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Originally posted by Amaranthar Originally posted by STYNKFYST I voted WTF difference does it make? Are you having fun? Then that's the point. Friggin buttons...friggin sheep
It's not the buttons. It's the options and choices.
Lots of options means strategy, variety, and much more fun.
I don't think the word strategy means what you think it means.
Originally posted by ice-vortex Originally posted by Amaranthar Originally posted by STYNKFYST I voted WTF difference does it make? Are you having fun? Then that's the point. Friggin buttons...friggin sheep
Then I have to say that you don't know strategy. Whenever you have options, you can use those options in strategic ways. The problem with MMOs over the last years has been restrictions and controls have robbed players of those strategic maneuvers. I hope this game can come up with a way to get past that, and the AI that will make NPCs react differently is a big start. But we need options on the other end, as well as NPCs using a plethora of choices too.
Once upon a time....
Originally posted by Zeroxin Originally posted by Morclave
I could easily present the counterargument that those approaching this system positively are making an erroneously optimistic judgment about the system before they, too, have ever played it. We only have what information they have given us and a humble request not to compare it to Guild Wars 2 (acknowledgement of informational similarity). I place a lot of hope in this new system, but there are logistical concerns based on Guild Wars 2's new system, which closely resembles all of the information SOE has released thus far. Voicing them are not a sin, nor is pretending that they do not exist, but pretending things are grand lacks the potential to be beneficial. I would strongly prefer that SOE come out and acknowledge the concerns, rather than go "well, we can do whatever we want everyone clearly loves whatever ideas we shit out." After all, I am the consumer. You may be, too.
But since you asked why I, personally, think it would be better to have more skills - even though I offer an example of this in my original post, which I request kindly that you read - I will gladly try to give you an additional reason. The original post is quoted just above, feel free to tinker with it at your leisure. I have a history of prowess within MMORPGs, notably in regards PvP. This changed for the first time when I played Guild Wars 2 and realized that I was just as effective not bothering to watch my opponent's attacks and focus on my own cooldowns and movements. Frankly, I was still grand, probably due to years of quick reacting - I topped the charts in every BG that I entered and was more than apt to handle 1v3s (I played an Engineer). When I handled a 1v3 on WoW, DAoC, or Tera, I always felt rather accomplished and proud of myself. In GW2 I did not, I felt like I mashed buttons better than they did and got lucky with motion. I fear that will spill over in EQN, and leave me unhappy - "selfish," I'm sure. But if I did not want something I enjoyed, I would not have looked so forward to EQN for the past four years, I would have sat on GW2 and said "it'll never be as good as this." I never had any clever tricks to pull, no brilliant spell reflections, no trinkets or gadgets that lined up perfectly. Frankly, I gave not a single fuck what skills my enemy was using because they largely all looked the same and did not really matter - my face-roll and move effectively strategy reigned supreme. I dueled, I battlegrounded, I even did ranked things from time to time. It was not slow paced and thought provoking or strategic, it was a rush of quick shooting and rolling around. May the best button masher and running win. I disliked that, a lot.
If you think that is great gameplay, I wholly support your right to an opinion. However, I respectfully disagree and think a small skill-set is overly limiting by comparison. I linked a favorite old video from earlier WoW, which demonstrates the power in having a large arsenal with which to handle everything uniquely at your fingertips (though, I feel the need to put forth the argument that as WoW progressed and more buttons were added, they reduced it to many fewer in an actual rotation, resulting in the skill-less button mashing seen today). With eight buttons, that video would not have been nearly as amusing and he would have more than likely perished numerous times, as would I were I in his shoes. Ultimately it boils down to having fewer ways to be good and fewer ways to make mistakes, placing great players and horrendous players on a relatively small disparity of skill. That, specifically, is what bothers me.
This is not about the ability to strike the one key when "1" pops up on screen. I have trained cats to do that. This is about hitting the "1" button when it would be intelligent to in the fight. Giving idiot Joe a multiple choice test where he has 8 choices versus giving him one with 20 enables him a significantly higher chance of hitting the right button because his finger is too fat for his keyboard than because he is intelligent and chose it because the guy in front was casting Ice Blast and he wanted to Spell Reflect it.
Onwards. Players will always min/max, I am not presenting an argument that that is a bad thing. After all, I certainly do it, but within the confines and restrictions that I am given. The problem that I have with it is more related to multi-classing than it is to the skill-set, hence why I drop off my argument there and use it primarily as an example. Naturally, if everyone can switch to the skillset that is optimal at the time, people will. EQN allows that, and it makes me not look forward to the 80,000 teleporting Ranger war that is to come. The reason I use this example is to relate to my above paragraph, in which more skills allow discrepancy between the better teleporting Ranger due to a higher level of being error-prone and a higher level of reactionary eloquence.
I disagree with your opinion that having the ability to counter everything is skillful. I think it is more skillful to be limited and still have the ability to counter everything.
1. To me, having more buttons is like having all the answers to a test. That's not a challenge, I already know what to use, I have all the tools at my disposal and there's nothing you can do that I don't have a counter for. The only problem now is, how fast can i press the button?
2. In games with limited skill-bars, the selection of skills is a meta-game unto itself. Because you don't have all the answers (or you can't actually fit all the answers into one bar) you have to actively try to create something that has most or one of the answers.
3. Yes, the learning curve for the average individual is definitely steeper with a 20-slot skill bar and therefore the gap between an experienced player and the average joe is a lot larger. But the only difference between a 20-slot skill bar and an 8 slot is how fast the average joe can learn what to use and when to use it and I'm guessing you want that gap to remain lengthy so that you can keep seeing yourself as better than others. And to be frank, I can't really argue against that. We all want to see ourselves as above other people in some shape or form.
4. I don't mind the 20 slot skill bar. I just don't think that your points towards their inclusion versus the 8 slot skill bar are anything but personal preference.
4. First and foremost, I appreciate the fact that you took the time to read my post. Thank you kindly. Not only that, but you are correct - I even state that it is personal preference and the preference of many, if not most, higher tier competitive players. Now if I may be as so bold to comment on each other paragraphs:
1. I appreciate the simile, but fail to see how it relates to button quantity. It is no different than having answers A-D vs having answers A-Q to choose from. There is a higher amount of error in guess-work than knowing what is best. The rapidity with which to press the correct button does not change with the amount of buttons - this would be more prevalent if the optimal button choice flashed for you on screen. (ex. "Press 7!" quickly pops up on screen, as opposed to reading an enemy player's incoming attack and having to know "He's about to throw a magic spell at me, therefore I should press 7."). Though I am glad you, specifically, already know what to use, for many others it is a mystery and that error prone nature enables the veteran to shine. This makes you a talented veteran over them. Knowing the right answer makes the extra buttons irrelevant, you are correct. But not knowing the right answer, which is what distinguishes a newcomer, or the answer being ambiguous and situational, is what enables one to fail or succeed.
If I may offer an example: it is like having one button that makes you immune to spells for a few seconds, and one that makes you immune to physical damage for a few seconds. Practicality dictates that one button will suffice by activating both (completely true, that is human efficiency) simultaneously. I would rather have my two options so that if fighting a hybrid or multiple people I can utilize more time immune with intelligent choice - or if they mirror me, they are more prone to error on blocking my outgoing damage.
There is nothing wrong with efficiency or personal choice, some people would prefer if they only had one button - auto-attack, registered on their left mouse button. They would be perfectly content and happy, it could be used to dig into the earth, kill low flying birds, hit players while running around, maybe it could trigger a short block effect so that people could skillfully use it to balance damage intake outtake. To some, having such limitation means that any victory is a remarkable display of skill. Me? I snicker.
2. I respectfully disagree. Because characters cannot change out their abilities during combat, this argument is largely in support of what one might call "foreknowledge" or "rock/paper/scissors style game-play." You can, at the very best, create a skill-set which answers only a small portion of a massive test. That will net you a high score on the Biology portion of the exam but get you eaten by Chemistry and Physics. Trying to have a skill dedicated to handling both enables you to choose a single button with which to flourish in combat based on the situation, which weakens rather than enhances. This is not combat as heavily based on skillful movement or intelligent reaction (Cleric > Rogue, Cleric < Rogue), but a combat based upon regard to foreknowledge of that with which you will be contending, since your chosen abilities will either do well or horrible against a specific enemy (Rogue > Cleric, Rogue > Cleric). Balance and victory via skill will be sparse.
3. I appreciate that you acknowledge the fault in arguing a personal opinion wrong - after all, I do not condemn those who wish combat was merely a left and right mouse-button click-fest. I simply prefer that it be different, just like I prefer more than eight skills - at one point I even reference myself "selfish." Part of what bothers me is how you word it. See, it is not about me seeing myself as better than others (as you seemingly received it), because every egocentric fool has a belief that they are a special snowflake. I am not so arrogant to think myself a king, but I want others to be able to acknowledge other individuals as a threat in battlegrounds and either focus fire or flee from them simply based on their name. I want to be able to distinguish great players and ask them for advice, ("Wow, how did you beat those three by yourself?! Teach me!") Reducing the ability to stand out easily reduces the ability to make a name. It is about creating a disparity so that there is means of personal progression toward excellence outside of gear. I know everyone being on the same foot is fun for casuals, but gives you nowhere to go if you have that competitive spirit. *frowns*
Naturally, I hope and pray that SOE has found some brilliant means of making the eight button thing work differently from Guild Wars 2. I really do. If they haven't, it will be the same zerg-fest skill-less pile of crap that adamant GW2 fans call "immensely skill based!" likely due to the inability to flourish in more challenging games beforehand. The reality is, no one knows anyone else's name in GW2 because it is impossible to distinguish yourself. There are no heroes and that notion of skillful elegance is dead. Most of that has to do with the lack of skill-based combat, the rest has to do with a bunch of various factors that are off-topic in this thread to which I shall not digress. For those two-button lovers, this game is probably not for them. For those twenty button lovers, this game is probably not for us either. But I really hope that they find a way to make it for us either with those eight buttons, or with revision of the concept. I spent five years hyping EverQuest Next to friends as the savior of old EverQuest, but that is not in the general state area of what I got. I just really hope that in some form or fashion, it appeals to me. Selfish, as that may be.
Always a pleasure.
Originally posted by korent1991 Originally posted by jesusjuice69 Originally posted by vorpal28 original EQ had limited slots to, it forced you to make choices and oh wow maybe have some skill at playing...
LAS has nothing to do with skill sir.
it has everything to do with skill... You're limited in your choice of skills thus you have less options to choose from when in combat so in order to get the most out of your skills you have to learn how to combine spells in different situations.
Moba's have far less skills, and there is still a good deal of skill involved in that genre. You don't even get to choose your abilities! This is obviously far more complex, and more skill will be required.
Originally posted by jesusjuice69 Originally posted by korent1991 Originally posted by jesusjuice69 Originally posted by vorpal28 original EQ had limited slots to, it forced you to make choices and oh wow maybe have some skill at playing...
Yes but this is not a MOBA, lots of skill is involved in table tennis as well but that does not mean everyone playing an mmo will be content to have characters only armed with paddles and balls. If mere functionality were the only argument we wouldnt be playing an mmo in the first place we would all just play shooters all the time. It is not just about functionality its about choices and matchups and expectations. An mmo is not a game people play to be just like everyone else. You cant just decide to change it to something that its not for the sake of easy coding, that would be like taking magic the gathering and deciding everyone only gets 30 total cards to choose from, if they wanted easy guesswork they would play 21.
there is a simple term for this "gamesytle", arcade gaming.
back in the 90s that setting was used for formula 1 racing games, so you didnt have to bother with all the complicated stuff (traction and whatnot).
for mmos... exactly the same. they try to sell their mmos to consoles now too.. unused marked and stuff, obviously for a reason - but when you think about money reasons are relative.
they simplify mmos, so they can get more users.
prob is, they forget we dont want it simple, or we would play simple games.
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
Originally posted by Nanfoodle Depends on how deep the skills are. If you get shallow skills like one that debuffs a NPC damage by 10% and that is all it does. I would like 20-30 hotbar slots. If skills have depth like a skill debuffs 10% dps, does 150 damage with a dot of 200 over 1 min and heals 5% of the damage back to you. Then 8 will do.
Exactly, 8 skills is more than enough so long as each one offers some sort of unique utility or purpose. I know it's not the best example, but look at League or DOTA2, each character only has four skills, but each skill has it's own use and you have to use each one carefully for specific situations. Honestly, I prefer this over having 20 skills when a bunch of them are just single target nukes with different animations/graphics.
I would argue that if you had 8 skills with short cooldowns and a short (or non-existant) global cooldown, then chances are you won't need more than 8 skills to succeed in a fight anyways. Why pollute the game with redundant or useless abilities?
Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.
While they didn't mention spellweaving during the reveal, it could be a crazy combo system. They did say combos would be part of combat during the class panel or one of the dev interviews.
Could be hit multiple skills in a row for different effects or tap same skill multiple times for different effects, who knows, but there will be something to add more excitement to just 12 abilities on screen at one time.
it really should be 16. 16 works perfectly with a controller (least on my concerns, but just sayin) .. and allows for way more than 8. 8 is just sounds like watching paint dry. 10 is already boring.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
Originally posted by azmundai it really should be 16. 16 works perfectly with a controller (least on my concerns, but just sayin) .. and allows for way more than 8. 8 is just sounds like watching paint dry. 10 is already boring.
Controller for an MMO? Why don't we just bury it already if we're going for a console/controller approach?
Originally posted by Master.RyuLimit the amount of hotkeys = More reliance on skill.
what genre are you playing? the last thing mmo devs care about is skill. skill != accessibility. controllers == accessibility. I hate the idea of controller based mmos .. but it's pretty obvious that this is a reason for the direction.
Originally posted by azmundai Originally posted by Master.Ryu Limit the amount of hotkeys = More reliance on skill.
When games feature things such as dodges and you're not just looking at your hotkey bar waiting for the next cooldown, it comes down to skill.
Originally posted by Master.Ryu Originally posted by azmundai Originally posted by Master.Ryu Limit the amount of hotkeys = More reliance on skill.
yea .. a button that gives you full immunity every 6 seconds or w/e it is (something a lot of console games have, ironically) == skill. /srsnod
You're dead right. There is no reason for 8, it's just some stupid design boner someone got at SOE. They are dooming this thing by making the character part a simple game. NWO tried this and it made for an extremely limited character interface that was boring fast.
If you post on the forums over at the site and you don't like the Fisher Price approach to the abilities, jump off their topic and post about this. They only have their topics up atm but you can get a side discussion going.
Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011