This thread title made me LoL, yes this is definitely the attitude of some "devs" in general, it's the gamers fault that our games suck! Ha!
We vote with our wallets, so essentially we are part of the reason that games suck !
So I guess you haven't bought any mmo in the last few years as an act of fight against that quality decrease? Or are you a part of the problem you are already aware of?
Correct: I do not buy games that implement features that I do not enjoy. To do otherwise would only be supporting features that I do not enjoy.
That is not to say that I enjoy 100% of every game I play, but the features I enjoy have to outweigh the features that I do not enjoy.
Little forum boys with their polished cyber toys: whine whine, boo-hoo, talk talk.
Now that may not be the fault of all of the game developers out there, but some of them have been spending the last several years spitting out the same games over and over again, and wondering why people are bored and/or angry about it.
You know,
I've been consuming single player games like crazy the past few weeks.
Most of it were horrible ports.
No custom key binds, often no options in the graphic settings department.
From what I gathered there were 3 decent pc only titles this year.
You bet I can understand where the anger is coming from.
To all *IDIOTS* blaming gamers for industry problems: There wouldn't be an industry without gamers. You can't blame your customers for the shortcomings of your products.
There has always been jerks out there, and if you take their negative comments to heart, you need to grow up.
Yes, but you can blame the customers for funding products that have shortcomings. I think that both parties are partly to blame. If you can not have an industry without gamers, then is it not logical to assume that the current state of the industry exists in part BECAUSE of the gamers?
No. I do not agree with this at all. From a business standpoint, it's a suicidal position to take as well. First off, there's a difference between a few vocal jerks out there spewing bile all over the internet, and customers who are not satisfied with boring/lackluster games. The jerks don't matter when the games are otherwise living up to others expectations. Selling your game isn't a problem if it's a game people enjoy playing.
The thing about morons throwing threats around, is that this has become the culture of the internet in general. You can go to any unmoderated or under-moderated site on the net and see the exact same behavior. This comes from perceived anonymity, where people feel free to act like internet bullies with no concern about recourse. Unfortunately, this is a dark aspect of human nature. I used to think that the only thing that could curb this would be making people use their real names, but over the last couple years on Facebook, I've seen people using their real names and saying the exact kind of crap I see where user names are used.
My take on what is wrong with the gaming industry is that games are not evolving at the pace they need to in order to keep up with the evolution of consumers. Now that may not be the fault of all of the game developers out there, but some of them have been spending the last several years spitting out the same games over and over again, and wondering why people are bored and/or angry about it.
The industry is ripe for some new excitement, and I believe devices like the Oculus Rift are exactly what it needs. This whining about consumer comments is an excuse, in my opinion. Anyone who has to interface with the public knows that jerks are always there, and they always will be. If you take their comments to heart, you are only empowering them.
Yet, they would not spit out the same games over and over again if there was no potential of profit. That is where I think the gamers are to blame. These gamers that you speak of are the ones continually buying the same thing over and over and then get mad about it? Maybe they should not be funding products that they do not like ...
Say that I only like chocolate ice cream and nothing else. If an ice cream company continues to produce vanilla ice cream, and I continue to buy the vanilla ice cream *wishing* that it was chocolate, whose fault is that? The producer or the consumer? To the ice cream company it looks as if I REALLY like to buy vanilla ice cream; so vanilla ice cream is what they will continue to make.
I will state again that I do not think all of the blame can be pinned on one or the other. I imagine there is a guy that works at that ice cream company that says:
"Hey! There is an untapped market in chocolate ice cream! Why do we not make some chocolate flavors?"
However, the numbers show that people are perfectly happy with buying vanilla ice cream (because you, as the consumer, still buy it even though you do not like it).
Yet, every once and awhile, a company will be smart enough or decide to take a risk and actually attempt to tap into the chocolate market. It is very hard to justify the potential money loss from this simply because the company is making enough profit by producing vanilla ice cream (again, because the consumers buy vanilla even though they do not like it).
Now, if the consumers who do not like vanilla ice cream were to stop buying the vanilla ice cream, the company would HAVE to start looking at other avenues of profit gain (if the sales of vanilla ice cream dropped enough).
Whether you want to believe it or not, I believe that we, the consumers, dictate the quality of products that are produced by companies.
Thus, we vote with our wallets.
Little forum boys with their polished cyber toys: whine whine, boo-hoo, talk talk.
Bad people exist. What else is new? I bet other industries get just as many threats, if not more. Don't use extreme cases to generalize. Most gamers are pretty decent people.
Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.
No, greed and profit is what is killing some parts of this industry.
As a game developer, I would like to see you in my place with that money, and see how good samaritan would you be.
Look random anonymous dude on the internet,
I'm a composer in real life, I know all about selling out and dancing with the devil.
If you can accept the cash be prepared to deal with the consequences.
I don't know how this has anything to do with what I wrote, but you must have really wanted to shine here, so I won't take that pleasure away from you.
I have no problem dealing with consequences. It doesn't even matter who I am if it bothers you so much. I can rephrase myself like this: Try to imagine yourself not in my shoes but in some real not annonymous game developer, and try to think how good samaritan would you be. I want to see you lowering your paycheck for some random people in any industry.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Now that may not be the fault of all of the game developers out there, but some of them have been spending the last several years spitting out the same games over and over again, and wondering why people are bored and/or angry about it.
You know,
I've been consuming single player games like crazy the past few weeks.
Most of it were horrible ports.
No custom key binds, often no options in the graphic settings department.
From what I gathered there were 3 decent pc only titles this year.
You bet I can understand where the anger is coming from.
Did you purchase these titles?
Little forum boys with their polished cyber toys: whine whine, boo-hoo, talk talk.
In the end, no matter who we are as individuals, we add up to statistical noise and every bell curve of reactions has a tail end. No matter what the industry you are in, the more people who are aware of you and your work, the larger and longer those tails are going to be. You need to be honest with yourself about the limits of what you can handle and ensure you keep the distance and filters to prevent that tail end of reactions from wrecking you.
I don't know how this has anything to do with what I wrote, but you must have really wanted to shine here, so I won't take that pleasure away from you.
Seriously?
I was only pointing out that with actions come consequences.
Since you mentioned your profession, I mentioned mine.
Both dealing with the same subject, trading art for money. I thought that was quite obvious.
In the end, no matter who we are as individuals, we add up to statistical noise and every bell curve of reactions has a tail end. No matter what the industry you are in, the more people who are aware of you and your work, the larger and longer those tails are going to be. You need to be honest with yourself about the limits of what you can handle and ensure you keep the distance and filters to prevent that tail end of reactions from wrecking you.
I think gamers take the nerd rage competition to other areas of life, this forum is often an example of it. Hell the knee jerk reaction in this single thread is probably an example of it.
The generally idea behind the article is you are not going to get people to interact with the customer, get into this area of business and attract future quality workers if they can expect Death threats, rape threats, threats against children on a regular basis for doing their job by a bunch of anonymous clowns with no sense of social norms.
One guy had 70 death threats, or so he says, on his xbox live account, it doesn't matter that 70 people is a small percentage of the player base it is still seventy death threats which is probably 69 1/2 more death threats than he should have gotten for doing his job.
The only reason someone would deal with that kind of stuff is money and then we get mad at games for following the money instead of some idealistic vision of where mmorpg's should be going.
People acting a certain way (death threats) is not what destroyed any industry... That is an entirely different problem and point blank comes down to society not holding people responsible for their actions and taking appropriate steps to make them take responsibility for what they have done.
A lot of what destroyed MMO's was people being hired that should have made a Mario Brothers sequel and never had the chance to ruin MMO's... because I know I find playing a platform jumper to be very entertaining when I wanted an RPG...
This showcases the same problem as those making death threats over games, an inability to reason past your own preference. "He made a feature I don't like, therefor he does not deserve to work in this industry". Hogwash...
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
People acting a certain way (death threats) is not what destroyed any industry... That is an entirely different problem and point blank comes down to society not holding people responsible for their actions and taking appropriate steps to make them take responsibility for what they have done.
A lot of what destroyed MMO's was people being hired that should have made a Mario Brothers sequel and never had the chance to ruin MMO's... because I know I find playing a platform jumper to be very entertaining when I wanted an RPG...
This showcases the same problem as those making death threats over games, an inability to reason past your own preference. "He made a feature I don't like, therefor he does not deserve to work in this industry". Hogwash...
And this site bears accountability for this as well allowing any one too post threads full of agendas with no moderation I'm getting sick of it
you can't hold us all accountable for what a dozen people do/did.
I didn't make any threats against any developer, am I also part of this ?
This.
These isolated incidents are more the expansion of a mass market now full of people who have internet courage because they are behind a keyboard and pounding out comments within a rage fueled mind state because they had an immature temper tantrum about small changes in a game they are too emotionally invested in obviously. If they would of just taken five to ten minutes to absorb it instead of hammering out the first comment that came to mind you could of had a more civil disagreement, or at least a lack of death threats, most of which I imagine are empty threats.
It's just a provocative title to get attention, obviously the majority of gamers aren't destroying the industry... THEY ARE THE INDUSTRY and to lump the whole industry in with a couple of raging nerds is pretty absurd.
Not surprised that some of these comments happened in the sesspool of the internet that is twitter. Forums in general will always have their trolls as well.
If your going to be a part of something big you have to learn to handle extreme criticism and/or harassment quite honestly. It "shouldn't happen" but we don't live in should land. Good for them for leaving, they took their stand and made the decision they felt was best for them.
People acting a certain way (death threats) is not what destroyed any industry... That is an entirely different problem and point blank comes down to society not holding people responsible for their actions and taking appropriate steps to make them take responsibility for what they have done.
A lot of what destroyed MMO's was people being hired that should have made a Mario Brothers sequel and never had the chance to ruin MMO's... because I know I find playing a platform jumper to be very entertaining when I wanted an RPG...
This showcases the same problem as those making death threats over games, an inability to reason past your own preference. "He made a feature I don't like, therefor he does not deserve to work in this industry". Hogwash...
And this site bears accountability for this as well allowing any one too post threads full of agendas with no moderation I'm getting sick of it
I don't really know about agenda's.. but.. for the hogwash poster... If you want to make console games then you should be working for a place that creates console games. RPG's which is the last half of MMORPG aka like this website are not Mario Brothers and they have never been platform games.
So no a person that wants (or only knows how) to create Game Type B.. should not be hired to create Game Type A unless they want to learn how to do it. Which oddly enough was supposedly the point of this thread "something ruining the gaming industry" and I agree with the last person... if there is not going to be any kind of logical response then the Hogwash should be moderated off the forum.
it's like saying grocery shoppers are destroying the food industry, or drivers are destroying the car industry. total BS.
the truth is the more and more developers are becoming increasingly greedy and want to make games only for profit. this means going for cheap garbage in volume instead of trying to produce quality with a high risk of missing the general's interest. the Wall mart approach is much more business savoy.
a perfect example is Minecraft. an incredible success for a game that is horrendously simple by today's standards, and yet truly inspired by a gamer mind, not a business mind thinking of costs vs market shares. the idea behind the game was to creat something completely new and exciting. not cashing in on the latest trend.
the so called "insatiable locusts" of today's gaming world have been carefully created on purpose by gaming executives just so there will always be a hungry horde waiting to consume whatever cheap re-cycled garbage they feel like dishing that particular week. if people were happy with their 1 game for years on end, who the hell would make money anymore?
I guess you didn't take time to actually read the article to know what's being discussed here?
Anyone who rationalizes personal threats made against a developer who strove to create a fun experience for players is a sick individual.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I think most of the problem is 2 fold.. You have companies that are trying to promote a Chevy Chevette as a Corvette for stiff profit, and you have players demanding a Corvette for the price of a Chevette.. Both sides are playing the tug of war for money.. Both sides are guilty in this.. Players should stop demanding everything, and companies should stop promising everything.. Normally your biggest issues in any customers service is expectations.. And in the gaming industry that bar is TOO DAMN HIGH in my opinion..
The user and all related content has been deleted.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
Originally posted by zymurgeist Apparently someone didn't get the memo. Gamers are the industry. You either make what a significant number of them want or you go find a new job.
You aren't going please everyone all of the time - every decision, every priority is a tradeoff. This isn't about simple balance of positive and negative feedback, this is about people pointlessly lashing out like spoiled children at anyone they disagree with. Once you have a few people on both sides of an issue trying to do this, it can very quickly suck the fun out of trying to please anyone anymore.
The user and all related content has been deleted.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
This can happen on every site where people can post, so I think the articles are an overreaction. As fans we are more likely to Flame On, but then I am sure the same can be said on forums that follow politics and religion.
Are people leaving politics or stepping down from a religious appointment because of a negative comment on a forum? Being on the internet involves being ready to put on an asbestos suit.
There are forum moderators who can crack down on those proposing violence on others, but that is only ever going to be partially successful. I think this is part of internet life, it connects you to the best and worse of us.
And have any children been attacked? Once again drama about children is being used to make a story more news worthy. Using what has happened to children is being used to try and get a change in how anonymous the internet is in the UK as we speak. Children and teenagers are also being used in the media here currently to try and get websites to be accountable for everything that is said on them. It is not of course the parents fault that children have unrestricted access to such sites!
As a developer you do not have to engage with the public that much. If you go to every convention, twitter on, use forums all the time then you will get negative comments. Make sure you have your suit of armour on and keep your tower shield ready to block at all times!
I guess you didn't take time to actually read the article to know what's being discussed here?
Anyone who rationalizes personal threats made against a developer who strove to create a fun experience for players is a sick individual.
Yet it's completely wrong for the customer to complain that the gaming industry is trying to milk every dollar out of the gamers with all of the downloadable content they're releasing for their games. Oh I hope you enjoy Day-One DLC it's not going away and it'll only get more expensive.
I guess you didn't take time to actually read my post to know what's being discussed here?
Anyone who rationalizes personal threats made against a developer is a sick individual.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
"Jennifer Hepler was a writer on the role-playing game Dragon Age II. The game's ravenous fan base got so upset that she found herself receiving not only death threats aimed at her, but also threats against her family and children."
Some gamers are filth. People occasionally over-step the mark on this forum, but behaviour like this takes a rocket jump over the mark and lands in a place so vile that no reasonable person would ever deign to set foot there. There is no justification for making threats of this nature.
Comments
Look random anonymous dude on the internet,
I'm a composer in real life, I know all about selling out and dancing with the devil.
If you can accept the cash be prepared to deal with the consequences.
Correct: I do not buy games that implement features that I do not enjoy. To do otherwise would only be supporting features that I do not enjoy.
That is not to say that I enjoy 100% of every game I play, but the features I enjoy have to outweigh the features that I do not enjoy.
Little forum boys with their polished cyber toys: whine whine, boo-hoo, talk talk.
You know,
I've been consuming single player games like crazy the past few weeks.
Most of it were horrible ports.
No custom key binds, often no options in the graphic settings department.
From what I gathered there were 3 decent pc only titles this year.
You bet I can understand where the anger is coming from.
Yet, they would not spit out the same games over and over again if there was no potential of profit. That is where I think the gamers are to blame. These gamers that you speak of are the ones continually buying the same thing over and over and then get mad about it? Maybe they should not be funding products that they do not like ...
Say that I only like chocolate ice cream and nothing else. If an ice cream company continues to produce vanilla ice cream, and I continue to buy the vanilla ice cream *wishing* that it was chocolate, whose fault is that? The producer or the consumer? To the ice cream company it looks as if I REALLY like to buy vanilla ice cream; so vanilla ice cream is what they will continue to make.
I will state again that I do not think all of the blame can be pinned on one or the other. I imagine there is a guy that works at that ice cream company that says:
"Hey! There is an untapped market in chocolate ice cream! Why do we not make some chocolate flavors?"
However, the numbers show that people are perfectly happy with buying vanilla ice cream (because you, as the consumer, still buy it even though you do not like it).
Yet, every once and awhile, a company will be smart enough or decide to take a risk and actually attempt to tap into the chocolate market. It is very hard to justify the potential money loss from this simply because the company is making enough profit by producing vanilla ice cream (again, because the consumers buy vanilla even though they do not like it).
Now, if the consumers who do not like vanilla ice cream were to stop buying the vanilla ice cream, the company would HAVE to start looking at other avenues of profit gain (if the sales of vanilla ice cream dropped enough).
Whether you want to believe it or not, I believe that we, the consumers, dictate the quality of products that are produced by companies.
Thus, we vote with our wallets.
Little forum boys with their polished cyber toys: whine whine, boo-hoo, talk talk.
Bad people exist. What else is new? I bet other industries get just as many threats, if not more. Don't use extreme cases to generalize. Most gamers are pretty decent people.
Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.
I don't know how this has anything to do with what I wrote, but you must have really wanted to shine here, so I won't take that pleasure away from you.
I have no problem dealing with consequences. It doesn't even matter who I am if it bothers you so much. I can rephrase myself like this: Try to imagine yourself not in my shoes but in some real not annonymous game developer, and try to think how good samaritan would you be. I want to see you lowering your paycheck for some random people in any industry.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Did you purchase these titles?
Little forum boys with their polished cyber toys: whine whine, boo-hoo, talk talk.
In the end, no matter who we are as individuals, we add up to statistical noise and every bell curve of reactions has a tail end. No matter what the industry you are in, the more people who are aware of you and your work, the larger and longer those tails are going to be. You need to be honest with yourself about the limits of what you can handle and ensure you keep the distance and filters to prevent that tail end of reactions from wrecking you.
Seriously?
I was only pointing out that with actions come consequences.
Since you mentioned your profession, I mentioned mine.
Both dealing with the same subject, trading art for money. I thought that was quite obvious.
I think gamers take the nerd rage competition to other areas of life, this forum is often an example of it. Hell the knee jerk reaction in this single thread is probably an example of it.
The generally idea behind the article is you are not going to get people to interact with the customer, get into this area of business and attract future quality workers if they can expect Death threats, rape threats, threats against children on a regular basis for doing their job by a bunch of anonymous clowns with no sense of social norms.
One guy had 70 death threats, or so he says, on his xbox live account, it doesn't matter that 70 people is a small percentage of the player base it is still seventy death threats which is probably 69 1/2 more death threats than he should have gotten for doing his job.
The only reason someone would deal with that kind of stuff is money and then we get mad at games for following the money instead of some idealistic vision of where mmorpg's should be going.
This showcases the same problem as those making death threats over games, an inability to reason past your own preference. "He made a feature I don't like, therefor he does not deserve to work in this industry". Hogwash...
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
And this site bears accountability for this as well allowing any one too post threads full of agendas with no moderation I'm getting sick of it
This.
These isolated incidents are more the expansion of a mass market now full of people who have internet courage because they are behind a keyboard and pounding out comments within a rage fueled mind state because they had an immature temper tantrum about small changes in a game they are too emotionally invested in obviously. If they would of just taken five to ten minutes to absorb it instead of hammering out the first comment that came to mind you could of had a more civil disagreement, or at least a lack of death threats, most of which I imagine are empty threats.
It's just a provocative title to get attention, obviously the majority of gamers aren't destroying the industry... THEY ARE THE INDUSTRY and to lump the whole industry in with a couple of raging nerds is pretty absurd.
Not surprised that some of these comments happened in the sesspool of the internet that is twitter. Forums in general will always have their trolls as well.
If your going to be a part of something big you have to learn to handle extreme criticism and/or harassment quite honestly. It "shouldn't happen" but we don't live in should land. Good for them for leaving, they took their stand and made the decision they felt was best for them.
I don't really know about agenda's.. but.. for the hogwash poster... If you want to make console games then you should be working for a place that creates console games. RPG's which is the last half of MMORPG aka like this website are not Mario Brothers and they have never been platform games.
So no a person that wants (or only knows how) to create Game Type B.. should not be hired to create Game Type A unless they want to learn how to do it. Which oddly enough was supposedly the point of this thread "something ruining the gaming industry" and I agree with the last person... if there is not going to be any kind of logical response then the Hogwash should be moderated off the forum.
You are welcome to leave.
The internet does not just cater to you.
I guess you didn't take time to actually read the article to know what's being discussed here?
Anyone who rationalizes personal threats made against a developer who strove to create a fun experience for players is a sick individual.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
You aren't going please everyone all of the time - every decision, every priority is a tradeoff. This isn't about simple balance of positive and negative feedback, this is about people pointlessly lashing out like spoiled children at anyone they disagree with. Once you have a few people on both sides of an issue trying to do this, it can very quickly suck the fun out of trying to please anyone anymore.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
This can happen on every site where people can post, so I think the articles are an overreaction. As fans we are more likely to Flame On, but then I am sure the same can be said on forums that follow politics and religion.
Are people leaving politics or stepping down from a religious appointment because of a negative comment on a forum? Being on the internet involves being ready to put on an asbestos suit.
There are forum moderators who can crack down on those proposing violence on others, but that is only ever going to be partially successful. I think this is part of internet life, it connects you to the best and worse of us.
And have any children been attacked? Once again drama about children is being used to make a story more news worthy. Using what has happened to children is being used to try and get a change in how anonymous the internet is in the UK as we speak. Children and teenagers are also being used in the media here currently to try and get websites to be accountable for everything that is said on them. It is not of course the parents fault that children have unrestricted access to such sites!
As a developer you do not have to engage with the public that much. If you go to every convention, twitter on, use forums all the time then you will get negative comments. Make sure you have your suit of armour on and keep your tower shield ready to block at all times!
Humanity is its own worst enemy, alas.
I guess you didn't take time to actually read my post to know what's being discussed here?
Anyone who rationalizes personal threats made against a developer is a sick individual.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
"Jennifer Hepler was a writer on the role-playing game Dragon Age II. The game's ravenous fan base got so upset that she found herself receiving not only death threats aimed at her, but also threats against her family and children."
Some gamers are filth. People occasionally over-step the mark on this forum, but behaviour like this takes a rocket jump over the mark and lands in a place so vile that no reasonable person would ever deign to set foot there. There is no justification for making threats of this nature.