The Secret World has 8 skills w/ 8 passives, I didn't hear anybody complaining how it was made for console. Can you drama queens pull your skirts down and stop this? Worst, worst WORST community ever. You people are fucking miserable, yet you refuse to go play whatever old game with 30 skills on the screen and macros that makes you happy.
I can't stand how TSW was made originally for consoles.
The Secret World has 8 skills w/ 8 passives, I didn't hear anybody complaining how it was made for console. Can you drama queens pull your skirts down and stop this? Worst, worst WORST community ever. You people are fucking miserable, yet you refuse to go play whatever old game with 30 skills on the screen and macros that makes you happy.
I can't stand how TSW was made originally for consoles.
Making it for consoles is still no excuse to blame it on since you can have way more skills than 8 even if you designed it based on gamepad. Final Fantasy XIV for example can have up to 32 active skills slotted on gamepad. The new Devil May Cry has 51 total active skills (actually way more if you count the none weapon skills) and no hotbar required to do any of them. http://www.videogamesblogger.com/2013/01/15/dmc-devil-may-cry-move-list.htm#rebellion
Are you gonna use the console excuse for GW2 and Neverwinter too?
The Secret World has 8 skills w/ 8 passives, I didn't hear anybody complaining how it was made for console. Can you drama queens pull your skirts down and stop this? Worst, worst WORST community ever. You people are fucking miserable, yet you refuse to go play whatever old game with 30 skills on the screen and macros that makes you happy.
I can't stand how TSW was made originally for consoles.
Making it for consoles is still no excuse to blame it on since you can have way more skills than 8 even if you designed it based on gamepad. Final Fantasy XIV for example can have up to 32 active skills slotted on gamepad. The new Devil May Cry has 51 total active skills (actually way more if you count the none weapon skills) and no hotbar required to do any of them. http://www.videogamesblogger.com/2013/01/15/dmc-devil-may-cry-move-list.htm#rebellion
Are you gonna use the console excuse for GW2 and Neverwinter too?
I really think you are responding to a sarcastic post...look at what he was responding to...
GW2 combat was too simplified for my liking. It seemed to copy from Moba games. Well fights in Moba games last a few seconds while many encounters in a MMO last minutes. This combat just didn't work for a lot of poeple. Fire off your skills then watch CD. It was boring. My class was very restrictive and often only had one way of dealing with the tougher mobs. My CD'were long and I was often just autoattacking.
I am hoping EQNext will be more like GW1 than GW2.
Even if it was going to be a lot like GW2 Adding both block and dodge skills could make it more complex Furthermore you could have non-hotbar buffs to tinker with.
They haven't really revealed much but I can see many ways for this to work better than GW2.
Originally posted by vorpal28 original EQ had limited slots to, it forced you to make choices and oh wow maybe have some skill at playing...
LAS has nothing to do with skill sir.
it has everything to do with skill... You're limited in your choice of skills thus you have less options to choose from when in combat so in order to get the most out of your skills you have to learn how to combine spells in different situations.
"Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life." -------------------------------
Skyrim which has one of the most enjoyable combat, doesnt have skill bars at all just some power attacks when u hold down left mouse button,but every simple swing has a meaning depending on timing, positioning,reaction on enemy movement etc. Yes skyrim is action combat style ofc while the casual mmo's out there use auto attacks and player use some skills to break the routine ,allright.
Even so though if devs decide to make the combat look like lets say a nice horography of attacks parries,blocks,special animations that occur on hit,even auto-attacks could have a whole differrent meaning as u watch the combat goes on and with addition of just a few skills (an 8 skill bar) it could work even more better. Allthough i dont know if that be the case with EQ Next ,dont know what they did so far with combat and how they plan to have it on launch day.
Skyrim which has one of the most enjoyable combat, doesnt have skill bars at all just some power attacks when u hold down left mouse button,but every simple swing has a meaning depending on timing, positioning,reaction on enemy movement etc. Yes skyrim is action combat style ofc while the casual mmo's out there use auto attacks and player use some skills to break the routine ,allright.
Even so though if devs decide to make the combat look like lets say a nice horography of attacks parries,blocks,special animations that occur on hit,even auto-attacks could have a whole differrent meaning as u watch the combat goes on and with addition of just a few skills (an 8 skill bar) it could work even more better. Allthough i dont know if that be the case with EQ Next ,dont know what they did so far with combat and how they plan to have it on launch day.
Combat is the worst part of skyrim.
I could find u couple of million ppl that disagree with you but thats not the point. Specifically in skyrim few players use the vanilla skyrim combat system since the majority either use Tendo's Skyrim redone (Skyre) which takes the combat system into a whole new diverse level, or arso ,pise etc etc. If u dont like in general manual combat systems thats ok every player has his own unique taste of what is ideal for him anwy.
Here is the thing about games that offer a bunch of bindable abilities.. macros. The best rotations will be min/max into a 2 or 3 button macro. Now my math isn't great but that is less than 8. See Rift after release. Combat devolved into macro chains. Now you have a choice of offering Macro customizing into the UI which will inevitably simplify combat or not add it and give those with the know-how a decisive advantage when they use third-party programs to macro chains.
Limited skills sets seem to be the wave of the future.
I don't mind either way as most games with an abundance of skills I don't even use half of em or if I do the UI is so cluttered that it gets hard to do anything but constantly watch your hotbars.........
This is still going? Amount of buttons has nothing to do with the gameplay, or fun - factor of a game. Specially since we have not seen the system in play! Mario bros. started with 2 buttons, and it was revolutionary. Modern Console games have very few buttons, and yet they are still very enjoyable. Even tons of the current MMOs out there have a small subset of their buttons that are used, while the rest of them are buffs and very situational.
If you believe that amount of buttons is a direct correlation to the amount of fun a game has, you are sadly mistaken.
Now, if you try to make the argument, that it is SKILLS that you are looking into, then I don't see the problem either: 40 Classes each with 5 tiers and at least one skill per tier = 200+ possible skills per character... that is more than most games out there. So your point is void.
I could easily present the counterargument that those approaching this system positively are making an erroneously optimistic judgment about the system before they, too, have ever played it. We only have what information they have given us and a humble request not to compare it to Guild Wars 2 (acknowledgement of informational similarity). I place a lot of hope in this new system, but there are logistical concerns based on Guild Wars 2's new system, which closely resembles all of the information SOE has released thus far. Voicing them are not a sin, nor is pretending that they do not exist, but pretending things are grand lacks the potential to be beneficial. I would strongly prefer that SOE come out and acknowledge the concerns, rather than go "well, we can do whatever we want everyone clearly loves whatever ideas we shit out." After all, I am the consumer. You may be, too.
But since you asked why I, personally, think it would be better to have more skills - even though I offer an example of this in my original post, which I request kindly that you read - I will gladly try to give you an additional reason. The original post is quoted just above, feel free to tinker with it at your leisure. I have a history of prowess within MMORPGs, notably in regards PvP. This changed for the first time when I played Guild Wars 2 and realized that I was just as effective not bothering to watch my opponent's attacks and focus on my own cooldowns and movements. Frankly, I was still grand, probably due to years of quick reacting - I topped the charts in every BG that I entered and was more than apt to handle 1v3s (I played an Engineer). When I handled a 1v3 on WoW, DAoC, or Tera, I always felt rather accomplished and proud of myself. In GW2 I did not, I felt like I mashed buttons better than they did and got lucky with motion. I fear that will spill over in EQN, and leave me unhappy - "selfish," I'm sure. But if I did not want something I enjoyed, I would not have looked so forward to EQN for the past four years, I would have sat on GW2 and said "it'll never be as good as this." I never had any clever tricks to pull, no brilliant spell reflections, no trinkets or gadgets that lined up perfectly. Frankly, I gave not a single fuck what skills my enemy was using because they largely all looked the same and did not really matter - my face-roll and move effectively strategy reigned supreme. I dueled, I battlegrounded, I even did ranked things from time to time. It was not slow paced and thought provoking or strategic, it was a rush of quick shooting and rolling around. May the best button masher and running win. I disliked that, a lot.
If you think that is great gameplay, I wholly support your right to an opinion. However, I respectfully disagree and think a small skill-set is overly limiting by comparison. I linked a favorite old video from earlier WoW, which demonstrates the power in having a large arsenal with which to handle everything uniquely at your fingertips (though, I feel the need to put forth the argument that as WoW progressed and more buttons were added, they reduced it to many fewer in an actual rotation, resulting in the skill-less button mashing seen today). With eight buttons, that video would not have been nearly as amusing and he would have more than likely perished numerous times, as would I were I in his shoes. Ultimately it boils down to having fewer ways to be good and fewer ways to make mistakes, placing great players and horrendous players on a relatively small disparity of skill. That, specifically, is what bothers me.
This is not about the ability to strike the one key when "1" pops up on screen. I have trained cats to do that. This is about hitting the "1" button when it would be intelligent to in the fight. Giving idiot Joe a multiple choice test where he has 8 choices versus giving him one with 20 enables him a significantly higher chance of hitting the right button because his finger is too fat for his keyboard than because he is intelligent and chose it because the guy in front was casting Ice Blast and he wanted to Spell Reflect it.
Onwards. Players will always min/max, I am not presenting an argument that that is a bad thing. After all, I certainly do it, but within the confines and restrictions that I am given. The problem that I have with it is more related to multi-classing than it is to the skill-set, hence why I drop off my argument there and use it primarily as an example. Naturally, if everyone can switch to the skillset that is optimal at the time, people will. EQN allows that, and it makes me not look forward to the 80,000 teleporting Ranger war that is to come. The reason I use this example is to relate to my above paragraph, in which more skills allow discrepancy between the better teleporting Ranger due to a higher level of being error-prone and a higher level of reactionary eloquence.
I disagree with your opinion that having the ability to counter everything is skillful. I think it is more skillful to be limited and still have the ability to counter everything.
To me, having more buttons is like having all the answers to a test. That's not a challenge, I already know what to use, I have all the tools at my disposal and there's nothing you can do that I don't have a counter for. The only problem now is, how fast can i press the button?
In games with limited skill-bars, the selection of skills is a meta-game unto itself. Because you don't have all the answers (or you can't actually fit all the answers into one bar) you have to actively try to create something that has most or one of the answers.
Yes, the learning curve for the average individual is definitely steeper with a 20-slot skill bar and therefore the gap between an experienced player and the average joe is a lot larger. But the only difference between a 20-slot skill bar and an 8 slot is how fast the average joe can learn what to use and when to use it and I'm guessing you want that gap to remain lengthy so that you can keep seeing yourself as better than others. And to be frank, I can't really argue against that. We all want to see ourselves as above other people in some shape or form.
I don't mind the 20 slot skill bar. I just don't think that your points towards their inclusion versus the 8 slot skill bar are anything but personal preference.
Motion joy allows me to map any key I want to anywhere I want within the limits of a ps3 controller, from keyboard emulation, mouse emulation, and 1st-3rd generation Playstation/Xbox controllers.
Tera allowed for the flexibility of 32 different abilities to be used in combat with game pad support, FF 14 allows for 16 buttons per hot bar up to 8 different hot bars, and for game that don't have support I can do up to 8 hot bars with 8 abilities per as long as the key binds don't require something like shift +1 to activate a hot bar. Even if the game did I could be down to 7 hot bars with 8 per and still be very comfortable with my key placement.
So what do we have here 17 regular keys available standard, 32 keys on a supported cross key set up, 128 keys in a FF 14 button setup, 64 keys in a standard hotbar keybind setup, and 56 keys in a restricted hotbar setup. And that's with basic knowledge of the system if you were to delve deeper you could split keys that aren't even support by the game I just never bothered to learn because I always have an excess or keys or a set up that works in my custom formats.
It's not a game pad problem and it's not a console problem and how dare people claim console players are simple minded and not ready for challenge. I swear some people have their head shoved so far up their *** they can't even hear themselves talk.
8 keys makes you make choices about your build and what type of combat you want to bring. if it bothers you so much you can swap out the next 156 skills and if your swapping that much maybe your build is just terrible or you hate your class. Some of it may seem limiting but this seems to be the easiest to balance approach for the devs at the moment. Maybe we let the game get out of alpha and wait till testing to start our finger pointing. maybe beta shows that balance fears are easy to address and it would be ok for a class to socket 4 dps without blowing up the world(doubt it).
I am a console play and a PC player and I have been playing single player, online, Fps, Mobas and mmos for years now with and without motion joy. I have seen no drop in performance nor have I tried blaming other games and consoles for button layouts. The only thing thing that would mess up a game pad experience is a bad carmera (sticky/rubber like funcom uses for all their games only one I've had problems with), and poor mouse sensitivity tuning in game settings.
"Do not speak to me of fate!" ~ A fairy tale for the Demon Lord
Originally posted by drakaena Here is the thing about games that offer a bunch of bindable abilities.. macros. The best rotations will be min/max into a 2 or 3 button macro. Now my math isn't great but that is less than 8. See Rift after release. Combat devolved into macro chains. Now you have a choice of offering Macro customizing into the UI which will inevitably simplify combat or not add it and give those with the know-how a decisive advantage when they use third-party programs to macro chains.
I know that homogenized classes are good for one playstyle but for me they are horrible. Raiders who wanted to play catch up or do more low end content to advance their small raiding guilds loved the skill changes in MOP and yes most raid builds are pretty close, but the old pvp builds for Death Knights alone would have many pages of builds because its more situational by its nature. There were all kinds of highly effective and highly ranked pvp builds that were only used by a fraction of the player base so But GW2 did not live up the expectations to say the least and MOP did the opposite of gaining new subs it ran people away by last check. I mean look there is nothing new about EZ mode skillbars all they are doing is making 3D Mu online, weapon skills and power sets been there done that welcome to 2001, then all you end up doing is gear tweaking the rest of the game, no thanks.
I voted WTF difference does it make? Are you having fun? Then that's the point.
Friggin buttons...friggin sheep
It's not the buttons. It's the options and choices.
Lots of options means strategy, variety, and much more fun.
Thanks Mr Salesman...but still leads to my response.....
Which doesn't make any sense. You want less options and to be guided by the hand with 8 skill presets and call other people sheep who have the audacity to want options. Sure some people have fun playing moronic games that require no ability to think or have to actually spec their class, many people also enjoyed Super Mario RPG it didnt have many options either, you got to fight a big boss in the end and jump a lot, it was also for kids.
I voted WTF difference does it make? Are you having fun? Then that's the point.
Friggin buttons...friggin sheep
It's not the buttons. It's the options and choices.
Lots of options means strategy, variety, and much more fun.
I don't think the word strategy means what you think it means.
Then I have to say that you don't know strategy. Whenever you have options, you can use those options in strategic ways. The problem with MMOs over the last years has been restrictions and controls have robbed players of those strategic maneuvers. I hope this game can come up with a way to get past that, and the AI that will make NPCs react differently is a big start. But we need options on the other end, as well as NPCs using a plethora of choices too.
I could easily present the counterargument that those approaching this system positively are making an erroneously optimistic judgment about the system before they, too, have ever played it. We only have what information they have given us and a humble request not to compare it to Guild Wars 2 (acknowledgement of informational similarity). I place a lot of hope in this new system, but there are logistical concerns based on Guild Wars 2's new system, which closely resembles all of the information SOE has released thus far. Voicing them are not a sin, nor is pretending that they do not exist, but pretending things are grand lacks the potential to be beneficial. I would strongly prefer that SOE come out and acknowledge the concerns, rather than go "well, we can do whatever we want everyone clearly loves whatever ideas we shit out." After all, I am the consumer. You may be, too.
But since you asked why I, personally, think it would be better to have more skills - even though I offer an example of this in my original post, which I request kindly that you read - I will gladly try to give you an additional reason. The original post is quoted just above, feel free to tinker with it at your leisure. I have a history of prowess within MMORPGs, notably in regards PvP. This changed for the first time when I played Guild Wars 2 and realized that I was just as effective not bothering to watch my opponent's attacks and focus on my own cooldowns and movements. Frankly, I was still grand, probably due to years of quick reacting - I topped the charts in every BG that I entered and was more than apt to handle 1v3s (I played an Engineer). When I handled a 1v3 on WoW, DAoC, or Tera, I always felt rather accomplished and proud of myself. In GW2 I did not, I felt like I mashed buttons better than they did and got lucky with motion. I fear that will spill over in EQN, and leave me unhappy - "selfish," I'm sure. But if I did not want something I enjoyed, I would not have looked so forward to EQN for the past four years, I would have sat on GW2 and said "it'll never be as good as this." I never had any clever tricks to pull, no brilliant spell reflections, no trinkets or gadgets that lined up perfectly. Frankly, I gave not a single fuck what skills my enemy was using because they largely all looked the same and did not really matter - my face-roll and move effectively strategy reigned supreme. I dueled, I battlegrounded, I even did ranked things from time to time. It was not slow paced and thought provoking or strategic, it was a rush of quick shooting and rolling around. May the best button masher and running win. I disliked that, a lot.
If you think that is great gameplay, I wholly support your right to an opinion. However, I respectfully disagree and think a small skill-set is overly limiting by comparison. I linked a favorite old video from earlier WoW, which demonstrates the power in having a large arsenal with which to handle everything uniquely at your fingertips (though, I feel the need to put forth the argument that as WoW progressed and more buttons were added, they reduced it to many fewer in an actual rotation, resulting in the skill-less button mashing seen today). With eight buttons, that video would not have been nearly as amusing and he would have more than likely perished numerous times, as would I were I in his shoes. Ultimately it boils down to having fewer ways to be good and fewer ways to make mistakes, placing great players and horrendous players on a relatively small disparity of skill. That, specifically, is what bothers me.
This is not about the ability to strike the one key when "1" pops up on screen. I have trained cats to do that. This is about hitting the "1" button when it would be intelligent to in the fight. Giving idiot Joe a multiple choice test where he has 8 choices versus giving him one with 20 enables him a significantly higher chance of hitting the right button because his finger is too fat for his keyboard than because he is intelligent and chose it because the guy in front was casting Ice Blast and he wanted to Spell Reflect it.
Onwards. Players will always min/max, I am not presenting an argument that that is a bad thing. After all, I certainly do it, but within the confines and restrictions that I am given. The problem that I have with it is more related to multi-classing than it is to the skill-set, hence why I drop off my argument there and use it primarily as an example. Naturally, if everyone can switch to the skillset that is optimal at the time, people will. EQN allows that, and it makes me not look forward to the 80,000 teleporting Ranger war that is to come. The reason I use this example is to relate to my above paragraph, in which more skills allow discrepancy between the better teleporting Ranger due to a higher level of being error-prone and a higher level of reactionary eloquence.
I disagree with your opinion that having the ability to counter everything is skillful. I think it is more skillful to be limited and still have the ability to counter everything.
1. To me, having more buttons is like having all the answers to a test. That's not a challenge, I already know what to use, I have all the tools at my disposal and there's nothing you can do that I don't have a counter for. The only problem now is, how fast can i press the button?
2. In games with limited skill-bars, the selection of skills is a meta-game unto itself. Because you don't have all the answers (or you can't actually fit all the answers into one bar) you have to actively try to create something that has most or one of the answers.
3. Yes, the learning curve for the average individual is definitely steeper with a 20-slot skill bar and therefore the gap between an experienced player and the average joe is a lot larger. But the only difference between a 20-slot skill bar and an 8 slot is how fast the average joe can learn what to use and when to use it and I'm guessing you want that gap to remain lengthy so that you can keep seeing yourself as better than others. And to be frank, I can't really argue against that. We all want to see ourselves as above other people in some shape or form.
4. I don't mind the 20 slot skill bar. I just don't think that your points towards their inclusion versus the 8 slot skill bar are anything but personal preference.
4. First and foremost, I appreciate the fact that you took the time to read my post. Thank you kindly. Not only that, but you are correct - I even state that it is personal preference and the preference of many, if not most, higher tier competitive players. Now if I may be as so bold to comment on each other paragraphs:
1. I appreciate the simile, but fail to see how it relates to button quantity. It is no different than having answers A-D vs having answers A-Q to choose from. There is a higher amount of error in guess-work than knowing what is best. The rapidity with which to press the correct button does not change with the amount of buttons - this would be more prevalent if the optimal button choice flashed for you on screen. (ex. "Press 7!" quickly pops up on screen, as opposed to reading an enemy player's incoming attack and having to know "He's about to throw a magic spell at me, therefore I should press 7."). Though I am glad you, specifically, already know what to use, for many others it is a mystery and that error prone nature enables the veteran to shine. This makes you a talented veteran over them. Knowing the right answer makes the extra buttons irrelevant, you are correct. But not knowing the right answer, which is what distinguishes a newcomer, or the answer being ambiguous and situational, is what enables one to fail or succeed.
If I may offer an example: it is like having one button that makes you immune to spells for a few seconds, and one that makes you immune to physical damage for a few seconds. Practicality dictates that one button will suffice by activating both (completely true, that is human efficiency) simultaneously. I would rather have my two options so that if fighting a hybrid or multiple people I can utilize more time immune with intelligent choice - or if they mirror me, they are more prone to error on blocking my outgoing damage.
There is nothing wrong with efficiency or personal choice, some people would prefer if they only had one button - auto-attack, registered on their left mouse button. They would be perfectly content and happy, it could be used to dig into the earth, kill low flying birds, hit players while running around, maybe it could trigger a short block effect so that people could skillfully use it to balance damage intake outtake. To some, having such limitation means that any victory is a remarkable display of skill. Me? I snicker.
2. I respectfully disagree. Because characters cannot change out their abilities during combat, this argument is largely in support of what one might call "foreknowledge" or "rock/paper/scissors style game-play." You can, at the very best, create a skill-set which answers only a small portion of a massive test. That will net you a high score on the Biology portion of the exam but get you eaten by Chemistry and Physics. Trying to have a skill dedicated to handling both enables you to choose a single button with which to flourish in combat based on the situation, which weakens rather than enhances. This is not combat as heavily based on skillful movement or intelligent reaction (Cleric > Rogue, Cleric < Rogue), but a combat based upon regard to foreknowledge of that with which you will be contending, since your chosen abilities will either do well or horrible against a specific enemy (Rogue > Cleric, Rogue > Cleric). Balance and victory via skill will be sparse.
3. I appreciate that you acknowledge the fault in arguing a personal opinion wrong - after all, I do not condemn those who wish combat was merely a left and right mouse-button click-fest. I simply prefer that it be different, just like I prefer more than eight skills - at one point I even reference myself "selfish." Part of what bothers me is how you word it. See, it is not about me seeing myself as better than others (as you seemingly received it), because every egocentric fool has a belief that they are a special snowflake. I am not so arrogant to think myself a king, but I want others to be able to acknowledge other individuals as a threat in battlegrounds and either focus fire or flee from them simply based on their name. I want to be able to distinguish great players and ask them for advice, ("Wow, how did you beat those three by yourself?! Teach me!") Reducing the ability to stand out easily reduces the ability to make a name. It is about creating a disparity so that there is means of personal progression toward excellence outside of gear. I know everyone being on the same foot is fun for casuals, but gives you nowhere to go if you have that competitive spirit. *frowns*
Naturally, I hope and pray that SOE has found some brilliant means of making the eight button thing work differently from Guild Wars 2. I really do. If they haven't, it will be the same zerg-fest skill-less pile of crap that adamant GW2 fans call "immensely skill based!" likely due to the inability to flourish in more challenging games beforehand. The reality is, no one knows anyone else's name in GW2 because it is impossible to distinguish yourself. There are no heroes and that notion of skillful elegance is dead. Most of that has to do with the lack of skill-based combat, the rest has to do with a bunch of various factors that are off-topic in this thread to which I shall not digress. For those two-button lovers, this game is probably not for them. For those twenty button lovers, this game is probably not for us either. But I really hope that they find a way to make it for us either with those eight buttons, or with revision of the concept. I spent five years hyping EverQuest Next to friends as the savior of old EverQuest, but that is not in the general state area of what I got. I just really hope that in some form or fashion, it appeals to me. Selfish, as that may be.
I find it hilarious that people thought that this was going to be anything other then a console baby. Sony has done nothing but launch games that fit the Playstation better then PC for the last 5 years. People are surprised and upset about this ? Look at that abortion they call Planetside 2, that should've been your first clue of where this games headed.
Originally posted by vorpal28 original EQ had limited slots to, it forced you to make choices and oh wow maybe have some skill at playing...
LAS has nothing to do with skill sir.
it has everything to do with skill... You're limited in your choice of skills thus you have less options to choose from when in combat so in order to get the most out of your skills you have to learn how to combine spells in different situations.
Moba's have far less skills, and there is still a good deal of skill involved in that genre. You don't even get to choose your abilities! This is obviously far more complex, and more skill will be required.
Originally posted by vorpal28 original EQ had limited slots to, it forced you to make choices and oh wow maybe have some skill at playing...
LAS has nothing to do with skill sir.
it has everything to do with skill... You're limited in your choice of skills thus you have less options to choose from when in combat so in order to get the most out of your skills you have to learn how to combine spells in different situations.
Moba's have far less skills, and there is still a good deal of skill involved in that genre. You don't even get to choose your abilities! This is obviously far more complex, and more skill will be required.
Yes but this is not a MOBA, lots of skill is involved in table tennis as well but that does not mean everyone playing an mmo will be content to have characters only armed with paddles and balls. If mere functionality were the only argument we wouldnt be playing an mmo in the first place we would all just play shooters all the time. It is not just about functionality its about choices and matchups and expectations. An mmo is not a game people play to be just like everyone else. You cant just decide to change it to something that its not for the sake of easy coding, that would be like taking magic the gathering and deciding everyone only gets 30 total cards to choose from, if they wanted easy guesswork they would play 21.
there is a simple term for this "gamesytle", arcade gaming.
back in the 90s that setting was used for formula 1 racing games, so you didnt have to bother with all the complicated stuff (traction and whatnot).
for mmos... exactly the same. they try to sell their mmos to consoles now too.. unused marked and stuff, obviously for a reason - but when you think about money reasons are relative.
they simplify mmos, so they can get more users.
prob is, they forget we dont want it simple, or we would play simple games.
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
Comments
I can't stand how TSW was made originally for consoles.
Making it for consoles is still no excuse to blame it on since you can have way more skills than 8 even if you designed it based on gamepad. Final Fantasy XIV for example can have up to 32 active skills slotted on gamepad. The new Devil May Cry has 51 total active skills (actually way more if you count the none weapon skills) and no hotbar required to do any of them. http://www.videogamesblogger.com/2013/01/15/dmc-devil-may-cry-move-list.htm#rebellion
Are you gonna use the console excuse for GW2 and Neverwinter too?
I really think you are responding to a sarcastic post...look at what he was responding to...
I am hoping EQNext will be more like GW1 than GW2.
Even if it was going to be a lot like GW2
Adding both block and dodge skills could make it more complex
Furthermore you could have non-hotbar buffs to tinker with.
They haven't really revealed much but I can see many ways for this to work better than GW2.
it has everything to do with skill... You're limited in your choice of skills thus you have less options to choose from when in combat so in order to get the most out of your skills you have to learn how to combine spells in different situations.
"Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life."
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Skyrim which has one of the most enjoyable combat, doesnt have skill bars at all just some power attacks when u hold down left mouse button,but every simple swing has a meaning depending on timing, positioning,reaction on enemy movement etc. Yes skyrim is action combat style ofc while the casual mmo's out there use auto attacks and player use some skills to break the routine ,allright.
Even so though if devs decide to make the combat look like lets say a nice horography of attacks parries,blocks,special animations that occur on hit,even auto-attacks could have a whole differrent meaning as u watch the combat goes on and with addition of just a few skills (an 8 skill bar) it could work even more better. Allthough i dont know if that be the case with EQ Next ,dont know what they did so far with combat and how they plan to have it on launch day.
I could find u couple of million ppl that disagree with you but thats not the point. Specifically in skyrim few players use the vanilla skyrim combat system since the majority either use Tendo's Skyrim redone (Skyre) which takes the combat system into a whole new diverse level, or arso ,pise etc etc. If u dont like in general manual combat systems thats ok every player has his own unique taste of what is ideal for him anwy.
Limited skills sets seem to be the wave of the future.
I don't mind either way as most games with an abundance of skills I don't even use half of em or if I do the UI is so cluttered that it gets hard to do anything but constantly watch your hotbars.........
This is still going? Amount of buttons has nothing to do with the gameplay, or fun - factor of a game. Specially since we have not seen the system in play! Mario bros. started with 2 buttons, and it was revolutionary. Modern Console games have very few buttons, and yet they are still very enjoyable. Even tons of the current MMOs out there have a small subset of their buttons that are used, while the rest of them are buffs and very situational.
If you believe that amount of buttons is a direct correlation to the amount of fun a game has, you are sadly mistaken.
Now, if you try to make the argument, that it is SKILLS that you are looking into, then I don't see the problem either: 40 Classes each with 5 tiers and at least one skill per tier = 200+ possible skills per character... that is more than most games out there. So your point is void.
I disagree with your opinion that having the ability to counter everything is skillful. I think it is more skillful to be limited and still have the ability to counter everything.
To me, having more buttons is like having all the answers to a test. That's not a challenge, I already know what to use, I have all the tools at my disposal and there's nothing you can do that I don't have a counter for. The only problem now is, how fast can i press the button?
In games with limited skill-bars, the selection of skills is a meta-game unto itself. Because you don't have all the answers (or you can't actually fit all the answers into one bar) you have to actively try to create something that has most or one of the answers.
Yes, the learning curve for the average individual is definitely steeper with a 20-slot skill bar and therefore the gap between an experienced player and the average joe is a lot larger. But the only difference between a 20-slot skill bar and an 8 slot is how fast the average joe can learn what to use and when to use it and I'm guessing you want that gap to remain lengthy so that you can keep seeing yourself as better than others. And to be frank, I can't really argue against that. We all want to see ourselves as above other people in some shape or form.
I don't mind the 20 slot skill bar. I just don't think that your points towards their inclusion versus the 8 slot skill bar are anything but personal preference.
This is not a game.
Let's just dispell this game pad crap right here.
this is a free program called motion joy : http://www.motioninjoy.com/
Motion joy allows me to map any key I want to anywhere I want within the limits of a ps3 controller, from keyboard emulation, mouse emulation, and 1st-3rd generation Playstation/Xbox controllers.
Tera allowed for the flexibility of 32 different abilities to be used in combat with game pad support, FF 14 allows for 16 buttons per hot bar up to 8 different hot bars, and for game that don't have support I can do up to 8 hot bars with 8 abilities per as long as the key binds don't require something like shift +1 to activate a hot bar. Even if the game did I could be down to 7 hot bars with 8 per and still be very comfortable with my key placement.
So what do we have here 17 regular keys available standard, 32 keys on a supported cross key set up, 128 keys in a FF 14 button setup, 64 keys in a standard hotbar keybind setup, and 56 keys in a restricted hotbar setup. And that's with basic knowledge of the system if you were to delve deeper you could split keys that aren't even support by the game I just never bothered to learn because I always have an excess or keys or a set up that works in my custom formats.
It's not a game pad problem and it's not a console problem and how dare people claim console players are simple minded and not ready for challenge. I swear some people have their head shoved so far up their *** they can't even hear themselves talk.
8 keys makes you make choices about your build and what type of combat you want to bring. if it bothers you so much you can swap out the next 156 skills and if your swapping that much maybe your build is just terrible or you hate your class. Some of it may seem limiting but this seems to be the easiest to balance approach for the devs at the moment. Maybe we let the game get out of alpha and wait till testing to start our finger pointing. maybe beta shows that balance fears are easy to address and it would be ok for a class to socket 4 dps without blowing up the world(doubt it).
I am a console play and a PC player and I have been playing single player, online, Fps, Mobas and mmos for years now with and without motion joy. I have seen no drop in performance nor have I tried blaming other games and consoles for button layouts. The only thing thing that would mess up a game pad experience is a bad carmera (sticky/rubber like funcom uses for all their games only one I've had problems with), and poor mouse sensitivity tuning in game settings.
"Do not speak to me of fate!" ~ A fairy tale for the Demon Lord
I know that homogenized classes are good for one playstyle but for me they are horrible. Raiders who wanted to play catch up or do more low end content to advance their small raiding guilds loved the skill changes in MOP and yes most raid builds are pretty close, but the old pvp builds for Death Knights alone would have many pages of builds because its more situational by its nature. There were all kinds of highly effective and highly ranked pvp builds that were only used by a fraction of the player base so But GW2 did not live up the expectations to say the least and MOP did the opposite of gaining new subs it ran people away by last check. I mean look there is nothing new about EZ mode skillbars all they are doing is making 3D Mu online, weapon skills and power sets been there done that welcome to 2001, then all you end up doing is gear tweaking the rest of the game, no thanks.
I voted WTF difference does it make? Are you having fun? Then that's the point.
Friggin buttons...friggin sheep
It's not the buttons. It's the options and choices.
Lots of options means strategy, variety, and much more fun.
Once upon a time....
Thanks Mr Salesman...but still leads to my response.....
Which doesn't make any sense. You want less options and to be guided by the hand with 8 skill presets and call other people sheep who have the audacity to want options. Sure some people have fun playing moronic games that require no ability to think or have to actually spec their class, many people also enjoyed Super Mario RPG it didnt have many options either, you got to fight a big boss in the end and jump a lot, it was also for kids.
I don't think the word strategy means what you think it means.
Then I have to say that you don't know strategy. Whenever you have options, you can use those options in strategic ways. The problem with MMOs over the last years has been restrictions and controls have robbed players of those strategic maneuvers. I hope this game can come up with a way to get past that, and the AI that will make NPCs react differently is a big start. But we need options on the other end, as well as NPCs using a plethora of choices too.
Once upon a time....
4. First and foremost, I appreciate the fact that you took the time to read my post. Thank you kindly. Not only that, but you are correct - I even state that it is personal preference and the preference of many, if not most, higher tier competitive players. Now if I may be as so bold to comment on each other paragraphs:
1. I appreciate the simile, but fail to see how it relates to button quantity. It is no different than having answers A-D vs having answers A-Q to choose from. There is a higher amount of error in guess-work than knowing what is best. The rapidity with which to press the correct button does not change with the amount of buttons - this would be more prevalent if the optimal button choice flashed for you on screen. (ex. "Press 7!" quickly pops up on screen, as opposed to reading an enemy player's incoming attack and having to know "He's about to throw a magic spell at me, therefore I should press 7."). Though I am glad you, specifically, already know what to use, for many others it is a mystery and that error prone nature enables the veteran to shine. This makes you a talented veteran over them. Knowing the right answer makes the extra buttons irrelevant, you are correct. But not knowing the right answer, which is what distinguishes a newcomer, or the answer being ambiguous and situational, is what enables one to fail or succeed.
If I may offer an example: it is like having one button that makes you immune to spells for a few seconds, and one that makes you immune to physical damage for a few seconds. Practicality dictates that one button will suffice by activating both (completely true, that is human efficiency) simultaneously. I would rather have my two options so that if fighting a hybrid or multiple people I can utilize more time immune with intelligent choice - or if they mirror me, they are more prone to error on blocking my outgoing damage.
There is nothing wrong with efficiency or personal choice, some people would prefer if they only had one button - auto-attack, registered on their left mouse button. They would be perfectly content and happy, it could be used to dig into the earth, kill low flying birds, hit players while running around, maybe it could trigger a short block effect so that people could skillfully use it to balance damage intake outtake. To some, having such limitation means that any victory is a remarkable display of skill. Me? I snicker.
2. I respectfully disagree. Because characters cannot change out their abilities during combat, this argument is largely in support of what one might call "foreknowledge" or "rock/paper/scissors style game-play." You can, at the very best, create a skill-set which answers only a small portion of a massive test. That will net you a high score on the Biology portion of the exam but get you eaten by Chemistry and Physics. Trying to have a skill dedicated to handling both enables you to choose a single button with which to flourish in combat based on the situation, which weakens rather than enhances. This is not combat as heavily based on skillful movement or intelligent reaction (Cleric > Rogue, Cleric < Rogue), but a combat based upon regard to foreknowledge of that with which you will be contending, since your chosen abilities will either do well or horrible against a specific enemy (Rogue > Cleric, Rogue > Cleric). Balance and victory via skill will be sparse.
3. I appreciate that you acknowledge the fault in arguing a personal opinion wrong - after all, I do not condemn those who wish combat was merely a left and right mouse-button click-fest. I simply prefer that it be different, just like I prefer more than eight skills - at one point I even reference myself "selfish." Part of what bothers me is how you word it. See, it is not about me seeing myself as better than others (as you seemingly received it), because every egocentric fool has a belief that they are a special snowflake. I am not so arrogant to think myself a king, but I want others to be able to acknowledge other individuals as a threat in battlegrounds and either focus fire or flee from them simply based on their name. I want to be able to distinguish great players and ask them for advice, ("Wow, how did you beat those three by yourself?! Teach me!") Reducing the ability to stand out easily reduces the ability to make a name. It is about creating a disparity so that there is means of personal progression toward excellence outside of gear. I know everyone being on the same foot is fun for casuals, but gives you nowhere to go if you have that competitive spirit. *frowns*
Naturally, I hope and pray that SOE has found some brilliant means of making the eight button thing work differently from Guild Wars 2. I really do. If they haven't, it will be the same zerg-fest skill-less pile of crap that adamant GW2 fans call "immensely skill based!" likely due to the inability to flourish in more challenging games beforehand. The reality is, no one knows anyone else's name in GW2 because it is impossible to distinguish yourself. There are no heroes and that notion of skillful elegance is dead. Most of that has to do with the lack of skill-based combat, the rest has to do with a bunch of various factors that are off-topic in this thread to which I shall not digress. For those two-button lovers, this game is probably not for them. For those twenty button lovers, this game is probably not for us either. But I really hope that they find a way to make it for us either with those eight buttons, or with revision of the concept. I spent five years hyping EverQuest Next to friends as the savior of old EverQuest, but that is not in the general state area of what I got. I just really hope that in some form or fashion, it appeals to me. Selfish, as that may be.
Always a pleasure.
Moba's have far less skills, and there is still a good deal of skill involved in that genre. You don't even get to choose your abilities! This is obviously far more complex, and more skill will be required.
Yes but this is not a MOBA, lots of skill is involved in table tennis as well but that does not mean everyone playing an mmo will be content to have characters only armed with paddles and balls. If mere functionality were the only argument we wouldnt be playing an mmo in the first place we would all just play shooters all the time. It is not just about functionality its about choices and matchups and expectations. An mmo is not a game people play to be just like everyone else. You cant just decide to change it to something that its not for the sake of easy coding, that would be like taking magic the gathering and deciding everyone only gets 30 total cards to choose from, if they wanted easy guesswork they would play 21.
there is a simple term for this "gamesytle", arcade gaming.
back in the 90s that setting was used for formula 1 racing games, so you didnt have to bother with all the complicated stuff (traction and whatnot).
for mmos... exactly the same. they try to sell their mmos to consoles now too.. unused marked and stuff, obviously for a reason - but when you think about money reasons are relative.
they simplify mmos, so they can get more users.
prob is, they forget we dont want it simple, or we would play simple games.
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"