It's not like WoW got 12 million players in a year. I think WoW is down to 6-8 million players now, so they have lost some over about 2 years. You lose players faster than you gain them.
Originally posted by InFlamestwo It's not like WoW got 12 million players in a year. I think WoW is down to 6-8 million players now, so they have lost some over about 2 years. You lose players faster than you gain them.
You only lose players faster than you gain them when you're losing players faster than you're gaining them.
Originally posted by InFlamestwo It's not like WoW got 12 million players in a year. I think WoW is down to 6-8 million players now, so they have lost some over about 2 years. You lose players faster than you gain them.
You only lose players faster than you gain them when you're losing players faster than you're gaining them.
Do you have any proof that gw2 is gaining players faster than it is losing them?
Sales do not just mean box sales, sales include the cash shop. Do you have any proof that they actually grew? Any official numbers? I have proof that sales across the board are down 20% for anet.
Interesting.
So you're claiming that out of all the money they made, it was 100% cash shop the last quarter?
Sales do not just mean box sales, sales include the cash shop. Do you have any proof that they actually grew? Any official numbers? I have proof that sales across the board are down 20% for anet.
Interesting.
So you're claiming that out of all the money they made, it was 100% cash shop the last quarter?
They haven't sold a single box?
It must be fascinating to live in your world.
I actually never made any claim remotely like that... but I can see you enjoy misconstruing things... can you show me where I claimed all their sales were 100% cash shop? I'd much appreciate it, it would give you at least some sorta proof for something.
Do you have any proof that the game actually grew and added more players than it lost? Yes or No?
Originally posted by InFlamestwo It's not like WoW got 12 million players in a year. I think WoW is down to 6-8 million players now, so they have lost some over about 2 years. You lose players faster than you gain them.
You only lose players faster than you gain them when you're losing players faster than you're gaining them.
Do you have any proof that gw2 is gaining players faster than it is losing them?
Evidence, not proof. It's been clearly stated in this thread.
I actually never made any claim remotely like that... but I can see you enjoy misconstruing things...
Do you have any proof that the game actually grew and added more players than it lost? Yes or No?
There are TWO numbers here.
This is what you're confused about.
There is growth
And there is loss.
We have no figures on loss. We don't even have accurate numbers on growth. (Because 25 million isn't all box sales, it's a combination of box sales and cash shop)
We know there has been some growth (Because the game is making money, and presumably SOME of that profit is from box sales).
.... and we know there has been some loss (Through anecdotal evidence, if nothing else. People have said 'I quit the game', and let's just assume they're telling the truth)
NEither of us has accurate figures on either.
I'm not actually saying 'the game definitely grew in population', I'm only saying 'neither side can prove their case because the numbers are too vague'
I'm the one dealing in facts, because I am only going off of what is known.
You're dealing in conjecture. You are saying you are sure more people quit than joined, but you have no proof. Only guesswork.
The only thing you CAN prove is that they made 20% less money than they did last quarter, but because they have no subscription rate, that doesn't actually prove a decrease in population.
I actually never made any claim remotely like that... but I can see you enjoy misconstruing things...
Do you have any proof that the game actually grew and added more players than it lost? Yes or No?
There are TWO numbers here.
This is what you're confused about.
There is growth
And there is loss.
We have no figures on loss. We don't even have accurate numbers on growth. (Because 25 million isn't all box sales, it's a combination of box sales and cash shop)
We know there has been some growth (Because the game is making money, and presumably SOME of that profit is from box sales).
.... and we know there has been some loss (Through anecdotal evidence, if nothing else. People have said 'I quit the game', and let's just assume they're telling the truth)
NEither of us has accurate figures on either.
I'm not actually saying 'the game definitely grew in population', I'm only saying 'neither side can prove their case because the numbers are too vague'
I'm the one dealing in facts, because I am only going off of what is known.
You're dealing in conjecture. You are saying you are sure more people quit than joined, but you have no proof. Only guesswork.
The only thing you CAN prove is that they made 20% less money than they did last quarter, but because they have no subscription rate, that doesn't actually prove a decrease in population.
We don't know that there has been some growth, because you don't need to grow to generate revenue, hell you don't even need it to make a profit. So can you tell me if you have any proof that the game has grown (gained more players than it lost)?
Also can you go ahead and tell me where I claimed 100% of the sales were from cash shop... like you claimed I claimed? Since you also claim you deal in facts...
We don't know that there has been some growth, because you don't need to grow to generate revenue, hell you don't even need it to make a profit. So can you tell me if you have any proof that the game has grown (gained more players than it lost)?
Also can you go ahead and tell me where I claimed 100% of the sales were from cash shop... like you claimed I claimed?
The only way there could be 0 growth, would be if they sold 0 boxes.
So I reiterate.
You think they sold 0 boxes the last 3 months?
Growth and loss are two separate figures.
You can have your growth outpace your loss, or you can have your loss outpace your growth.
I think you're confusing growth as in 'had some sales' with growth as in 'growth is outpacing loss'
When I am talking growth, I am referring to the first. For you to claim there has been 0 growth (Of that sort) requires 0 box sales.
There has definitely been some growth (Unless you want to claim that 100% of the sales were from cash shop)
There has definitely been some loss (Because even the most avid GW2 fan would have a hard time believing that NOBODY has quit the game, or died, or anything. Though if that was true, I would think prescribing GW2 would be the hot new miracle cure!)
You cannot prove one outpaces the other. You can only guess.
I am dealing with facts. There is growth. There is loss.
You are dealing with opinion 'I think loss is outpacing growth'.
We don't know that there has been some growth, because you don't need to grow to generate revenue, hell you don't even need it to make a profit. So can you tell me if you have any proof that the game has grown (gained more players than it lost)?
Also can you go ahead and tell me where I claimed 100% of the sales were from cash shop... like you claimed I claimed?
The only way there could be 0 growth, would be if they sold 0 boxes.
So I reiterate.
You think they sold 0 boxes the last 3 months?
Growth and loss are two separate figures.
You can have your growth outpace your loss, or you can have your loss outpace your growth.
I think you're confusing growth as in 'had some sales' with growth as in 'growth is outpacing loss'
When I am talking growth, I am referring to the first. For you to claim there has been 0 growth (Of that sort) requires 0 box sales.
There has definitely been some growth (Unless you want to claim that 100% of the sales were from cash shop)
There has definitely been some loss (Because even the most avid GW2 fan would have a hard time believing that NOBODY has quit the game, or died, or anything. Though if that was true, I would think prescribing GW2 would be the hot new miracle cure!)
You cannot prove one outpaces the other. You can only guess.
I am dealing with facts. There is growth. There is loss.
You are dealing with opinion 'I think loss is outpacing growth'.
I don't think you understand what growth means in a business sense. Growth happens when you gained more business than you lost. It is not independent from loss.
Also can you go ahead and show me where I claimed 100% of sales are from the cash shop, since you accused me of making that claim?
We don't know that there has been some growth, because you don't need to grow to generate revenue, hell you don't even need it to make a profit. So can you tell me if you have any proof that the game has grown (gained more players than it lost)?
Also can you go ahead and tell me where I claimed 100% of the sales were from cash shop... like you claimed I claimed? Since you also claim you deal in facts...
I've presented the observed evidence that the population of the game is growing as a whole. You choose to either ignore or hand-wave the evidence away.
We don't know that there has been some growth, because you don't need to grow to generate revenue, hell you don't even need it to make a profit. So can you tell me if you have any proof that the game has grown (gained more players than it lost)?
Also can you go ahead and tell me where I claimed 100% of the sales were from cash shop... like you claimed I claimed? Since you also claim you deal in facts...
I've presented the observed evidence that the population of the game is growing as a whole. You choose to either ignore or hand-wave the evidence away.
You've presented interpretations of claims that have no legal constraints.
I've presented proof of things that would be illegal to misrepresent.
I don't think you understand what growth means in a business sense. Growth happens when you gained more business than you lost. It is not independent from loss.
Also can you go ahead and show me where I claimed 100% of sales are from the cash shop, since you accused me of making that claim?
Then, if you want to talk about growth in that sense.
The figure of '20% less profit than the quarter before' does not prove anything.
It only shows that there have been sales.
I didn't say you said 100% of sales were from cash shop, I'm saying that's the only way you could have 0 growth (Not taking into account loss, which we can't factor because neither of us know what it is) (and I was separating growth from loss because there are no figures to show players gained -minus players loss, so it wasn't useful to be talking about overall growth. None of us here can prove it either way).
My confusion is coming in because you are claiming 20% less sales = loss of players, when that isn't what it means at all. It COULD mean that, but there are no guarantees, only guesses on your part.
I don't think you understand what growth means in a business sense. Growth happens when you gained more business than you lost. It is not independent from loss.
Also can you go ahead and show me where I claimed 100% of sales are from the cash shop, since you accused me of making that claim?
Then, if you want to talk about growth in that sense.
The figure of '20% less profit than the quarter before' does not prove anything.
It only shows that there have been sales.
I didn't say you said 100% of sales were from cash shop, I'm saying that's the only way you could have 0 growth (Not taking into account loss, which we can't factor because neither of us know what it is) (and I was separating growth from loss because there are no figures to show players gained -minus players loss, so it wasn't useful to be talking about overall growth. None of us here can prove it either way).
My confusion is coming in because you are claiming 20% less sales = loss of players, when that isn't what it means at all. It COULD mean that, but there are no guarantees, only guesses on your part.
I can prove that sales have shrunk by 20%. That is indicative of population decline not increase.
Originally posted by Meowhead
Originally posted by caetftl
Sales do not just mean box sales, sales include the cash shop. Do you have any proof that they actually grew? Any official numbers? I have proof that sales across the board are down 20% for anet.
Interesting.
So you're claiming that out of all the money they made, it was 100% cash shop the last quarter?
They haven't sold a single box?
It must be fascinating to live in your world.
Can you please show me where i've claimed or indicated that the money they made was 100% from cash shop?
I can prove that sales have shrunk by 20%. That is indicative of population decline not increase.
No. It isn't.
That is indicative of a decline in the rate of population increase. :B
The question then becomes 'does the decline in the rate of population increase mean that the rate of population decrease is now higher'.
I don't know.
You don't know.
Arenanet knows, but they are coy and aren't going to tell us.
If 100,000 people buy a Honda Civic. Then next month, 80,000 people buy a Honda Civic.
180,000 people now own Honda Civics. This number is larger than 100,000. It is also a 20% decrease in sales a month later.
As you can see from this handy example, a 20% decrease in sales does not mean a population decline. It is a change in the rate of population increase.
In fact, it doesn't even necessarily mean that. We can ASSUME that, but, watch as I do some magic.
The game is 10% cheaper than it used to be.
If people are spending less in the cash shop over the past 3 months.... combined with the game being 10% cheaper... that could mean that there are in fact more box sales this quarter, and therefore a higher rate of population increase.
I find this unlikely, but it is =possible=, because we simply don't know. I am just going with the odds when I am assuming that part of the 20% loss in revenue is a decrease in box sales.
There are too many unknown variables though.
All we can safely say is that there has been a 20% reduction in gross sales since the last quarter. Indicating that there has been some sort of increase in the potential amount of GW2 players, with the actual amount of GW2 players an unknown quantity.
I've no idea how can someone claim from GW2 sales that GW2 is winning or losing players.
GW2 cash shop has no mandatory item that you have to buy monthly.
I've spent most of my money during the first month, when I bought character slots and bank tabs. Nothing else in the cash shop is in the same league of must have as these things, especially for a player like me that plays tons of alts.
So people that expect cash shop consumption to be constant and so an indicator of population are probably wrong.
Additionally gems can be bought and spent much later - I have 3000 gems, some bought with money, some with in game money and 400 gems were anet reward.
Currently playing: GW2 Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
A few weeks ago I went back to give GW2 another try and I started fresh.. The only time I saw people in the world was when certain events would activate and then everything was empty again. And this was the first 30 levels! I cant remember the server name. Fort Aspenwood maybe.
A few weeks ago I went back to give GW2 another try and I started fresh.. The only time I saw people in the world was when certain events would activate and then everything was empty again. And this was the first 30 levels! I cant remember the server name. Fort Aspenwood maybe.
You must have been very unlucky.
Look a 5 people party in the starter area.
That is generally dungeon party size, isn't it?
Currently playing: GW2 Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
A few weeks ago I went back to give GW2 another try and I started fresh.. The only time I saw people in the world was when certain events would activate and then everything was empty again. And this was the first 30 levels! I cant remember the server name. Fort Aspenwood maybe.
FA? FA is one of the more populated servers, so no idea what was going on there or even if that was the right server. Huge WvW contingent there as well.
A few weeks ago I went back to give GW2 another try and I started fresh.. The only time I saw people in the world was when certain events would activate and then everything was empty again. And this was the first 30 levels! I cant remember the server name. Fort Aspenwood maybe.
FA? FA is one of the more populated servers, so no idea what was going on there or even if that was the right server. Huge WvW contingent there as well.
A few weeks ago I went back to give GW2 another try and I started fresh.. The only time I saw people in the world was when certain events would activate and then everything was empty again. And this was the first 30 levels! I cant remember the server name. Fort Aspenwood maybe.
FA? FA is one of the more populated servers, so no idea what was going on there or even if that was the right server. Huge WvW contingent there as well.
I only said what I experienced. Nothing more.
Apparently experiences in GW2 that don't paint the game in a pretty light don't count... but ones that do are absolute truth.
A few weeks ago I went back to give GW2 another try and I started fresh.. The only time I saw people in the world was when certain events would activate and then everything was empty again. And this was the first 30 levels! I cant remember the server name. Fort Aspenwood maybe.
FA? FA is one of the more populated servers, so no idea what was going on there or even if that was the right server. Huge WvW contingent there as well.
I only said what I experienced. Nothing more.
Apparently experiences in GW2 that don't paint the game in a pretty light don't count... but ones that do are absolute truth.
So what is the point of the poster - whenever there was an event people were there.
Does the poster need cheerleaders to follow him while he level up his character?
And what is the point of expressions like "and then everything was empty again"?
It is a stupid hyperbole.
Everyone that plays the game knows you don't have people in your view 24/7. They also know that even in the most remote areas suddenly you have 4 or 5 people playing alongside you.
Everyone that played other games also know that when you are doing quests in those other games, most of the time you are solo and when you see other people you wish they weren't there tagging the mobs you need to complete your quest.
GW2 seems to be the only game that if you aren't surrounded by a mob 24/7 it is empty and if you are surrounded by a mob 24/7 "it is a boring zerg fest".
So when people make start making balanced posts instead of hyperbole their experiences will count.
Currently playing: GW2 Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
Hmm...really not sure how can to any1 appear population is still growing. For larger scale content is hard to find any1 around for some time. But is summer maybe this influences a lot. Have been playing 3 games alternating even on daily basis (doing this in summer for years, not sure why, it just suits me to play relaxed more games), swtor, wow and gw2. Game that has (at least on my pve server) at any time players around in any area is swtor, wow and gw2 much less.
Comments
You only lose players faster than you gain them when you're losing players faster than you're gaining them.
Oderint, dum metuant.
Do you have any proof that gw2 is gaining players faster than it is losing them?
Interesting.
So you're claiming that out of all the money they made, it was 100% cash shop the last quarter?
They haven't sold a single box?
It must be fascinating to live in your world.
I actually never made any claim remotely like that... but I can see you enjoy misconstruing things... can you show me where I claimed all their sales were 100% cash shop? I'd much appreciate it, it would give you at least some sorta proof for something.
Do you have any proof that the game actually grew and added more players than it lost? Yes or No?
Evidence, not proof. It's been clearly stated in this thread.
Leave "proof" to the mathematicians.
Oderint, dum metuant.
There are TWO numbers here.
This is what you're confused about.
There is growth
And there is loss.
We have no figures on loss. We don't even have accurate numbers on growth. (Because 25 million isn't all box sales, it's a combination of box sales and cash shop)
We know there has been some growth (Because the game is making money, and presumably SOME of that profit is from box sales).
.... and we know there has been some loss (Through anecdotal evidence, if nothing else. People have said 'I quit the game', and let's just assume they're telling the truth)
NEither of us has accurate figures on either.
I'm not actually saying 'the game definitely grew in population', I'm only saying 'neither side can prove their case because the numbers are too vague'
I'm the one dealing in facts, because I am only going off of what is known.
You're dealing in conjecture. You are saying you are sure more people quit than joined, but you have no proof. Only guesswork.
The only thing you CAN prove is that they made 20% less money than they did last quarter, but because they have no subscription rate, that doesn't actually prove a decrease in population.
We don't know that there has been some growth, because you don't need to grow to generate revenue, hell you don't even need it to make a profit. So can you tell me if you have any proof that the game has grown (gained more players than it lost)?
Also can you go ahead and tell me where I claimed 100% of the sales were from cash shop... like you claimed I claimed? Since you also claim you deal in facts...
The only way there could be 0 growth, would be if they sold 0 boxes.
So I reiterate.
You think they sold 0 boxes the last 3 months?
Growth and loss are two separate figures.
You can have your growth outpace your loss, or you can have your loss outpace your growth.
I think you're confusing growth as in 'had some sales' with growth as in 'growth is outpacing loss'
When I am talking growth, I am referring to the first. For you to claim there has been 0 growth (Of that sort) requires 0 box sales.
There has definitely been some growth (Unless you want to claim that 100% of the sales were from cash shop)
There has definitely been some loss (Because even the most avid GW2 fan would have a hard time believing that NOBODY has quit the game, or died, or anything. Though if that was true, I would think prescribing GW2 would be the hot new miracle cure!)
You cannot prove one outpaces the other. You can only guess.
I am dealing with facts. There is growth. There is loss.
You are dealing with opinion 'I think loss is outpacing growth'.
I don't think you understand what growth means in a business sense. Growth happens when you gained more business than you lost. It is not independent from loss.
Also can you go ahead and show me where I claimed 100% of sales are from the cash shop, since you accused me of making that claim?
I've presented the observed evidence that the population of the game is growing as a whole. You choose to either ignore or hand-wave the evidence away.
Oderint, dum metuant.
You've presented interpretations of claims that have no legal constraints.
I've presented proof of things that would be illegal to misrepresent.
Then, if you want to talk about growth in that sense.
The figure of '20% less profit than the quarter before' does not prove anything.
It only shows that there have been sales.
I didn't say you said 100% of sales were from cash shop, I'm saying that's the only way you could have 0 growth (Not taking into account loss, which we can't factor because neither of us know what it is) (and I was separating growth from loss because there are no figures to show players gained -minus players loss, so it wasn't useful to be talking about overall growth. None of us here can prove it either way).
My confusion is coming in because you are claiming 20% less sales = loss of players, when that isn't what it means at all. It COULD mean that, but there are no guarantees, only guesses on your part.
I can prove that sales have shrunk by 20%. That is indicative of population decline not increase.
Can you please show me where i've claimed or indicated that the money they made was 100% from cash shop?
How much clearer can it be that this is a line of complete troll crap?
There's no direct connection between box sales and player retention.
Oderint, dum metuant.
No. It isn't.
That is indicative of a decline in the rate of population increase. :B
The question then becomes 'does the decline in the rate of population increase mean that the rate of population decrease is now higher'.
I don't know.
You don't know.
Arenanet knows, but they are coy and aren't going to tell us.
If 100,000 people buy a Honda Civic. Then next month, 80,000 people buy a Honda Civic.
180,000 people now own Honda Civics. This number is larger than 100,000. It is also a 20% decrease in sales a month later.
As you can see from this handy example, a 20% decrease in sales does not mean a population decline. It is a change in the rate of population increase.
In fact, it doesn't even necessarily mean that. We can ASSUME that, but, watch as I do some magic.
The game is 10% cheaper than it used to be.
If people are spending less in the cash shop over the past 3 months.... combined with the game being 10% cheaper... that could mean that there are in fact more box sales this quarter, and therefore a higher rate of population increase.
I find this unlikely, but it is =possible=, because we simply don't know. I am just going with the odds when I am assuming that part of the 20% loss in revenue is a decrease in box sales.
There are too many unknown variables though.
All we can safely say is that there has been a 20% reduction in gross sales since the last quarter. Indicating that there has been some sort of increase in the potential amount of GW2 players, with the actual amount of GW2 players an unknown quantity.
I've no idea how can someone claim from GW2 sales that GW2 is winning or losing players.
GW2 cash shop has no mandatory item that you have to buy monthly.
I've spent most of my money during the first month, when I bought character slots and bank tabs. Nothing else in the cash shop is in the same league of must have as these things, especially for a player like me that plays tons of alts.
So people that expect cash shop consumption to be constant and so an indicator of population are probably wrong.
Additionally gems can be bought and spent much later - I have 3000 gems, some bought with money, some with in game money and 400 gems were anet reward.
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
A few weeks ago I went back to give GW2 another try and I started fresh.. The only time I saw people in the world was when certain events would activate and then everything was empty again. And this was the first 30 levels! I cant remember the server name. Fort Aspenwood maybe.
You must have been very unlucky.
Look a 5 people party in the starter area.
That is generally dungeon party size, isn't it?
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
FA? FA is one of the more populated servers, so no idea what was going on there or even if that was the right server. Huge WvW contingent there as well.
Oderint, dum metuant.
But we aren't just talking about box sales, we are talking about the demand of sales across the board... Sheesh... how much clearer can it be?
I only said what I experienced. Nothing more.
Apparently experiences in GW2 that don't paint the game in a pretty light don't count... but ones that do are absolute truth.
So what is the point of the poster - whenever there was an event people were there.
Does the poster need cheerleaders to follow him while he level up his character?
And what is the point of expressions like "and then everything was empty again"?
It is a stupid hyperbole.
Everyone that plays the game knows you don't have people in your view 24/7. They also know that even in the most remote areas suddenly you have 4 or 5 people playing alongside you.
Everyone that played other games also know that when you are doing quests in those other games, most of the time you are solo and when you see other people you wish they weren't there tagging the mobs you need to complete your quest.
GW2 seems to be the only game that if you aren't surrounded by a mob 24/7 it is empty and if you are surrounded by a mob 24/7 "it is a boring zerg fest".
So when people make start making balanced posts instead of hyperbole their experiences will count.
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders