant.  Since it's a cash shop, it's just guesses, but you are happy with that.  Just stop saying you're proving anything because you're just guessing.

    WoW didn't have a drop off because the game kept growing.  It didn't get to 13million by having dropoffs, and it started off with less than a million. 

     

    GW2 cash shop being non-invasive is subjective, lots of people buy stuff.

     

    When did wow have a drop off in box sales?  Cataclysm?  Pandaria?  The first expansions were breaking sales records.  WoW kept growing for a long time, it didn't have a drop off until many many years after launch. 

    Again I ask you, can you show me where I said things that implied all the assumptions you claim about my stance on things?  It shouldn't be hard to prove, if I really said such things.  The reality is that I haven't, that is why you haven't been able to provide any quotes to prove things you assume about my stance.

    Also please refrain from the ad hominem attacks. 

    WoW did well for its time.... too well, and the method of releasing it was much different. WoW didn't release in the UK until like a month after the US, and in the EU, two months after. They halted the shipment of new boxes in the US in the end of December 2004 for a few months because they were unprepared and didn't have the infrastructure to support the game. Also, there were no digital sales back then.

    James T. Kirk: All she's got isn't good enough! What else ya got?

  • Gaia_HunterGaia_Hunter BristolPosts: 2,818Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by caetftl
     

    But you don't know how much profit they are making...... For example if they are only making 500k profit a month, that wouldn't be a worthwhile investment to ncsoft long term.  The change in direction, the 20% drop in sales, the PR blitz in response to all of that, these are all indicative of a company trying to right a sinking ship.  You don't change directions, if the direction you were going in was successful. 

    SWTOR wasn't generating expected revenue - people were fired 4 months after release.

    TSW didn't reach the numbers expected - people were fired 2-3 months after release.

    Storm Legion wasn't what Trion expected - trion fired some people and went free to play.

    Tera wasn't so hot in Europe - people got cut in Europe.

    Warhammer online - layoffs at Mythic in January 2009.

    These things don't take 1 year to be implemented.

    In this industry, studios that aren't making a profit don't increase their staff numbers.

    Currently playing: GW2
    Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders

  • nolic1nolic1 Kingman, AZPosts: 687Member Uncommon

    http://www.arena.net/

     

    If Arena Net was not doing good with Guild Wars 2 would they have a hire list as shown here. No they would not they would be letting go of alot of the 200+ employees.

    image
    To me I enjoy gaming I dont play to be uber I play to have fun. If a game is not fun to me guess what I move on and play something else till I find one that is. When I find that great game and not sure if in my life time there will be one I hope it has everything I want in an mmo.

  • AmjocoAmjoco Layton, UTPosts: 4,779Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
    Originally posted by caetftl
     

    But you don't know how much profit they are making...... For example if they are only making 500k profit a month, that wouldn't be a worthwhile investment to ncsoft long term.  The change in direction, the 20% drop in sales, the PR blitz in response to all of that, these are all indicative of a company trying to right a sinking ship.  You don't change directions, if the direction you were going in was successful. 

    SWTOR wasn't generating expected revenue - people were fired 4 months after release.

    TSW didn't reach the numbers expected - people were fired 2-3 months after release.

    Storm Legion wasn't what Trion expected - trion fired some people and went free to play.

    Tera wasn't so hot in Europe - people got cut in Europe.

    Warhammer online - layoffs at Mythic in January 2009.

    These things don't take 1 year to be implemented.

    In this industry, studios that aren't making a profit don't increase their staff numbers.

    Nice and I agree, but he won't get that!  He is debating with 3 to 4 people already, and he is one of those that will never be wrong. He will find flaws in all your facts, and what amazes me is that he doesn't understand why there is a 20% profit loss.

    Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.

  • stevebombsquadstevebombsquad Orlando, FLPosts: 842Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nolic1

    http://www.arena.net/

     

    If Arena Net was not doing good with Guild Wars 2 would they have a hire list as shown here. No they would not they would be letting go of alot of the 200+ employees.

    A hiring list can be indicative of a lot of things and isn't always a sign of how a company is doing.  ArenaNet is known to have a large turnover rate. It also pays less than a lot of major studios. Read their profile on glassdoor.com. I am not saying that it is doing bad either so don't jump to that conclusion.

    James T. Kirk: All she's got isn't good enough! What else ya got?

  • Gaia_HunterGaia_Hunter BristolPosts: 2,818Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by caetftl
     
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
    Originally posted by caetftl

     It was the chinese publisher of GW2, people that anet are in business with, people that are directly tied to the chinese release of gw2.  The 2.5million logins a week was very telling though... based on common mmo habits that puts the game at approximately 300-600k active players, which basically matches up with what my sources have told me. 

    Actually the NCSoft deals with the Chinese publisher.

    And if you don't know to release a MMORPG in China there are some strict constraints, including who can publish it - that is why NCSoft or Blizzard don;t publish their own games directly in China.

    Second, what sources do you have? Who are you? Without credentials your sources are worth 0.

    Of course you believe GW2 has retention rate of 10% based on third party tools that you believe are accurate.

    I hope you aren't talking about tools like XFire that show WoW lost some 80% of its players in the last 2 years or show that GW2 has around half of the players of WoW (which would mean something like 1.5-2 million players) or 4 times the players of EVE (which would make mean GW2 had something like 1.6-2 million players).

    Or tools like Raptr that show that Rift is bigger than WoW (lol at that).

     

    Do you have any actual proof that ncsoft is the one dealing with the publisher?  You can't have it both ways, you can't argue that NCsoft has a very hands off approach to gw2, and then just assume that ncsoft is behind anything shady related to the game.  Was ncsoft also responsible for the manifesto? 

    Why would I compromise my sources?  No one with any integrity compromises such things... All I can do is put information out there, people will either absorb it, look at the evidence, and get a better understanding of how things actually are, or they will ignore things and have their own inaccurate perception of how things are.

    300-600k is 10-20% retention rate, please don't talk in hyperbole and just assume the worst number.  My sources are people... not "tools" the third party tools that people use to evaluate mmo popularity, just happen to line up with what is being said, which isn't surprising, because those tools are more often than not, pretty accurate at gauging the health of an mmo. 

    GW2 could very well have half of the players that WoW has, in the west, where Xfire is used.  Most of wow's players are in asia right now. 

     

    Rift had a promotion with raptr.  But anyway, your examples are true in what they say, but obviously subject to interpretation... Anything is subject to interpretation, it just depends how realistic you want to be.  A 20% drop in sales from q1 to q2 is not a good thing... you can interpret it as one, or try to find some convoluted theory as to why it might be a good thing, but the reality of it is that it is NEVER a good thing. 

    Isn't that you?

    image

    I even see under 10%.

     

    Of course it is NCSoft that deals with the Chinese market, just like they deal with the Korean market.

    Western Market you have NCSoft West and NCSoft Europe.

    Everything publishing related is NCSoft, that owns Arenanet 100%.

    The manifesto is Arenanet and most of it, especially the older written one (https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/guild-wars-2-design-manifesto/), seems to be a fair description of the game. Of course there are always stuff that change from initial idea to end product or that don't work so well. The video one was clearly something to cause impact and it did, including I suspect much of the visceral hate some players have for the game since how can someone dare to say that the games they have been playing for years have problems.

    Currently playing: GW2
    Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders

  • nolic1nolic1 Kingman, AZPosts: 687Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by stevebombsquad
    Originally posted by nolic1

    http://www.arena.net/

     

    If Arena Net was not doing good with Guild Wars 2 would they have a hire list as shown here. No they would not they would be letting go of alot of the 200+ employees.

    A hiring list can be indicative of a lot of things and isn't always a sign of how a company is doing.  ArenaNet is known to have a large turnover rate. It also pays less than a lot of major studios. Read their profile on glassdoor.com. I am not saying that it is doing bad either so don't jump to that conclusion.

    Sorry I I dont see where that site plays into the fact there hiring all the time that site has 12 reviews by people and nothing else. And If thats the case look  at Wal-marts turn over rate I know this well 3 to 6 people a day at most stores and I know that for fact.

    As for the rest if you are not making income you don't hire period you lay off till you get your finances right I ran serveral buisnesses before not huge companies but like a smaller and not once did I hire when profits were down.

    image
    To me I enjoy gaming I dont play to be uber I play to have fun. If a game is not fun to me guess what I move on and play something else till I find one that is. When I find that great game and not sure if in my life time there will be one I hope it has everything I want in an mmo.

  • caetftlcaetftl Los Angeles, CAPosts: 358Member
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
    Originally posted by caetftl
     
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
    Originally posted by caetftl

     It was the chinese publisher of GW2, people that anet are in business with, people that are directly tied to the chinese release of gw2.  The 2.5million logins a week was very telling though... based on common mmo habits that puts the game at approximately 300-600k active players, which basically matches up with what my sources have told me. 

    Actually the NCSoft deals with the Chinese publisher.

    And if you don't know to release a MMORPG in China there are some strict constraints, including who can publish it - that is why NCSoft or Blizzard don;t publish their own games directly in China.

    Second, what sources do you have? Who are you? Without credentials your sources are worth 0.

    Of course you believe GW2 has retention rate of 10% based on third party tools that you believe are accurate.

    I hope you aren't talking about tools like XFire that show WoW lost some 80% of its players in the last 2 years or show that GW2 has around half of the players of WoW (which would mean something like 1.5-2 million players) or 4 times the players of EVE (which would make mean GW2 had something like 1.6-2 million players).

    Or tools like Raptr that show that Rift is bigger than WoW (lol at that).

     

    Do you have any actual proof that ncsoft is the one dealing with the publisher?  You can't have it both ways, you can't argue that NCsoft has a very hands off approach to gw2, and then just assume that ncsoft is behind anything shady related to the game.  Was ncsoft also responsible for the manifesto? 

    Why would I compromise my sources?  No one with any integrity compromises such things... All I can do is put information out there, people will either absorb it, look at the evidence, and get a better understanding of how things actually are, or they will ignore things and have their own inaccurate perception of how things are.

    300-600k is 10-20% retention rate, please don't talk in hyperbole and just assume the worst number.  My sources are people... not "tools" the third party tools that people use to evaluate mmo popularity, just happen to line up with what is being said, which isn't surprising, because those tools are more often than not, pretty accurate at gauging the health of an mmo. 

    GW2 could very well have half of the players that WoW has, in the west, where Xfire is used.  Most of wow's players are in asia right now. 

     

    Rift had a promotion with raptr.  But anyway, your examples are true in what they say, but obviously subject to interpretation... Anything is subject to interpretation, it just depends how realistic you want to be.  A 20% drop in sales from q1 to q2 is not a good thing... you can interpret it as one, or try to find some convoluted theory as to why it might be a good thing, but the reality of it is that it is NEVER a good thing. 

    Isn't that you?

    image

    I even see under 10%.

     

    Of course it is NCSoft that deals with the Chinese market, just like they deal with the Korean market.

    Western Market you have NCSoft West and NCSoft Europe.

    Everything publishing related is NCSoft, that owns Arenanet 100%.

    The manifesto is Arenanet and most of it, especially the older written one (https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/guild-wars-2-design-manifesto/), seems to be a fair description of the game. Of course there are always stuff that change from initial idea to end product or that don't work so well. The video one was clearly something to cause impact and it did, including I suspect much of the visceral hate some players have for the game since how can someone dare to say that the games they have been playing for years have problems.

    Yes that is referring to the third party metrics... which imply the game has less than 10% retention rate...  Notice I say "decently" accurate and don't actually claim less than 10% as my own opinion.  I'm just glad some people knew immediately that 2.5million active players claim was bogus... but sad that many thought it was even feasible. 

    Well i'd ask you for proof that ncsoft is the one that went into contractual talks with the chinese publisher, but I know you simply won't have any. 

    As for your opinion on the manifesto, the video manifesto was horribly inaccurate and deceptive... sure that's only my opinion but the game is my proof.  You were still collecting wolf tails though, that's for sure!  You didn't really foster any significant change in the world, that's for sure, and the personal story was not even close to what they acted like it would be. 

     

    Originally posted by nolic1
    Originally posted by stevebombsquad
    Originally posted by nolic1

    http://www.arena.net/

     

    If Arena Net was not doing good with Guild Wars 2 would they have a hire list as shown here. No they would not they would be letting go of alot of the 200+ employees.

    A hiring list can be indicative of a lot of things and isn't always a sign of how a company is doing.  ArenaNet is known to have a large turnover rate. It also pays less than a lot of major studios. Read their profile on glassdoor.com. I am not saying that it is doing bad either so don't jump to that conclusion.

    Sorry I I dont see where that site plays into the fact there hiring all the time that site has 12 reviews by people and nothing else. And If thats the case look  at Wal-marts turn over rate I know this well 3 to 6 people a day at most stores and I know that for fact.

    As for the rest if you are not making income you don't hire period you lay off till you get your finances right I ran serveral buisnesses before not huge companies but like a smaller and not once did I hire when profits were down.

    Maybe they are hiring all of the time because they have such a turnover rate lol.  Ding

  • stevebombsquadstevebombsquad Orlando, FLPosts: 842Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nolic1
    Originally posted by stevebombsquad
    Originally posted by nolic1

    http://www.arena.net/

     

    If Arena Net was not doing good with Guild Wars 2 would they have a hire list as shown here. No they would not they would be letting go of alot of the 200+ employees.

    A hiring list can be indicative of a lot of things and isn't always a sign of how a company is doing.  ArenaNet is known to have a large turnover rate. It also pays less than a lot of major studios. Read their profile on glassdoor.com. I am not saying that it is doing bad either so don't jump to that conclusion.

    Sorry I I dont see where that site plays into the fact there hiring all the time that site has 12 reviews by people and nothing else. And If thats the case look  at Wal-marts turn over rate I know this well 3 to 6 people a day at most stores and I know that for fact.

    As for the rest if you are not making income you don't hire period you lay off till you get your finances right I ran serveral buisnesses before not huge companies but like a smaller and not once did I hire when profits were down.

    That is just one site. You can google and find others. They seem to treat their people well though. The second statement you made isn't necessarily true either. Especially in a company that relies on a sole product as their revenue stream. I worked in a company that tried to save itself by hiring more people and improving our product. We were a subsidiary of one of the largest defense contractors in the US. We increased our company size by almost 50%, We made the necessary breakthroughs, but unfortunately for us, our competitors did it sooner and we lost our contract which ironically enough went to a small German company. Again, I am not saying that the company is doing bad, but things aren't always what they seem. People here make arguments based on conjecture or their personal experiences mixed with opinions. No one will ever know what is really going on until Anet releases the actual numbers.

    James T. Kirk: All she's got isn't good enough! What else ya got?

  • laokokolaokoko TaipeiPosts: 2,003Member
    Originally posted by Faelsun
    Well according to press releases and financial statements, after the initial sales Lineage 2 is outselling GW2 in Asian Markets and GW2 sales dropped so much in NM that L2 also is making more profit than GW2. Lets see L2 has a population of  a little under a million players. So let me take a wild guess and say GW2 is dealing with less than half that. 

    Dude, stop comparing to Lineage.  There are only 1 western published mmorpg more profitable than lineage for the last 10 years.  That's called wow.

    So fill free to dismiss GW2 because it is less profitable than lineage.  You might as well dismiss every single mmorpg made in the US or Europe, because no game compare to lineage.

    For the last 10 years, the most profitable mmorpg look something like this.  First is Wow, the rest are some crappy f2p chinese mmoprg you never heard of, and lineage.  That is the actually truth. 

     

    The most profitable mmorpg except wow are actually games no one in this forum actually heard of.  Because the chinese market are so big, they can make any game with cashshop and be more profitable.  Lineage probably stays top 5 in the most profitable mmorpg for the last decade every year.

  • laokokolaokoko TaipeiPosts: 2,003Member
    Originally posted by Faelsun

    So yes by my logic and ability to look at financial statements GW2 has less players than both Lineage games and maybe even AION at this point. 

     

    And what's the big deal.  I don't think you realize how successful lineage is.

    Also you are comparing a B2P game to a subscription game(depend on the region).

    But you are right to an extend.  GW2 probably have less people than lineage.

  • laokokolaokoko TaipeiPosts: 2,003Member
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
    Originally posted by caetftl

     It was the chinese publisher of GW2, people that anet are in business with, people that are directly tied to the chinese release of gw2.  The 2.5million logins a week was very telling though... based on common mmo habits that puts the game at approximately 300-600k active players, which basically matches up with what my sources have told me. 

    Actually the NCSoft deals with the Chinese publisher.

    And if you don't know to release a MMORPG in China there are some strict constraints, including who can publish it - that is why NCSoft or Blizzard don;t publish their own games directly in China.

    Second, what sources do you have? Who are you? Without credentials your sources are worth 0.

    Of course you believe GW2 has retention rate of 10% based on third party tools that you believe are accurate.

    I hope you aren't talking about tools like XFire that show WoW lost some 80% of its players in the last 2 years or show that GW2 has around half of the players of WoW (which would mean something like 1.5-2 million players) or 4 times the players of EVE (which would make mean GW2 had something like 1.6-2 million players).

    Or tools like Raptr that show that Rift is bigger than WoW (lol at that).

     

    It is also interesting that somehow GW2 is a dishonest company that doesn't release number of players, but somehow it gave the numbers to the Chinese publishers that were so impressed with what apparently is 300K-600K active players, based on some formula that tells how many times a person logs in a game.

    It is also very interesting that all the other translated bits by google translator seem fine and even ?????? translate as weekly active users, but the ?? that translate as people by the same google translator is wrong and someone said it was "hits" instead.

     

     

    Dude, stop believe anything the Chinese mmorpg marketing tell you.  They always publish the most misleading information ever.

    And please stop imagining any game actually have a good retention rate.  They don't.

    How many people do you think actually play wow for 10 years.  Stop imagine that.  At best it just mean they recoup or people return at a stable rate. 

    For everyone who bought a GW2 box, a high percent stopped playing.  Just like in every single mmorpg.  Even wow have a low retention rate. 

    Think of it this way, I see people spreading rumors how wow sold like 100 million copies, but how many people actually play wow now?  Maybe 3 million? (I didn't count chinese, because chinese players only need to pay by time, they don't need to pay for the initial box).

    Blizzard never want to release their box sales number, because they don't want you to know they dont' have a high retention rate too.  That's why they only publish their sub number.

  • FaelsunFaelsun Brandon, MSPosts: 492Member
    Originally posted by laokoko
    Originally posted by Faelsun
    Well according to press releases and financial statements, after the initial sales Lineage 2 is outselling GW2 in Asian Markets and GW2 sales dropped so much in NM that L2 also is making more profit than GW2. Lets see L2 has a population of  a little under a million players. So let me take a wild guess and say GW2 is dealing with less than half that. 

    Dude, stop comparing to Lineage.  There are only 1 western published mmorpg more profitable than lineage for the last 10 years.  That's called wow.

    So fill free to dismiss GW2 because it is less profitable than lineage.  You might as well dismiss every single mmorpg made in the US or Europe, because no game compare to lineage.

    For the last 10 years, the most profitable mmorpg look something like this.  First is Wow, the rest are some crappy f2p chinese mmoprg you never heard of, and lineage.  That is the actually truth. 

     

    The most profitable mmorpg except wow are actually games no one in this forum actually heard of.  Because the chinese market are so big, they can make any game with cashshop and be more profitable.  Lineage probably stays top 5 in the most profitable mmorpg for the last decade every year.

    That is sort of exactly my point, GW2 is just like every other sub par not quite good as L1 or L2 or even Aion battling it out with the other backbencher mmorpgs fighting over 200 to 300k subs. Its your average themepark.

  • AmjocoAmjoco Layton, UTPosts: 4,779Member Uncommon

    Off topic: No culling stress test seems to be running great!

    Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.

  • Bad.dogBad.dog Belleville, ONPosts: 1,108Member
    Originally posted by Faelsun

    That is sort of exactly my point, GW2 is just like every other sub par not quite good as L1 or L2 or even Aion battling it out with the other backbencher mmorpgs fighting over 200 to 300k subs. Its your average themepark.

    Seems to me if you like GW2 you are happy playing the game and spend your time doing so ....if you dislike GW2 you spend your time playing the forums and worrying about the folks playing GW2. The fact you pulled a number like 200 to 300k subs doesn't seem to add to anything  in regards to GW2 ? I'm not even sure what you are trying to say but perhaps the fact that you nothing better to do then play the forums is more of a reflection on you than GW2

  • laokokolaokoko TaipeiPosts: 2,003Member

    ya well, keep complaining how every single mmorpg is bad.  You can try the mmorpg general forum.  Many people share your taste there.

    The point is GW2 is so bad, very few western published mmorpg is even better. 

    You keep comparing it to eastern published mmorpg.  But they have such an easier time because their market is so big.  And western publisher have a hard time getting in the east part of the globe.

     

  • VolkonVolkon Sterling, VAPosts: 3,788Member

    Typical Friday night in WvW. Yeah... they got me. Sigh...

     

     image

    Oderint, dum metuant.
    image

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